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Thread: The Bell Beaker by Olalde and Reich et al. 2017

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    No wonder they accepted technological achievements, together with pottery, from Iberian Beakers. I didn't know much about Beakers, but CW spread was obviously due to collapse of farming in Northern Europe and the steppe population spilling out, or being squeezed out of Steppe, due to terrible climate (we have seen this scenario again in Dark Ages). No big conquering armies. Barely anyone of locals left alive to fight. Just big movement of poor population fighting elements for survival, and barely winning. Probably their "winning" attributes were, more northern hunter gatherer genetics, more hunting, more fishing and still doing herding and rudimentary farming.
    What is amazing to me is that even after this paper the conversation is continuing about horse riding men bringing metallurgy.

    Either I am really missing something or these people are suffering from a massive cognitive disconnect.

    Where are the horses? How could they be bringing metallurgy when the Iberian Beakers already had metallurgy, as did the Central European MN., and, indeed, it was more sophisticated metallurgy than that possessed by the Eastern Beakers. Even the pottery looks more crude to me than the Iberian Beaker pottery.

    I also fail to see how this could have been a military invasion made possible by superior weapons when only ONE darn grave had a copper weapon, and that was a measly copper dagger.

    The list is growing of pop gen hobbyists, posters or bloggers , whose output I no longer read. With the exception of a very few, stick to the papers by the major labs is my advice.i


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I also fail to see how this could have been a military invasion made possible by superior weapons when only ONE darn grave had a copper weapon, and that was a measly copper dagger.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    2 years later the British came back with a larger, better equiped army
    it happened all the time in history
    in the end sheer power wins over bravery

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    2 years later the British came back with a larger, better equiped army
    it happened all the time in history
    in the end sheer power wins over bravery
    To paraphrase Napoleon, God is on the side of the best artillery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    initially farming was introduced in eastern England by people coming from the old LBK area (middle Germany, Belgium, northern France) and the Swifterbant people (Rhine - Meuse - Scheldt delta)
    then megalithic farmers from Atlantic France and Britanny took over in western England and the area around the Irish Sea
    It seems to me the Atlantic megalithers took the strong side upon the preceding Neolithic people, allover Britain, not only in West - and their seemingly strong density in Y-I2a seems proving a turnover of leadership among Western Neolithic people of the Late period - I think the megalithic part of TRBK, more ponounced in West, is a polongation of these maritime megalithers, as their auDNA seems showing (some more WHG, and more proximity to Basques and Northern Iberians in Gokheim - all this could show the HG's heritage in the megalithic phenomenon in West, separating them in some part from Centrla Europe farmers -

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    Bell Beakers from NL 9, HU 8, CZ 2, UK 18, D 32, PL 3, F 9 = 81 continental samples (UK samples were already mixed from CE). If the French samples would per example some 70 maybe results would be different? but with such origin for the samples of course the major Neolithic genetic imput will be LBK-like (if it would be done the contrary, some 70 samples from South France and some 10 from North Europe, surely the Neolithic origin would seem rather different).


    Attachment 8677
    I suppose they have sampled what they could ! (I prefer to not imagine a Patriarcalists-Yamanayists complot here!)
    - the southern auDNA among South France and Switzerland was surely more local than the result of a recent Iberian BB input: acculturation (seemingly proved in some S-France settlements by the archeologic point) -
    - the Northern/Central Euro BB's were also acculturated, but of a rather different origin, as well for males than for females -
    -I'm tempted to imagine an intermediary (rather male) pop or groups between first Iberian BB's and the last ones of Northern Europe, along Northern Rhône and Rhine -
    Everybody can mistake...That said as you I wait more BB's DNA / Haplos from Iberia in well/better assigned archeologic layers -

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    complot? no such case, but just an old attitude.

    Attachment 8724

    By the way sampling in detail the Barcelona's R1b would have allowed to know if such clades were rare casual extint popping up with BB or some known subclade.
    "What I've seen so far after my entire career chasing Indoeuropeans is that our solutions look tissue thin and our problems still look monumental" J.P.Mallory

    "The ultimate homeland of the group [PIE] that also spread Anatolian languages is less clear." D. Reich

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    complot? no such case, but just an old attitude.

    By the way sampling in detail the Barcelona's R1b would have allowed to know if such clades were rare casual extint popping up with BB or some known subclade.

    Yes... and as if all this Balkans and southeast europe adna deluge is not because they were looking for steppe migration into anatolia to kill off the Anatolian language conundrum.... yeah right. its all a coincidence. :)

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    @Moesan,
    Nobody acculturates this fast. There's something not right with this new narrative of pots not people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympus Mons View Post
    Yes... and as if all this Balkans and southeast europe adna deluge is not because they were looking for steppe migration into anatolia to kill off the Anatolian language conundrum.... yeah right. its all a coincidence. :)
    The whole point of a lot of these papers is to test the standard, or perhaps better stated, the popularized version of the P-C steppe origin and dissemination of the Indo-European languages theory. Part of that would have to be to test whether or NOT Yamnaya like DNA turned up at the time and on the route it would have taken. That was their job. What's the problem?

    As to people not acculturating that fast, look at most of the Amer-Indians of Central Mexico. How long did it take...300 years to lose language, religion, culture and adapt new technologies?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    I suppose they have sampled what they could ! (I prefer to not imagine a Patriarcalists-Yamanayists complot here!)
    - the southern auDNA among South France and Switzerland was surely more local than the result of a recent Iberian BB input: acculturation (seemingly proved in some S-France settlements by the archeologic point) -
    - the Northern/Central Euro BB's were also acculturated, but of a rather different origin, as well for males than for females -
    -I'm tempted to imagine an intermediary (rather male) pop or groups between first Iberian BB's and the last ones of Northern Europe, along Northern Rhône and Rhine -
    Everybody can mistake...That said as you I wait more BB's DNA / Haplos from Iberia in well/better assigned archeologic layers -
    Olaide e.a. state the chance in genotype, did it also chance the phenotype?


    "The Beaker Phenomenon And The Phenotype Transformation Of Northwest Europe"


    For example the work of Prof. L. Kooijmans

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    I could say my thoughts, some well based, other deductions, but i'ts phenotypical anthropo not the focus of the present thread - to answer you, I suppose this aspect was not at all the aim of Olalde -

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympus Mons View Post
    Yes... and as if all this Balkans and southeast europe adna deluge is not because they were looking for steppe migration into anatolia to kill off the Anatolian language conundrum.... yeah right. its all a coincidence. :)
    If I believe what you say, it's complot according to my values... But do I believe this? We have an exciting problem to resolve, and it deserves more joy and pure curiosity and less 'a priori' I think -

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    complot? no such case, but just an old attitude.

    Attachment 8724

    By the way sampling in detail the Barcelona's R1b would have allowed to know if such clades were rare casual extint popping up with BB or some known subclade.
    I did not get open your attachment -

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    2 years later the British came back with a larger, better equiped army
    Yes, because they had more resources across the ocean. Neolithic Europeans didn't.

    As for the Zulus, they were on drugs when they were attacking (IEs also had drugs).

    The Zulus were using cannabis and another more powerful drug:

    Watch 28:30 to 39:00 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELdBNCnjDVI#t=28m30s

    The Yamnaya also had cannabis (and possibly other drugs too):

    https://www.newscientist.com/article...-dope-dealers/

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    I did not get open your attachment -
    it was like that...

    Attachment 8736

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    After checking that 3 or 4 Y-DNA Iberian samples can't be adscribed with certainity to Bell Beakers (what about to use an scientific method?), I checked the Reich' lab fiasco for the Portuguese and French samples. For Portugal... I can't believe that the lab was not interested to know more about their Y-DNA Bell Beakers (they are capable to test 60 British BB but only one from the area where such culture popped up and spread...), even so it could be accepted that an individual found in a cave used from the Neolithic (hundreds of previously buried people there) with the presence of a BB pot which dates about such epoch was BB...

    For SE France:
    - Marlens (Savoy, herder country): individual buried inside an arranged crevice, mtDNA H, Y-DNA R1b, 20% steppe autosomal, a BB pot of (late) regional style was found
    - La Fare (Alpes-Haute-Provence): individual with mtDNA K1c1 / Y-DNA unkown... it was buried with BB pots of mixed style (comb - cord impressions) as along with regional (late) pots.
    - Villard's dolmen (Alpes-Haute-Provence), not far from Savoy and Aosta Valley. 25 people buried there from the BB epoch till Middle Bronze Age. Two samples from the BB epoch were mtDNA T2b3 (female) and the other mtDNA H1e, Y-DNA R1b-U152. The three samples from Alpes-Haute-Provence had some 55% steppe, similar then to their Central European colleages so.

    I see some problems with the French / Alpine samples: they are somewhat late and being found in herder territories they could be herders that could have travelled a lot and mix with people afar, so mixing with people here and there or receiving migrations from other herding areas (like the German migrations south of the Alps in Aosta Valley or South Tirol). Being late samples a possible Iberian admixture would be diluted if there was one.

    The Reich lab was not aware of BB remains in the Center and the West of the country... just only those near the eastern frontier and not far from the CW giant.

    The other French samples are labeled as Central European as they were found in the Rhin bassin:
    - Mondelange (near Luxembourg): 9 BB burials from a total of 22, the difference was by time or by migrants? no kurgans? in whichever case they found father and son: H / R1b, U5a2c3a / R1b
    - Sierentz (Alsace): corded BB pots, two brothers buried with the same haplos: X2b4 / R1b, no kurgans?
    - Hegenheim: a female in an individual burial, mtDNA H1+152, no kurgan ? females buried alone? what kind of steppe warriors did that? amazons? ;)
    - Rouffach: the same case as above, but mtDNA J1c4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I just went through all the supplementary material on the Beaker sites. Unless I'm missing something, German or Northern or steppe Bell Beaker, whatever you want to call it, bears absolutely no resemblance to the "story" as proposed by Gimbutas and David Anthony: horse riding warriors if not chariot driving warriors, master metallurgists welcomed for their magic, responsible for bringing copper and bronze to Europe, and on and on.

    There is none of that in these graves: no horses at all, no wheels either, and extremely poor grave goods. Forget bronze, there isn't even any copper. One grave, in Germany, from Manching-Oberstimm, has a few minor copper items. There are certainly no copper weapons. Indeed, only a few have the wrist guards for archery, which were in any case from Iberian Beaker.

    Speaking of Iberian Beaker, the graves are richer, containing copper and gold.

    This is even worse than Corded Ware.

    Unless I'm missing something it's time to retire those old fantasies which, as I've been saying for a long time, are anachronistic, the result of an unwarranted imposition of Bronze Age culture traits from the east on much more primitive societies.
    IMO you underestimate the most important thing the Bell Beakers created a first "pan-European" culture (and beyond because the Bell Beaker culture is also found in Morocco). According to specialist Van der Linden: "The distinctive pots, possibly used as drinking vessels, are nearly ubiquitous; flint arrowheads, copper daggers and stone wrist guards are common, too." It paved the way, a basic kind of network, or hub, for later on developments in Bronze Age Europe, until La Tene/Hallstatt.

    "This is even worse than Corded Ware". Worse?

    In NW Europe Corded Ware and Bell Beaker fused, blended. This blend immigrated to the Isles. Coon got it right when he stated: 'The Bell Beaker people who remained in the Rhinelands, however, came into intimate contact with the Corded people, who had invaded from the east and northeast, and with the corridor-tomb megalithic population to the north, whose domain extended down into the Netherlands. These three, of which the Bell Beaker element formed perhaps the dominant one, amalgamated to form an Early Bronze Age cultural unit, the so-called Zoned Beaker people who invaded England an Scotland as the first important carriers of metal."

    When the researchers are right (in the end) the BB replaced up to 90% of the Neolithic British!

    Such a "pan European" development and almost total replacement of the Isles could that be done by an anachronistic, primitive backward kind of culture (compared to the Neolithic/CW)?

    See:
    http://www.nature.com/news/ancient-g...ritain-1.21996

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    I'm posting Y-SNP calls here:

    Y-SNP calls for Bell Beaker genomes

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northener View Post
    IMO you underestimate the most important thing the Bell Beakers created a first "pan-European" culture (and beyond because the Bell Beaker culture is also found in Morocco). According to specialist Van der Linden: "The distinctive pots, possibly used as drinking vessels, are nearly ubiquitous; flint arrowheads, copper daggers and stone wrist guards are common, too." It paved the way, a basic kind of network, or hub, for later on developments in Bronze Age Europe, until La Tene/Hallstatt.

    "This is even worse than Corded Ware". Worse?

    In NW Europe Corded Ware and Bell Beaker fused, blended. This blend immigrated to the Isles. Coon got it right when he stated: 'The Bell Beaker people who remained in the Rhinelands, however, came into intimate contact with the Corded people, who had invaded from the east and northeast, and with the corridor-tomb megalithic population to the north, whose domain extended down into the Netherlands. These three, of which the Bell Beaker element formed perhaps the dominant one, amalgamated to form an Early Bronze Age cultural unit, the so-called Zoned Beaker people who invaded England an Scotland as the first important carriers of metal."

    When the researchers are right (in the end) the BB replaced up to 90% of the Neolithic British!

    Such a "pan European" development and almost total replacement of the Isles could that be done by an anachronistic, primitive backward kind of culture (compared to the Neolithic/CW)?

    See:
    http://www.nature.com/news/ancient-g...ritain-1.21996
    Sorry, I missed this until now.

    You haven't convinced me, Northener.

    By worse than Corded Ware I meant they had even less metallurgy than Corded Ware and certainly no horses, where Corded Ware had at least a few. These graves don't show advanced metallurgy; they show very little metallurgy at all, certainly no bronze. That came quite a bit later. As has been the case with a lot of "steppe" lore, there's been a lot of conflation of time periods, attributing the characteristics of later periods anachronistically to earlier groups.

    As for replacement in the Isles, it was hardly a feat of arms or anything else. The Neolithic population was very small to begin with. Then, agriculture totally collapsed. There are lots of papers showing the climate change and the very steep declines in population there. They'll be easy to find if you doubt it.

    Then the "Beakers" come, perhaps carrying plague, according to Krause, and with a more pastoral economy good for the now wetter and colder climate.

    They didn't need to be the Egyptian civilization with their armies to take over the Isles. A good number of herders would do.

    It's a totally different kind of scenario.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    So, if the central European BB did not come from Iberia, who were they and where did they come from? They weren't CW, which is primarily R1a, right? The so-called "BB reflux" that replaced 90% of the population of Britain and Ireland was primarily R1b, as were the Yamnaya.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CrazyDonkey View Post
    So, if the central European BB did not come from Iberia, who were they and where did they come from? They weren't CW, which is primarily R1a, right? The so-called "BB reflux" that replaced 90% of the population of Britain and Ireland was primarily R1b, as were the Yamnaya.
    Bell Beaker mostly is a fusion with Yamnaya male lineage descendants and central european / balkans neolithic like the Vucedol culture. We know wait to have datas from prehistoric pannonian plain and danubian plain that would show cultural transition between proper neolithic and steppe pastoralism with tumuli. The idea of a Yamna -> CWC -> BB never made any sense for me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    Bell Beaker mostly is a fusion with Yamnaya male lineage descendants and central european / balkans neolithic like the Vucedol culture. We know wait to have datas from prehistoric pannonian plain and danubian plain that would show cultural transition between proper neolithic and steppe pastoralism with tumuli. The idea of a Yamna -> CWC -> BB never made any sense for me.
    I think that the more I visit this forum, the less I understand about genetics interpreting history, the first question, if it has not been found, to date, western branches of haplogroup R1b in Yamnaya as of say that they are descendants of Yamnaya male lineage BB? , second question, Central European or Balkan neolithics and why not Iberian, taking into account that the scientific evidence indicates the origin of BB?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ROS View Post
    I think that the more I visit this forum, the less I understand about genetics interpreting history, the first question, if it has not been found, to date, western branches of haplogroup R1b in Yamnaya as of say that they are descendants of Yamnaya male lineage BB? , second question, Central European or Balkan neolithics and why not Iberian, taking into account that the scientific evidence indicates the origin of BB?
    Because the study of wich we discuss on this thread by Olalde, have tested BB samples and they show strong steppe signals and steppe related male lineages. The Iberian BB origin was always made by the fact that the most ancient dated BB pots were found in modern Portugal and so Iberia. But i'm not gonna lie, i dont understand well either genetic interpretations, so i'm gonna let maybe someone more cultivate respond for you properly.

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    The problem is tricky, Olalde finds steppe, but middle Bronze Age samples show 0 (5 R1b males), mtDNA samples also 0 steppe. An admixture program fails.

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