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Thread: David Reich speech on steppe migrations-April 29, 2017

  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by A. Papadimitriou View Post
    I won't say that the article is wrong but a few things.

    Irrespective of my views on it, a link of Albanian and Germanic has been supported by other scholars. I don't agree to be frank but you should refute their arguments.

    (Look, though. In page 359 he compares reconstructed 'Indo-Ir./Balto-Sl.' pronouns to attested Attic Greek ones. That doesn't have to do much with his arguments but it's comparing apples to oranges. I don't take seriously into account those who do it)

    I personally believe Albanian has a Phrygian element too. And Phrygian in some ways connects Greek with Balto-Slavic and Indo-Iranian.

    We don't know much about 'Thracian'. Actually there are some inscriptions which are undepichered and seem incomprehensible.

    Rolisteneas Nerenea tiltean ēsko Arazea domean Tilezupta miē era zēlta

    I think in that incription 'domean' is translated as 'woman'. What is it's IE cognate? It seems superficially similar to English woman but that comes from
    wīfmann. We then can say that is is related to PIE *dem, *dom, Gk. domos, Lt. domus, OCS domŭ = home, house. So it is the person who stays in house or who rules the house if we want something more feminist :P and theoretically it can be correct but we can't even verify that the way the scholar chose to seperate the words is correct because they are seperated like that in the ring.

    Rolisteneasn ereneatil teanēskoa razeadom eantilezu ptamiēe raz ēlta
    (What is transcribed as
    ē can also be h)
    Kortlandt in his article (2016) gives contemporary knowledge.

    It is interesting for example American linguists and mathematicians did one extensively researching for Indo European languages where found Albanian is the closest to Balto Slavic.

    What is interesting they found that Albanian is furthest from the Latin.

    In their research they take only words from investigated IE language for which they were sure that not borrowed from other IE language.

    Of course it is not disputed, Albanian has Germanic elements. Proto-Albanian, Thracian, Proto-Balto-Slavic, Proto-Germanic, all were close together for example in territory of todays Romania and beyond (East Europe).

    East European cultures of iron age (Basarabi, Chernoles, Proto-Scythian and similar) were in link with Hallsttat culture.



    It is logical that Albanian is not Centum as Germanic languages.

    Albanian is Satem as Balto-Slavic, Thracian, Armenian, Iranian (if we speak about Iranian languages especially someone can find any similarities between Albanian and Taylish and generally Nortwesthern Iranian languages).

    Of course Albanian could have similarities with Phrygian.

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    Of course it is not disputed, Albanian has Germanic elements. Proto-Albanian, Thracian, Proto-Balto-Slavic, Proto-Germanic, all were close together for example in territory of todays Romania and beyond (East Europe).
    The only marked Germanic elements in Albanian derive from East Germanic dialects, mostly via Slavic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkoZ View Post
    The only marked Germanic elements in Albanian derive from East Germanic dialects, mostly via Slavic.
    What is most logical. Balto Slavic and Germanic always had long border and mixing. And Albanian borrowing from Balto Slavic took some Germanic elements, but it could be possible that Albanian somewhat borrowed directly from any Eastern German tribe.

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    What is most logical. Balto Slavic and Germanic always had long border and mixing. And Albanian borrowing from Balto Slavic took some Germanic elements, but it could be possible that Albanian somewhat borrowed directly from any Eastern German tribe.
    Yes, I think what makes Albanian an oddball is that it readily soaked up foreign loanwords, presumably due to the relative underdevelopment of early Albanian society. Albanian-Slavic interactions are an interesting subject of study in this regard. Matthew C. Curtis (2012) summarizes it as follows: the significantly larger body of Slavic loanwords into Albanian is characterized by words pertaining to farming, cultural objects and nature, whereas the less numerous Albanian terms in Slavic relate to heroic virtue and family relations. It's an interesting dynamic and I think it explains to an extent the development of the Albanian language.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    Kortlandt in his article (2016) gives contemporary knowledge.
    I don't believe you care about the truth. The article you posted isn't about the similarites between Albanian and Balto-Slavic. He wants to prove that 'a comparison of Balto-Slavic with Indo-Iranian leads to a reconstruction of an early stage of Indo-European' and he just states that Albanian appears to be' the closest relative of Balto-Slavic'. Irrespective of if that is correct or not that article isn't about it and can't be used to support it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by A. Papadimitriou View Post
    I don't believe you care about the truth. The article you posted isn't about the similarites between Albanian and Balto-Slavic. He wants to prove that 'a comparison of Balto-Slavic with Indo-Iranian leads to a reconstruction of an early stage of Indo-European' and he just states that Albanian appears to be' the closest relative of Balto-Slavic'. Irrespective of if that is correct or not that article isn't about it and can't be used to support it.
    Only science.

    It is scientific article about Balto Slavic, Indo Iranian and other Satem languages, published in Baltistica, 2016.

    Citations:

    "The closest relatives of Balto-Slavic are Albanian and Indo-Iranian. Together with Armenian and Thracian, these are the satǝm languages, which together with Greek and Phrygian constitute the eastern part of Classic Indo-European (cf. Porzig 1974). It is therefore legitimate to look for shared innovations of these languages which set them apart from their neighbors."

    "Proto-Indo-European had a threefold distinction between fortis, glottalic lenis, and plain lenis obstruents, all of them voiceless, e.g. *t [t:], *d [ť], *dh [t] (cf. Kortlandt 2010, 53–65; 2012). In the Classic Indo-European languages (after their separation from Anatolian and Tocharian), the lenis obstruents became voiced [ʔd], [d], while the fortis remained voiceless [t]. This system was best preserved in Indo-Iranian, Balto-Slavic and Albanian until the plain voiced stops became breathy voiced in the majority of Indic dialects, e.g. dh [d̤] <[d], and glottalization was subsequently lost in the larger part of the area, yielding glottalized vowels in Balto-Slavic as a result of Winter’s law (cf. Kortlandt 2009, 51–76). The glottalized stops were devoiced in Thracian, Armenian and Phrygian, but not in Greek, where the plain voiced stops became devoiced and aspirated, e.g. θ [th] < [d]. The Greek devoicing was a local development because the closest relatives (Phrygian and the ancient Macedonian dialect) were not affected. The devoicing of the glottalized stops separated Thracian, Armenian and Phrygian from Balto-Slavic, Albanian and Greek. One may wonder if this development can be attributed to the influence of a Proto-Anatolian substratum."

    "Another development that seems to be dialectal Indo-European is the retraction of *s to *ṣ after *i, *u, *r, *k in Indo-Iranian, Balto-Slavic, Albanian and Armenian. However, the distinction between these variants became phonemic in the separate sub-branches only. Moreover, it cannot be demonstrated that the retraction did not affect Greek and Phrygian because these languages never developed a similar distinction. Thus, we arrive at five dialectal areas within the eastern part of Classic Indo-European:
    357
    1. Indo-Iranian;
    2. Balto-Slavic and Albanian;
    3. Armenian and Thracian;
    4. Phrygian;
    5. Greek."

    Etc...

    I gave link and everyone can read whole paper.

    If you want we can discuss further.

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    here ya go, reich and garrett speech from 29 april 2017 http://www.ustream.tv/channel/aps-meeting
    They do not say albanian descend from germanic though. He just uses that tree as an example of how language trees usually look

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    Quote Originally Posted by Balkanite View Post
    here ya go, reich and garrett speech from 29 april 2017 http://www.ustream.tv/channel/aps-meeting
    They do not say albanian descend from germanic though. He just uses that tree as an example of how language trees usually look
    It's a theory like many others. Many have been in the past and many will be in the future. For example read this theory:
    LITUANUS
    LITHUANIAN QUARTERLY JOURNAL OF ARTS AND SCIENCES

    Volume 39, No.2 - Summer 1993
    Editor of this issue: Robertas Vitas, Lithuanian Research & Studies Center
    ISSN 0024-5089
    Copyright © 1993 LITUANUS Foundation, Inc.
    Lituanus
    SLAVIC, A BALTICIZED ALBANIAN?

    Harvey E. Mayer

    Hamp (1984) in his criticism of my article (Mayer 1981), after his inaccurate comment that Iranian, because of its vowel system, 'can surely be classified only with Indic',1 makes statements about Albanian which stimulate major investigation.

    He says: 'It can be said to be related more closely to Baltic and Slavic than to anything else, and certainly not to be close to Thracian.'2

    I ask: If so, is Albanian more closely related to Slavic than to Baltic? And if it is, was Pre-Slavic originally so closely tied with Pre-Albanian in Late Dialectal Indo-European times that both represented very minor variations of the same dialect as opposed to other dialects like Pre-Baltic, Pre-Iranian, Pre-Germanic, etc.?

    Martynov (1981) says that Proto-Slavic is Italicized Proto-Baltic while Common Slavic is Iranicized Proto-Slavic. This is all based on lexicon. My suggestion that Slavic mainly reflects in its essence an original Pre-Albanian variant both phonologically and lexically with a huge superimposed Baltic lexical influence now extending into morphology rests on a broader and deeper linguistic base. With this, it offers some answers to some vexing questions.

    Phonologically, Slavic and Albanian have the following notable ancient ties: 1. Th, TH to T, 2. Dh, DH to D (T = voiceless stop, D = voiceless stop, h = aspiration, H = laryn-geal), 3. s alternating with h (not true of Baltic), 4. reflexes of k' (g'(h) kept separate from those of the ruki law (not true of Baltic), 5. ks- to h- (not true of Baltic), a special, exclusive Albanian-Slavic reflex, 6. more cases of k', g'(h) to k, g than other satem languages including Baltic which shows sibilants instead (Shevelov 1965 for the Slavic).

    Lexically, Slavic and Albanian correspondences minus Baltic ones outnumber Baltic and Albanian correspondences minus Slavic ones.3 This is striking when we consider that the opposite is true for Hittite and Tokharian.

    Viewing (Pre-)Slavic as a variant of (Pre-)Albanian, considering their relative geographic positions as a constant, makes it easy for us to see just how Martynov's comments about Italic and Iranian influences can apply not only for Slavic, but for Albanian as well. Note that North Iranian contacts apparently influenced Slavic while South Iranian contacts apparently influenced Albanian.4

    This (Pre)-Slavic-(Pre) Albanian view allows us also to suggest an answer to the question mentioned by Trubačev (1981) of Common Slavic's absence from the region of Old European hydronomy in which Baltic plays an important role, possibly even that of the center of its radiation. He says, "... and this is very odd because it contradicts the supra-language and supra-dialect character of the named hydronymic region and also contradicts all the old ties of Common Slavic with other Indo-European languages of Europe, and finally contradicts the theory of departure of Common Slavic from the heart of Common Baltic or its western branch.' This (Pre-)Slavic (Pre-)Albanian view might also allow us to state with considerable assurance our answer to the question of the origins of Albanian, especially since a similar problem with ancient Albanian place names in Albania occurs. The answer to both questions is probably that the (Pre-)Slavs and (Pre-

    The possibility of special, close aboriginal (Pre-)Slavic-(Pre)Albanian dialectal ties indicates the Carpathians as a common ancestral home for (Pre-)Slavs and (Pre-)Albanians where they led a pastoral, migratory existence. This location surely originally put them out of reach of contact with Pre-Baltic.

    This is evidenced by two ancient phonological differences: 1. Slavic's and Albanian's reflexes of k', g'(h) separate from those of the ruki law versus Baltic's early immediate merger of them into š/s, ž/z, 2. The special Slavo-Albanian reflex of ks-to h-: Russian dialect xinit' 'to condemn', Russian xilyj, xiloj 'sickly'; Albanian (h)unj, Shkoder ulj, ulem 1 belittle' where h-is from ks- if not kh- (Fasmer 1973; 236-8)5 versus Baltic's metathesis of original ks- to sk-t an ancient change predating the ruki law: Lithuanian skaudus 'painful' versus Slavic xudu 'bad' (Stang 1965:95).

    It is significant that wherever original sk-/ks- occurs, Baltic has sk-, Slavic has reflexes of either, while Albanian, where anti-Baltic drift is the strongest, has h- from an original ks- or, I believe, from a ks- via metathesis from an original sk- before a back vowel as in he from skoia 'shadow' (Fasmer 1973:602).

    My present view of Slavic as a heavily Balticized Albanian, I believe, helps make my answers to all of Hamp's objections to my previous article's position against a Balto-Slavic protolanguage cogent despite the 'evidence' he cites for it including 'syllabic contrast between long and short or acuted and circumflex',6 'the remarkable agreement of Baltic and Slavic in the incidence of a double reflex of the Indo-European syllabic sonants,7 and in the lengthening of syllables before Indo-European mediae,8 and in the derivational vrddhi affecting i's and u's developed in Baltic and Slavic analyzed so fully by Leskien, and in several basic formational features of the verbal system.' In the end all of this involves borrowing, calking, and otherwise favoring of morphemes, even those occurring as doublets, of one sort (words) or another (affixes) over others via dialect or language clustering contact.

    With Pre-Slavs seen as originally basically nomadic northern Pre-Albanian descending northward from the Carpathians into regions with sedentary, most likely, technically superior Baits, we can expect their dialect to have been strongly influenced by Baltic. A further sign of this ancient situation is the much greater degree of homogeneity of Slavic than of Baltic where more anciently sedentary dialects tend to show far less homogeneity than migratory ones. Albanian, with more homogeneity than Slavic, shows an even later onset of sedentary habits of its speakers who, having moved south, characteristically, seem to have replaced one mountainous region (the Carpathians) with another (the Balkans) to continue an earlier, somewhat migratory, nomadic type of living before finally becoming sedentary.

    I am grateful to Hamp for his remarks about Albanian. They helped me identify Pre-Slavic as a variant of Pre-Albanian and support the notion that it was originally significantly different from Pre-Baltic under whose influence it later fell. In a way, Slavic resembles English, a powerfully Romanized Germanic language. But where the situation with English has been relatively easily identifiable, the analogous situation with Slavic has been very elusive. This is not surprising. The influence of conservative Baltic gave Slavic a conservative appearance. The influence of innovative neighboring dialects and languages (Celtic, for example) on Albanian gave it a much changed appearance. The immediate reaction has been: Albanian and Slavic look so different while Baltic and Slavic seem so much alike.

    To counter this, I provide the reminder that the proposed Slavic-Albanian linguistic unity ended a long time ago, when Indo-European syllabic nasals n, m, n, m became vowels plus nasals. Before this, Pre-Slavic and Pre-Albanian had had different new neighbors. For, perhaps, centuries before this Pre-Slavic, and not Pre-Albanian, had had Pre-Baltic and Pre-Germanic, and for, perhaps, millennia after this Slavic, and not Albanian, had Baltic and Germanic as neighbors.

    References

    Fasmer, Maks. 1964-1973. Etimologičeskij slovar' russkogo jazyka, tr. by O. N. Trubačev. Vote. 1-4. Moskva: Izdatelstvo 'Progress'.
    _. 1973. (Volume 4 of the above) 236-8, 253, 602.
    Fraenkel, Ernst. 1962-1965. Litauisches etymologisches Worterbuch, Vote. 1,2. Heidelberg: Carl Winter Universitatsverlag. Gottingen: Vandenhoeck & Ruprecht.
    Hamp, Eric P. 1980. Thracian, Dacian and Albanian-Romanian Correspondences. Actes du IIe Congres international de thracologie. Vol. 3, 57-60. Bucuresti.
    _. 1984. On Myths and Accuracy. General Linguistics. 24.4.238-9.
    Martynov, V.V. Balto-slavjano-iranskie jazykovye otnošenija. Balto-slavjanskie issledovanija 1980, 16-26. Moskva: Izdatel'stvo "Nauka'.
    Mayer, Harvey E. 1981. Two Linguistic Myths: Balto-Slavic and Common Baltic. Lituanus. 27.1.63-8.
    _. 1983. Zum Lexikon und der balto-slavischen Frage. San Antonio: Defense Language Institute. /To appear in Zeitschrift fur slavische Philologie./
    _. 1987. Prussian, an Aboriginal a-Language? Lituanus. 35. 5. 66.
    Shevelov, George Y. 1965. A Prehistory of Slavic: The Phonology of Common Slavic, 139-49. New York-Morningside Heights: Columbia University Press.
    Stang, Chr. S. 1966. Vergleichende Grammatik der baltischen Sprachen, 95. Oslo-Bergen-Tromso: Universitetsforlaget.
    Trubačev, O.N. 1981. Replika po balto-slavjanskomu voprosu. Balto-slavjanskie issledovanija 1980, 4. Moskva: Izdatel'stvo 'Nauka'.
    Winter, Werner. 1978. The distribution of short and long vowels in stems of the type Lith. esti: vesti: mesti and OCS jasti: vesti: mesti in Baltic and Slavic Languages. Trends in Linguistics 4. Recent Developments in Historical Phonology, ed. by J. Fisiak, 431-46. The Hague-Paris-New York: Mouton.

    Notes

    1 Indie and Iranian once had five vowel systems of a, e, i, o, u, with e reconstructible from a in ca, ja from ke, ge, short o restorable by Brugmann's law of oR + vowel to aR + vowel, and long o retraceable from long a in formations alternating with those with a demonstrable erstwhile short o. With short o merging with short a before the merger of their long counterparts in Iranian, we arrive at the vowel system of a, e, i, o, u which I proposed for a conceivable Late Central Indo-European dialect including Iranian.
    2 Hamp (1980) says that in Pre-Roman times palatalization of Indo-European labio-velars before front vowels occurred in Albanian but not in Thracian which proves Albanian could not have been Thracian. But can we be sure that the Latin and Greek symbols used circa Roman times represented unpalatalized velars? Note also that Hamp surely classifies
    Lithuanian as dose to Latvian despite Lithuanian's kelti, kilti, gyvas, geltonas, etc. without the palatalizations Latvian shows in celt, cilt, dzivs, dzeltans ('raise, rise, alive, yellow'), etc.
    3 In an article (Mayer 1987) I mention that examination of Fasmer 1964-1973 and Fraenkel 1962-1965 indicates that Slavic-Albanian-minus-Baltic native cognate roots outnumber Baltic-Albanian-minus-Slavic ones by approximately 1/3. Since we expect languages of long separation to match better in original lexicon with more conservative Baltic, this opposite situation with Albanian indicates special ties with Slavic as a unit separate from Baltic.
    4 For Indo-European k', g'(h) North Iranian and Slavic coincide with s, z while South Iranian and Albanian coincide with th, dh.
    5 This is less likely from kh. Note k, not h, in theke 'tip' from a possible kh.
    6 In an article (Mayer 1983) and again in another (Mayer 1987) I explain the opposition in Baltic and Slavic of circumflex versus acute which replaced that of short versus long in tautosyllables as having arisen from a process of affixation initiated in one dialect or language and later spread to the others via calking. In these positions I saw long syllables arising from infixed vowel morphemes homophonous with already present root vowels, e.g., *varn- 'raven': *va-a-rn- 'crow'. Here, by analogy with long root vowels inherited from Indo-European as the long o in *do- 'give' the new long vowels arising through contraction were acute. The same sort of new long vowels in affixes were circumflex as the e, (e/ė) in Old Church Slavonic neseaste: Lithuanian nešėte 'you carried'. This new long-vowel-creating process involving positioning of morphological elements was syntactic and, therefore, as easily calked as lexicon. In origin it was not at all phonetic.
    7 Evidence from Indie (r, ur, ir) indicates three possible reflexes of an Indo-European syllabic resonant (R):1. neutral R which later became aR in many dialects and daughter-languages, 2, labialized uR, and 3. palatalized iR. Where o tended to become a, labialized uR and/or palatalized iR tended to be generalized for morphological purposes to avoid confusion of TR(T) and ToR(T) reflexes, now both TaR(T). Through dialect and language clustering influences (calking, etc.), uR was stabilized as the reflex of R was stabilized as an alternate reflex of R in satem palatalizing Baltic and Slavic.
    8 This lengthening of syllables before Indo-European mediae mentioned by Winter (1978) was not phonetic, but morphological in origin. Thus we find long e in Baltic and Slavic sed- 'sit down' matched by the same in Gothic setun 'they sat'. Short vowels occur in the same morpheme with shifts in meaning in Gothic sitan 'to sit' and Slavic šid- 'having gone', xod- 'going'. (Fasmer 1973:253 for the etymological connection.) Also, note the additional exceptions with (originally) short vowels: Slavic voda 'water', koza 'goaf, ogni 'fire', čeznoti 'to disappear', kogutu 'claw', stogu 'stack', stirženi 'pivot'; Old Russian: mulzu 'I churn butter'; Russian lizat' 'to lick'; Lithuanian: laigonas 'brother-in-law', luba 'ceiling board'.
    http://www.lituanus.org/1993_2/93_2_05.htm#Ref

    P. S.
    About the Phrygian, it's an interesting topic. Once they lived, roughly in what is today Central Albania.

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Balkanite View Post
    here ya go, reich and garrett speech from 29 april 2017 http://www.ustream.tv/channel/aps-meeting
    They do not say albanian descend from germanic though. He just uses that tree as an example of how language trees usually look
    Gray and Atkinson give another tree:

    Albanian is related with Indo Iranian,
    Greek and Armenian,
    Germanic and Italic.



    Kortlandt gives:

    Balto Slavic and Albanian
    Armenian and Thracian
    Greek is isolated.

    Chang, Catchart, Hall, Garret give:

    Albanian, Greek, and Armenian are one branch
    ...

    I discussed with Taranis about Gray & Atkinson model.

    More factors has influence including choice of characters, computational model etc. Different methods will give different results but it is impossible to say which method is better.

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    [email protected] It is interesting to examine loanwords but as you said underdeveloped Albanians and the loanwords they borrowed from Slavic does not corespond to things we know,for example loanwords for cultural objects.We know for Slavs to be barbarians who invaded Roman empire,while Albanians living in the Roman empire,how is it possible a Roman empire citizen to have borrowings for cultural object from barbarian,should be rather opposite,is one of questions want to ask to such theories.

    Concerning farmering,ok it is not surprising Slavs were farmers by majority.

    Concerning nature words borrowings from Slavic into Albanian they are right probably too,but most important things two borrowings come to my mind but this are probably from Albanian into Slavic and concerning nature.
    Those are Slavic-Gramada,Albanian-Germadhe meaning mass of stones,heap found in Romanian too.
    Second is Karpa found in Bulgarian,Macedonian,Polish "rock,rocky hill with sharp peak,etc",in Polish with bit different meaning so maybe Dacian sabstratum as some think? So if this are really borrowings from Albanians into Slavic it give us a description of nature known to Albanians.That should be mountainous zone with sharp rocks,stones etc.
    We can not build entire theory out of this but many linguists have proposed a mountainous area for the Albanian language,this could be if we choose place close to the Balkans the Dinaric Alps either northern Albanian,Montenegro area or Carpathians.Carpathian most probably bear Albanian name Karpe (rock,rocky hill with sharp peak,cliff etc) found word with same meaning in some Slavic languages.

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