Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 2 of 9 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast
Results 26 to 50 of 205

Thread: The Bell Beaker by Olalde and Reich et al. 2017

  1. #26
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second Class1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    04-09-16
    Posts
    491
    Points
    1,328
    Level
    9
    Points: 1,328, Level: 9
    Level completed: 89%, Points required for next Level: 22
    Overall activity: 29.0%


    Country: Portugal



    @Bicicleur,
    I meant the math :)

  2. #27
    Regular Member Achievements:
    5000 Experience PointsVeteran
    berun's Avatar
    Join Date
    24-11-15
    Posts
    1,083
    Points
    8,654
    Level
    27
    Points: 8,654, Level: 27
    Level completed: 84%, Points required for next Level: 96
    Overall activity: 10.0%


    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    Yes, quick maths, if you have 70% "steppe ancestry" in CW and thereafter you have 50% in Central Europe Bell Beakers after 500 years, the reduction of such 20% could be got adding a devoid-of-steppe-ancestry BB for each two CW relatives.

    Moreover Reich finds out clearly that the British BB came from Central Europe admixed beakers... if French or Iberian beakers would be also admixed I suppose that Reich would express some doubt about their origin...
    "What I've seen so far after my entire career chasing Indoeuropeans is that our solutions look tissue thin and our problems still look monumental" J.P.Mallory

    "The ultimate homeland of the group [PIE] that also spread Anatolian languages is less clear." D. Reich

  3. #28
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second Class1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    04-09-16
    Posts
    491
    Points
    1,328
    Level
    9
    Points: 1,328, Level: 9
    Level completed: 89%, Points required for next Level: 22
    Overall activity: 29.0%


    Country: Portugal



    But berun,
    BB arrived to Bohemia and Central Germany, the ones they extract DNA from, not more than 100 years after arrival of BB to the area. Prob less. So how does that math work?!

    Note: come to think of it...what is the dating for those samples that they extracted Dna?

  4. #29
    MarkoZ
    Guest


    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    megalithic sites had already higher WHG then the first cardium ware sites, and chalcolithic had another step more WHG
    the question remains : who brought metalurgy to Iberia?
    Good question. It would seem that early copper working in Europe has a Balkan-Mediterranean association and spread along the coasts, but I'm not aware of any documented east to west movements. Though I wouldn't discount the possibility that southern Iberia simply had a population density in the Mesolithic, which relatively reduced the demic impact of migrating farmers. Who knows.

  5. #30
    MarkoZ
    Guest


    There's a whole lot of abstracts from that conference:

    https://www.sfb1266.uni-kiel.de/de/veranstaltungen/tagungen-workshops/archeologie-et-gobelets-1/abstracts

    Stockhammer, et al., “The Bell Beaker Complex in the Lech Valley: a Bioarchaeological Perspective”
    “While the integration of archaeological and scientific – especially genetic – evidence has enabled a better understanding of the Corded Ware Complex in the last years, similar data for the Bell Beaker Complex has not been published yet. However, in the last years we have conducted an interdisciplinary bioarchaeological research program on 85 Corded Ware, Bell Beaker and Early Bronze Age burials in the Lech Valley south of Augsburg, which is now a key region to understand the social transformations during the 3rd millennium BC. We will present the archaeological evidence of the Bell Beaker Complex in the Lech valley and integrate the data in an archaeological-diachronic perspective as well as with regard to the broad range of scientific analyses (ancient mitochondrial, Y and nuclear DNA, stable isotope ratios of strontium, oxygen carbon and nitrogen, radiocarbon dating, lead isotope analyses, etc.).
    The isotope data demonstrate a striking pattern of patrilocality and female exogamy during the Bell Beaker Complex and the Early Bronze Age where more than half of the females were non-local, while there were only rare occurrences among the male and subadult individuals. The DNA analysis enables us to understand family relations within the burial sites as well as the transformation of the genomic patterns from the Corded Ware to the Bell Beaker Complex and further on to the Early Bronze Age. In the end, we are able to present a new narrative for the genesis as well as the end of the Bell Beaker Complex at least for the Lech Valley south of Augsburg.”
    Looks like we shouldn't expect much continuity on the aDNA side, as expected I guess. These are geographically quite close to earliest German Beakers. I think CW females might have been involved after all.

  6. #31
    Elite member Achievements:
    Tagger Second ClassThree FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points
    Fire Haired14's Avatar
    Join Date
    20-04-14
    Posts
    2,194
    Points
    28,146
    Level
    51
    Points: 28,146, Level: 51
    Level completed: 55%, Points required for next Level: 504
    Overall activity: 31.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b DF27*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2a2b1

    Country: USA - Illinois



    @Maciamo,

    They said Bell Beaker not Unetice brought Steppe ancestry to Britain.

  7. #32
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    14,699
    Points
    240,870
    Level
    100
    Points: 240,870, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I don't have much in my files for autosomal results for Iberian Chalcolithic. This is it; the data is from Tomenable. Anyone have more?

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...n+Chalcolithic
    Here is a list of post-Neolithic ancient Y-DNA and GEDmatch kits from Iberia and Italy:

    Y-DNA haplogroups and autosomal DNA of Copper Age Iberians:

    Sample / (dating) / Y-DNA / GEDmatch kit / Single Pop. Sharing in Eurogenes K15:

    ATP16 (3211-2866 BC) - woman - M422959 - Sardinians
    ATP12 (3010-2879 BC) - I2a2a2
    ATP17 (3007–2871 BC) - I2a2a
    ATP2 (2899-2678 BC) - H2 - M849224 - Sardinians
    I1300 (2880-2630 BC) - woman - M547763 - Sardinians
    I1281 (2880-2630 BC) - woman - M784782 - Sardinians
    I1303 (2880-2630 BC) - I2a1a1 - M734278 - Sardinians
    I0581 (2880-2630 BC) - I2a2a1
    I1284 (2880-2630 BC) - I
    I1302 (2880-2630 BC) - G2a2b2b
    I1314 (2880-2630 BC) - G2a - M216291 - Sardinians
    I1280 (2880-2630 BC) - woman - M855364 - Sardinians
    I1274 (2880-2630 BC) - I2a2 - M874014 - Basques
    I1277 (2568-2346 BC) - I2a2a

    Bronze Age:

    ATP9 (1700-1518 BC) - woman - M116706 - Basques

    Y-DNA haplogroups and autosomal DNA of Remedello culture Italians:

    Sample / (dating) / Y-DNA / GEDmatch kit / Single Pop. Sharing in Eurogenes K15:

    RISE487 (3483-3107 BC) - I2a1a1 - T699825 - Sardinians
    RISE489 (2908-2578 BC) - I2a1a1a - T135721 - Sardinians
    RISE486 (2134-1773 BC) - I2a1a1a - T319214 - Sardinians

    Simply SHOCKING !!! "Genetical Sardinians" everywhere. And a few Basques. But no any R1b.

    See also:
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...n+Chalcolithic


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

  8. #33
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    10-10-16
    Posts
    37
    Points
    2,270
    Level
    13
    Points: 2,270, Level: 13
    Level completed: 40%, Points required for next Level: 180
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Australia



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    To me the abstract makes it clear that BB was spread to Central Europe by ideas not genetics so the Central European BB is a different group genetically than the Iberian BB. That's what I'm interpreting from what the abstract says. I don't know why they would state what they did otherwise.

    Britain got their Bell Beakers from Central Europe by an influx of people. It was fairly obvious from the previous paper on Rathlin.

  9. #34
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteranTagger First Class50000 Experience PointsRecommendation First Class
    Awards:
    Discussion Ender
    LeBrok's Avatar
    Join Date
    18-11-09
    Location
    Calgary
    Posts
    10,329
    Points
    110,111
    Level
    100
    Points: 110,111, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b Z2109
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1c

    Ethnic group
    Citizen of the world
    Country: Canada-Alberta



    Quote Originally Posted by Elizabeth60 View Post
    To me the abstract makes it clear that BB was spread to Central Europe by ideas not genetics so the Central European BB is a different group genetically than the Iberian BB. That's what I'm interpreting from what the abstract says. I don't know why they would state what they did otherwise.

    Britain got their Bell Beakers from Central Europe by an influx of people. It was fairly obvious from the previous paper on Rathlin.
    Exactly how I understood too.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

  10. #35
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteranTagger First Class50000 Experience PointsRecommendation First Class
    Awards:
    Discussion Ender
    LeBrok's Avatar
    Join Date
    18-11-09
    Location
    Calgary
    Posts
    10,329
    Points
    110,111
    Level
    100
    Points: 110,111, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b Z2109
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1c

    Ethnic group
    Citizen of the world
    Country: Canada-Alberta



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I don't have much in my files for autosomal results for Iberian Chalcolithic. This is it; the data is from Tomenable. Anyone have more?

    Simply SHOCKING !!! "Genetical Sardinians" everywhere. And a few Basques. But no any R1b.

    See also:
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...n+Chalcolithic
    I found 3 samples to compare, first one is Iberian Chalcolithic, second Iberian Bronze Age, third one is German Bell Beaker to compare. The third one is way different.
    We can see that there is some change from Iberian Chalcolithic to Bronze Age, however the Bronze Age sample is not the highest quality, and might be misleading.
    I think, I estimated some time ago that if there was BA invasion into Spain it would be more from Hungarian Bronze/Baden than CW area.

    Do we have other BA Iberian sample on GedMatch?

    M422959 ATP 16 M116706 ATP9 M324645 I0112
    Spain Pre BB, 3kya Spain 1.7kya, BA BellBeaker
    Run Time 6.67 Run Time 4.28 Run time 11.21
    S-Indian - S-Indian - S-Indian -
    Baloch - Baloch - Baloch 10.96
    Caucasian 6.72 Caucasian 7.33 Caucasian 1.59
    NE-Euro 20.52 NE-Euro 36.77 NE-Euro 54.14
    SE-Asian - SE-Asian - SE-Asian 0.06
    Siberian - Siberian - Siberian -
    NE-Asian - NE-Asian - NE-Asian -
    Papuan - Papuan - Papuan 0.23
    American - American - American 0.3
    Beringian - Beringian - Beringian 0.1
    Mediterranean 69.97 Mediterranean 55.74 Mediterranean 32.4
    SW-Asian 2.53 SW-Asian - SW-Asian -
    San - San - San -
    E-African - E-African - E-African -
    Pygmy - Pygmy - Pygmy -
    W-African 0.21 W-African 0.15 W-African 0.19

  11. #36
    Regular Member Achievements:
    5000 Experience PointsVeteran
    berun's Avatar
    Join Date
    24-11-15
    Posts
    1,083
    Points
    8,654
    Level
    27
    Points: 8,654, Level: 27
    Level completed: 84%, Points required for next Level: 96
    Overall activity: 10.0%


    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    Quote Originally Posted by Elizabeth60 View Post
    To me the abstract makes it clear that BB was spread to Central Europe by ideas not genetics so the Central European BB is a different group genetically than the Iberian BB. That's what I'm interpreting from what the abstract says. I don't know why they would state what they did otherwise.

    Britain got their Bell Beakers from Central Europe by an influx of people. It was fairly obvious from the previous paper on Rathlin.
    If so how do you explain the decrease of steppe ancestry and the change in Y-DNA?

  12. #37
    Regular Member Achievements:
    5000 Experience PointsVeteran
    berun's Avatar
    Join Date
    24-11-15
    Posts
    1,083
    Points
    8,654
    Level
    27
    Points: 8,654, Level: 27
    Level completed: 84%, Points required for next Level: 96
    Overall activity: 10.0%


    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    Quote Originally Posted by Olympus Mons View Post
    But berun,
    BB arrived to Bohemia and Central Germany, the ones they extract DNA from, not more than 100 years after arrival of BB to the area. Prob less. So how does that math work?!

    Note: come to think of it...what is the dating for those samples that they extracted Dna?
    So you need an example. Imagine a Ferreira arriving in Germany marrying there a local woman with 70% of Viking blood. The majority of women there are locals so this kind of case is quite commonplace. Their son will keep R1b but also a 35% Viking autosomal. If the son marries thereafter a local woman as is the most abundant source and is how prevents endogamy of little aloctone clans the grandson will have somewhat near half Viking in autosomals.

  13. #38
    Regular Member Achievements:
    5000 Experience PointsVeteran
    berun's Avatar
    Join Date
    24-11-15
    Posts
    1,083
    Points
    8,654
    Level
    27
    Points: 8,654, Level: 27
    Level completed: 84%, Points required for next Level: 96
    Overall activity: 10.0%


    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    @Angela, the posted samples are all pre Bell Beaker.

  14. #39
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    10-10-16
    Posts
    37
    Points
    2,270
    Level
    13
    Points: 2,270, Level: 13
    Level completed: 40%, Points required for next Level: 180
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    If so how do you explain the decrease of steppe ancestry and the change in Y-DNA?
    I'm just paraphrasing what the abstract says. Hopefully it will all be explained when the actual paper is released. :)

  15. #40
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    8,689
    Points
    680,935
    Level
    100
    Points: 680,935, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 12.0%


    Ethnic group
    Italo-celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Promenade View Post
    Can someone explain to me if I understood this correctly?

    "In contrast to people of the Corded Ware Complex who were partly contemporaries of the BBC in central and eastern Europe and who brought steppe ancestry into central Europe through mass migration and replacement of local populations, we show that the initial spread of the BBC into central Europe from the Iberian Peninsula was not mediated by a large-scale migration but rather through communication of ideas. However, the further spread of the BBC beyond central Europe did involve mass movement of people."

    SoReich is saying that the spread of the Bell Beaker Culture from Iberia to Central Europe was mostly material and not genetic, but the people who adopted the Bell Beaker Culture in Central Europe would lead a genetic and material replacement of people and culture in the British Isles, right?

    "The arrival of the BBC in Britain can thus be viewed as the western continuation of the massive movement of people that brought the Corded Ware Complex and steppe ancestry into central Europe a few hundred years before."

    And here he is saying that these Central Europeans that adopted the Bell Beaker Culture in central Europe and spread it to the British isles were genetically similar to the people of the Corded Ware and shared their steppe ancestry?
    That's exactly how I understood it. But since Bell Beaker pottery originated in Chalcolithic Iberia and then spread through trade or minor migrations around western and central Europe, this pottery style ceased to be associated with one specific ethnic/genetic group. That is why it is senseless to be talking about 'Bell Beaker people'. Anybody who uses that terms does not understand it. It would like like saying people from industrialised countries today and expect that they are of European descent, even though many East Asian countries are now just as industrialised. The link between technology and ethnicity has vanished when the technology starting spread far and wide.


    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    They said Bell Beaker not Unetice brought Steppe ancestry to Britain.


    Then it means that the Reich team does not understand what I explained above (and you neither). It's fine to talk of Starcevo people, of Yamna people, or Corded Ware people, as they belonged to an ethnic culture. But the Bell Beaker culture is one of the first non-ethnic cultures.
    My book selection---Follow me on Facebook and Twitter --- My profile on Academia.edu and on ResearchGate ----Check Wa-pedia's Japan Guide
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "What is the use of living, if it be not to strive for noble causes and to make this muddled world a better place for those who will live in it after we are gone?", Winston Churchill.

  16. #41
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    10-10-16
    Posts
    37
    Points
    2,270
    Level
    13
    Points: 2,270, Level: 13
    Level completed: 40%, Points required for next Level: 180
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Australia



    Regarding the ydna I'm presuming it will be R1b. Yamnaya were R1b-M269 and as the Yamnaya horizon is quite large I'm sure it is not a leap of faith to presume R1b-L51 might be found somewhere between the Steppes and Central Europe. Also I don't see any problem with BB being 50% Steppe as they obviously mixed with EEF types. I'm sure the paper will clarify some of these questions once it is released.

  17. #42
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    10-10-16
    Posts
    37
    Points
    2,270
    Level
    13
    Points: 2,270, Level: 13
    Level completed: 40%, Points required for next Level: 180
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    That's exactly how I understood it. But since Bell Beaker pottery originated in Chalcolithic Iberia and then spread through trade or minor migrations around western and central Europe, this pottery style ceased to be associated with one specific ethnic/genetic group. That is why it is senseless to be talking about 'Bell Beaker people'. Anybody who uses that terms does not understand it. It would like like saying people from industrialised countries today and expect that they are of European descent, even though many East Asian countries are now just as industrialised. The link between technology and ethnicity has vanished when the technology starting spread far and wide.
    Aren't German Bell Beakers virtually identical to British/Irish Bell Beakers? The earlier Bell Beakers from the Iberian Penisular are genetically different. I guess discussing this when only an abstract has been released is a bit presumptuous. This is only an appetizer to what will hopefully answer a lot of people's questions.

  18. #43
    Regular Member Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends25000 Experience Points
    Sile's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-09-11
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    5,120
    Points
    29,699
    Level
    52
    Points: 29,699, Level: 52
    Level completed: 96%, Points required for next Level: 51
    Overall activity: 37.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1 ..Pannoni

    Ethnic group
    North Alpine Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    That's exactly how I understood it. But since Bell Beaker pottery originated in Chalcolithic Iberia and then spread through trade or minor migrations around western and central Europe, this pottery style ceased to be associated with one specific ethnic/genetic group. That is why it is senseless to be talking about 'Bell Beaker people'. Anybody who uses that terms does not understand it. It would like like saying people from industrialised countries today and expect that they are of European descent, even though many East Asian countries are now just as industrialised. The link between technology and ethnicity has vanished when the technology starting spread far and wide.




    Then it means that the Reich team does not understand what I explained above (and you neither). It's fine to talk of Starcevo people, of Yamna people, or Corded Ware people, as they belonged to an ethnic culture. But the Bell Beaker culture is one of the first non-ethnic cultures.
    I agree........many thousands of years before BB potters there where other "potters", from LBK in germany as an example.

    logically, these LBK potters just learnt a new style of "BB potting" from a trader or some immigrants......so there is no guarantee that there was mass BB migration into germany due to potting styles.

    a potter in ancient times or modern times will take just one day to learn a new style of potting
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

  19. #44
    MarkoZ
    Guest


    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    If so how do you explain the decrease of steppe ancestry and the change in Y-DNA?
    A decrease in 'steppe' ancestry could be the result of a different migration route of BB's paternal ancestors. We'd be talking about a route through Ukraine, the Carpathians into Hungary and ex-Yugoslavia culminating in Vucedol culture which has its epicenter in North-Eastern Croatia. Naturally, due to higher population densities the potential to pick up foreign aDNA would be greater than in the north.

    Now, I consider that unlikely due to the complete absence of Z2103 in Western Europe as per Balanovsky, and the French centrality of L51 and S116, but ultimately we'll need ancient samples to shed light on this.

    It seems that the talk about aDNA is ultimately a waste of time when it comes to BB, if the pattern in the Lech paper is indicative of broad cultural trends within the Beaker horizon. If more than 50% of all women were foreigners at any given time, the genetic makeup could be completely changed within just a few generations.

  20. #45
    MarkoZ
    Guest


    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    I agree........many thousands of years before BB potters there where other "potters", from LBK in germany as an example.

    logically, these LBK potters just learnt a new style of "BB potting" from a trader or some immigrants......so there is no guarantee that there was mass BB migration into germany due to potting styles.

    a potter in ancient times or modern times will take just one day to learn a new style of potting
    The problem with this is that BB pottery didn't convey any discernible advantages. In fact it was quite ugly looking and generally badly made when compared to some of the painted pottery traditions of the Neolithic.

  21. #46
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    Most Popular
    bicicleur's Avatar
    Join Date
    27-01-13
    Location
    Zwevegem, Belgium
    Posts
    5,230
    Points
    41,054
    Level
    62
    Points: 41,054, Level: 62
    Level completed: 55%, Points required for next Level: 596
    Overall activity: 40.0%


    Country: Belgium - Flanders



    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    I found 3 samples to compare, first one is Iberian Chalcolithic, second Iberian Bronze Age, third one is German Bell Beaker to compare. The third one is way different.
    We can see that there is some change from Iberian Chalcolithic to Bronze Age, however the Bronze Age sample is not the highest quality, and might be misleading.
    I think, I estimated some time ago that if there was BA invasion into Spain it would be more from Hungarian Bronze/Baden than CW area.

    Do we have other BA Iberian sample on GedMatch?
    there was an invasion into Iberia which initiated the BA, look at the history of El Argar
    but the invasion of the El Argar people and the Iberian BA postdates the initial Central European BB, your sample too, it is I guess 3.7 ka (not 1.7 ka)
    if Iberian BB were not immigrants to Iberia, they were Iberian CA

  22. #47
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    Most Popular
    bicicleur's Avatar
    Join Date
    27-01-13
    Location
    Zwevegem, Belgium
    Posts
    5,230
    Points
    41,054
    Level
    62
    Points: 41,054, Level: 62
    Level completed: 55%, Points required for next Level: 596
    Overall activity: 40.0%


    Country: Belgium - Flanders



    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    I agree........many thousands of years before BB potters there where other "potters", from LBK in germany as an example.

    logically, these LBK potters just learnt a new style of "BB potting" from a trader or some immigrants......so there is no guarantee that there was mass BB migration into germany due to potting styles.

    a potter in ancient times or modern times will take just one day to learn a new style of potting
    there is style and there is technique
    a potter can easily take over a new style without learning the new technique (tempering materials, baking methods, ..)
    it often happened and archeology can tell the difference
    but I don't know about different techniques in BB
    it has been suggested though that the pottery was made by the women

  23. #48
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    Most Popular
    bicicleur's Avatar
    Join Date
    27-01-13
    Location
    Zwevegem, Belgium
    Posts
    5,230
    Points
    41,054
    Level
    62
    Points: 41,054, Level: 62
    Level completed: 55%, Points required for next Level: 596
    Overall activity: 40.0%


    Country: Belgium - Flanders



    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    If so how do you explain the decrease of steppe ancestry and the change in Y-DNA?
    a hypothetical possibility would be a tiny BB colony like Csepl merging with a larger culture of steppe origin, like Vucedol

  24. #49
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second Class1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    04-09-16
    Posts
    491
    Points
    1,328
    Level
    9
    Points: 1,328, Level: 9
    Level completed: 89%, Points required for next Level: 22
    Overall activity: 29.0%


    Country: Portugal



    @Maciamo,
    All studies done with Nmdentral traits says south France, Switzerland, Hungary BB folk were different from local populations. It will need a lot of aDna to turn that fact/postulation. If those were of a different stock then where did they come from?

    On the other hand, is Reich saying that the transition of those Iberian BB that were in Switzerland, when they crossed the alps and went to central Europe they did not replace people, but actually sold them their way of life? I means either kidnapped and Rapped their women from each other.

    So, if reich has good adna from Iberia, south France, western Atlantic France and Switzerland and they show that bell beaker were from different stock of each other... than ok. He is absolutely right on stating it as he did.

  25. #50
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    8,689
    Points
    680,935
    Level
    100
    Points: 680,935, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 12.0%


    Ethnic group
    Italo-celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    Quote Originally Posted by Olympus Mons View Post
    @Maciamo,
    All studies done with Nmdentral traits says south France, Switzerland, Hungary BB folk were different from local populations. It will need a lot of aDna to turn that fact/postulation. If those were of a different stock then where did they come from?
    Were BB also different from the locals in Portugal or other parts of Iberia? If BB spread from Portugal to the rest of western and central Europe, then it would make sense that these BB people were autosomally like Chalcolithic Portuguese, and therefore somewhat different from Chalcolithic French, Swiss, Hungarian, etc. I don't see any problem with that. Do you know of any study that say that BB people in France or Iberia had dental traits like those of Corded Ware people?

    Another explanation for the different traits in BB people compared to locals is that Bell Beaker pottery was spread by merchants travelling around Europe. The BB pots probably contained something of value inside. I am not sure if enough DNA has been preserved inside to determine what it was, but it's possible that the content wasn't the same in Iberia and Central Europe.

Page 2 of 9 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •