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Thread: The Bell Beaker by Olalde and Reich et al. 2017

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    actualy, it is fase II of La Bastida which is proto - El Argar

    https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Bastida_de_Totana

    fase II was built after fase I was burnt down (2000 BC)

    and the fortifications and architecture are like Troj/BA Levant/BA Mesopotamia as in a paper commented by Dienekes a few years ago

    and the same style was used in El Argar

    in fase I Bell Beaker ceramics were found
    which paper so?
    "What I've seen so far after my entire career chasing Indoeuropeans is that our solutions look tissue thin and our problems still look monumental" J.P.Mallory

    "The ultimate homeland of the group [PIE] that also spread Anatolian languages is less clear." D. Reich

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    It's quite amazing how the steppe religion can change understanding: with my inperfect English I understand that "rather" in "the initial spread of the BBC into central Europe from the Iberian Peninsula was not mediated by a large-scale migration but rather through communication of ideas" means in a lower degree, but the Yamnayists understand somethink like "there was no genetic admixture from Iberia in Central European BB".

    For the merry tale about women learning in a day to do pots, I'm amazed also about the quickness to display how to change weapons to the CW people (arrows, Palmela points, daggers) to a population used to make stone axes, yes, I imagine how the BB people would train the CW people armed with axes: shooting them first a good rain of arrows as example, and those that were able to survive it enjoyed a second lesson about how to use a dagger in the most mortal body points (of course with a first-person example).

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    which paper so?
    search Dienekes

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    Also it's quite amazing the history about steppe warriors of a kind of R1b not found in the steppe that had a different autosomal composition because, of course, traveled just south (the evident cause was surely an internal apartheid as R1a and R1b didn't mixed in their paths), thereafter they were so impressed by the BB pots that they just took off all their cultural traits (but keeping their language), and once they reached Iberia replaced the commoners (but the women weren't able to adapt to the hushing language of their husbands and lerant Basque to their children). Fine. Which tittle has this tale?

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    @bicicleur, and what was there new that was not 1000 years before in South Portugal ? look before at WALLS, GATES AND TOWERS. FORTIFIED SETTLEMENTS IN THE SOUTH AND CENTRE OF PORTUGAL: SOME NOTES ABOUT VIOLENCE AND WALLS IN THE 3rd MILLENIUM BCE

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    @Berun,
    I think Reich paper just wanted to give us more aDna that confirms what we know for very, very, long.
    a. BB came out of Iberia.

    b. We all know that they were not a massive replace of local populations. actually they kept abay. as local population tended to cluster around rivers, they maintained the tradition seen in south portugal (mercador, juromenha) and spain (la pijotilla, san blas) and in Zambujal, leceia and VNSP to always look for a small hill or mound and have the High ground. Specially spread in a distance that they could actually see the others, and then the others a mile or so away...smart dudes.

    c. They moved to a place in a group of males. then females would be ferried to them there. By the low mixing they showed for centuries, one would presume BB women were the ones ferried to them.

    d. so, when in Switzerland, things seemed to change. There even locals were changing and BB seemed to not halt in there the ferried of women from behind.

    e. When the BB got into Central Europe, that transition was mediated by a cultural transition, because the homogeneity disappeared. And there was a good exogamy. It seems as if it was to far way to ferry many women so they needed local women and they got it from CWC.

    f. From that point on, contrary to what had happened to the earlier Iberian BB up until Switzerland and even Czepel, the half breeds with CWC were a group of mean SOBs that replaced the local admix completely.

    See that is all that reich is saying… I mean he says himself he is just stating facts of genetics…and it confirms what we know for a decade… even better. Its just that our different sensitivities to it makes us read more than it is to read. :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron1981 View Post
    Admixture from residual LBK groups in central Europe prior to moving to Britain. That's what the Rathlin paper suggested. I suspect the new paper will say the same. This isn't difficult folks. tr0lling for the sake of tr0lling and being contrary for the sake of it isn't beneficial.

    The latest paper concluding that BB spreading to central Europe from Iberia via ideas rather than genetics is an argument against R1b arriving from Iberia. All the central European BB have been derived for L23+. None of the genetic results will prove anything beyond a doubt, but the arguments have certainly been suggestive.

    R1b arrived in Britain from Germany/Czech during the Bronze Age with BB, and modern Brits are a very closer match to these people. Nothing else is being concluded in the paper, and frankly, nothing else is relevant.
    I doubt a typically LBK pop would have had a strong demic input upon British BB's (at first) as well for phenotypical reasons as for auDNA ones; their human stock seems rather come from Northwestern Alps and Rhine lands (+ Westphalen); their dolicho's (rarest) elements were on the CWC side, and I think some among the labelled 'EEF' mt-DNA found among CWC could be in fact a long stage North Pontic one, so with proper auDNA drifts compared to cousin mtDNA stayed South Caucasus and Anatolia -

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    What amazes me more about the BB people is how fast they spread: by 2500 in the Rhône Valley, by 2450 in the Rhin bassin, by 2400 in England and Central Europe and thereafter spreading further.

    The abstract says that BB changed completely autosomals in Britain, but it was by profiting an empty space or by force...? if the second option was the case, what would prevent to do the same in other areas?

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    too small and uneven samples for huge territories with local stories; long time span between first and last BB's - lack of samples from all megalithic regions (particularly NW Iberia and France) - I know the work is hard: BB's settlement shew variations by time, with first "pure" BB's and then starlike developpment of acculturated firstly not-BB's people (well illustrated in S-E France, but not by force the truth everywhere) - strongly new phenotypes in some first settlements and dilution after (like in S France) - I put "-" for "pure" because the so typical BB's of CSW Germany (Worms) = the prototype, were maybe a between pop controlling Rhône and Rhine between SW Iberia and North Europe, and perhaps not the genuine first BB's who knows?...
    I fear we 'll be a bit disappointed by results after so long waiting, for the reasons I wrote above -

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    @bicicleur, and what was there new that was not 1000 years before in South Portugal ? look before at WALLS, GATES AND TOWERS. FORTIFIED SETTLEMENTS IN THE SOUTH AND CENTRE OF PORTUGAL: SOME NOTES ABOUT VIOLENCE AND WALLS IN THE 3rd MILLENIUM BCE
    interesting, but what is your point here? THat first BB's were the builders of these fortresses? Just to know. It seems they began their defined BB's life outside these walls, before coming inside to live at first in well marked quarters, at the beginning (or before their pots and maybe some pots makers come inside) Cardoso's works? - hard question.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Finally, some clarity.

    From their abstract, for them to conclude that beaker pots didn't move to Central Europe with a mass movement of people, there shouldn't be much, if any, autosomal difference between Iberian Beaker and pre-steppe Central European Copper Age people, yes? I highly doubt the Reich Lab would make a mistake like this, but we'll see when the Iberian Beaker samples are released.

    As for copper technology in Iberia, I highly doubt it's a local development; there's no indication of that in the archaeology. I've been arguing since the days of dna-forums that it either arrived directly from the Balkans or by diffusion along the north Mediterranean coast. It had nothing to do with the steppe. Even if there was a migration of some people, since everyone was generally "Sardinian like" genetically, you might not be able to distinguish between them.

    @OM,

    Why on earth would they make claims about Iberian Beakers if they have no samples?
    Agree for the most: Copper surely has nothing to do with Steppes in Europe (and maybe elsewhere) - the El Argar complex shows ties with Eastern mediterranean but before them Chalco people - as you say Copper work could be come from East-Central Europe (Hungaria, and earlier Balkans), whatever the road: Adriatic or/and North Mediterranea Sea, over lands across Italy - but I think the launching of copper mining in West began on the impulse of knowledged people from East or South-East and doesn't seem linked to Megalithers at first -

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    Also it's quite amazing the history about steppe warriors of a kind of R1b not found in the steppe that had a different autosomal composition because, of course, traveled just south (the evident cause was surely an internal apartheid as R1a and R1b didn't mixed in their paths), thereafter they were so impressed by the BB pots that they just took off all their cultural traits (but keeping their language), and once they reached Iberia replaced the commoners (but the women weren't able to adapt to the hushing language of their husbands and lerant Basque to their children). Fine. Which tittle has this tale?
    I've no religion to date - but Y-R1b could have been cutted off by Y-R1a introgression in N-E and CN Europe (CWC) and some Y-R1b pre-L51 stay South the Carpathians rather than North? For language, at this stage we know almost nothing.

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    Distinct cultural traditions must have existed in Eastern Bell Beaker if they were basically local MN-Steppe hybrids who adopted a pottery style from their western neighbors. I would guess that the Eastern Beaker folk practiced many Steppe cultural traditions: Pastoralism, Nomadism, single inhumataion burials?

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    In terms of mtDNA Neolithic Iberians and Neolithic Central Europeans differ little but do differ. One significant difference, in the samples we have so far, the Iberians have a lot more H1-H3 and basically completely lack N1a1a. German Bell Beaker had a decent amount of H1-H3. They definitely could have had Neo Iberian ancestry.

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    @Moesan,
    Maybe this have written a while back is interesting to understand.

    "a. So, what we know is that prior to the rise of Bell beakers, at the exact same spot near Lisbon area, we had a warrior elite. There is a not very much talked about artisan place, Arruda dos Pisôes (http://tp.revistas.csic.es/index.php...ewFile/303/303) , just north of VNSP and where they made the not that famous but should be famous given the interest in Bell beakers large bifacial flaked daggers something for all purposes nonfunctional, ritualistic and Symbolic …and completely useless… Hence they were only found at local burials just like later the Copper daggers of Bell beakers.
    This is something to add to the “Copos” they also made in the region, pottery cups on their way to become bell beakers pottery that was found earlier than anywhere else in the exact same region. Bell beaker dispersal occurred when the “War” was over, because it happen at a point when people started to abandon the Fortified places and moved to open ground by 2800BC, after a period of something like 5 centuries, half a millenia, where they lived beneath the power and sway of fortified places."

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    just another fact on those very long daggers of Arruda dos Pisôes... the production was made there but the daggers were handed over to the owner, that would polished it and then at time of burial there they were, huge and shining. ...So if someone is thinking where bell beakers got the fixation for daggers...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    I would guess that the Eastern Beaker folk practiced many Steppe cultural traditions: Pastoralism, Nomadism, single inhumataion burials?
    You guessed wrong. Western Beaker is completely elusive in that there are no actual settlements - the BB bearers usually just repurpose existing megalithic or flat graves, indicating that they didn't settle for long periods. Most of the time that repurposing entailed one or two Beakers burials being inserted into an abandoned Megalithic collective grave. That's why some archaeologists refer to BB as a phenomenon rather than a material culture in the strict sense. The first proper Bell Beaker settlement appears in Bavaria, associated with the Bohemian group. Though here also Beaker people constitute minority like everywhere else except parts of the Atlantic coast.

    Single burials and the pastoral economies are found all over Europe in the Late Neolithic/Chalcolithic. This is what makes this period quite vexing - it is for this reason that Gimbutas, Mallory, Heyd and others posited an early steppe introgression reaching even westernmost Europe already in the 4th millennium BC. Hence Baalberge, Baden, Remedello, Maritime Beaker and so forth were often considered 'kurganized' due to their inventories of copper axes, statue menhirs & single male burials. Obviously this is falsified by ancient DNA and adjusted radiocarbon dates which often predate those of parallel developments in Russia, so the source must be sought somewhere else.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    interesting, but what is your point here? THat first BB's were the builders of these fortresses? Just to know. It seems they began their defined BB's life outside these walls, before coming inside to live at first in well marked quarters, at the beginning (or before their pots and maybe some pots makers come inside) Cardoso's works? - hard question.
    The fortresses were build some centuries before the BB culture... South Iberia had a increase of population (there are vilages of some hectares). If the "ecosystem" that maintained such population failed you know what usualy happens... war lords start their work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    @bicicleur, and what was there new that was not 1000 years before in South Portugal ? look before at WALLS, GATES AND TOWERS. FORTIFIED SETTLEMENTS IN THE SOUTH AND CENTRE OF PORTUGAL: SOME NOTES ABOUT VIOLENCE AND WALLS IN THE 3rd MILLENIUM BCE
    the timing and the architecture

    The great building programmes were implemented at the beginning of the life of
    these settlements, mainly dating from the end of the first quarter of the third millennium
    BCE.

    Walls, doors and towers. Fortified settlements in the south and centre of Portugal: some notes about violence and walls in the 3rd millenium BCE. (PDF Download Available). Available from: https://www.researchgate.net/publica..._millenium_BCE [accessed May 6, 2017].

    some were even late 4th millenium

    Zambujal II was 2000 BC

    Check Dieneke

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympus Mons View Post
    @Berun,
    I think Reich paper just wanted to give us more aDna that confirms what we know for very, very, long.
    a. BB came out of Iberia.

    b. We all know that they were not a massive replace of local populations. actually they kept abay. as local population tended to cluster around rivers, they maintained the tradition seen in south portugal (mercador, juromenha) and spain (la pijotilla, san blas) and in Zambujal, leceia and VNSP to always look for a small hill or mound and have the High ground. Specially spread in a distance that they could actually see the others, and then the others a mile or so away...smart dudes.

    c. They moved to a place in a group of males. then females would be ferried to them there. By the low mixing they showed for centuries, one would presume BB women were the ones ferried to them.

    d. so, when in Switzerland, things seemed to change. There even locals were changing and BB seemed to not halt in there the ferried of women from behind.

    e. When the BB got into Central Europe, that transition was mediated by a cultural transition, because the homogeneity disappeared. And there was a good exogamy. It seems as if it was to far way to ferry many women so they needed local women and they got it from CWC.

    f. From that point on, contrary to what had happened to the earlier Iberian BB up until Switzerland and even Czepel, the half breeds with CWC were a group of mean SOBs that replaced the local admix completely.

    See that is all that reich is saying… I mean he says himself he is just stating facts of genetics…and it confirms what we know for a decade… even better. Its just that our different sensitivities to it makes us read more than it is to read. :)
    were exactly did BB meet CWC ?
    was there CWC in the Carpathian Basin ? in Moldavia ?
    what do you think about exchange between Csepl and Vucedol ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympus Mons View Post
    just another fact on those very long daggers of Arruda dos Pisôes... the production was made there but the daggers were handed over to the owner, that would polished it and then at time of burial there they were, huge and shining. ...So if someone is thinking where bell beakers got the fixation for daggers...
    so stone daggers coppied by BB in copper?
    and 2800 BC a switch from warring societies to the BB trading societies?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    were exactly did BB meet CWC ?
    was there CWC in the Carpathian Basin ? in Moldavia ?
    what do you think about exchange between Csepl and Vucedol ?
    Bicicleur,
    The reason Johannes Krause chose Augsburg for the upcoming paper is because that is because that is exactly where CWC met BB (from petit chasseur ) . Those Swiss BB (still southern kind as per Desoderi and Marie Besse) were the ones entering first in contact with CWC.

    Lets see what Johannes Krause says about that encounter….

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    the timing and the architecture

    The great building programmes were implemented at the beginning of the life of
    these settlements, mainly dating from the end of the first quarter of the third millennium
    BCE.

    Walls, doors and towers. Fortified settlements in the south and centre of Portugal: some notes about violence and walls in the 3rd millenium BCE. (PDF Download Available). Available from: https://www.researchgate.net/publica..._millenium_BCE [accessed May 6, 2017].

    some were even late 4th millenium

    Zambujal II was 2000 BC

    Check Dieneke
    If 3300 BC is not old enough for you, you can look at Los Millares instead to Dienekes...
    Last edited by berun; 06-05-17 at 19:17.

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    If 3300 BC is not old enough for you, you can look at Los Millares instead to Dienekes...
    so you think 1300 years later in Zambujal, those were still the same people?
    and all of a sudden they had new architecture, new burial rituals and knew know-how (bronze) ?
    and before constructing their fortress they burn down the village of their neighbours for 2000 years ?

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    You said that Argarians came from the Aegean by their defensive architecture, I just expose that such techniques were known many centuries before in Iberia. I'm not pointing to any ethnic origin / change / continuity, it was not the discussion.

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