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Thread: David Reich speech on steppe migrations-April 29, 2017

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    David Reich speech on steppe migrations-April 29, 2017

    For any one who wants to discuss the things he said.

    It's really all in the title.
    Ancient DNA suggests Steppe migrations spread Indo-European languages


    I personally sort of did a double take at this: No Steppe ancestry in aDNA data from Balkans and Anatolia.

    So, no steppe from the Balkans into Anatolia either. If true, either Anatolian languages came south over the Caucasus, or the original Pre-or-proto Indo-European arose somewhere in Anatolia, as some of us have been saying for a long time was a possibility.

    I wonder if my other suggestion at one time, that Greek came through Anatolia, could be true. That or it came with almost no people. How ironic if that should turn out to be true, given how often the Mycenaens were used to illuminate Indo-European societies: it may be a template for them but they might not be steppe people?

    Modified linguistic tree:
    http://s22.postimg.org/ayiu8c9gx/tree.png

    If it did come from the Caucasus and then across Anatolia, then it's a pincer movement from the Caucasus with one arrow going into the steppe, mixing there with EHG and then moving into Europe, and another arrow going from the Caucasus into the rest of Anatolia, the Balkans, and on to the rest of southern Europe.

    If that's the case then Pagani et al may be onto something, and the "Indo- European component" may be some group related to "Caucasians".

    Sintashta not an ancestor of Indic peoples (and Andrnovo?). So much for all those statistics predicting they would be... I just love all the pretending going on over at Eurogenes that they never thought any such thing. :) Has the thread been deleted?


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    Honestly I think the most ground breaking part of this conference is that Albanian is now listed as a Germanic language or at according to that linguistic map.

    Nonetheless some interesting stuff.

    So we are 100 percent sure that Sintashta and Andronovo are not the source of indo-aryan people entering India? Their reasoning seems to be because they(Sintashta/Andronovo) have Early European farmer ancestry that Indians don't have they can't be the source. Do you think that is sound reasoning?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Promenade View Post
    Honestly I think the most ground breaking part of this conference is that Albanian is now listed as a Germanic language or at according to that linguistic map.

    Nonetheless some interesting stuff.

    So we are 100 percent sure that Sintashta and Andronovo are not the source of indo-aryan people entering India? Their reasoning seems to be because they(Sintashta/Andronovo) have Early European farmer ancestry that Indians don't have they can't be the source. Do you think that is sound reasoning?
    IMO, they( Albanians ) could have been from the Ancient Germanic Bastanae people from roughly the southern Carpathian mountains..........they supplied 80000 troops not including wives and children to Philip of Macedon ..........no ones knows if they went back or not
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    IMO, they( Albanians ) could have been from the Ancient Germanic Bastanae people from roughly the southern Carpathian mountains..........they supplied 80000 troops not including wives and children to Philip of Macedon ..........no ones knows if they went back or not

    that is far too old,

    more real seems to me the case of George Maniakis army


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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    that is far too old,

    more real seems to me the case of George Maniakis army


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Maniakes
    Yetos, i understand the reason of this kind of theories. There is a cure for this. Every average greek know that the ancient greeks were wiped from history from the slavic invasion. And every average greek know that Romans replaced part of this slavs with populations from Asia Minor. Later arrived Albanians mostly from South Albania or Epir but also some from the North Albania, who colonized an empty Greece, this is what the medieval chronicles say. After that this Albanians settled in Greece, the eternal demographic problem that afflicted Greece, was resolved. For this reason, this Albanians, or Arvanites are to be considered the original inhabitants of Greece. Accept this reality and you and your compatriots will feel better and will stop to spam forums with folktales about original greeks and Macedonians, or as in this case about Maniakis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    that is far too old,

    more real seems to me the case of George Maniakis army


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Maniakes
    where is the albanian with the german as per david reich video...............no point in giving something without these links as this is what was stated

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    IMO, they( Albanians ) could have been from the Ancient Germanic Bastanae people from roughly the southern Carpathian mountains..........they supplied 80000 troops not including wives and children to Philip of Macedon ..........no ones knows if they went back or not
    Oh my God. But you still continue with the story that the Albanian father of one of your friends in Australia told you that Albanians are descendant of Bastanae? But this is not serious. This is supposed to be a serious forum. There are forums who offer Trool Carnival subforum. But please, not this kind of posts in a serious discussion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    Oh my God. But you still continue with the story that the Albanian father of one of your friends in Australia told you that Albanians are descendant of Bastanae? But this is not serious. This is supposed to be a serious forum. There are forums who offer Trool Carnival subforum. But please, not this kind of posts in a serious discussion.
    where do you think the german and albanian link came from or are you better than david reich?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    IMO, they( Albanians ) could have been from the Ancient Germanic Bastanae people from roughly the southern Carpathian mountains..........they supplied 80000 troops not including wives and children to Philip of Macedon ..........no ones knows if they went back or not
    I have seen a study suggesting that Albanian and Greek languages separated 5000 years ago

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    Quote Originally Posted by DuPidh View Post
    I have seen a study suggesting that Albanian and Greek languages separated 5000 years ago
    i know about this study,
    it was based on common words,
    and gave wrong results,
    we have discussed that method on the forum, in a previous thread

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    to me the modified linguistic tree suggests Germanic, Balto-Slavic, Armenian and Greek to belong to the Corded Ware / Sintashta branch, while Italo-Celtic directly to the Yamna branch

    as for Anatolian :

    So what's the issue with the Anatolian branch? Again, as per the above screencap, Reich sees no evidence of a migration from the steppe to Anatolia via the Balkans that would bring Anatolian languages to Anatolia. But please note that this evidence might soon be forthcoming, if the Reich lab manages to acquire Hittite ancient DNA. See here and here.

    http://eurogenes.blogspot.be/2017/04/ancient-dna-suggests-steppe-migrations.html

    Hittite DNA ? that would be interesting, but note that Hittites were multi-ethnic and multilingual, only their official language was IE

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    As far as I know IE linguistic trees are many as pine races... just it depends on which source data is choosen by the linguist the results will be so or so.

    Hittite DNA will be a hard issue as IIRC they cremated their deceased, if some DNA is got from just buried people what will prevent that he wouldn't be Hattic?
    "What I've seen so far after my entire career chasing Indoeuropeans is that our solutions look tissue thin and our problems still look monumental" J.P.Mallory

    "The ultimate homeland of the group [PIE] that also spread Anatolian languages is less clear." D. Reich

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    Hittite DNA will be a hard issue as IIRC they cremated their deceased, if some DNA is got from just buried people what will prevent that he wouldn't be Hattic?
    By the way if Greek Mycaenean and Hittite are attested from 1600 BC such languages might be in place at least in 2000 BC. Of course if Yamnayists are obsesswd to find steppe genes the genetists would'nt be capable to track the IE migration, but for those pointing to a northern homeland it's not so problematic. I recall that Pax Augusta found in RISE595 a 15% of North Slavic.

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...l=1#post499438

    Even if I'm not confident comparing ancients with moderns (it is more like to find out how where Europeans in the Middle Ages comparing them with Southafrican coloureds), it is an interesting point, also to notice how the Yamnayist obsession can divert us from the right path.

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    Where did you find the video of the speech, Angela? It's hard to comment without having heard it.

    Regarding the new tree, I had proposed since 2009 that the Mycenaeans were predominantly R1a and descended from the Srubna culture by a nearly direct migration from the Steppe around 1600 BCE. I believe that the later Dorian migration brought R1b (Z2103, U152?) to Greece. Therefore Greek is a hybrid IE branch, and this is hard to show on such a tree.

    However I disagree that this should be the case of the Armenian branch too. It is clear that Armenians are predominantly R1b-Z2103 (and especially L584). They have 30% of R1b for only 5% of R1a. The Mitanni or other Indo-Iranian tribes surely brought R1a-Z93 and probably also some R1b-Z2103 (Y24543 clade, found in Armenia, South Asia and Ukraine). That's probably what they found with ancient DNA. The Mitanni came first to Armenia (from 1500 BCE), then the actual Proto-Armenians from the Balkans (from 1200 BCE). That's what archaeology and history say.

    I also find it odd to place Albanian with the Germanic branch. I wonder what are their justification for that. Albanian belong to R1b-Z2103 (SE European CTS9219 clade), not even to R1b-L51. I would place Albanian split a bit before the split between Italo-Celtic and Germanic. Phylogenetically, the Albanian branch is more closely related to the Armenian branch.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Where did you find the video of the speech, Angela? It's hard to comment without having heard it.

    Regarding the new tree, I had proposed since 2009 that the Mycenaeans were predominantly R1a and descended from the Srubna culture by a nearly direct migration from the Steppe around 1600 BCE. I believe that the later Dorian migration brought R1b (Z2103, U152?) to Greece. Therefore Greek is a hybrid IE branch, and this is hard to show on such a tree.

    However I disagree that this should be the case of the Armenian branch too. It is clear that Armenians are predominantly R1b-Z2103 (and especially L584). They have 30% of R1b for only 5% of R1a. The Mitanni or other Indo-Iranian tribes surely brought R1a-Z93 and probably also some R1b-Z2103 (Y24543 clade, found in Armenia, South Asia and Ukraine). That's probably what they found with ancient DNA. The Mitanni came first to Armenia (from 1500 BCE), then the actual Proto-Armenians from the Balkans (from 1200 BCE). That's what archaeology and history say.

    I also find it odd to place Albanian with the Germanic branch. I wonder what are their justification for that. Albanian belong to R1b-Z2103 (SE European CTS9219 clade), not even to R1b-L51. I would place Albanian split a bit before the split between Italo-Celtic and Germanic. Phylogenetically, the Albanian branch is more closely related to the Armenian branch.
    Albanian language, from what i know, is not related with Armenian branch. Greek is considered close to Armenian. There are different theories about Albanian language. It's true that some scholars support some connection with Germanic branch. There are some words, for example the word night in Albanian is natë, in german is nacht. In italian is notte, in greek nihta. But for the mainstream of the scholars, the Albanian language form an independent branch of the Indo-European languages.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    Albanian language, from what i know, is not related with Armenian branch. Greek is considered close to Armenian. There are different theories about Albanian language. It's true that some scholars support some connection with Germanic branch. There are some words, for example the word night in Albanian is natë, in german is nacht. In italian is notte, in greek nihta. But for the mainstream of the scholars, the Albanian language form an independent branch of the Indo-European languages.
    you need to confront david on this linguistic theory ..............after you do this then reply to me why he placed german with albanian.........and not before

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    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    Albanian language, from what i know, is not related with Armenian branch. Greek is considered close to Armenian. There are different theories about Albanian language. It's true that some scholars support some connection with Germanic branch. There are some words, for example the word night in Albanian is natë, in german is nacht. In italian is notte, in greek nihta. But for the mainstream of the scholars, the Albanian language form an independent branch of the Indo-European languages.

    the 2 Irish pilgrim monks at 1322 say different things,

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    the 2 Irish pilgrim monks at 1322 say different things,
    I don't have any slightly idea of what are you talking. Open a new thread and elaborate your conspiracy theories.
    Last edited by LABERIA; 30-04-17 at 15:04.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    I don't have any slightly idea of what are you talking. Open a new thread and elaborate your conspiracy theories.
    well if the written facts of Irish monks are conspiracy,
    then what about Fallmayer and Metternich?

    anyway Fallmayer theory suggested that Greeks were swaped by Slavs and Greeks moved to Asia,
    but all genetical results dissapointed him and his followers

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Where did you find the video of the speech, Angela? It's hard to comment without having heard it.

    Regarding the new tree, I had proposed since 2009 that the Mycenaeans were predominantly R1a and descended from the Srubna culture by a nearly direct migration from the Steppe around 1600 BCE. I believe that the later Dorian migration brought R1b (Z2103, U152?) to Greece. Therefore Greek is a hybrid IE branch, and this is hard to show on such a tree.

    However I disagree that this should be the case of the Armenian branch too. It is clear that Armenians are predominantly R1b-Z2103 (and especially L584). They have 30% of R1b for only 5% of R1a. The Mitanni or other Indo-Iranian tribes surely brought R1a-Z93 and probably also some R1b-Z2103 (Y24543 clade, found in Armenia, South Asia and Ukraine). That's probably what they found with ancient DNA. The Mitanni came first to Armenia (from 1500 BCE), then the actual Proto-Armenians from the Balkans (from 1200 BCE). That's what archaeology and history say.

    I also find it odd to place Albanian with the Germanic branch. I wonder what are their justification for that. Albanian belong to R1b-Z2103 (SE European CTS9219 clade), not even to R1b-L51. I would place Albanian split a bit before the split between Italo-Celtic and Germanic. Phylogenetically, the Albanian branch is more closely related to the Armenian branch.
    I see Srubna as related to R1a-Sintashta, but catacomb as R1b-Yamna
    So did Myceneans come from Srubna or Catacomb?
    They certainly came from the people of western Ukraine who invented the sword. Those same people also got into the Carpathian Basin, even before the Myceneans in Greece.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    I see Srubna as related to R1a-Sintashta, but catacomb as R1b-Yamna
    So did Myceneans come from Srubna or Catacomb?
    They certainly came from the people of western Ukraine who invented the sword. Those same people also got into the Carpathian Basin, even before the Myceneans in Greece.
    It could have been either the Late Catacomb or the Early Srubna culture. It's not very clear the the Mycenaeans appear just after the transition period between the two cultures in the Steppe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    It could have been either the Late Catacomb or the Early Srubna culture. It's not very clear the the Mycenaeans appear just after the transition period between the two cultures in the Steppe.
    R1a Z93 found in Srubna basically rules out Srubna for Greece unless other Srubna carried sometype of R1b.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    R1a Z93 found in Srubna basically rules out Srubna for Greece unless other Srubna carried sometype of R1b.
    We don't have Mycenaean DNA yet. They could certainly be R1a.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Where did you find the video of the speech, Angela? It's hard to comment without having heard it.

    Regarding the new tree, I had proposed since 2009 that the Mycenaeans were predominantly R1a and descended from the Srubna culture by a nearly direct migration from the Steppe around 1600 BCE. I believe that the later Dorian migration brought R1b (Z2103, U152?) to Greece. Therefore Greek is a hybrid IE branch, and this is hard to show on such a tree.

    However I disagree that this should be the case of the Armenian branch too. It is clear that Armenians are predominantly R1b-Z2103 (and especially L584). They have 30% of R1b for only 5% of R1a. The Mitanni or other Indo-Iranian tribes surely brought R1a-Z93 and probably also some R1b-Z2103 (Y24543 clade, found in Armenia, South Asia and Ukraine). That's probably what they found with ancient DNA. The Mitanni came first to Armenia (from 1500 BCE), then the actual Proto-Armenians from the Balkans (from 1200 BCE). That's what archaeology and history say.

    I also find it odd to place Albanian with the Germanic branch. I wonder what are their justification for that. Albanian belong to R1b-Z2103 (SE European CTS9219 clade), not even to R1b-L51. I would place Albanian split a bit before the split between Italo-Celtic and Germanic. Phylogenetically, the Albanian branch is more closely related to the Armenian branch.
    Actually there are many Germanic words in Albanian language, but the common explanation has been that they have derived from Gothic invasion some time AD. Similarities are seen in grammar. Also the hapogroups I1+I2 Germanic are present in Ydna of Albanians at the rate of around 5%. R1b Germanic also is present . So genetically speaking if the classification has any ground it could be those people who brought it

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    Quote Originally Posted by DuPidh View Post
    Actually there are many Germanic words in Albanian language, but the common explanation has been that they have derived from Gothic invasion some time AD. Similarities are seen in grammar. Also the hapogroups I1+I2 Germanic are present in Ydna of Albanians at the rate of around 5%. R1b Germanic also is present . So genetically speaking if the classification has any ground it could be those people who brought it
    I1 means nothing if you did not expand to more deeper,

    I1 is also mark of traditional Greek tribes
    that have nothing to do with Albania

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