European Jewish ancestry

[tjlowery87]

Are German Jews part European?just curious

 

[Boreas]

Are German Jews part European?just curious

Mathematically Yes. Their European part is bigger then other. I am talking about Ashkenazi people and Probably German Jews are one of the highest one who has European admixture between other Ashkenazi people.

It says 57% and more then South Italian which is 52%

 

[davef]

This thread is based on a very interesting study conducted by Xue and Carmi...
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...ace-of-European-Gene-Flow-into-Ashkenazi-Jews

 

[Vallicanus]

@Boreas
The map shows that South Italians have 62% European, not 52%.

 

[binx]

It says 57% and more then South Italian which is 52%

South Italian is 62%, not 52%.

That map is debatable and not so accurate, there are more sample for the same ethnicity, it exists another version of that map and it seems that who made that map has chosen the lower percentage for some ethnicities

Another version of that map

 

[Boreas]

Ok Guys, With looking from 10cm in front of monitor, I can say that you are right. It was my mistake. :ashamed2:

When you just focus on Italy and Balkans, I can swear that it is 5 :grin:

 

[Angela]

I think it's best to only rely on the academic analyses, which postulate anywhere from 40-60% admixture from "European" sources. The complications arise because of the overlap between "Europeans" and some Near Easterners dating all the way back to the Neolithic.

Davef linked to one good discussion here. There are others. Just use the search engine.

As for the source of the admixture, no one really knows except that Eastern Europeans had a very small impact on the total Ashkenazi genome, somewhere quite a bit less than 10% (proved by IBD analysis).

We don't even really know whether the bulk of the admixture took place in the Near East itself or in Europe.

Another thing that we do know, despite all the hypothesis that the Ashkenazim formed as a result of mostly male Jews admixing with Italian women from somewhere in central/north Italy in the early Medieval period, there is no significant IBD sharing with the so far tested Italian reference populations.

 

[LeBrok]

I think it's best to only rely on the academic analyses, which postulate anywhere from 40-60% admixture from "European" sources. The complications arise because of the overlap between "Europeans" and some Near Easterners dating all the way back to the Neolithic.

Davef linked to one good discussion here. There are others. Just use the search engine.

As for the source of the admixture, no one really knows except that Eastern Europeans had a very small impact on the total Ashkenazi genome, somewhere quite a bit less than 10% (proved by IBD analysis).

We don't even really know whether the bulk of the admixture took place in the Near East itself or in Europe.

Another thing that we do know, despite all the hypothesis that the Ashkenazim formed as a result of mostly male Jews admixing with Italian women from somewhere in central/north Italy in the early Medieval period, there is no significant IBD sharing with the so far tested Italian reference populations.

When I look at the numbers in HarappaWorld, this makes sense. This is the only place that makes perfect sense. South Italy isn't a bad fit either. So, they were heavily admixed in Italy and then slightly in Northern Europe.

 

[Blanco]

"European like" admixture components based on dodecad V3

West European - Basque
East European - Lithuanian, Estonian, Russian
West Asian - Georgian (European related) and barely peaks outside anywhere of the Caucasus
Mediterranean - A mix of Southern European and Levantine

 

[Angela]

When I look at the numbers in HarappaWorld, this makes sense. This is the only place that makes perfect sense. South Italy isn't a bad fit either. So, they were heavily admixed in Italy and then slightly in Northern Europe.

I know it fits in a lot of ways, in terms of mtDna as well, but then why is there no IBD sharing? We find the IBD sharing with Poles/Russians, but not with any of the tested Italian groups, and it's not too far in the past for such an analysis. We now have samples from Toscana and from three places in northern Italy, and samples from Calabria, Apulia and Sicilia as well, and still nothing. I don't know where the group could be hiding.

I don't know if a comparison has been made with Greek Islanders. Maybe they're a possibility.

 

[LeBrok]

I know it fits in a lot of ways, in terms of mtDna as well, but then why is there no IBD sharing? We find the IBD sharing with Poles/Russians, but not with any of the tested Italian groups, and it's not too far in the past for such an analysis. We now have samples from Toscana and from three places in northern Italy, and samples from Calabria, Apulia and Sicilia as well, and still nothing. I don't know where the group could be hiding.

What if Italian mix is very ancient, not middle ages but Roman Empire around year 0. East European connection is much recent, last 500 till pretty much now.

I don't know if a comparison has been made with Greek Islanders. Maybe they're a possibility.

Greeks have Med admixture too low to pull "the trick". One thing though. We don't have ancient Jews genome yet to know how they looked like before mixing with Europeans. I'm assuming they not way different than modern Palestinians, who I'm assuming lived around the area for last 2,000 years.

 

[Angela]

What if Italian mix is very ancient, not middle ages but Roman Empire around year 0. East European connection is much recent, last 500 till pretty much now.

Greeks have Med admixture too low to pull "the trick". One thing though. We don't have ancient Jews genome yet to know how they looked like before mixing with Europeans. I'm assuming they not way different than modern Palestinians, who I'm assuming lived around the area for last 2,000 years.

Well, Palestinians have more SSA, but not way much more than, say, Samaritans. There have also been documented movements from Saudi Arabia north after the conquest. We really need contemporaneous dna.

The problem with the hypothesis is that IBD can be picked up even back to 2,000 BC. (Ralph and Coop et al) I would think the researchers who checked for it with Italians would have also been able to find signs of it that far back (Behar etc.) or at least to the Roman Era. Fwiw, the admixture was supposed to have taken place around 6-700 AD with a know group of Jews then living in northern/central Italy.

 

[stoningbull54]

Interesting topic. I found out recently from Ancestry DNA that I am indeed part Jewish. My ancestry DNA result revealed:

- 62% Eastern European
-30% Italian/Greek
-4% European Jewish
-4% Caucasian

What I am wondering about this result is whether that 4% Jewish is due to similar genes being present in the Serbian gene pool to Jews or is it the result of having a recent Jewish ancestor (great great grandparent) considering that Askhenazi Jews are a very closed genetic community.

 

[LeBrok]

I know it fits in a lot of ways, in terms of mtDna as well, but then why is there no IBD sharing? We find the IBD sharing with Poles/Russians, but not with any of the tested Italian groups, and it's not too far in the past for such an analysis. We now have samples from Toscana and from three places in northern Italy, and samples from Calabria, Apulia and Sicilia as well, and still nothing. I don't know where the group could be hiding.

I don't know if a comparison has been made with Greek Islanders. Maybe they're a possibility.

When I mixed Greek Islanders and Mainlanders to get an average Greek, it looked the closest to South Italians.

 

[kirsten elise]

Does high East Med in Eurogenes = Ashkenazi for a Northern Euro person?

Hi Eupediers,
I recently received my Ancestry DNA results, which included a low percentage (2%) European Jewish. I uploaded my results to GedMatch for more analysis, and learned that I have 6% East Med. My background is North Dutch (Netherlands) on my father's side and Danish on my mother's - they met in Canada, where I live. The East Med levels in those reference populations is typically very low, less than a percent. I have very little Red Sea and typical West Med for northern Europe, about 11%. My West Asia is a few percent lower than the usual for my known ethnic background. It seems to me that relatively recent Jewish ancestry of a single ancestor or two does make sense with my numbers. Any thoughts?

 

[LeBrok]

Hi Eupediers,
I recently received my Ancestry DNA results, which included a low percentage (2%) European Jewish. I uploaded my results to GedMatch for more analysis, and learned that I have 6% East Med. My background is North Dutch (Netherlands) on my father's side and Danish on my mother's - they met in Canada, where I live. The East Med levels in those reference populations is typically very low, less than a percent. I have very little Red Sea and typical West Med for northern Europe, about 11%. My West Asia is a few percent lower than the usual for my known ethnic background. It seems to me that relatively recent Jewish ancestry of a single ancestor or two does make sense with my numbers. Any thoughts?

About 2% that's what's left from one ancestor who lived 5-6 generations ago. Welcome to Eupedia kristen.

 

[kirsten elise]

Thanks for the answer and the welcome LeBroc! That's about right where I think it is on my tree - Dad's (Netherlands) side, female ancestor's sister with a Hebraic first name, and odd last name for the Netherlands. Seems like it all fits

 

[Joey D]

Hi Kirsten, my situation is different because I naturally get a lot of near East and Levantine readings, but mine is an interesting story nevertheless. About a year ago I did my Ancestry DNA, and got the following back:

Italy/Greece 74%
Caucasus 17%
Middle East 5%
Nth Africa 2%
European Jew 1%
West Europe 1%
Ireland <1%

I didn't think too much about those 1% readings thinking they were too low to mean anything, but all my results on GEDMatch kept coming up with very high Ashkenazi results.

A bloke on GEDMatch who focuses on Ashkenazi data took my results and ran them against Ashkenazi data he has, and he returned matches which showed I did have Jewish ancestry from the past 500 years or so, so it looks like that 1% Ancestry result may have meant something afterall.

Interestingly, Sicily did have a relatively large Jewish population for at least 1,500 years (in the order of 5% to 8%). Many were expelled in 1493 when the Spanish Crown expelled Jews from their territories. An unknown number would have stayed on the condition that they converted to Christianity.

 

[kirsten elise]

Interesting Joey...my parents have agreed to get tested so I'm hoping for some more insight from their results.

 

[Redmayne]

Hi Eupediers,
I recently received my Ancestry DNA results, which included a low percentage (2%) European Jewish. I uploaded my results to GedMatch for more analysis, and learned that I have 6% East Med. My background is North Dutch (Netherlands) on my father's side and Danish on my mother's - they met in Canada, where I live. The East Med levels in those reference populations is typically very low, less than a percent. I have very little Red Sea and typical West Med for northern Europe, about 11%. My West Asia is a few percent lower than the usual for my known ethnic background. It seems to me that relatively recent Jewish ancestry of a single ancestor or two does make sense with my numbers. Any thoughts?

That is interesting that you discovered you have Jewish heritage. I have a good friend who lives in Boston who recently discovered he was Jewish. He had no idea and originally thought he was Italian from Tuscany. He even has an Italian name Giovanni. (his last name is removed, out of respect for him. But is also Italian. Interesting, right?)

I've met a lot of Jewish people. Many of them have stayed good friends.