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Thread: (!) Cephalic Index vs. Y-haplogroups in Europe

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    (!) Cephalic Index vs. Y-haplogroups in Europe

    Hello everybody,

    Is anybody familiar with any study on the relationship of the Cephalic Index vs. Y-haplogroups in Europe?

    Thank you.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    I think it will be a waste of time to study such a relationship unless u focus on a single region of a country where Y haplogroups could be correlated to the migration of a group from another area and so on. Take a look at R1b for instance, its linked to brachycephaly in Anatolia and Balkans, while its farther branches in Scotland and Ireland or Iberia are dolichocephals. I think mtdna is a better candidate for the cephalic index than ydna.

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    The cephalic index could vary from brachy to dolicho and vice-versa over time. It was studied already in the mid XX-th century and from that point the cephalic index was dropped out from most of the study fields. So, yes, don't waste your time with that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik View Post
    ... I think mtdna is a better candidate for the cephalic index than ydna.
    Thank you.
    Would you be kind to refer to any study you are aware of?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Valerius View Post
    The cephalic index could vary from brachy to dolicho and vice-versa over time. It was studied already in the mid XX-th century and from that point the cephalic index was dropped out from most of the study fields. So, yes, don't waste your time with that.
    Thank you.
    Would you be kind to refer to any such studies?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Valerius View Post
    The cephalic index could vary from brachy to dolicho and vice-versa over time. It was studied already in the mid XX-th century and from that point the cephalic index was dropped out from most of the study fields. So, yes, don't waste your time with that.
    very simplistic answer for a genetic trait: don't mistake long term collective variations of diverse origins (often cultural, environmental) and genetic basis of individual CI differences - that said, it's evident Y-HG's don't play a big role in this (as in other genetic traits), here I do the same answer as others forumers, it is not very new -
    I wait for true Albanians with a mean CI of 72 as among 1930's Pathans, even now in the 2010's spite the dolichocephalicizing trend -

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    Quote Originally Posted by castelleone View Post
    Thank you.
    Would you be kind to refer to any such studies?
    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    very simplistic answer for a genetic trait: don't mistake long term collective variations of diverse origins (often cultural, environmental) and genetic basis of individual CI differences - that said, it's evident Y-HG's don't play a big role in this (as in other genetic traits), here I do the same answer as others forumers, it is not very new -
    I wait for true Albanians with a mean CI of 72 as among 1930's Pathans, even now in the 2010's spite the dolichocephalicizing trend -
    There were several studies in the past from which I can recall the study of Franz Boas on Jewish emigrants in America that observed how there was a complete reverse in the cephalic index of the generation born on American soil. Also, there's another study on Czech bone material which states that the medieval Czechs were dolichocephalic and gradually unto XIX century they went through brachycephalization that characterize them now. Another or maybe the same study, stated that the so-called Baltic phenotype was a reduced form of a Nordic prototype, (i.e. from dolicho to brachy). Furthermore there's some information about the brachy processes that happen when a population is living in mountainous area for long time. Also, you can see how the PIE Kurgan people were dolichocephalic cro-magnids and now this type and features almost don't exist.
    So, I am saying that the cephalic index is not a constant and I don't think it correlates well with anything.

    MOESAN, what are you implying? I agree the CI does not correlate with Y-dna and it is something connected to many different things.

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    I found this archived thread:
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/archive...p/t-27058.html

    Is anybody aware of anything new?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    I wait for true Albanians with a mean CI of 72 as among 1930's Pathans, even now in the 2010's spite the dolichocephalicizing trend -
    Well 72 is too extreme but better nutrition and no cradling for babies did reduce the extreme brachycephaly among Tosk Albanians. But you're right that even after 100 years we can probably see a maximum of 3-4 decrease in CI, not a shift from brachy to dolicho.

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    I'm more interested in facial index. I've noticed that Haplogroup J corresponds to higher facial index in Asia for one thing.

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    From my observation south,east Europeans tend to have more broad brachy heads and faces than north, west Europeans. I even mentioned this to my mom once, and she said maybe they sleep more on their side.

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    IMO there is no relation whatsoever between cephalic index and Y-DNA. Any correlation would be fortuitous. The best proof is that Swiss and North Italians have mostly brachycephalic, while Spanish, British and Irish people are more dolicocephalic, despite both having high percentages of R1b. Likewise, most Slavs are brachycephalic, but Norwegians, who also have high levels of R1a, are dolicocephalic.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apsurdistan View Post
    From my observation south,east Europeans tend to have more broad brachy heads and faces than north, west Europeans. I even mentioned this to my mom once, and she said maybe they sleep more on their side.
    I agree with east vs west, but I've seen the opposite in north vs south. I think of long, narrow faces as typical of the Mediterranean more than Northern Europe. Spaniards and Italians seem to typify this. Here in the Balkans in Southeastern Europe South Slavs have this facial type combined with a brachycephalic head ("Dinaric"-type craniofacial profile).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Likewise, most Slavs are brachycephalic, but Norwegians, who also have high levels of R1a, are dolicocephalic.
    The region in Norway where R1a is highest is brachycephalic, which was observed by early anthropologists.

    Cephalic index in France differs from village to village, so we don't know whether North Italians who are R1b lean brachycephalic or dolicocephalic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    IMO there is no relation whatsoever between cephalic index and Y-DNA. Any correlation would be fortuitous. The best proof is that Swiss and North Italians have mostly brachycephalic, while Spanish, British and Irish people are more dolicocephalic, despite both having high percentages of R1b. Likewise, most Slavs are brachycephalic, but Norwegians, who also have high levels of R1a, are dolicocephalic.
    Thank you.
    I know the thread specifically targets at Y-DNA in Europe, but how about this relation occuring in other regions?

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    in the historical context, males who succeeded in conquering people often took concubines and multiple wives from the conquered or tributary people, resulting overtime, in mixed phenotypes. A perfect example is the Yamna culture which had more than 90% of its males belonging to haplogroup R1b. These then should have been predominantly red-haired but because of the high incidence of foreign mtDNA belonging to NE. Caucasian/Iranian Plateau people as well as European hunter-gatherer lines, the population ended up having dark hair in most cases. I suppose same thing goes for the cephalic index.
    One thing I a having a hard time with understanding this whole Haplogroup I2 with its variants I2a1 an I2a2 because the names were changed so many times.
    Apparently, I2a2 is bracycephalic originally and is most likely the old Borreby type Coon talked about. As far as the Balkans and Sardinia however, I am confused as they seem to represent a similar type but the Balkans are brachycephalic while Sardinia I exactly the opposite. Any thoughts?

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    what about claims of an increase in dolicho and mesocephalic trends in the Balkans and in German Saxony? Are these correct?

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    I think that skull shape is determined mostly by autosomal genes not haplogroup, nutrition and other external factors could also play a role

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    I looked up for CI in web yet to my surprise the data was very old and there weren't no new maps, and if regions like Nordica is so mix in ydna then why data shows only doliocephalic and other regions too are titled certain CI as if they are completely homogenous which I don't think they are! and is there link between height and CI?

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    Oh I just saw maps of CI in Europe and the lowest rates in Europe are above 75(Iberia, UK) so they fall under Mesocephalic then why people term them Doliocephalic?

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    Quote Originally Posted by castelleone View Post
    Hello everybody,

    Is anybody familiar with any study on the relationship of the Cephalic Index vs. Y-haplogroups in Europe?

    Thank you.
    There should be no relations of y-dna to cephalic index. It makes no sense, as that is not how those things work.
    There might be relation to auDNA haplogroups, though, but that is not what you are looking for... ;)

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    The y-chromosome carries important genes for brain development and Y-DNA haplogroups are strongly correlated with intelligence.

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