The Bell Beaker by Olalde and Reich et al. 2017

I suppose they have sampled what they could ! (I prefer to not imagine a Patriarcalists-Yamanayists complot here!)
- the southern auDNA among South France and Switzerland was surely more local than the result of a recent Iberian BB input: acculturation (seemingly proved in some S-France settlements by the archeologic point) -
- the Northern/Central Euro BB's were also acculturated, but of a rather different origin, as well for males than for females -
-I'm tempted to imagine an intermediary (rather male) pop or groups between first Iberian BB's and the last ones of Northern Europe, along Northern Rhône and Rhine -
Everybody can mistake...That said as you I wait more BB's DNA / Haplos from Iberia in well/better assigned archeologic layers -

Olaide e.a. state the chance in genotype, did it also chance the phenotype?


"The Beaker Phenomenon And The Phenotype Transformation Of Northwest Europe"


For example the work of Prof. L. Kooijmans
 
I could say my thoughts, some well based, other deductions, but i'ts phenotypical anthropo not the focus of the present thread - to answer you, I suppose this aspect was not at all the aim of Olalde -
 
Yes... and as if all this Balkans and southeast europe adna deluge is not because they were looking for steppe migration into anatolia to kill off the Anatolian language conundrum.... yeah right. its all a coincidence. :)

If I believe what you say, it's complot according to my values... But do I believe this? We have an exciting problem to resolve, and it deserves more joy and pure curiosity and less 'a priori' I think -
 
complot? no such case, but just an old attitude.

View attachment 8724

By the way sampling in detail the Barcelona's R1b would have allowed to know if such clades were rare casual extint popping up with BB or some known subclade.

I did not get open your attachment -
 
2 years later the British came back with a larger, better equiped army

Yes, because they had more resources across the ocean. Neolithic Europeans didn't.

As for the Zulus, they were on drugs when they were attacking (IEs also had drugs).

The Zulus were using cannabis and another more powerful drug:

Watch 28:30 to 39:00 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELdBNCnjDVI#t=28m30s

The Yamnaya also had cannabis (and possibly other drugs too):

https://www.newscientist.com/articl...n-civilisation-were-prehistoric-dope-dealers/
 
After checking that 3 or 4 Y-DNA Iberian samples can't be adscribed with certainity to Bell Beakers (what about to use an scientific method?), I checked the Reich' lab fiasco for the Portuguese and French samples. For Portugal... I can't believe that the lab was not interested to know more about their Y-DNA Bell Beakers (they are capable to test 60 British BB but only one from the area where such culture popped up and spread...), even so it could be accepted that an individual found in a cave used from the Neolithic (hundreds of previously buried people there) with the presence of a BB pot which dates about such epoch was BB...

For SE France:
- Marlens (Savoy, herder country): individual buried inside an arranged crevice, mtDNA H, Y-DNA R1b, 20% steppe autosomal, a BB pot of (late) regional style was found
- La Fare (Alpes-Haute-Provence): individual with mtDNA K1c1 / Y-DNA unkown... it was buried with BB pots of mixed style (comb - cord impressions) as along with regional (late) pots.
- Villard's dolmen (Alpes-Haute-Provence), not far from Savoy and Aosta Valley. 25 people buried there from the BB epoch till Middle Bronze Age. Two samples from the BB epoch were mtDNA T2b3 (female) and the other mtDNA H1e, Y-DNA R1b-U152. The three samples from Alpes-Haute-Provence had some 55% steppe, similar then to their Central European colleages so.

I see some problems with the French / Alpine samples: they are somewhat late and being found in herder territories they could be herders that could have travelled a lot and mix with people afar, so mixing with people here and there or receiving migrations from other herding areas (like the German migrations south of the Alps in Aosta Valley or South Tirol). Being late samples a possible Iberian admixture would be diluted if there was one.

The Reich lab was not aware of BB remains in the Center and the West of the country... just only those near the eastern frontier and not far from the CW giant.

The other French samples are labeled as Central European as they were found in the Rhin bassin:
- Mondelange (near Luxembourg): 9 BB burials from a total of 22, the difference was by time or by migrants? no kurgans? in whichever case they found father and son: H / R1b, U5a2c3a / R1b
- Sierentz (Alsace): corded BB pots, two brothers buried with the same haplos: X2b4 / R1b, no kurgans?
- Hegenheim: a female in an individual burial, mtDNA H1+152, no kurgan ? females buried alone? what kind of steppe warriors did that? amazons? ;)
- Rouffach: the same case as above, but mtDNA J1c4
 
I just went through all the supplementary material on the Beaker sites. Unless I'm missing something, German or Northern or steppe Bell Beaker, whatever you want to call it, bears absolutely no resemblance to the "story" as proposed by Gimbutas and David Anthony: horse riding warriors if not chariot driving warriors, master metallurgists welcomed for their magic, responsible for bringing copper and bronze to Europe, and on and on.

There is none of that in these graves: no horses at all, no wheels either, and extremely poor grave goods. Forget bronze, there isn't even any copper. One grave, in Germany, from Manching-Oberstimm, has a few minor copper items. There are certainly no copper weapons. Indeed, only a few have the wrist guards for archery, which were in any case from Iberian Beaker.

Speaking of Iberian Beaker, the graves are richer, containing copper and gold.

This is even worse than Corded Ware.

Unless I'm missing something it's time to retire those old fantasies which, as I've been saying for a long time, are anachronistic, the result of an unwarranted imposition of Bronze Age culture traits from the east on much more primitive societies.

IMO you underestimate the most important thing the Bell Beakers created a first "pan-European" culture (and beyond because the Bell Beaker culture is also found in Morocco). According to specialist Van der Linden: "The distinctive pots, possibly used as drinking vessels, are nearly ubiquitous; flint arrowheads, copper daggers and stone wrist guards are common, too." It paved the way, a basic kind of network, or hub, for later on developments in Bronze Age Europe, until La Tene/Hallstatt.

"This is even worse than Corded Ware". Worse?

In NW Europe Corded Ware and Bell Beaker fused, blended. This blend immigrated to the Isles. Coon got it right when he stated: 'The Bell Beaker people who remained in the Rhinelands, however, came into intimate contact with the Corded people, who had invaded from the east and northeast, and with the corridor-tomb megalithic population to the north, whose domain extended down into the Netherlands. These three, of which the Bell Beaker element formed perhaps the dominant one, amalgamated to form an Early Bronze Age cultural unit, the so-called Zoned Beaker people who invaded England an Scotland as the first important carriers of metal."

When the researchers are right (in the end) the BB replaced up to 90% of the Neolithic British!

Such a "pan European" development and almost total replacement of the Isles could that be done by an anachronistic, primitive backward kind of culture (compared to the Neolithic/CW)?

See:
http://www.nature.com/news/ancient-...ze-age-beaker-culture-invaded-britain-1.21996
 
IMO you underestimate the most important thing the Bell Beakers created a first "pan-European" culture (and beyond because the Bell Beaker culture is also found in Morocco). According to specialist Van der Linden: "The distinctive pots, possibly used as drinking vessels, are nearly ubiquitous; flint arrowheads, copper daggers and stone wrist guards are common, too." It paved the way, a basic kind of network, or hub, for later on developments in Bronze Age Europe, until La Tene/Hallstatt.

"This is even worse than Corded Ware". Worse?

In NW Europe Corded Ware and Bell Beaker fused, blended. This blend immigrated to the Isles. Coon got it right when he stated: 'The Bell Beaker people who remained in the Rhinelands, however, came into intimate contact with the Corded people, who had invaded from the east and northeast, and with the corridor-tomb megalithic population to the north, whose domain extended down into the Netherlands. These three, of which the Bell Beaker element formed perhaps the dominant one, amalgamated to form an Early Bronze Age cultural unit, the so-called Zoned Beaker people who invaded England an Scotland as the first important carriers of metal."

When the researchers are right (in the end) the BB replaced up to 90% of the Neolithic British!

Such a "pan European" development and almost total replacement of the Isles could that be done by an anachronistic, primitive backward kind of culture (compared to the Neolithic/CW)?

See:
http://www.nature.com/news/ancient-...ze-age-beaker-culture-invaded-britain-1.21996

Sorry, I missed this until now.

You haven't convinced me, Northener.

By worse than Corded Ware I meant they had even less metallurgy than Corded Ware and certainly no horses, where Corded Ware had at least a few. These graves don't show advanced metallurgy; they show very little metallurgy at all, certainly no bronze. That came quite a bit later. As has been the case with a lot of "steppe" lore, there's been a lot of conflation of time periods, attributing the characteristics of later periods anachronistically to earlier groups.

As for replacement in the Isles, it was hardly a feat of arms or anything else. The Neolithic population was very small to begin with. Then, agriculture totally collapsed. There are lots of papers showing the climate change and the very steep declines in population there. They'll be easy to find if you doubt it.

Then the "Beakers" come, perhaps carrying plague, according to Krause, and with a more pastoral economy good for the now wetter and colder climate.

They didn't need to be the Egyptian civilization with their armies to take over the Isles. A good number of herders would do.

It's a totally different kind of scenario.
 
So, if the central European BB did not come from Iberia, who were they and where did they come from? They weren't CW, which is primarily R1a, right? The so-called "BB reflux" that replaced 90% of the population of Britain and Ireland was primarily R1b, as were the Yamnaya.
 
So, if the central European BB did not come from Iberia, who were they and where did they come from? They weren't CW, which is primarily R1a, right? The so-called "BB reflux" that replaced 90% of the population of Britain and Ireland was primarily R1b, as were the Yamnaya.
Bell Beaker mostly is a fusion with Yamnaya male lineage descendants and central european / balkans neolithic like the Vucedol culture. We know wait to have datas from prehistoric pannonian plain and danubian plain that would show cultural transition between proper neolithic and steppe pastoralism with tumuli. The idea of a Yamna -> CWC -> BB never made any sense for me.
 
Bell Beaker mostly is a fusion with Yamnaya male lineage descendants and central european / balkans neolithic like the Vucedol culture. We know wait to have datas from prehistoric pannonian plain and danubian plain that would show cultural transition between proper neolithic and steppe pastoralism with tumuli. The idea of a Yamna -> CWC -> BB never made any sense for me.

I think that the more I visit this forum, the less I understand about genetics interpreting history, the first question, if it has not been found, to date, western branches of haplogroup R1b in Yamnaya as of say that they are descendants of Yamnaya male lineage BB? , second question, Central European or Balkan neolithics and why not Iberian, taking into account that the scientific evidence indicates the origin of BB?
 
I think that the more I visit this forum, the less I understand about genetics interpreting history, the first question, if it has not been found, to date, western branches of haplogroup R1b in Yamnaya as of say that they are descendants of Yamnaya male lineage BB? , second question, Central European or Balkan neolithics and why not Iberian, taking into account that the scientific evidence indicates the origin of BB?
Because the study of wich we discuss on this thread by Olalde, have tested BB samples and they show strong steppe signals and steppe related male lineages. The Iberian BB origin was always made by the fact that the most ancient dated BB pots were found in modern Portugal and so Iberia. But i'm not gonna lie, i dont understand well either genetic interpretations, so i'm gonna let maybe someone more cultivate respond for you properly.
 
The problem is tricky, Olalde finds steppe, but middle Bronze Age samples show 0 (5 R1b males), mtDNA samples also 0 steppe. An admixture program fails.
 
The problem is tricky, Olalde finds steppe, but middle Bronze Age samples show 0 (5 R1b males), mtDNA samples also 0 steppe. An admixture program fails.

Berun (or anyone for that matter), maybe you have the knowledge to explain me the following:
a. What is Steppe????
b. Isn't EHG in part WHG?
c. If someone like KUM6, with CHG and a farmer Ancestry that is not the EEF but present in "steppe" meets someone with elevated WHG doen't their offspring show "steppe" even if never ever had an ancestry from steppe?
d. Or steppe is a combination of EHG in its specific part that dos not match with WHG at all, and CHG?
 
Berun (or anyone for that matter), maybe you have the knowledge to explain me the following:
a. What is Steppe????
b. Isn't EHG in part WHG?
c. If someone like KUM6, with CHG and a farmer Ancestry that is not the EEF but present in "steppe" meets someone with elevated WHG doen't their offspring show "steppe" even if never ever had an ancestry from steppe?
d. Or steppe is a combination of EHG in its specific part that dos not match with WHG at all, and CHG?

I will humor you

a. "Steppe" is Yamnaya and Afanesevo, which is EHG + like 30-40% CHG/Iranian Neolithic

b. I think EHG being "part WHG and part ANE" is an over simplification of EHG. It seems to me that the "WHG portion" actually like a "very closely related to WHG portion"

c. No, but people on here like to say this so dissolve any author's conclusions of steppe admixture CHG+WHG isn't "steppe". See above.

d. Yes, it's more like this.
 
I will humor you

a. "Steppe" is Yamnaya and Afanesevo, which is EHG + like 30-40% CHG/Iranian Neolithic

b. I think EHG being "part WHG and part ANE" is an over simplification of EHG. It seems to me that the "WHG portion" actually like a "very closely related to WHG portion"

c. No, but people on here like to say this so dissolve any author's conclusions of steppe admixture CHG+WHG isn't "steppe". See above.

d. Yes, it's more like this.
Essential here is, what THEY (Olalde et al) mean, thus here their original definition, "The expansion of the ‘Corded Ware complex’ in north-central and northeastern Europe was associated with people who derived most of their ancestry from populations related to Early Bronze Age Yamnaya pastoralists from the Eurasian steppe2–4 (henceforth referred to as ‘steppe’)."
Hans
 
Please: First read it, before indulging in fantasies here. Thank you.~~~~
 
For an anti-steppe hypothesis to prevail, it seems to me it has to explain a 90% population replacement in Britain by R1b IE-speaking invaders post-2000 BCE, with obvious language replacement. R1b predominates there today. If not a Yamnaya-derived migration, then what?
 

This thread has been viewed 87850 times.

Back
Top