The genomic history of southeastern Europe-Mathiesen et al

[Promenade]

This is unexpected: The gold encrusted Varna King's ydna is listed as CT.

So he had direct paternal ancestry from hunter gatherers? Wonder how his family eventually came into power over time. His haplogroup seems to have been fairly rare by that time, so it's not a surprise that we no longer see it today. Dynastic lines can disappear quickly. I remember reading somewhere that 60 percent leave no heirs after just two centuries.

 

[Angela]

OK, so.

This is very interesting and clarifies a lot of things, but it's nothing earth shattering to me:

• We have an early group of Levantine/South Anatolian farmers in the Peloponnese. This is interesting, but the fact that there were more than one population of farmers moving into the Balkan peninsula isn't too surprising. It would be more strange if there was only a single source. I wish we had their Y-HGs, but we can probably make a good guess with this

the possible PPNB colonisation hypothesis had been already put by someones, without DNA, supposing at least 2 early different waves of farmers into S-E Europe - I wonder if Y-E1b upstream to E-V13 was not already among them (Pelopponese is a hotspot for E-V13 in Europe)

That's a good bet I think.

These people did lean a bit more Neolithic Iran than the Anatolia farmers, with less WHG like ancestry.

The authors maintain that ancestry from this group did not go north into Central Europe in any significant way, and the AN like farmer ancestry did get to Central Europe and took the maritime Cardial route. They do propose some of this Peloponnesus farmer ancestry could have seeped into Cardial, which is interesting in that someone just told me he heard the Avellenar sample has tested positive for the E-V13 snp. It would be great if someone could confirm that. They should re-test the Sopot one too.

I have always leaned toward believing that the precursor to E-V13 came to Europe with the farmers, an opinion which was strengthened by the Cardial find and then the Sopot find. Now we have three examples of at least precursors.

Ed. I had suggested an earlier PPNB farmer migration linked to the one that went to Cyprus. I also said on the thread here about Gamba et al and when the Thracian samples were discussed that I thought that the Balkans remained "farmer" heavy into the Iron Age.

Ed.Ed. Avellenar is listed as E-V13 in Jean's site, with a link to a table. She still has Sopot as M78. Let's see what happens with thisc Croatian one.

 

[Apsurdistan]

Oh another shocker the R1 sample isn't royal just merely a peasant? How is that possible?

 

[holderlin]

It's my understanding that almost all the R1a in the Balkans, certainly in Greece, is Balto-Slavic, so Medieval. There is a respectable amount of Yamnaya type R1b. The ancient samples for the Bronze Age show little downstream R1a or R1b in the Balkans, although there's I2a.

In terms of autosomal dna, there's about 10% "steppe" in the Early Bronze Age Balkans. There's more later, but as I said before, I think the 30% figure is misleading because it includes the one Z93 sample with very high steppe. I don't know if most of the Indo-European speakers took a different route, or just passed through, but there certainly doesn't seem to be any mass migration there in the Bronze Age. We only have one Iron Age Sample, but it has even less steppe.

Maybe more samples will change the situation, but that's what we have for now, and we have quite a few Bronze Age samples; I quickly counted 11, with a lot from Bulgaria, right on the path.

For accuracy, nobody had chariots in 4000 BC.

For now I'm going with the idea that there was a WHG related population in Anatolia.

As to the relationships between the hunter-gatherers, there is this from the paper.

View attachment 8676

The Neolithic R in Iran is from Ganj Dareh, Iran, as they all are, and is dated 8000 to 7700 BC. The other male is listed as CT. It's all in Table 5, right after the Globular Amphora and Iron Gates samples.

Ed. The Mycenaeans could still be Z93, of course, but a very small autosomal impact?

We are now reaching mental breakdown territory. Italic is related to Iranic, not Celtic? "Say it ain't so, Joe!"

Yes, there's no evidence of Chariots before 2000BC, or whatever, but I'm talking within the notion that Anatolian need not be in Anatolia by 4000BC, so I allowed myself the freedom of including chariots. Hittites definitely had chariots, probably as early as 1700BC, so anyway.

Greek is much younger than Italo-celtic, for starters, and what this paper is showing is a very old interaction zone between HGs on the WHG-EHG cline and Balkan farmers. This is where I see Anatolian and later on Italo-celtic originating. Greek is a latter IE language and so it makes perfect sense that it would displace Anatolian. The Mycenaeans DID have chariots so one could easily see them driving populations across the Hellespont.

And there is clear archaeological evidence of expansion into the Balkans during what one would presume would be the time frame for Mycenaean movement into the Greece.

 

[holderlin]

OK, so.

This is very interesting and clarifies a lot of things, but it's nothing earth shattering to me:

• We have an early group of Levantine/South Anatolian farmers in the Peloponnese. This is interesting, but the fact that there were more than one population of farmers moving into the Balkan peninsula isn't too surprising. It would be more strange if there was only a single source. I wish we had their Y-HGs, but we can probably make a good guess with this

the possible PPNB colonisation hypothesis had been already put by someones, without DNA, supposing at least 2 early different waves of farmers into S-E Europe - I wonder if Y-E1b upstream to E-V13 was not already among them (Pelopponese is a hotspot for E-V13 in Europe)

Well there you have it. In so many cases the archaeology is being confirmed by the genetics.

 

[epoch]

I think she can, since we have studies that exactly prove this. A study a year ago clearly stated that Paleolithic mainland Europeans were distinct from any known modern population.

In all models it is highly related to the Vestonice cluster. A sister clade. It is entirely possible that is spawns from it. As I said, it can be modeled as a mixture.

And WHG pops up just by mesolithic.

That is a matter terminology. Fu et al lobbed Loschbour in their Villabruna cluster

A clear distinction needs to be made here between WHG and WHG like. Anatolian farmers as well South Levantine farmers all the way to Natufian H&G have WHG like ancestry. It is unlikely that they received it. What the paper is actually trying to tell us is, that Peloponesse farmers derive from a different wave of farmers a merging of farmers coming from South Anatolia/the Levant as well Iranian Plateau. That is the reason it has less WHG like ancestry

True. However, in formal stats WHG picks Anatolian over any other old Middle-Eastern.

 

[Milan.M]

My best guess would be that if I1 is older it's place of origin would most likely be in the northeast Europe area and it migrated west into Scandinavia north Europe and dispersed from there perhaps sometime after the mesolithic, who knows when.
I just think I1 is one of the most puzzling HGs yet it barely gets any attention. Apparently it's not too important or interesting, I guess only the ones like R1 that happens to be the majority of Europeans is.

I'll say that contrary to everyone I1 has it's origin in lower Danube and place where was found in Hungarian Neolithic from where migrated north,just look at Norse bronze age the Trundholm sun chariot is full with Danubian influence or the much later Gundestrup cauldron which many admit it's Thracian origin.This connection shouldn't be disregarded.Your haplogroup arosed much more near where your origin is,from where migrated north.Just my opinion.

 

[epoch]

Yes. Disappointed? I didn't mean to imply it was the Ten Commandments fresh from the mountain top!

On the contrary. Did you notice they model KO1 (Hungarian HG) as ANE admixted? That is either mistake or there is going to be an update. KO1 has mtDNA R3 it shares with AG3

To the board:

Is this still correct?
Single Grave?, Denmark, RISE61 [4], R1a

Battle-Axe, Sweden, RISE94 [4], R1a
Battle-Axe?, Sweden, RISE98 [4], R1b

If I understand well the R1b of the Swedish Battle-Axe is U106.

EDIT: One of the Dutch Tuithoorn Bell Beaker samples has U106 as well.

 

[epoch]

Yes. Disappointed? I didn't mean to imply it was the Ten Commandments fresh from the mountain top!

It makes one wonder how far ANE stretched before LGM.

EDIT: It makes one realise how very few truly unadmixted ANE samples we have. One 1 Y-DNA (R*) and 2 mtDNA's (U and R3)

 

[holderlin]

Holderin the problem is you seem to have weak knowledge on some of these things you open up. A corner stone of the Kurgan Hypothesis is that the Anatolian branch reached Anatolia by 4000 BC because of linguistics, this are not my claims this is part of the theory, just because it doesn't taste you, don't claim it is a lie someone made up. Linguists date the arrival to 4000 BC. Your linguistic understanding is very low

The problem is that you ignore the vast swath of data that supports what I say, then arrogantly champion the few exceptions as if they carry the weight to actually change the whole picture.

It looks like my low linguistics knowledge was enough to tell that Iranian speakers were most certainly from the steppe. Scythian Paper et al "THEY'RE EASTERN SHIFTED! THAT'S ALL!" Yeah with BHG. lulz

Linguists date the FORMATION of Anatolia to 4000BC. An early arrival in Anatolia itself just helps everything else fit. It's not a "corner stone". It just fits Greek nicely into a latter "wave", but of course none of this was that simple. And I'm not even a Kurgan subscriber entirely. If you read what I wrote you would know that. I think The Baltic was speaking PIE as well, or a version of it, which probably pisses you off even more. What do you take to be the "Kurgan Hypothesis"? Gimbutas in the 70s, and that's it? Like it's an equation?

Yep they went on a long journey with their ultra advanced chariots (chariots are an Indo_Iranian thing by the way. 4000 BC Indo Europeans didn't had the spoked wheel charriots) without even the need to stop anywhere.

Yeah I'm suggesting a latter arrival, so chariots were on the table. Mycenaeans and Hittites definitely had chariots that's for sure, probably by 1700BC.

Perhaps this came from Iranians in the East? I dunno. This is more likely to be the case with the Hittites than with the Greeks though.

by migrating Greek speakers who according to the Kurgan hypothesis should have brought Steppe admixture with them. So you are telling me the reason why there is no or only sporadic Steppe admixture, is that they were replaced by another.... Steppe people? Please...

We don't even have the right samples. Most of these were way too old to say anything about Greek.

Notice that one of the two samples from the Balkans that dates to the time period for Mycenaean expansions is R1a. And remember that known historical Greek speakers extended North. I would like to see Shaft Grave samples that have no steppe, unfortunately I think we only have mtDNA.

 

[Milan.M]

The R1a was found in Bulgaria in burial mound,near what much later will be known as valley of Thracian kings and if anything this should be connected to Thracians,don't know why people keep bringing Mycenaeans, this two groups were distinct people.

 

[MarkoZ]

Linguists date the FORMATION of Anatolia to 4000BC. An early arrival in Anatolia itself just helps everything else fit. It's not a "corner stone". It just fits Greek nicely into a latter "wave", but of course none of this was that simple. And I'm not even a Kurgan subscriber entirely. If you read what I wrote you would know that. I think The Baltic was speaking PIE as well, or a version of it, which probably pisses you off even more. What do you take to be the "Kurgan Hypothesis"? Gimbutas in the 70s, and that's it? Like it's an equation.

The steppe 'works' because there's ample opportunity for Kartvelian & Semitic (or Afrasian?) contacts - i. e. the only languages that had definite influence on PIE per historical linguistics. These would be hard to explain in the case of a Baltic homeland.

Anthony believes that these influences arrived north of the Caucasus with Maikop.

 

[MarkoZ]

True. However, in formal stats WHG picks Anatolian over any other old Middle-Eastern.

You still don't understand that heavily West Eurasian Middle Easterners haven't been sampled yet - the oldest West Asian is the epi-Zarzian Hotu cave individual from northern Iran. Jones et al. model the Caucasus-Iranian influence that unambiguously appears in Villabrunna as having diverged from West Eurasian ~45 kya (though this figure might be slightly inflated due to Basal Eurasian ancestry):

Here, we extend our view of the genetic makeup of earlyEuropeans by both looking further back in time and samplingfrom the crossroads between the European and Asian continents.We sequenced a Late Upper Palaeolithic (‘Satsurblia’ fromSatsurblia cave, 1.4-fold coverage) and a Mesolithic genome(‘Kotias’ from Kotias Klde cave, 15.4-fold) from Western Georgia,at the very eastern boundary of Europe. We term these twoindividuals Caucasus hunter-gatherers (CHG). To extend ouroverview of WHG to a time depth similar to the one available forour samples from the Caucasus, we also sequenced a westernEuropean Late Upper Palaeolithic genome, ‘Bichon’ (9.5-fold)from Grotte du Bichon, Switzerland. These new genomes,together with already published data, provide us with a muchimprovedgeographic and temporal coverage of genetic diversityacross Europe after the Last Glacial Maximum (LGM)8. We showthat CHG belong to a new, distinct ancient clade that split fromWHG B45 kya and from Neolithic farmer ancestors B25 kya.

https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms9912

Of course WHG would show higher affinity to the heavily West Eurasian Anatolians. The Caucasus-Iran admixture in both the Anatolians & the Villabrunna cluster is rather negligible.

 

[Alpenjager]

Karsdorf Map


Malak Preslavets Map

 

[bicicleur 2]

This?

I've been telling many times that CHG admixture on the steppe had already started with Khvalynsk.

 

[Apsurdistan]

I'll say that contrary to everyone I1 has it's origin in lower Danube and place where was found in Hungarian Neolithic from where migrated north,just look at Norse bronze age the -Trundholm sun chariot is full with Neo Danubian influence or the much later Gundestrup cauldron which many admit it's Thracian origin.This connection shouldn't be disregarded.Your haplogroup arosed much more near where your origin is,from where migrated north.Just my opinion.

Yeah you might be right, that's why I'm hoping to see some I1 in these ancient samples in the Danube region or anywhere for that matter. But I don't see any M253, only I and I2's.

 

[bicicleur 2]

OK, so.

This is very interesting and clarifies a lot of things, but it's nothing earth shattering to me:

• We have an early group of Levantine/South Anatolian farmers in the Peloponnese. This is interesting, but the fact that there were more than one population of farmers moving into the Balkan peninsula isn't too surprising. It would be more strange if there was only a single source. I wish we had their Y-HGs, but we can probably make a good guess with this

the possible PPNB colonisation hypothesis had been already put by someones, without DNA, supposing at least 2 early different waves of farmers into S-E Europe - I wonder if Y-E1b upstream to E-V13 was not already among them (Pelopponese is a hotspot for E-V13 in Europe)

Upstream E-V13 was also in cardial ware Avelaner Cave, no need for different waves to explain that.
Upstream E-V13 could have been in any wave, after all the E-V13 founder was 1 single man.

 

[bicicleur 2]

OK, so.

This is very interesting and clarifies a lot of things, but it's nothing earth shattering to me:

• We have an early group of Levantine/South Anatolian farmers in the Peloponnese. This is interesting, but the fact that there were more than one population of farmers moving into the Balkan peninsula isn't too surprising. It would be more strange if there was only a single source. I wish we had their Y-HGs, but we can probably make a good guess with this

That's a good bet I think.

These people did lean a bit more Neolithic Iran than the Anatolia farmers, with less WHG like ancestry.

The authors maintain that ancestry from this group did not go north into Central Europe in any significant way, and the AN like farmer ancestry did get to Central Europe and took the maritime Cardial route. They do propose some of this Peloponnesus farmer ancestry could have seeped into Cardial, which is interesting in that someone just told me he heard the Avellenar sample has tested positive for the E-V13 snp. It would be great if someone could confirm that. They should re-test the Sopot one too.

I have always leaned toward believing that the precursor to E-V13 came to Europe with the farmers, an opinion which was strengthened by the Cardial find and then the Sopot find. Now we have three examples of at least precursors.

Ed. I had suggested an earlier PPNB farmer migration linked to the one that went to Cyprus. I also said on the thread here about Gamba et al and when the Thracian samples were discussed that I thought that the Balkans remained "farmer" heavy into the Iron Age.

Ed.Ed. Avellenar is listed as E-V13 in Jean's site, with a link to a table. She still has Sopot as M78. Let's see what happens with thisc Croatian one.

afaik the Avellaner was typed E-V13 by STR, but he is actualy to old to be E-V13
considering the geography he is unlikely to be the father of E-V13, but he might be an uncle

 

[bicicleur 2]

Yes, there's no evidence of Chariots before 2000BC, or whatever, but I'm talking within the notion that Anatolian need not be in Anatolia by 4000BC, so I allowed myself the freedom of including chariots. Hittites definitely had chariots, probably as early as 1700BC, so anyway.

Greek is much younger than Italo-celtic, for starters, and what this paper is showing is a very old interaction zone between HGs on the WHG-EHG cline and Balkan farmers. This is where I see Anatolian and later on Italo-celtic originating. Greek is a latter IE language and so it makes perfect sense that it would displace Anatolian. The Mycenaeans DID have chariots so one could easily see them driving populations across the Hellespont.

And there is clear archaeological evidence of expansion into the Balkans during what one would presume would be the time frame for Mycenaean movement into the Greece.

afaik the early Hittites didn't have charriots, the first ones in the area were the Mittani
the Hittites and the Egyptians learned about the charriots from the Mittani
they started a cold war and a war industry to produce charriots and swords, culminating in the Kadesh battle

IMO the Anatolians, when they arrived in Anatolia were simple herders, but with some social structure which finaly made them rule over or make alliances with other local farmer tribes. The Hittites were a federation with more or less independant allies. Some of them spoke even other non-IE (Hurrian) languages.

 

[epoch]

You still don't understand that heavily West Eurasian Middle Easterners haven't been sampled yet - the oldest West Asian is the epi-Zarzian Hotu cave individual from northern Iran. Jones et al. model the Caucasus-Iranian influence that unambiguously appears in Villabrunna as having diverged from West Eurasian ~45 kya (though this figure might be slightly inflated due to Basal Eurasian ancestry):

You are talking about this figure (fug. 2) I presume? Cause that doesn't have an "influence that unambiguously appears in Villabrunna", that shows both split off a long time ago from each other. It does OTOH show exactly what I proposed, WHG (Bichon in this case) influx in EEF. However, the EEF they used is Stuttgart and that had extra WHG over Anatolians so it could be that. After the Anatolian paper came out people played with those and D-stats showed WHG affinity to those and both Lazaridis 2016 and Fu 2016 model Satsurblia as some sort of Basal Eurasian with ANE or ANE+WHG admixture.

https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms9912

Of course WHG would show higher affinity to the heavily West Eurasian Anatolians. The Caucasus-Iran admixture in both the Anatolians & the Villabrunna cluster is rather negligible.

Anatolians are chosen over Natufians as well.