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Thread: The Bell Beaker by Olalde and Reich et al. 2017

  1. #126
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    Yes it's amazing how a lab supposedly interested to settle down the origin of BB is not testing more SNPs in Iberian R1b without steppe mix. They just don't consider dates, dental traits and mtDNA proofs. And when they process admixtures they are not capable to find Iberian-like EEF autosomals where they previously recoginze there was (Britain and France). Just I need bisteak of holy cow now!
    "What I've seen so far after my entire career chasing Indoeuropeans is that our solutions look tissue thin and our problems still look monumental" J.P.Mallory

    "The ultimate homeland of the group [PIE] that also spread Anatolian languages is less clear." D. Reich

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    they found mtdna h3 in one of the neolithic britian samples
    specifically in orkney dated to 3700-3380 bc I2796
    that is so cool they made my day
    :)))):))))
    many of the neolithic brits belong to y haplogroup i-m170

    than came the bell beakers and change things :)


  3. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    Yes it's amazing how a lab supposedly interested to settle down the origin of BB is not testing more SNPs in Iberian R1b without steppe mix. They just don't consider dates, dental traits and mtDNA proofs. And when they process admixtures they are not capable to find Iberian-like EEF autosomals where they previously recoginze there was (Britain and France). Just I need bisteak of holy cow now!
    Well 50% R1b1 in the Barcelona Beakers means that at the very least the people who kept saying that Iberian BB would turn out to be unformly I2/G2a have been very wrong. I'm not even sure whether all of those samples are true Beakers and not just random Megalithic remains.

    Though that doesn't tell us much about the origin of L51. Among the samples in the paper is an early L51 Beaker from Marlens in southern France whom the authors model as ~20% steppe admixed. I think more samples from these regions might clarify whether his y-DNA was local or came from the east.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkoZ View Post
    Though that doesn't tell us much about the origin of L51. Among the samples in the paper is an early L51 Beaker from Marlens in southern France whom the authors model as ~20% steppe admixed. I think more samples from these regions might clarify whether his y-DNA was local or came from the east.
    I googled the locations in France where the French Beaker Y DNA is from and it is all along France's border with Germany and Switzerland. Pretty far away from Spain. The U152>L2 results in East French, German, Hungarian Beakers indicates Eastern Beaker was U152>L2 and that North Italian U152>L2 might have first arrived with Beaker folk.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    I googled the locations in France where the French Beaker Y DNA is from and it is all along France's border with Germany and Switzerland. Pretty far away from Spain. The U152>L2 results in East French, German, Hungarian Beakers indicates Eastern Beaker was U152>L2 and that North Italian U152>L2 might have first arrived with Beaker folk.
    I was referring to the earlier Marlens sample.

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    I'm not capable to find the information leaked a year ago in the BB paper:

    The genetic study of human remains from the site analyzed Cerdanyola has yielded positive results in 11 samples and it has been determined sex, AND mitochondrial chromosome Y (in the male individuals), family relations, the physical characteristics and external population affinities with other contemporary groups. Two of the samples correspond to first-degree relatives of females (two sisters, mother and daughter ...). It has also been told, for example, that a woman do not tolerate lactose and another had brown eyes.

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    from the paper itself:

    A new finding that emerges from our analysis is that Neolithic individuals from southern France and Britain also show a greater affinity to Iberian Early Neolithic farmers than to central European Early Neolithic farmers (Fig. 2b), similar to previous results obtained in a Neolithic farmer genome from Ireland28.
    Maybe this could be linked to the previous Megalithic cultures... but:

    The distinctive genetic signatures of pre-Beaker Complex populations in Iberia compared to central Europe allow us to test formally for the origin of the Neolithic farmer-related ancestry in Beaker Complex individuals in our dataset (Supplementary Information, section 6). We grouped
    individuals from Iberia (n=19) and from outside Iberia (n=84) to increase power, and evaluated the fit of different Neolithic/Copper Age groups with qpAdm under the model: Yamnaya + Neolithic/Copper Age. ... Conversely, the Neolithic farmer-related ancestry in Beaker Complex individuals outside Iberia was most closely related to central and northern European Neolithic populations with relatively high hunter-gatherer admixture (e.g. Globular_Amphora_LN, P = 0.14; TRB_Sweden_MN, P = 0.29), and we could significantly exclude Iberian sources (P < 3.18E-08) (Fig. 2c). These results support largely different origins for Beaker Complex individuals, with no discernible Iberia-related ancestry outside Iberia.
    I understand well? even computing all non-Iberian farmers (with those with Iberian-like ancestry in France and UK) they were not capable to find a little "Iberian" track in them?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    from the paper itself:



    Maybe this could be linked to the previous Megalithic cultures... but:



    I understand well? even computing all non-Iberian farmers (with those with Iberian-like ancestry in France and UK) they were not capable to find a little "Iberian" track in them?
    initially farming was introduced in eastern England by people coming from the old LBK area (middle Germany, Belgium, northern France) and the Swifterbant people (Rhine - Meuse - Scheldt delta)
    then megalithic farmers from Atlantic France and Britanny took over in western England and the area around the Irish Sea

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    Bell Beakers from NL 9, HU 8, CZ 2, UK 18, D 32, PL 3, F 9 = 81 continental samples (UK samples were already mixed from CE). If the French samples would per example some 70 maybe results would be different? but with such origin for the samples of course the major Neolithic genetic imput will be LBK-like (if it would be done the contrary, some 70 samples from South France and some 10 from North Europe, surely the Neolithic origin would seem rather different).

    Attachment 8677

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    https://twitter.com/iosif_lazaridis/...869120/photo/1

    It seems the Bell Beaker arrivals in south east England from central Europe had a very high amount of steppe related ancestry

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    The distinctive genetic signatures of pre-Beaker Complex populations in Iberia compared to central Europe allow us to test formally for the origin of the Neolithic farmer-related ancestry in Beaker Complex individuals in our dataset (Supplementary Information, section 6). We grouped
    individuals from Iberia (n=19) and from outside Iberia (n=84) to increase power, and evaluated the fit of different Neolithic/Copper Age groups with qpAdm under the model: Yamnaya + Neolithic/Copper Age. ... Conversely, the Neolithic farmer-related ancestry in Beaker Complex individuals outside Iberia was most closely related to central and northern European Neolithic populations with relatively high hunter-gatherer admixture (e.g. Globular_Amphora_LN, P = 0.14; TRB_Sweden_MN, P = 0.29), and we could significantly exclude Iberian sources (P < 3.18E-08) (Fig. 2c). These results support largely different origins for Beaker Complex individuals, with no discernible Iberia-related ancestry outside Iberia.
    Changing Iberia for England, and CE for Zaire, the Reich lab would be capable to distinguish a British migration computing together 75 Mississipi samples and 10 from Maine?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Promenade View Post
    https://twitter.com/iosif_lazaridis/...869120/photo/1

    It seems the Bell Beaker arrivals in south east England from central Europe had a very high amount of steppe related ancestry
    Thanks, Promenade. This one's been published, so here's a direct link.


    Steppe is black.



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    Hahaha. I am going to be tad nationalistic on this one, just for the sheer unadulterated hell of it: The Dutch created the English

    So, back to earth. On a more serious note, what I find disappointing is that we can't distinguish between several origin hypotheses: There is the Eastern Origin hypothesis and the Rhineland/Dutch origin hypothesis. When you go through the Supp Info and the paper there is more Y-DNA variability eastward than in the west. G2, I2. But we have only Tuithoorn in the Netherlands, which is bloody luck as most Veluwe samples dissolved due to acidic conditions.

    But the most important details are that BB, more than CWC, seems to have been originating from combined local sources and steppe sources. We even see completely steppe-less samples such as BB_France_Heg.

    EDIT: Let's make clear it isn't the paper that is disappointing. It is epic. I just wished it would have settled the origin case. But what the hell, it solved huge issues, and even more: After its ultimate discredit due to the IE migration theories reinstated, this paper brings cultural exchange as vector for archaeological change back to the table.
    Last edited by epoch; 12-05-17 at 22:51.

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    Checking again the samples and the results there are more problems in this paper:

    84 Arroyal I (Arroyal, Burgos, Spain)
    85 Contact person: Manuel A. Rojo Guerra
    86 The site of Arroyal I was excavated by a research team from the University of Burgos in
    87 2011–2012. The site is a megalithic grave with well-preserved structural elements: a
    88 rectangular chamber (3x3.5 m), a long corridor (6 m), and a stone mound. The grave
    89 was used as a collective burial during 400 years in the Late Neolithic (3300–2900
    90 calBCE)19. The grave was then abandoned until the Chalcolithic when it was
    91 extensively remodelled: Neolithic layers were almost eliminated; the corridor was filled
    92 with rocks and sediment; the useful area inside the chamber was reduced when a stone
    93 wall was built; and a floor of limestone blocks was built inside the chamber. Several
    94 consecutive and isolated burials (9–10) were then introduced. The last one (Roy5) was a
    95 young individual buried with a set of 4 vessels (2 Bell Beakers and 2 carinated bowls)
    96 and surrounded by the long bones and skulls from previous burials.
    She represents the
    97 earliest observation of steppe-related genetic affinities in the Iberian Peninsula. Then
    98 the dolmen was closed using materials from the site (in secondary position) and, at the
    99 same time, the mound height was increased. Finally, an isolated pit grave (Roy4) was
    100 made inside the mound. We successfully analysed 5 individuals from this site:
    101 Ÿ I0458/Roy1/SU25, Skull 1: 2458–2206 calBCE (3850±30 BP, UGA-15904)
    102 Ÿ I0459/Roy2/UE25, Isolated human jaw: 2600–2200 BCE
    103 Ÿ I0460/Roy3/SU25, Skull 2: 2461–2210 calBCE (3860±30 BP, UGA-15905)
    104 Ÿ I0461/Roy4/SU19, Inhumation 1: 2348–2200 calBCE (3827±25 BP, MAMS-14857)
    105 Ÿ I0462/Roy5/SU25, Inhumation 2: 2465–2211 calBCE (3870±30, UGA-15903);
    106 2566–2346 calBCE (3950±26 BP, MAMS-25936)
    107 Samples Roy1 and Roy3 were genetically first-degree relatives and belonged to
    108 different mitochondrial haplogroups, which points to a father-son relationship.
    I0460 and I0458 had Y-DNA I2a2a and mtDNA H45 and K1a1b1 (the same mtDNA that I0461, the woman with steppe ancestry buried over such family); the mtDNA of I0462 was K1a+165, and had also steppe ancestry.

    In the paper "El dolmen de Arroyal I: usos y modificaciones durante elIII milenio cal AC." by EDUARDO CARMONA BALLESTERO,MIGUEL ÁNGEL ARNAIZ ALONSO & MARÍA DEL CARMEN ALAMEDA CUENCA-ROMERO

    La UE 25 identica un acontecimiento representado por el depósito de un individuo joven, cuyo esqueleto se encontró en conexión anatómica, ubicado en la zona SO de la cámara. Se encontraba depositado sobre una zona empedrada elaborada con piedras calizas de mediano tamaño (UE 28). El suelo se localizaba en el lado norte de la cámara, abarcando aproximadamente 2/3 de la misma. Así, el espacio de la cámara queda dividido en dos
    partes diferenciadas: un suelo de piedra caliza (UE 28) sobre el que se depositan los cadáveres y una zona sin empedrado, más baja, que sirve de espacio para la colocación de ofrendas. En esta zona se encontraron 4 recipientes completos: dos vasos campaniformes de estilo marítimo internacional y dos cazuelillas lisas, que formaban un conjunto ubicado al E de la zona funeraria sin conexión física con el inhumado. ..... Todo el espacio cameral es colmatado por una potente unidad (40 cm) de coloración oscura (UE 21) y con gran cantidad de restos óseos humanos (desarticulados y por general muy fragmentados). Esta unidad tiene la particularidad de no incluir elementos campaniformes sino objetos de atribución precampaniforme. De manera particularizada se puede señalar un fragmento de cuenco decorado con triángulos incisos rellenos de puntos impresos que forman una franja muy ancha de zig-zags. La pieza recuerda bastante a otra recuperada en el cercano yacimiento de Fuente Celada (Alameda Cuenca-Romero et al. 2011) y se puede vincular a otros hallazgos similares en el marco regional (Delibes de Castro y Herrán Martínez 2007, Abarquero et al. 2012). Los materiales arqueológicos del estrato, su disposición y la desarticulación que manifestan los restos humanos indican un depósito cuya formación es consecuencia de acciones vinculadas a una remodelación del ámbito funerario. Esto permite explicar el proceso que da origen al estrato: una colmatación con sedimentos aportados de otro lugar; de igual modo adquiere sentido el carácter fragmentario y las posiciones secundarias que muestran los componentes materiales culturales.


    The picture is quite different: both father and son's skulls wouldn't be surrounding the body of I0462 but would be part of a colmation done by the Bell Beakers reusing an old burial from the previous culture (as the rocks and pre-Bell Beaker pottery found in UE21). Summary: UE28 pavement, UE25 body of I0462, UE21 colmation with the skulls and pottery pre-Bell Beaker, UE20 pavement, UE19 body of I0461, UE9 colmation with bones and Ciempozuelos pottery).

    Again in the Bell Beaker paper the info is taken mistakedly as such Y-DNA is not Bell Beaker, but considered so.





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    @berun
    Same with PT cova da Moura samples. 1500 years of burials in that cave and all fragments.... dating was OK, but those would never be Bell beakers.
    Even Almonda samples. two girls whose only connection to BB was the coat found there that had perforated V shape buttons.

    and they are comparing these kind of samples to proper bell beakers found with graves with the whole enchillada.

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    A case more, no conspirancy, just a fiasco:

    52 Paris Street (Cerdanyola del Vallès, Barcelona, Spain)
    53 Contact person: Joan Francès Farré
    54 During urban construction work at Paris Street in Cerdanyola del Vallès (Vallès
    55 Occidental, Barcelona province) in 2003, a large amount of skeletal material and
    56 associated pottery was unearthed. Follow-up excavation uncovered a Chalcolithic
    57 hypogeum with more than 9,000 human remains as well as lithic and ceramic material,
    58 the latter assigned to the Bell Beaker tradition18
    59 The hypogeum displays several occupational phases. The oldest one presented an ash
    60 layer underlying the first inhumations that could have a ritualistic significance. Charcoal
    61 from that basal layer was dated to 2878-2496 calBCE (4110±60 BP, UBAR-817). The
    62 first funerary phase (UE-15) shows a large number of successive inhumations (minimal
    63 number of individuals 36) that are still in anatomical position, placed in lateral
    64 decubitus and with flexed knees. Seven arrow points were retrieved from this layer. A
    65 thin, upper layer (UE-5) probably represents a re-organization of the existing funerary
    66 space, prior to the second funerary phase (UE-2). At UE-5, two Bell Beaker vessels of
    67 maritime style were retrieved. The UE-2 layer comprises fewer inhumations, and all of
    68 them were accompanied by typical Bell Beaker vessels: three in Maritime style, and two
    69 in epi-Maritime style. There were also numerous additional pieces of diverse typology.
    70 Over this layer, a final one, labelled UE-3, contained two more skeletons arranged over
    71 riverbed pebbles with a Bell Beaker vessel of a regional style known as "Pyrenaic". A
    72 bone from this layer yielded the youngest date in the hypogeum of 2469-2206 calBCE
    73 (3870±45 BP, UBAR-860). We recovered ancient DNA data from 10 individuals:
    74 Ÿ I0257/10362A: 2571–2350 calBCE (3965±29 BP, MAMS-25937)
    75 Ÿ I0258/10367A: 2850–2250 BCE
    76 Ÿ I0260/10370A: 2850–2250 BCE
    77 Ÿ I0261/10378A: 2850–2250 BCE
    78 Ÿ I0262/10381A: 2850–2250 BCE
    79 Ÿ I0263/10385A: 2850–2250 BCE
    80 Ÿ I0823/10360A: 2850–2250 BCE
    81 Ÿ I0825/10394A: 2474–2300 calBCE (3915±29 BP, MAMS-25939)
    82 Ÿ I0826/10400A: 2833–2480 calBCE (4051±28 BP, MAMS-25940)
    83 Ÿ I1553/10388A: 2850–2250 BCE
    No steppe ancestry, four Y-DNA results, two being R1b, one G2a, another I2a. For the last two in Catalonia there are levels of 10% for each, for the other two R1b of course would be rare clades, isn't?

    Have found the trick? The hypogeum had four buriyng times separated by layers, being those associated with Bell Beakers the superior three. I0826 was I2a2 and has a date that could be assigned to the pre-Bell Beaker period, and the individual I0261, with Y-DNA R1b could be found in whichever period... If I0826 is keept out from the equation we could have a 66% R1b, a similar percent as the actual, and remember, of the same clade as the continental Bell Beakers...

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    A case more, no conspirancy, just a fiasco:



    No steppe ancestry, four Y-DNA results, two being R1b, one G2a, another I2a. For the last two in Catalonia there are levels of 10% for each, for the other two R1b of course would be rare clades, isn't?

    Have found the trick? The hypogeum had four buriyng times separated by layers, being those associated with Bell Beakers the superior three. I0826 was I2a2 and has a date that could be assigned to the pre-Bell Beaker period, and the individual I0261, with Y-DNA R1b could be found in whichever period... If I0826 is keept out from the equation we could have a 66% R1b, a similar percent as the actual, and remember, of the same clade as the continental Bell Beakers...
    Have you written a text that explains your opinion about R1b expansion(s) in Europe?

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    @ Olympus Mons, in whichever case even counting the I2a of Cova da Moura as Neolithic, there would be so 6 Y-DNA ancient Portugueses of other clades (G2a, I, I2a) with the samples taken in "The population genomics of archaeological transition in west Iberia". Even so, it would be good to check the geography of such samples.

    @ A. Papadimitrou, no summary text but hypotheses: clade coming along G2a from Anatolia with the Neolithic, or WHG clade hiding somewhere in Europe and popping up in Eastern Iberia, or clade that get advantage in Anatolia of the copper technology and invaded all Europe from all directions. In whichever case no Indoeuropean (but a mild possibility could be allowed for the third case).

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Even though most Spanish Bell Beaker had no Steppe ancestry I still think that U5a1b1 found in Spanish Bell Beaker earlier this year came from the Steppe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    @ Olympus Mons, in whichever case even counting the I2a of Cova da Moura as Neolithic, there would be so 6 Y-DNA ancient Portugueses of other clades (G2a, I, I2a) with the samples taken in "The population genomics of archaeological transition in west Iberia". Even so, it would be good to check the geography of such samples.

    @ A. Papadimitrou, no summary text but hypotheses: clade coming along G2a from Anatolia with the Neolithic, or WHG clade hiding somewhere in Europe and popping up in Eastern Iberia, or clade that get advantage in Anatolia of the copper technology and invaded all Europe from all directions. In whichever case no Indoeuropean (but a mild possibility could be allowed for the third case).
    To me everything about R1b-L51 suggest a European origin. What makes you think it came that it could have come from Anatolia?

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    By "uncle" clade in Anatolia, presence of Kura-Araxes-Yamna R1b there, origin of the Neolithic cultures, etc. The truth is that L51 is near to Z2015 so the focus must be in a common place.

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    Leaving aside the possible Iberian pre-BB samples (not including the dubious Portuguese sample), the Y-DNA would be R1b x2, G2 x1, I2a1 x1.

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    I just went through all the supplementary material on the Beaker sites. Unless I'm missing something, German or Northern or steppe Bell Beaker, whatever you want to call it, bears absolutely no resemblance to the "story" as proposed by Gimbutas and David Anthony: horse riding warriors if not chariot driving warriors, master metallurgists welcomed for their magic, responsible for bringing copper and bronze to Europe, and on and on.

    There is none of that in these graves: no horses at all, no wheels either, and extremely poor grave goods. Forget bronze, there isn't even any copper. One grave, in Germany, from Manching-Oberstimm, has a few minor copper items. There are certainly no copper weapons. Indeed, only a few have the wrist guards for archery, which were in any case from Iberian Beaker.

    Speaking of Iberian Beaker, the graves are richer, containing copper and gold.

    This is even worse than Corded Ware.

    Unless I'm missing something it's time to retire those old fantasies which, as I've been saying for a long time, are anachronistic, the result of an unwarranted imposition of Bronze Age culture traits from the east on much more primitive societies.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    I think that such fantasies will endure more years, there are a lot of people that like the idea of strong and barely-civilized steppe warriors driving chariots capable to conquer all Europe and mating all Neolithic brunettes on the way; the option left would be that their ancestors were indoeuropeanized, so conquered, and the egos of many men wouldn't be so happy with that.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I just went through all the supplementary material on the Beaker sites. Unless I'm missing something, German or Northern or steppe Bell Beaker, whatever you want to call it, bears absolutely no resemblance to the "story" as proposed by Gimbutas and David Anthony: horse riding warriors if not chariot driving warriors, master metallurgists welcomed for their magic, responsible for bringing copper and bronze to Europe, and on and on.

    There is none of that in these graves: no horses at all, no wheels either, and extremely poor grave goods. Forget bronze, there isn't even any copper. One grave, in Germany, from Manching-Oberstimm, has a few minor copper items. There are certainly no copper weapons. Indeed, only a few have the wrist guards for archery, which were in any case from Iberian Beaker.

    Speaking of Iberian Beaker, the graves are richer, containing copper and gold.

    This is even worse than Corded Ware.

    Unless I'm missing something it's time to retire those old fantasies which, as I've been saying for a long time, are anachronistic, the result of an unwarranted imposition of Bronze Age culture traits from the east on much more primitive societies.
    No wonder they accepted technological achievements, together with pottery, from Iberian Beakers. I didn't know much about Beakers, but CW spread was obviously due to collapse of farming in Northern Europe and the steppe population spilling out, or being squeezed out of Steppe, due to terrible climate (we have seen this scenario again in Dark Ages). No big conquering armies. Barely anyone of locals left alive to fight. Just big movement of poor population fighting elements for survival, and barely winning. Probably their "winning" attributes were, more northern hunter gatherer genetics, more hunting, more fishing and still doing herding and rudimentary farming.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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