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Thread: The genomic history of southeastern Europe-Mathiesen et al

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milan.M View Post
    So basically we have R1b all over Balkans,pure gold.
    There we have the origin of Villabruna.

    But there seems to be allot of R1 clades during the mesolithic in Balkans. It rivals Mal'ta. As I argued in the past. R1 is far too old to be just the lineage of one group, and must have been spred around the globe much earlier. Also it is far to widespred outside of the Indo European context, so that we can determine Indo European ness with yDNA. Interestingly because these Paleolithic/Mesolithic R1 lineages show no Steppe ancestry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    The only Anatolia Bronze Age "y" we have in this paper is J1a.

    As for Kura Araxes, wasn't there something about 11635 Armenia EBA, which turned out to be R1b1-M415(xM269) actually being in a Kura Araxes context?

    Or am I misremembering that?
    You are not misremembering. That is correct R1b1 and L1a as far as I remember. This West Anatolian Bronze Age samples are from the province of Isparta. A little later Anatolian IE language Sidetic was spoken there, seems to be connected to that because beyond the Neolithic pops only Indo Europeans are attested in that region.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alpenjager View Post
    I have made a bar chart showing the mtDNA H frequency among all tested Early Neolithic populations. I have excluded H5 results because this is found in Anatolia and is not found in Karsdorf.

    Interesting findings is that Karsdorf match pretty well with Eastern Balkans while starcevo-koros and LBK from southwestern Germany match with Anatolia.

    I have not included any unreliable sample and I decided count as H5 an ambiguous H vs H5 sample from Barcin. I have not included two samples from Portugal.

    Attachment 8369 Attachment 8370

    As Predicted by my bar chart 4 month ago, T1a1a have been found in a Criş culture settlement.

    And as I showed in this map 3 months ago: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...e_7000_YBP.png

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    And look at this: Iran Neolithic:
    R:M718:17334694G->T
    R:CTS2426:14300457G->A; R:FGC1168:15667208G->C

    Now, my brain is fried.

    I didn't quite understand this one. Are their some IranNeolithic samples in it. And do these mean yDNA T, A, C where found or that a R haplogroup was found and these are the calls for it? or is it something completely different.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    I didn't quite understand this one. Are their some IranNeolithic samples in it. And do these mean yDNA T, A, C where found or that a R haplogroup was found and these are the calls for it? or is it something completely different.
    T = Thymine
    A = Adenine
    C = Citosine

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    What a glorious paper

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    Keeping the faith...
    ;)

    Now we need to look in the southwest steppe! each time it's more easy! (not in the east, now not in the northwest steppe, which is not existent de facto)...
    I see, we should stop looking and depend on your fantazy. This is how science is done, lol. If you ever cared for what I'm saying , try to find my idea about who I say invaded Iberia in BA.
    PS. Unlike yours, my predictions are never based on faith.
    I predict now that in 2 years you will stop showing up on Eupedia, from all the shame that none of your fantasies turned right. Though, if you do, you will keep blaming the "bad" papers, "bad" scientists, "bad" interpretations and us not understanding your "brilliant" visions. Unfortunately no amount of evidence will ever change your mind, because people of strong faith never forsake their religion.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    OK, so.

    This is very interesting and clarifies a lot of things, but it's nothing earth shattering to me:


    • We have an early group of Levantine/South Anatolian farmers in the Peloponnese. This is interesting, but the fact that there were more than one population of farmers moving into the Balkan peninsula isn't too surprising. It would be more strange if there was only a single source. I wish we had their Y-HGs, but we can probably make a good guess with this
    • We have R1b and I2a among European hunter gatherers. Nothing surprising especially after 1) Villabruna and 2) Baltic HG samples. Given the range of the epigravettian people should have expected R1b HGs in the Balkans. It is a little interesting that Latvian HG appears to have more AG reflecting pre-EHG contacts with "ANE".
    • R1b and R1a still appear to have arisen in Europe and Siberia among hunter gatherers prior to Bronze age dispersals.
    • R1b and R1a is still associated with the spread of IE. This doesn't change that despite what people are posting, but I guess given the pervading white supremacy in this whole discussion I'll be accepting of this in so far as it doesn't degenerate into complete denial.
    • We do see a very early interaction zone between HGs on the WHG-EHG cline and Balkan farmers, which is what I've always said would be the evidence of early departures of Anatolian and Italo-Celtic. I would bet that this signals the development of Anatolian.
    • The Anatolian bronze age samples are too old to disprove that Hittite came from the Balkans. The Hittite language itself is the oldest of IEs, but the Hittites aren't even in their historical seat until 2000BC at the earliest.
    • I will say that the J1a and the increase in Iran Neo/CHG in the Anatolian bronze age samples is consistent with a Caucasian/Iranian plateau PIE Homeland, but it's still highly unlikley given all the data we have and I don't think we need to spell it all out for the millionth time.
    • There was recently talk about Mycenean haplogroups and how they could or could not be R1a. We have an R1a in MLBA Bulgaria.
    • Maykop will be telling. There has been some discussion as to the possibility that Anatolian came from Maykop itself, which could be the case.


    Let's say we see a bunch of R1b in Maykop with mostly CHG samples. This would open things up, but it would still present problems. It would be hard to interpret and I think it would muddy things more that it would clarify.

    Alright gotta go to work.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Razib Khan's take on it:

    http://gnxp.nofe.me/2017/05/11/when-...medium=twitter

    For the record, I don't necessarily agree with everything he says.

    Btw, I highly recommend the books he showcases there.
    Last edited by Angela; 11-05-17 at 20:05. Reason: spelling


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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Btw, I highly recommend the books he showcases there.
    However the author of this blogpost appears to omit that Robert Drews argues for an Armenian homeland and a Greek migration from Anatolia into Greece in the Middle Bronze Age. That's why the main focus of his books is West Asia and the interaction between Indo-European & non-Indo-European populations in Anatolia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkoZ View Post
    However the author of this blogpost appears to omit that Robert Drews argues for an Armenian homeland and a Greek migration from Anatolia into Greece in the Middle Bronze Age. That's why the main focus of his books is West Asia and the interaction between Indo-European & non-Indo-European populations in Anatolia.
    and greek fables also states that the "rude" dorians came via the Pamir mountains
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    There we have the origin of Villabruna.

    But there seems to be allot of R1 clades during the mesolithic in Balkans. It rivals Mal'ta. As I argued in the past. R1 is far too old to be just the lineage of one group, and must have been spred around the globe much earlier. Also it is far to widespred outside of the Indo European context, so that we can determine Indo European ness with yDNA. Interestingly because these Paleolithic/Mesolithic R1 lineages show no Steppe ancestry.
    latest chit-chat on Villabruna is that he has no WHG and only has EHG ,,,,,,,,,,,,,I do not know the difference


    Mal`ta boy died at less than 10 years old

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkoZ View Post
    However the author of this blogpost appears to omit that Robert Drews argues for an Armenian homeland and a Greek migration from Anatolia into Greece in the Middle Bronze Age. That's why the main focus of his books is West Asia and the interaction between Indo-European & non-Indo-European populations in Anatolia.
    Yes, I know. That's why I said I don't agree with Khan totally. He needs to re-read Drews.

    @ Sile,
    Do you know who is stating Villabruna is EHG? A link would be great too.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.


    David Reich recently stated that there is no evidence of steppe migration through the Balkans into Anatolia and Reich was citing this paper (Mathieson et al. 2017) he co-authored. The steppe hypothesis of IE language origins suggests that IE languages were spread to Asia Minor by the movements of steppe people through the Balkans around 4000 BCE. However, steppe ancestry in the Balkan Peninsula is sporadic or low from the Copper Age to the Bronze Age and there is no evidence of mass migration from the steppes to the Balkans during the period. The Balkan mountain range was probably the geographical barrier for Yamnaya steppe herders from the north, while the Balkan Peninsula was readily accessible for Neolithic farmers from Anatolia.

    If this were correct, then one way to detect evidence of it would be the appearance of large amounts of characteristics teppe ancestry first in the Balkan Peninsula and then in Anatolia. However, our genetic data do not support this scenario. While we find steppe ancestry in Balkan Copper Age and Bronze Age individuals, this ancestry is sporadic across individuals in the Copper Age, and at low levels in the Bronze Age. Moreover, while Bronze Age Anatolian individuals have CHG / Iran Neolithic related ancestry, they have neither the EHG ancestry characteristic of all steppe populations sampled to date, nor the WHG ancestry that is ubiquitous in southeastern Europe in the Neolithic (Figure 1A, Supplementary Data Table 2, Supplementary Information section 1). This pattern is consistent with that seen in northwestern Anatolia and later in Copper Age Anatolia, suggesting continuing migration into Anatolia from the East rather than from Europe.
    Давайте вместе снова сделаем мир великий!

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Holderlin, thanks for the reasonable summary. Do you mean "until 2000 BC at the latest" rather than earliest, though? The Assyrian linguistic attestation of the Hittite presence at Kanesh can't be the earliest possible date Anatolian appears in Central Anatolia and thereabouts but the latest. I think Trevor Bryce's careful comments and summary about potential origins in 'The Kingdom of the Hittites' are relevant here.

    It's a shame we have no samples from further south in the Balkans though. We know the area had potential Anatolian and Balkan connections depending on the specific part and, as mentioned, there's also the question of whether proto-Greek was an intrusion from the Balkans or Anatolia. I guess the Aegean will have to wait for another day.

    @Sile, the Pamirs...say what?

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    Paper was good for I-M223 finds
    I2165 3020-2895 calBCE (4340±30 BP, Beta-432797) Bulgaria_EBA I2a2a1b1b
    I2175 3328-3015 calBCE (4445±35 BP, Ly-5515) Bulgaria_EBA I2a2a1b
    ILK001 2899-2706 calBCE Globular_Amphora_Ukraine I2a2a1b
    ILK002 2890-2694 calBCE Globular_Amphora_Ukraine I2a2a1b2 Z161
    I2441 3400-2800 BCE Globular_Amphora_Poland I2a2a1b
    I4914 6355-5990 calBCE Iron_Gates_HG I2a2a1b2 Z161
    I4878 6200-5900 BCE Iron_Gates_HG I2a2a
    I4880 6200-5900 BCE Iron_Gates_HG I2a2a1b2 Z161
    I4881 6200-5900 BCE Iron_Gates_HG I2a2a1b2 Z161
    I4882 6200-5900 BCE Iron_Gates_HG_brother_of_I4880 I2a2a1b
    I4551 6000-5100 BCE Latvia_HG I2a2a1
    I4553 6000-5100 BCE Latvia_HG I2a2a1
    I4596 6000-5100 BCE Latvia_HG I2a2a1b
    I3717 5500-4800 BCE Ukraine_Neolithic I2a2a1b1
    S5875.E1.L1 5500-4800 BCE Ukraine_Neolithic I2a2a1b
    I3714 5500-4800 BCE Ukraine_Neolithic I2a2a
    I3715 5500-4800 BCE Ukraine_Neolithic I2a2a1b1
    I1738 5473-5326 calBCE Ukraine_Neolithic I2a2a1b1b
    Falkenstein ThisStudy (New data; Individual first published in FuNature2016)
    7460-7040 calBCE (8185±80 BP, ETH-7615) WHG I2a2a
    Bul4 3012-2900 calBCE (4333±20 BP, MAMS-26834) Yamnaya_Bulgaria I2a2a1b1b

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    http://biorxiv.org/content/early/201...2.figures-only
    this was also good for I-M223
    I0518 England_Neolithic Great Britain I2a2
    I0520 England_Neolithic Great Britain I2a2a1
    I3134 Scotland_Neolithic Great Britain I2a2a1a1a
    I3135 Scotland_Neolithic Great Britain I2a2a
    I2657 Scotland_Neolithic Great Britain I2a2a...
    I2655 Scotland_MBA Great Britain I2a2a1a1a1
    I2933 Scotland_Neolithic Great Britain I2a2a1a1a2
    I2650 Scotland_Neolithic Great Britain I2a2a1b
    I2660 Scotland_Neolithic Great Britain I2a2a1a1a
    I2691 Scotland_Neolithic Great Britain I2a2a1
    I1767 BB_Britain Great Britain I2a2a1a1a
    I2786 BB_Central_Europe Hungary I2a2a

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Yes a lot of I2a2a. For a long time it seemed I2a1 dominated ancient European I2a but at least in Eastern Europe there was more I2a2a than I2a1.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    I see, we should stop looking and depend on your fantazy. This is how science is done, lol. If you ever cared for what I'm saying , try to find my idea about who I say invaded Iberia in BA.
    PS. Unlike yours, my predictions are never based on faith.
    I predict now that in 2 years you will stop showing up on Eupedia, from all the shame that none of your fantasies turned right. Though, if you do, you will keep blaming the "bad" papers, "bad" scientists, "bad" interpretations and us not understanding your "brilliant" visions. Unfortunately no amount of evidence will ever change your mind, because people of strong faith never forsake their religion.
    bla, bla, bla about me, but still without L-51 in your steppe.

    What is worst, this paper is havoc against IE popping from the steppe.
    "What I've seen so far after my entire career chasing Indoeuropeans is that our solutions look tissue thin and our problems still look monumental" J.P.Mallory

    "The ultimate homeland of the group [PIE] that also spread Anatolian languages is less clear." D. Reich

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkoZ View Post
    However the author of this blogpost appears to omit that Robert Drews argues for an Armenian homeland and a Greek migration from Anatolia into Greece in the Middle Bronze Age. That's why the main focus of his books is West Asia and the interaction between Indo-European & non-Indo-European populations in Anatolia.
    Analyzing admixtures just recently I came to the conclusion that this scenario is very realistic.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by LATGAL View Post
    Holderlin, thanks for the reasonable summary. Do you mean "until 2000 BC at the latest" rather than earliest, though? The Assyrian linguistic attestation of the Hittite presence at Kanesh can't be the earliest possible date Anatolian appears in Central Anatolia and thereabouts but the latest. I think Trevor Bryce's careful comments and summary about potential origins in 'The Kingdom of the Hittites' are relevant here.
    Thanks, yes I'm saying historically attested seat was around 1800-1700BC. To say when they got there prior to historical attestation would be something different. My point was that we don't need a chalcolithic migration from the Balkans. It could have easily been much later.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    bla, bla, bla about me, but still without L-51 in your steppe.

    What is worst, this paper is havoc against IE popping from the steppe.
    How? People keep saying this, but I'm not seeing it. Perhaps if you've argued for genesis exclusively on the steppe proper, but even then it's still very strong. R1b and R1a are still dispersing during the bronze from the Steppe/Eastern Europe, which is still associated with IE speakers.

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    I had heard that Villabruna looked more like a proto-EHG minus the ANE components than a WHG. I believe it was on here. I don't have a source or data.

  24. #74
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    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    Yes, in the Bronze Age the steppes were already IE, with the ancestors of Iranians and by some time by Greeks and Indic.

  25. #75
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2c1 PF3892+ (Swiss)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U4a (Cornish)

    Ethnic group
    3/4 Colonial American, 1/8 Cornish, 1/8 Welsh
    Country: USA - California



    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    Yes a lot of I2a2a. For a long time it seemed I2a1 dominated ancient European I2a but at least in Eastern Europe there was more I2a2a than I2a1.
    I agree with this, I2-M223 (aside from British-local subclades and the like) seems more broadly eastern and I2a1 seems more broadly western in the ancient context, which is an interesting contrast to modern frequencies, thanks to the expansion of I2a-Din in between. On the other hand, these results map well to what we would expect based on modern subclade diversity.

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