Why are men of the Dinaric Highlands so tall?

[Angela]

I think you have to distinguish between potential height, which geneticists have traced to variations in autosomal dna, to expressed height, which can be affected by things like nutrition, hormones in food, the island effect, etc.

See: [h=1]GIANT study finds rare, but influential, genetic changes related to height[/h]
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/02/170201131513.htm

"[h=2]International study of more than 750,000 people probes deeper into height than ever before[/h]Date:February 1, 2017Source:Boston Children's HospitalSummary:In the largest, deepest search to date, scientists uncovered 83 new DNA changes that affect human height. These changes are uncommon or rare, but they have potent effects, with some of them adjusting height by more than 2 cm (almost 8/10 of an inch). The 700,000-plus-person study also found several genes pointing to previously unknown biological pathways involved in skeletal growth."

""While our last study identified common height-related changes in the genome, this time we went for low-frequency and rare changes that directly alter proteins and tend to have stronger effects," says Joel Hirschhorn, MD, PhD, of Boston Children's Hospital and the Broad Institute of MIT and Harvard, chair of the GIANT Consortium and co-senior investigator on the study together with researchers at the Montreal Heart Institute, Queen Mary University, the University of Exeter, UK, and nearly 280 other research groups. "


[FONT=&quot]"Using ExomeChip data from a total of 711,428 adults (an initial 460,000 people and about 250,000 more to validate the findings), the investigators identified 83 uncommon variants associated with adult height: 51 "low-frequency" variants (found in less than 5 percent of people) and 32 rare variants (found in less than 0.5 percent).[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]With these new findings, 27.4 percent of the heritability of height is now accounted for (up from 20 percent in earlier studies), with most heritability still explained by common variants."[/FONT]

 

[MOESAN]

Yes; genetic background (when I evocate "ethnic" it implies that too) and way of life (simply said; as always, nature and nurture);
add: a social/cultural selection (immediate) whatever the operatory mode can give a genetic selection (later generations).

 

[Tomenable]

Bosniaks are - together with Croats and perhaps Slovenes - one the most genetically Slavic populations in the Balkans. The least genetically Slavic populations in the Balkans are Albanians and Greeks, and among South Slavs - Bulgarians and Macedonians. Which probably explains why I get Bosniaks as one of good fits in Eurogenes K36 Oracle in 3-and-4-populations modes (and I am 187 cm tall). Below is a comparison of average Bosnian (unfortunately the sample size is rather small), my own, and average Polish (sample size = 90 and these are all Poles with either multi-regional or unknown origins, while Poles with confirmed origins froma specific region are included in separate reference samples).

Average Bosnian results / my results / average Polish results:

Population	"Average Bosnian"	My FTDNA format	My 23&Me format	"Average Polish"
East-Central Euro	16.19	22.87	22.86	23.58
Eastern Euro	10.49	13.99	13.9	16.16
North Sea	6.97	11.81	11.74	10.14
Central Euro	7.9	9.8	9.72	9.21
North Atlantic	3.96	8.14	8.22	7.05
Fennoscandian	6.19	9.32	9.32	11.52
French	4.06	4.93	5	3.82
East Balkan	7.57	8.54	8.5	6.21
Italian	13.22	5.96	5.85	3.42
Basque	1.28	0.91	0.98	1.25
West Med	2.18	1.2	1.14	0.21
Iberian	6.45	0.39	0.5	4.71
North Caucasian	3.4	2.15	2.27	0.81
Volga-Ural	0.74	0	0	1.15
East Med	3.81	0	0	0.09
Armenian	1.92	0	0	0.18
Near Eastern	1.56	0	0	0.06
West Caucasian	1.09	0	0	0.16
Arabian	0.7	0	0	0.01
South Central Asian	0.19	0	0	0.16
South Asian	0.11	0	0	0
North African	0.02	0	0	0.03
Amerindian	0	0	0	0.03
Oceanian	0	0	0	0.02
Northeast African	0	0	0	0.01
Omotic	0	0	0	0.01
West African	0	0	0	0.01

Edit:

Reference populations for each of K36 components are listed here:

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B9o3EYTdM8lQUlVTRmxQdGpZdW8/edit

 

[Tomenable]

Here are my 3-and-4-populations modes in K36 Oracle (which seem to prove that Bosniaks are very northern-shifted):

But I get Bosniaks only with Least-squares method, not with Gaussian method:


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% PL_Wielkopolska +25% Bosnian +25% PL_Podlasie_East_Mazovia @ 5,269895
2 50% PL_Wielkopolska +25% Bosnian +25% PL_Mazovia @ 5,442559
3 50% Pl_north +25% Bosnian +25% PL_Podlasie_East_Mazovia @ 5,453706
4 50% PL_Wielkopolska +25% Bosnian +25% PL_Wielkopolska @ 5,466321
5 50% PL_Wielkopolska +25% Bosnian +25% Pl_north @ 5,514156
6 50% PL_Wielkopolska +25% Croatian +25% PL_Podlasie_East_Mazovia @ 5,583176
7 50% PL_Wielkopolska +25% Slovenian +25% PL_Podlasie_East_Mazovia @ 5,608414
8 50% PL_Wielkopolska +25% Bosnian +25% PL_Sudovia @ 5,629758
9 50% PL_Wielkopolska +25% Serbian +25% PL_Podlasie_East_Mazovia @ 5,684756
10 50% PL_Wielkopolska +25% Bosnian +25% PL_average @ 5,709941
11 50% PL_Podlasie_East_Mazovia +25% Austria_Tyrol +25% PL_Wielkopolska @ 5,732172
12 50% PL_Wielkopolska +25% Hungary +25% PL_Podlasie_East_Mazovia @ 5,73712
13 50% PL_Podlasie_East_Mazovia +25% Austria_Tyrol +25% Pl_north @ 5,746932
14 50% PL_Wielkopolska +25% PL_SW_Malopolska +25% PL_Wielkopolska @ 5,763441
15 50% PL_Wielkopolska +25% Croatian +25% PL_Mazovia @ 5,76581
16 50% PL_Podlasie_East_Mazovia +25% Bosnian +25% Pl_north @ 5,770028
17 50% PL_Wielkopolska +25% Bosnian +25% PL_SW_Malopolska @ 5,770146
18 50% PL_Podlasie_East_Mazovia +25% Austria_Tyrol +25% PL_Podlasie_East_Mazovia @ 5,771641
19 50% PL_Wielkopolska +25% Bosnian +25% Pl_Kashubians @ 5,773989
20 50% PL_Wielkopolska +25% Slovenian +25% PL_Mazovia @ 5,786193
3312430 iterations.


Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Bosnian+PL_Wielkopolska+Pl_north+PL_Podlasie_East_Mazovia @ 5,199869
2 Bosnian+PL_Wielkopolska+PL_Wielkopolska+PL_Podlasie_East_Mazovia @ 5,269895
3 Bosnian+PL_Wielkopolska+PL_Wielkopolska+PL_Mazovia @ 5,442559
4 Bosnian+Pl_north+Pl_north+PL_Podlasie_East_Mazovia @ 5,453706
5 Bosnian+PL_Wielkopolska+PL_Wielkopolska+PL_Wielkopolska @ 5,466321
6 Bosnian+PL_Wielkopolska+PL_Mazovia+Pl_north @ 5,471274
7 Bosnian+PL_SW_Malopolska+Pl_north+PL_Podlasie_East_Mazovia @ 5,471318
8 Bosnian+PL_SW_Malopolska+PL_Wielkopolska+PL_Podlasie_East_Mazovia @ 5,503405
9 Bosnian+PL_Wielkopolska+PL_Wielkopolska+Pl_north @ 5,514156
10 Croatian+PL_Wielkopolska+PL_Wielkopolska+PL_Podlasie_East_Mazovia @ 5,583176
11 Croatian+PL_Wielkopolska+Pl_north+PL_Podlasie_East_Mazovia @ 5,598557
12 Slovenian+PL_Wielkopolska+PL_Wielkopolska+PL_Podlasie_East_Mazovia @ 5,608414
13 Slovenian+PL_Wielkopolska+Pl_north+PL_Podlasie_East_Mazovia @ 5,609044
14 Serbian+PL_Wielkopolska+Pl_north+PL_Podlasie_East_Mazovia @ 5,617713
15 Bosnian+PL_Sudovia+PL_Wielkopolska+PL_Wielkopolska @ 5,629758
16 Bosnian+PL_Sudovia+PL_Wielkopolska+Pl_north @ 5,637082
17 Austria_Tyrol+PL_Sudovia+PL_Wielkopolska+PL_Podlasie_East_Mazovia @ 5,651954
18 Bosnian+PL_Mazovia+Pl_north+PL_Podlasie_East_Mazovia @ 5,675043
19 Serbian+PL_Wielkopolska+PL_Wielkopolska+PL_Podlasie_East_Mazovia @ 5,684756
20 Bosnian+PL_Wielkopolska+PL_Wielkopolska+PL_average @ 5,709941
21 Bosnian+PL_Wielkopolska+Pl_north+PL_average @ 5,728856
22 Austria_Tyrol+PL_Wielkopolska+PL_Podlasie_East_Mazovia+PL_Podlasie_East_Mazovia @ 5,732172
23 Hungary+PL_Wielkopolska+PL_Wielkopolska+PL_Podlasie_East_Mazovia @ 5,73712
24 Austria_Tyrol+PL_Sudovia+Pl_north+PL_Podlasie_East_Mazovia @ 5,738439
25 Austria_Tyrol+Pl_north+PL_Podlasie_East_Mazovia+PL_Podlasie_East_Mazovia @ 5,746932
26 Bosnian+PL_SW_Malopolska+PL_Wielkopolska+PL_Mazovia @ 5,754482
27 Bosnian+PL_Wielkopolska+Pl_Kashubians+PL_Podlasie_East_Mazovia @ 5,75542
28 Croatian+PL_SW_Malopolska+PL_Wielkopolska+PL_Podlasie_East_Mazovia @ 5,756318
29 Bosnian+PL_Wielkopolska+PL_Mazovia+PL_Podlasie_East_Mazovia @ 5,757702
30 PL_SW_Malopolska+PL_Wielkopolska+PL_Wielkopolska+PL_Wielkopolska @ 5,763441
31 Croatian+PL_Wielkopolska+PL_Wielkopolska+PL_Mazovia @ 5,76581
32 Bosnian+Pl_north+PL_Podlasie_East_Mazovia+PL_Podlasie_East_Mazovia @ 5,770028
33 Bosnian+PL_SW_Malopolska+PL_Wielkopolska+PL_Wielkopolska @ 5,770146
34 Austria_Tyrol+PL_Podlasie_East_Mazovia+PL_Podlasie_East_Mazovia+PL_Podlasie_East_Mazovia @ 5,771641
35 Bosnian+Russian_Kursk+PL_Wielkopolska+Pl_north @ 5,772214
36 Bosnian+PL_Wielkopolska+PL_Wielkopolska+Pl_Kashubians @ 5,773989
37 Bosnian+Pl_Kashubians+Pl_north+PL_Podlasie_East_Mazovia @ 5,778351
38 Slovenian+PL_Wielkopolska+PL_Wielkopolska+PL_Mazovia @ 5,786193
39 PL_Wielkopolska+PL_Wielkopolska+PL_Mazovia+Slovak @ 5,786728
40 Bosnian+Pl_north+PL_Podlasie_East_Mazovia+PL_average @ 5,78673
38614087 iterations.

 

[Nik]

To answer the question directly, the men of the Dinaric Alps are so tall because the majority of the people that settled or fled to those areas were tall.

I believe they eventually created the so-called Dinaric race which is quite a tall race due to the fact that most of the "races" involved in its creation are tall as well, and I'm talking about CM, Atlanto-Med mostly.

I think it was also Coon who stated in his study that the Dinaric race is just a rugged Atlanto-Med with a deformed head, and obviously there's a lot of Upper Palaeolithic admixture to it which makes it taller and more robust than an Atlanto-Med.

The harsh weather condition had probably nothing to do with their height, as its rather negatively correlated to it. Children born in the urban areas are way taller than their parents born in the countryside, and similarly children born after 1991 (in the case of Albania) are way taller than their siblings born during communism. To go further, Albanian children born in EU countries/USA/Australia or migrated there since they were 3-5 are again taller than their siblings who spent more time in Albania (even 2 or 3 years more).

And not only they're taller, but the head is less deformed, ears appear smaller (lol but true), and the faces are fuller and healthier so u dont get to see the famous skinny face combined with the extreme inverted triangle head commonly attributed to Albanians, resulting in the expression "hmmm, you don't look Albanian" :embarassed:

 

[Angela]

There's virtually no UP ancestry left in Europeans; genetics has proved the old anthropologists wrong about that. So if anything it's Mesolithic Villabruna type ancestry, who were already shorter. More height does seem to correlate somewhat with more WHG/EHG, but it's not a perfect correlation.

I do think it's a founder effect of some kind.

 

[MOESAN]

I red amazing things sometime.
we need facts - NO, the high statures are not linked to altitude! - no, all Germans are not long legged, it depends on regions (Bavarians of today are rather short legged -
I think body answers after generations and even during beginning of life to natural selective pressure but as I've already said, the answer to environment is not always the same, according to genetic background: adaptation is not always a straight-on business -
concerning surveys about immigrated people in "more or evolved wealthy" countries (the contrary, even if m ore seldom, would deserve study they are often biased and often enough too they are subject to counter-surveys some years later, according to agendas or sociologic modes - the most of the time, questions of irrelevant samplings (regional origins in countires of origin, or social classes ans so on)...
staturelinked to struggle for life not always the good answer! But in societies with warlike worship and marked social classes high stature can be selected ( polygamy in favour of the supposed stronger ones... ?)

 

[MOESAN]

I think you have to distinguish between potential height, which geneticists have traced to variations in autosomal dna, to expressed height, which can be affected by things like nutrition, hormones in food, the island effect, etc.

See: GIANT study finds rare, but influential, genetic changes related to height


https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/02/170201131513.htm

"International study of more than 750,000 people probes deeper into height than ever before

Date:February 1, 2017Source:Boston Children's HospitalSummary:In the largest, deepest search to date, scientists uncovered 83 new DNA changes that affect human height. These changes are uncommon or rare, but they have potent effects, with some of them adjusting height by more than 2 cm (almost 8/10 of an inch). The 700,000-plus-person study also found several genes pointing to previously unknown biological pathways involved in skeletal growth."

""While our last study identified common height-related changes in the genome, this time we went for low-frequency and rare changes that directly alter proteins and tend to have stronger effects," says Joel Hirschhorn, MD, PhD, of Boston Children's Hospital and the Broad Institute of MIT and Harvard, chair of the GIANT Consortium and co-senior investigator on the study together with researchers at the Montreal Heart Institute, Queen Mary University, the University of Exeter, UK, and nearly 280 other research groups. "


"Using ExomeChip data from a total of 711,428 adults (an initial 460,000 people and about 250,000 more to validate the findings), the investigators identified 83 uncommon variants associated with adult height: 51 "low-frequency" variants (found in less than 5 percent of people) and 32 rare variants (found in less than 0.5 percent).
With these new findings, 27.4 percent of the heritability of height is now accounted for (up from 20 percent in earlier studies), with most heritability still explained by common variants."

Very interesting - but I don't understand how they can calculate so precisely the degree of "heritability" imputable to genes? It depends upon the strength of other non-genetic modifying factors, do it not? or is this heritability calculated by them when no environmental factors separate the members of the sample?

 

[Fire Haired14]

There's virtually no UP ancestry left in Europeans; genetics has proved the old anthropologists wrong about that. So if anything it's Mesolithic Villabruna type ancestry, who were already shorter.

Chances are Villabruna/WHG descends from groups of UP Europeans, hence ElMiron's close relationship to WHG.

 

[elghund]

There's virtually no UP ancestry left in Europeans; genetics has proved the old anthropologists wrong about that. So if anything it's Mesolithic Villabruna type ancestry, who were already shorter. More height does seem to correlate somewhat with more WHG/EHG, but it's not a perfect correlation.

I do think it's a founder effect of some kind.

The mtDNA haplogroups U5, U4, U2e and the y-DNA haplogroups I1, I2, and R1a seem to indicate otherwise, not to mention a lot of GedMatch calculators and the FTDNA Ancient Origin calculator. We're talking 10%-40% WHG+EHG in most European counties, near 50% in Lithuania. That doesn't constitute "virtually no UP ancestry."

 

[MOESAN]

difficult question: first Western UP (at least two big groups I think) maybe left few direct traces in us (rather than none) - but the Meso people if they inherited little from first western UP of Europe, inherited an heavy part from other close cousins UP people of more eastern parts (CE Europe and NW Asia): none of the pops so labelled was completely homogenous even if they showed surely some neat differences from more southern HG's pops (peri-Caucasus/Anatolia) -
I think auDNA is still a rough tool subjected to too much interpretations, spite interesting and surely on the way to improve by time -

 

[MOESAN]

concerning stature, aside the environmental immediate on life actions, the genetic part is undergoing selection of nature but also of social structures and males-females interactions - so modifying natural conditions can favour some diverse social organisations and males-females exchanges which can have input on males statures, and select different heredities - in more recent times we can think it occurred a levelling of social organisations in Europe, so the selected acquired genetic basis for stature did not change too much lately and the high and low statured pops in their "homes" kept on with their acquired panel of genes concerning stature: it seems proven by the long term states for stature in Europe: the hyerarchy of statures did not change dramatically since the 1850, and Dutch/SCandinavians and West Balkanic + Carpathians pops maintained their "leadership" on the matter spite some slight modifs for economic reasons - the hereditary aspect of today seems not having been modified too much since the LBA (curiously close enough to the state left by CWC and BB inputs for the most), only when true modern pops moves were organized which rarely concerned whole countries -

 

[Stratioti]

Myself 201cm , 106kg
Brother 194cm, 97kg (19y old)
Father 191cm, 110kg
Mother 175cm, 82kg
Grandfather 185cm
Grand grandfather 200cm (died 99y old)
Grandfathers brother 190 (Huge hands!, significantly taller right arm)
Uncles 180-192+cm
uncles kids(boys) 180-191cm+
uncles kids(females) 168-182cm

 

[Nik]

I have no idea about the UP genetically i was simply referring to the so-called UP in physical anthropology which is known as the Borreby-like in the Western Balkans, with its highest concentration in Montenegro. So its not the perfectly Dinaric people the tallest but those old Cromagnon admixed or whatever they decided to call them nowadays.

When we talk about the Dinaric Alps, seems that the I2, E-V13, J2b, I1 (and the respective mtdna) ancestors were originally quite tall, therefore the outcome of that admixture ended up being tall as well.

 

[Angela]

The mtDNA haplogroups U5, U4, U2e and the y-DNA haplogroups I1, I2, and R1a seem to indicate otherwise, not to mention a lot of GedMatch calculators and the FTDNA Ancient Origin calculator. We're talking 10%-40% WHG+EHG in most European counties, near 50% in Lithuania. That doesn't constitute "virtually no UP ancestry."

View attachment 8636

Cro-magnon is a term which was used to refer to the earliest Europeans, the Aurignacians and perhaps the Magdalenians.

The latest genetic studies indicate that only a small percentage of Aurignacian or Magdalenian ancestry survives in Europeans. They were replaced by Villabruna type people in the Mesolithic. The uniparental markers to which you refer are much more recent, from the Mesolithic. Where these people were before they spread all over Europe is still unclear.

You can start with this:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...-Age-Europe/page2?highlight=Aurignacian,y+dna

See also:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...rigininal-females?highlight=Aurignacian,y+dna

 

[Apsurdistan]

Maybe it's the cheese or the freakin sour cream, who cares.
Just accept the fact that we're the most handsome people on Earth, Scandinavians are 2nd cuz they're too pale and too blonde. And the Dutch have narrow shoulders.

Don't take the things i say too seriously

 

[Apsurdistan]

Myself 201cm , 106kg
Brother 194cm, 97kg (19y old)
Father 191cm, 110kg
Mother 175cm, 82kg
Grandfather 185cm
Grand grandfather 200cm (died 99y old)
Grandfathers brother 190 (Huge hands!, significantly taller right arm)
Uncles 180-192+cm
uncles kids(boys) 180-191cm+
uncles kids(females) 168-182cm

Albanians aren't as tall as Dinaric Slavs on average.

Speaking of big hands my grandma has really big hands that hit like sledgehammers... getting childhood flashbacks.

 

[Nik]

@Apsurdistan

What do you mean by Dinaric Slavs? 1) Slavs that live on the Dinaric highlands or 2) People of the Dinaric subrace?

If its 1), then compare only Albanians that live on the Dinaric highlands where you will find more or less the same height. Don't forget that u said Slavs therefore you're not only counting the Montenegrins and Herzegovinians, but also other areas with much lower averages.

If you meant 2), then again ur statement makes no sense because Dinarics are Dinarics no matter the nationality, and the tallest people in the Dinaric Alps aren't actually fully Dinaric but the admixed one which the anthropologists called Borreby-like. Plus, on average Albanians are more Dinaric than South Slavs.

 

[Apsurdistan]

Then Albanians must be Slavs too who speak a weird language.

 

[LABERIA]

Then Albanians must be Slavs too who speak a weird language.

This is what they teach you in Apsurdistan?