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Thread: European Jewish ancestry

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    European Jewish ancestry

    Are German Jews part European?just curious

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by tjlowery87 View Post
    Are German Jews part European?just curious
    Mathematically Yes. Their European part is bigger then other. I am talking about Ashkenazi people and Probably German Jews are one of the highest one who has European admixture between other Ashkenazi people.



    It says 57% and more then South Italian which is 52%


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    This thread is based on a very interesting study conducted by Xue and Carmi...
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...Ashkenazi-Jews

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    @Boreas
    The map shows that South Italians have 62% European, not 52%.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boreas View Post
    It says 57% and more then South Italian which is 52%


    South Italian is 62%, not 52%.

    That map is debatable and not so accurate, there are more sample for the same ethnicity, it exists another version of that map and it seems that who made that map has chosen the lower percentage for some ethnicities

    Another version of that map


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    Ok Guys, With looking from 10cm in front of monitor, I can say that you are right. It was my mistake.

    When you just focus on Italy and Balkans, I can swear that it is 5

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    I think it's best to only rely on the academic analyses, which postulate anywhere from 40-60% admixture from "European" sources. The complications arise because of the overlap between "Europeans" and some Near Easterners dating all the way back to the Neolithic.

    Davef linked to one good discussion here. There are others. Just use the search engine.

    As for the source of the admixture, no one really knows except that Eastern Europeans had a very small impact on the total Ashkenazi genome, somewhere quite a bit less than 10% (proved by IBD analysis).

    We don't even really know whether the bulk of the admixture took place in the Near East itself or in Europe.

    Another thing that we do know, despite all the hypothesis that the Ashkenazim formed as a result of mostly male Jews admixing with Italian women from somewhere in central/north Italy in the early Medieval period, there is no significant IBD sharing with the so far tested Italian reference populations.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I think it's best to only rely on the academic analyses, which postulate anywhere from 40-60% admixture from "European" sources. The complications arise because of the overlap between "Europeans" and some Near Easterners dating all the way back to the Neolithic.

    Davef linked to one good discussion here. There are others. Just use the search engine.

    As for the source of the admixture, no one really knows except that Eastern Europeans had a very small impact on the total Ashkenazi genome, somewhere quite a bit less than 10% (proved by IBD analysis).

    We don't even really know whether the bulk of the admixture took place in the Near East itself or in Europe.

    Another thing that we do know, despite all the hypothesis that the Ashkenazim formed as a result of mostly male Jews admixing with Italian women from somewhere in central/north Italy in the early Medieval period, there is no significant IBD sharing with the so far tested Italian reference populations.
    When I look at the numbers in HarappaWorld, this makes sense. This is the only place that makes perfect sense. South Italy isn't a bad fit either. So, they were heavily admixed in Italy and then slightly in Northern Europe.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    "European like" admixture components based on dodecad V3

    West European - Basque
    East European - Lithuanian, Estonian, Russian
    West Asian - Georgian (European related) and barely peaks outside anywhere of the Caucasus
    Mediterranean - A mix of Southern European and Levantine

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    When I look at the numbers in HarappaWorld, this makes sense. This is the only place that makes perfect sense. South Italy isn't a bad fit either. So, they were heavily admixed in Italy and then slightly in Northern Europe.
    I know it fits in a lot of ways, in terms of mtDna as well, but then why is there no IBD sharing? We find the IBD sharing with Poles/Russians, but not with any of the tested Italian groups, and it's not too far in the past for such an analysis. We now have samples from Toscana and from three places in northern Italy, and samples from Calabria, Apulia and Sicilia as well, and still nothing. I don't know where the group could be hiding.

    I don't know if a comparison has been made with Greek Islanders. Maybe they're a possibility.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I know it fits in a lot of ways, in terms of mtDna as well, but then why is there no IBD sharing? We find the IBD sharing with Poles/Russians, but not with any of the tested Italian groups, and it's not too far in the past for such an analysis. We now have samples from Toscana and from three places in northern Italy, and samples from Calabria, Apulia and Sicilia as well, and still nothing. I don't know where the group could be hiding.
    What if Italian mix is very ancient, not middle ages but Roman Empire around year 0. East European connection is much recent, last 500 till pretty much now.

    I don't know if a comparison has been made with Greek Islanders. Maybe they're a possibility.
    Greeks have Med admixture too low to pull "the trick". One thing though. We don't have ancient Jews genome yet to know how they looked like before mixing with Europeans. I'm assuming they not way different than modern Palestinians, who I'm assuming lived around the area for last 2,000 years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    What if Italian mix is very ancient, not middle ages but Roman Empire around year 0. East European connection is much recent, last 500 till pretty much now.

    Greeks have Med admixture too low to pull "the trick". One thing though. We don't have ancient Jews genome yet to know how they looked like before mixing with Europeans. I'm assuming they not way different than modern Palestinians, who I'm assuming lived around the area for last 2,000 years.
    Well, Palestinians have more SSA, but not way much more than, say, Samaritans. There have also been documented movements from Saudi Arabia north after the conquest. We really need contemporaneous dna.

    The problem with the hypothesis is that IBD can be picked up even back to 2,000 BC. (Ralph and Coop et al) I would think the researchers who checked for it with Italians would have also been able to find signs of it that far back (Behar etc.) or at least to the Roman Era. Fwiw, the admixture was supposed to have taken place around 6-700 AD with a know group of Jews then living in northern/central Italy.

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    Interesting topic. I found out recently from Ancestry DNA that I am indeed part Jewish. My ancestry DNA result revealed:

    - 62% Eastern European
    -30% Italian/Greek
    -4% European Jewish
    -4% Caucasian

    What I am wondering about this result is whether that 4% Jewish is due to similar genes being present in the Serbian gene pool to Jews or is it the result of having a recent Jewish ancestor (great great grandparent) considering that Askhenazi Jews are a very closed genetic community.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I know it fits in a lot of ways, in terms of mtDna as well, but then why is there no IBD sharing? We find the IBD sharing with Poles/Russians, but not with any of the tested Italian groups, and it's not too far in the past for such an analysis. We now have samples from Toscana and from three places in northern Italy, and samples from Calabria, Apulia and Sicilia as well, and still nothing. I don't know where the group could be hiding.

    I don't know if a comparison has been made with Greek Islanders. Maybe they're a possibility
    .
    When I mixed Greek Islanders and Mainlanders to get an average Greek, it looked the closest to South Italians.

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    Does high East Med in Eurogenes = Ashkenazi for a Northern Euro person?

    Hi Eupediers,
    I recently received my Ancestry DNA results, which included a low percentage (2%) European Jewish. I uploaded my results to GedMatch for more analysis, and learned that I have 6% East Med. My background is North Dutch (Netherlands) on my father's side and Danish on my mother's - they met in Canada, where I live. The East Med levels in those reference populations is typically very low, less than a percent. I have very little Red Sea and typical West Med for northern Europe, about 11%. My West Asia is a few percent lower than the usual for my known ethnic background. It seems to me that relatively recent Jewish ancestry of a single ancestor or two does make sense with my numbers. Any thoughts?

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    Quote Originally Posted by kirsten elise View Post
    Hi Eupediers,
    I recently received my Ancestry DNA results, which included a low percentage (2%) European Jewish. I uploaded my results to GedMatch for more analysis, and learned that I have 6% East Med. My background is North Dutch (Netherlands) on my father's side and Danish on my mother's - they met in Canada, where I live. The East Med levels in those reference populations is typically very low, less than a percent. I have very little Red Sea and typical West Med for northern Europe, about 11%. My West Asia is a few percent lower than the usual for my known ethnic background. It seems to me that relatively recent Jewish ancestry of a single ancestor or two does make sense with my numbers. Any thoughts?
    About 2% that's what's left from one ancestor who lived 5-6 generations ago. Welcome to Eupedia kristen.

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    Thanks for the answer and the welcome LeBroc! That's about right where I think it is on my tree - Dad's (Netherlands) side, female ancestor's sister with a Hebraic first name, and odd last name for the Netherlands. Seems like it all fits :)

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    Hi Kirsten, my situation is different because I naturally get a lot of near East and Levantine readings, but mine is an interesting story nevertheless. About a year ago I did my Ancestry DNA, and got the following back:

    Italy/Greece 74%
    Caucasus 17%
    Middle East 5%
    Nth Africa 2%
    European Jew 1%
    West Europe 1%
    Ireland <1%

    I didn't think too much about those 1% readings thinking they were too low to mean anything, but all my results on GEDMatch kept coming up with very high Ashkenazi results.

    A bloke on GEDMatch who focuses on Ashkenazi data took my results and ran them against Ashkenazi data he has, and he returned matches which showed I did have Jewish ancestry from the past 500 years or so, so it looks like that 1% Ancestry result may have meant something afterall.

    Interestingly, Sicily did have a relatively large Jewish population for at least 1,500 years (in the order of 5% to 8%). Many were expelled in 1493 when the Spanish Crown expelled Jews from their territories. An unknown number would have stayed on the condition that they converted to Christianity.
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    Interesting Joey...my parents have agreed to get tested so I'm hoping for some more insight from their results.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kirsten elise View Post
    Hi Eupediers,
    I recently received my Ancestry DNA results, which included a low percentage (2%) European Jewish. I uploaded my results to GedMatch for more analysis, and learned that I have 6% East Med. My background is North Dutch (Netherlands) on my father's side and Danish on my mother's - they met in Canada, where I live. The East Med levels in those reference populations is typically very low, less than a percent. I have very little Red Sea and typical West Med for northern Europe, about 11%. My West Asia is a few percent lower than the usual for my known ethnic background. It seems to me that relatively recent Jewish ancestry of a single ancestor or two does make sense with my numbers. Any thoughts?
    That is interesting that you discovered you have Jewish heritage. I have a good friend who lives in Boston who recently discovered he was Jewish. He had no idea and originally thought he was Italian from Tuscany. He even has an Italian name Giovanni. (his last name is removed, out of respect for him. But is also Italian. Interesting, right?)

    I've met a lot of Jewish people. Many of them have stayed good friends.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I think it's best to only rely on the academic analyses, which postulate anywhere from 40-60% admixture from "European" sources. The complications arise because of the overlap between "Europeans" and some Near Easterners dating all the way back to the Neolithic.

    Davef linked to one good discussion here. There are others. Just use the search engine.

    As for the source of the admixture, no one really knows except that Eastern Europeans had a very small impact on the total Ashkenazi genome, somewhere quite a bit less than 10% (proved by IBD analysis).

    We don't even really know whether the bulk of the admixture took place in the Near East itself or in Europe.

    Another thing that we do know, despite all the hypothesis that the Ashkenazim formed as a result of mostly male Jews admixing with Italian women from somewhere in central/north Italy in the early Medieval period, there is no significant IBD sharing with the so far tested Italian reference populations.
    I have read that most modern Jews descend from only 3 or 4 mothers. And about 300 people.

    Want to know something even more interesting? I have heard from a Jewish friend of mine; that Jewish culture is Matriarchal and that it is the women who decide who is Jewish or not. For instance, if your dad is not a Jew; but your mother is, you are automatically Jewish. (at least, culturally). But if your mother is not Jewish but your dad is a Jew, you are not considered a Jew. (Unless a Jewish woman - not a man - decides to qualify you for a Bar/Bat Mitzvah. Not sure if it is true. But I found this information quite interesting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Redmayne View Post
    That is interesting that you discovered you have Jewish heritage. I have a good friend who lives in Boston who recently discovered he was Jewish. He had no idea and originally thought he was Italian from Tuscany. He even has an Italian name Giovanni. (his last name is removed, out of respect for him. But is also Italian. Interesting, right?)

    I've met a lot of Jewish people. Many of them have stayed good friends.
    Yes, well, if he based that on nonsense heard on the internet or something bogus like Eurogenes J Test, it's absolutely not reliable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Yes, well, if he based that on nonsense heard on the internet or something bogus like Eurogenes J Test, it's absolutely not reliable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Yes, well, if he based that on nonsense heard on the internet or something bogus like Eurogenes J Test, it's absolutely not reliable.
    He is Jewish. He was raised growing up to believe he was ethnic Italian. He also claimed Greek and English ancestry. (according to him) He was brought up believing he was Italian. It was only two years ago he discovered he was actually a Jew. He is almost 37 years old. But he passes himself off as Italian and even carries Italian flags.

    He never had a Bar Mitzvah and must be non-practicing. But yes he is a Jew. He told me he did some digging and researched his origins; and found out that he was Jewish from Italy.

    He is a hilarious man. Especially his Boston accent. He does not practice Judaism. He claims he is an Agnostic. I'll try to get a good picture of him. He is currently trying to move out of Florida for Irma. He lives in Florida now; these days. Looks like the traffic is terrible there. He posts videos on YouTube.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joey D View Post
    Interestingly, Sicily did have a relatively large Jewish population for at least 1,500 years (in the order of 5% to 8%). Many were expelled in 1493 when the Spanish Crown expelled Jews from their territories. An unknown number would have stayed on the condition that they converted to Christianity.
    According to Shlomo Simonsohn the Jews in Sicily before the expulsion were 25.000. They were from 3 to 5% according to Italian researchers like Calimani. Most of the studies have calculated around 9000 "marranos" who remained as converted.
    Sicilians and mainlander Southern Italian phenotype galleries.

    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/1111/Re-Groups-of-Sicilians
    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/375/Southern-italians-how-we-really-look

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