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Thread: The genomic history of southeastern Europe-Mathiesen et al

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    Now the question is what does he mean with Caucasian languages? There is no single Caucasian language family.

    2. Who says "these Caucasian languages" were already in the Caucasus during the Late Neolithic? For example Kartvellian looks more like an Anatolian_Farmer language.

    3. Kartvellian as well Semitic influence is attested in Proto Indo European as even by Anthony. So how can Hittite not have it?
    Read the highly interesting thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    4. Most peeps (especially their Mods and Admins) on Anthrogenica are high nosed kids that can't deal with opposing ideas and criticism. "Caucasian language substrata" yeah sure
    No they are not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by holderlin View Post
    Then why didn't they speak Caucasian?
    Who said they did not carry caucasian.........North-caucasian is PIE , before Anatolian got a branch of PIE ~4000BC

    BTW, stop deflecting and changing what I said .............I did not say caucasus, I said north-caucasus
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boreas View Post
    North Caucasian ???

    That supposes to be North Mesopotamia desn't it?

    Hurrians then Hatti, then Hitties
    no they learnt extra from hatti and mitanni language to create hittite .................Anatolia was the first branch from PIE in the north caucasus , Hatti was not the first branch from PIE

    And as you study hittite, they also incorporated other anatolian scripts, Palaic and carien to name 2..........both from PIE

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    We have a I1 autosomally farmer sample from the Hungarian Neolithic.
    Mesolithic SHG from Stora Forvar, StF11, was I1 as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkoZ View Post
    The more interesting question is why some people thought R1b wouldn't be in the Balkan HGs.
    I suggested that R1b was in Mesolithic Balkans on Anthrogenica one year ago (May 2016).

    I also suggested that the Balkan HGs were not overran by Anatolian farmers, and that their R1b survived in the Balkans until the Copper Age, and was present in Varna culture. I was ridiculed back then (especially my idea that Balkan R1b could survive the onslaught of farmers was ridiculed). But this paper confirms what I suggested.

    This paper proves that the Balkan HGs survived the initial expansion of farmers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    The hypothesis that the Anatolian languages (Hittite, Luwian, Lycian, Lydian etc.) came into Anatolia from the steppe via the Balkans is looking increasingly dubious imo.

    I don't know of a single linguist, or even non-linguist, like Anthony, who doesn't date Anatolian to around 4500-4000 BC. based on many factors, including relative chronology.

    There was never any archaeological evidence for any movement from the Balkans to Anatolia around that time; indeed, the movement went in the opposite direction.

    Now we discover that there was very little steppe ancestry in the Balkans around that time. (You have to look at the dates and Admixture among other things.)

    The argument has been made that perhaps these languages didn't enter Anatolia until long after 4000 BC., when there was some more steppe. Ok, let's look at that scenario.

    If the Anatolian speakers weren't in Anatolia, where were they? We have to have a rational alternative. They can't have been on the steppe, because then these languages wouldn't be so archaic; they would exhibit the changes present in late PIE. They couldn't have been in the Balkans either for the same reason. Plus the diversity of the Anatolian languages is in Anatolia, and it took place by 1800 BC. It takes at least 1-2000 years for that kind of diversity to develop. I don't see anything in what we know about how languages develop, or what we know about the Anatolian languages that would lend support to the idea that they weren't in Anatolia by 4000 BC.

    Now, one could say that maybe it was a very small group which moved through the Balkans into Anatolia. However, could a very small group of simple herders, in a migration too small to leave any archaeological trace, have spawned so many Indo-European speakers? It's starting to seem like special pleading.

    The other part of the genetics piece of the puzzle is that steppe has to show up in Anatolia at an appropriate time.

    As Hittite is attested in actual documents in the 19th century BC, any steppe found in the Balkans or Anatolia after that time isn't probative of anything. The authors of the paper state they find neither WHG nor EHG in their Bronze Age Anatolian samples. Now that's a problem because you can't have steppe without them. It's true that Hittites burned their dead. However, they weren't the only Anatolian language speakers. There are the Luwians, for example. Does anyone know if any of the samples come from any of the Indo-European speaking areas?

    I find it hard to believe that the Reich Lab, given the thousands of samples they have, and given the Lazaridis West Asian paper that is soon to come out, is deliberately steering us in the wrong direction.

    I used to think that the Anatolian languages could have come south from the steppe through the Caucasus, but if they find no steppe in any Indo-European speaking areas at the proper time, what then?


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatolian_languages

    Here's a direct link to the map below so it's larger.

    north of the Palaic are non-IE languages of the kaska people

    Kaskian (Kaskean) was a non-Indo-European language of the Kaskians of northeastern Bronze Age Anatolia, in the mountains along the Black Sea coast.

    ........................

    North-west of Palaic and west of the kaska are the only Thraki lands in Anatolia ..............west of these Thraki is the troad, what did they speak , no ones knows except that they found some Luwian texts in Troy

    .........................

    north Levant as per map was non-semitic luwian populace under hittite reign ..............the first semitic people in the north levant where the phoenicians ~1000bC

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    I suggested that R1b was in Mesolithic Balkans on Anthrogenica one year ago (May 2016).

    I also suggested that the Balkan HGs were not overran by Anatolian farmers, and that their R1b survived in the Balkans until the Copper Age, and was present in Varna culture. I was ridiculed back then (especially my idea that Balkan R1b could survive the onslaught of farmers was ridiculed). But this paper confirms what I suggested.

    This paper proves that the Balkan HGs survived the initial expansion of farmers.
    bear in mind that mesolithic Balkans were uninhabited except some few coastal areas
    the Danube Gorge, just north of the Balkans were inhabited since 9-10 ka
    it was a very good ecological niche for HG fishers
    and they developped a unique culture when they came in contact with farmers ca 8.3 ka till 8 ka
    their main diet remained fish
    they lived in huts with plastered floors
    they had sculptures, half-human, half-fish
    their living conditions was much better than that of the farmers

    check this out

    http://www.donsmaps.com/lepenski.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    I suggested that R1b was in Mesolithic Balkans on Anthrogenica one year ago (May 2016).

    I also suggested that the Balkan HGs were not overran by Anatolian farmers, and that their R1b survived in the Balkans until the Copper Age, and was present in Varna culture. I was ridiculed back then (especially my idea that Balkan R1b could survive the onslaught of farmers was ridiculed). But this paper confirms what I suggested.

    This paper proves that the Balkan HGs survived the initial expansion of farmers.

    That's good. In the table I see it labeled as R1 though (R1:M306). In the PCA I think it's closer to people from Hungary to UK, whatever that means. The rest from Varna are closer to Sicilians to Tuscans or EEFs or something.

    Edit: Sorry, I'm wrong the outlier that clusters somewhere between modern Hungarians to people from UK is a female. So, even the R1 guy was farmer shifted. (?)
    I would like to see if he's the one that clusters with Tuscans.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by holderlin View Post
    I got caught up in all this Anatolian BS and I forgot the most splendid part about this paper: The Sredny Stog genomes.

    If you recall my musing, whether you like them or not, I see Sredny Stog as the basis for Bell Beaker and perhaps even Corded Ware, since it does hold the first example of cord ornamented pottery. "West Yamnaya" would have arose from these people. There's no reason for a source in the East. I do think Samara was the epi-center early on, and I would assign a measure of priority, but Sredny Stog became Yamnaya just as Khvalynsk did on a material culture basis.

    Along with the nice mix of R1b and R1a we see in the latter phase, just before Yamnaya what is a 4 way mix of Steppe-WHG(iron gates no doubt)-Ukraine Mesolithic-and EEF.

    Then when it becomes "West Yamnaya" we have Steppe and EEF mix

    And here's the kicker: Among "West Yamnaya" samples in the balkans itself (Bulgaria) we have a 3 way mix of Steppe-Ukrainian Mesolithic-EEF.

    Yes, that's right. It's not only steppe in the balkans, but an actual Yamnaya grave in the Balkans that is 40% steppe, 40% EEF, and 20% Iron gates (WHG).

    If I had to make a brazen amateurish guess I would say that these guys were speaking Anatolian, and offer a clear, real explanation as to why there may be a less than massive influx of steppe into the Aegean.

    Even a Yamnaya sample itself in the Balkans was only 40% steppe. Think about that.
    Did I miss something? Where did this paper test Sredny Stog genomes? There were plenty of Neolithic Ukraine, but they date from 5500 to 4800 BCE, while Sredny Stog only starts from 4500 BCE. All the R1b in Neolithic Ukraine were very old L754 and L388 (not even P297 like in Latvia). None were M269+, let alone L23+.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkoZ View Post
    Don't blame the German - German language research barring a brief interlude of Nordicist extremism (imported from France & England) was always significantly more balanced when compared to English attempts. An Asian homeland was seriously considered in continental Europe, however English researchers did not like the notion that they were related to the 'so-called ******s of India'. The English also deemed the idea of white conquerors politically expedient as a justification of their colonial holdings in South Asia.

    As recently as the 1990s no serious historian would quote the JIES of Mallory, Ivanov, Anthony et al. because it was considered an Aryanist rag founded by well-known Hitlerite Pearson. He received millions from rich amateurs and organizations like the Pioneer Fund which gave them the quasi-monopoly in anglophone Indo-European research. We're not talking about a quaint old racist here, but a proponent of Nordicist eugenics who actually wants to exterminate brown people. Mallory apparently had no qualms about working with or more accurately for the guy
    I certainly knew about the rabid racists like Gobineau and Chamberlain (for those who don't, see the link below), but I thought that was a thing of the past.

    See:
    https://www.britannica.com/topic/rac...ctions-of-race

    I knew nothing of this Pearson person and his funding of the JIES. Are you sure about it?

    See:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_...nthropologist)
    https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-h.../roger-pearson

    How very disappointing. I've wondered for years why the obvious contradictions and gaps weren't more vigorously investigated, and why alternate theories weren't more discussed. Follow the money perhaps, and it may be true today as well. It doesn't mean large parts of the kurgan hypothesis aren't correct, but it does explain why the more romanticized, "value-added" portions are still in circulation despite more recent research showing a lot of it is nonsense.


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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    bear in mind that mesolithic Balkans were uninhabited except some few coastal areas
    the Danube Gorge, just north of the Balkans were inhabited since 9-10 ka
    it was a very good ecological niche for HG fishers
    and they developped a unique culture when they came in contact with farmers ca 8.3 ka till 8 ka
    their main diet remained fish
    they lived in huts with plastered floors
    they had sculptures, half-human, half-fish
    their living conditions was much better than that of the farmers

    check this out

    http://www.donsmaps.com/lepenski.html
    Yes, we have discussed before that this was the only attested large hg community in the Balkans, (well, maybe not really the Balkans depending on the person to whom you're speaking, but close enough) and any interaction would have taken place there. Even so, going by the Admixture runs in this paper, there was extremely little genetic exchange until the Middle Neolithic/Chalcolithic, as is the case for all of Europe.

    I usually leave the fanciful stuff to other people, but might this be related to population crashes? The authors note that in the EN it was hg women who were absorbed, but in the MN it was hg men, hence the I2 that starts showing up. The first is understandable; perhaps slightly more men than women migrated from Anatolia, but what about the second? Could this be related to crop failures and population crashes? In that kind of environment, a man who knew all the best fishing holes and where the animals were hiding would start to look more attractive. It might not matter if he wasn’t much of a farmer. That would explain not only all the autosomally farmer I2a men who start showing up but the R1b1a Lepinski Vir farmer too. Do you see any autosomally hg I2a and R1b1a people surviving into the Middle Neolithic? Not from these samples, right?

    (In North American Indian societies, the men are primarily hunters, fishers and warriors, and the rest of the time they loaf around and tell stories. The original couch potatoes. It’s mostly the women who farm. Not a system of which I approve. :))

    Missing from the graphic are the tv remote, headphones, and laptop. :)


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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Heaps of new ancient European DNA
    Britain Neolithic mtDNA is most similar to Iberia Neolithic mtDNA. Northern Bell Beaker had lots lots lots of Steppe mtDNA, more than modern Irish or British. British U5a=6%, Northern BBC U5a=15%. U5a1a and U5a1b run a monapoly on modern European U5a1. In the huge array of ancient European mtDNA out there U5a1a hasn't been found outside of Steppe-influenced cultures. Outside of Steppe-influenced cultures U5a1b has only been found in Ukraine Neolithic.

    Starting last year I began to be tempted by the idea that the descendants of the N1a1a-rich farmers in Germany and Hungary left little legacy in modern Europeans. That the farmers from Iberia and Eastern Europe left the biggest legacy.

    The new data from Eastern Europe and Iberia doesn't strongly stupport this idea but it definitly doesn't refute it. Northern Bell Beaker's WHG levels can't be explained by currently available Middle Neolithic German or Hungarian genomes. Northern Bell Beaker's farmer ancestor had similar WHG levels to Globular_Amphora and Iberia Chalolithic.

    0% of the Bulgarian farmers, British farmers, Polish farmers, and post-Early Neolithic Iberians have N1a1a. I already have found plenty of mtDNA links between Neolithic Atlantic/Eastern Europe with many modern European populations. The European EEF=East Europe and Atlantic is just an idea I flirt with, I don't strongly support it.

    I'm on the brink of an explosion in European mtDNA knowledge. In the next couple of weeks there will probably be lots of interesting posts on my blog.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Yes, we have discussed before that this was the only attested large hg community in the Balkans, (well, maybe not really the Balkans depending on the person to whom you're speaking, but close enough) and any interaction would have taken place there. Even so, going by the Admixture runs in this paper, there was extremely little genetic exchange until the Middle Neolithic/Chalcolithic, as is the case for all of Europe.

    I usually leave the fanciful stuff to other people, but might this be related to population crashes? The authors note that in the EN it was hg women who were absorbed, but in the MN it was hg men, hence the I2 that starts showing up. The first is understandable; perhaps slightly more men than women migrated from Anatolia, but what about the second? Could this be related to crop failures and population crashes? In that kind of environment, a man who knew all the best fishing holes and where the animals were hiding would start to look more attractive. It might not matter if he wasn’t much of a farmer. That would explain not only all the autosomally farmer I2a men who start showing up but the R1b1a Lepinski Vir farmer too. Do you see any autosomally hg I2a and R1b1a people surviving into the Middle Neolithic? Not from these samples, right?

    (In North American Indian societies, the men are primarily hunters, fishers and warriors, and the rest of the time they loaf around and tell stories. The original couch potatoes. It’s mostly the women who farm. Not a system of which I approve. :))

    Missing from the graphic are the tv remote, headphones, and laptop. :)

    I don't know. During and right after LGM European HG were mobile reindeer hunters. They were following their prey on thier journeys between summer and winter pastures.
    Then the forests started to grow and along came the Villabrunans who conquered large parts of Europe. Once they found an intersting spot they settled down. Their prey wasn't so mobile either and fishing and gathering (done by the women?) became an important supplement to their diet.
    The drowning of Doggerland must have caused overpopulation in areas like the southern Baltic where many tribes lived very close to each with their onw rituals but without intermingling. In fact they were probably at war with each other most of the time, very frequently quareling over territories and women.

    I've always had the impression the EHG remained somewhat more mobile, moving up and down streams and lakes with canoes.

    Lepenski Vir is a very intersting story and I am glad we finally have some DNA now, but it will take some time for me to digest.

    Megalithism was already in Evora, Portugal 8 ka, before the arival of the first cardial ware farmers. In Brittany it emerged in HG territory ca 6.9 ka , but these HG probably already had contacts with LBK farmers further inland. Both areas were quite densely populated by HG, relying heavily on sea food.
    In southern Portugal, new cardial ware settlements emerged 7.4-7 ka and the HG sea food settlements seem to slowly dissapear, as if the HG population becomes extinct. That is what archeologists taught, but now DNA proves them wrong.
    Megalithic people became farmers, but if you check, they have a very high percentage of I2 versus G2a and a very high percentage of U5 versus farmers mtDNA.
    Apart from an initial move from the LBK and Swifterbant area in eastern England, the British Isles were colonised by megalithic farmers.
    Later megalithism also spread more inland with Michelsberg culture and north to the southern Baltic into the late TRB culture.

    But megalithism is just something on the western fringes of Europe.
    Also in central Europe there was a resurgence of haplo I2.
    I have no clue how this came about.
    We have the story of the Blatterhöhle HG who remained fisher HG for almost 2000 years next to the incoming farmers.

    Swifterbant is another story, it is in the western Netherlands, you should check these guys too. It is about HG coming into contact with the LBK further inland and through trade creating a new, very diversified economy. We should get their DNA, but I guess it will be hard to find in these soils.

    I can't cite big papers, I'm just telling you some impressions I get after reading little things here and there.
    When I'll check and digest these new papers further, I'm sure more stories will start to grow in my head.

    P.S. I think women were very often regarded as just servant slaves by both farmers and HG.

    How about this pic :




    it reminds me of the findings in the Catal Hoyuk graveyard, as well as in Abu Huryera, with old males and young females with wornout joints, probably from hard labour, something I brought up elsewhere

    Catal Hoyuk was nevertheless seen as a matriarchal society, with the fertile mother earth as goddess

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%87atalh%C3%B6y%C3%BCk
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by bicicleur; 15-05-17 at 09:30.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    I don't know. During and right after LGM European HG were mobile reindeer hunters. They were following their prey on thier journeys between summer and winter pastures.
    Then the forests started to grow and along came the Villabrunans who conquered large parts of Europe. Once they found an intersting spot they settled down. Their prey wasn't so mobile either and fishing and gathering (done by the women?) became an important supplement to their diet.
    The drowning of Doggerland must have caused overpopulation in areas like the southern Baltic where many tribes lived very close to each with their onw rituals but without intermingling. In fact they were probably at war with each other most of the time, very frequently quareling over territories and women.

    I've always had the impression the EHG remained somewhat more mobile, moving up and down streams and lakes with canoes.

    Lepenski Vir is a very intersting story and I am glad we finally have some DNA now, but it will take some time for me to digest.

    Megalithism was already in Evora, Portugal 8 ka, before the arival of the first cardial ware farmers. In Brittany it emerged in HG territory ca 6.9 ka , but these HG probably already had contacts with LBK farmers further inland. Both areas were quite densely populated by HG, relying heavily on sea food.
    In southern Portugal, new cardial ware settlements emerged 7.4-7 ka and the HG sea food settlements seem to slowly dissapear, as if the HG population becomes extinct. That is what archeologists taught, but now DNA proves them wrong.
    Megalithic people became farmers, but if you check, they have a very high percentage of I2 versus G2a and a very high percentage of U5 versus farmers mtDNA.
    Apart from an initial move from the LBK and Swifterbant area in eastern England, the British Isles were colonised by megalithic farmers.
    Later megalithism also spread more inland with Michelsberg culture and north to the southern Baltic into the late TRB culture.

    But megalithism is just something on the western fringes of Europe.
    Also in central Europe there was a resurgence of haplo I2.
    I have no clue how this came about.
    We have the story of the Blatterhöhle HG who remained fisher HG for almost 2000 years next to the incoming farmers.

    Swifterbant is another story, it is in the western Netherlands, you should check these guys too. It is about HG coming into contact with the LBK further inland and through trade creating a new, very diversified economy. We should get their DNA, but I guess it will be hard to find in these soils.

    I can't cite big papers, I'm just telling you some impressions I get after reading little things here and there.
    When I'll check and digest these new papers further, I'm sure more stories will start to grow in my head.

    P.S. I think women were very often regarded as just servant slaves by both farmers and HG.

    How about this pic :




    it reminds me of the findings in the Catal Hoyuk graveyard, as well as in Abu Huryera, with old males and young females with wornout joints, probably from hard labour, something I brought up elsewhere

    Catal Hoyuk was nevertheless seen as a matriarchal society, with the fertile mother earth as goddess

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%87atalh%C3%B6y%C3%BCk

    Thanks for your insights, Bicicleur.

    There I am, perpetually cooking. :) For me, though, it's a choice, as is spending hours in my garden, and I'm happy doing it.

    Seriously, the posture, the grinding, this could be a woman in rural Mexico, or India, or Africa. For most women today not much has changed, although life is difficult for both men and women in the Third World.

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    With regard to the discussions upthread about the Villabrunians/WHG, there is this bit from the paper.

    "we note that the Iron Gates hunter-gatherers 269 carry mitochondrial haplogroups K1 (8/36) as well as other subclades of haplogroup U 270 (27/36) and haplogroup H (1/36). This contrasts with WHG, EHG and Scandinavian hunter- gatherers who almost all carry haplogroup U5 or U2. Therefore the Iron Gates hunter- gatherers have ancestry that is not present in WHG or EHG. This suggests either genetic contact between the ancestors of the Iron Gates population and hunter-gatherers from Anatolia, or that the Iron Gates population is related to the source population from which the WHG split off during a post-LGM re-expansion into Europe."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Thanks for your insights, Bicicleur.

    There I am, perpetually cooking. :) For me, though, it's a choice, as is spending hours in my garden, and I'm happy doing it.

    Seriously, the posture, the grinding, this could be a woman in rural Mexico, or India, or Africa. For most women today not much has changed, although life is difficult for both men and women in the Third World.
    It's only the first generation and only in the western world where different roles for men and women are abolished which is a good thing.
    Modern jobs don't require physical skills any more for which men or women are more fit.

    That being said, upto a certain level, men should still be men and women be women.
    They have a different way of thinking and they have different interests.
    It's in the DNA and that won't and shouldn't change, otherwise the world will become much more boring.

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    I've read again that the epicardial Avellanar sample snp tested positive for E-V13. If that's correct, could someone post a reliable source for that?

    Anyway, the Croatian Cardial samples:
    C1a2:V20:6845955G->A; C1a2:V86:6909957G->A; C1:CTS6773:17100606C->T; C1:F3393:23023974C->A; C:CTS2377:14281450G->A; C:CTS2550:14359235G->A; C:CTS2955:14587658T->C; C:CTS3221:14742373C->T; C:CTS3223:14755880C->T; C:CTS4676:15762839A->G; C:CTS5813:16490115G->A; C:CTS6266:16780809G->A; C:CTS7301:17412198T->C; C:CTS7930:17748163T->C; C:CTS10442:19457443A->G; C:CTS10707:22714249G->A; C:CTS10720:22726491C->T; C:CTS10782:22775162C->A; C:CTS11544:23158264C->G; C:CTS11598:23185632A->G; C:CTS11820:23294948T->C; C:F847:6879365C->T; C:F1241:8482631G->C; C:F1288:8537273G->A; C:F1367:8640245C->G; C:F1804:14603298C->T; C:F1911:15097043C->T; C:F2253:16757900C->T; C:F2434:17270957A->C; C:F2449:17341195G->T; C:F2485:17457010C->T; C:F2606:17820514C->T; C:F2678:18030738C->T; C:F2858:18832816T->C; C:F2869:18843140C->T; C:F2888:18890063C->T; C:F2969:19182853C->G; C:F3043:19411754G->A; C:F3319:22575539A->G; C:F3395:23031841G->A; C:F3462:23553006C->T; C:F3537:23769373A->G; C:F3703:16409159C->A; C:F3712:17957903T->C; C:F3719:22937380C->A; C:IMS-JST029149:2803297C->T; C:P255:8685038G->A; C:V1234:7584247G->C; C:Y1767:21186558A->G; C:Y2798:13865051G->T; C:Y2799:21875538T->C; C:Y4496:8127435A->G; C:Y6691:15896404A->G; C:Z3958:7869808C->T; C:Z3977:8673832C->T; C:Z3986:9076205C->T; C:Z4004:13228027G->T; C:Z4014:13656195T->A; C:Z4059:21291275G->A; C:Z4073:21566042C->T; C:Z4083:21809035G->A; C:Z4099:22168468A->G; C:Z7177:8668533C->T;
    E1b1b1a1b1:CTS3287:14801129A->G; E1b1b1a1b1:CTS5291:16189080T->G; E1b1b1a1b1:CTS5527:16345952A->G; E1b1b1a1b1:CTS7273:17396160C->T; E1b1b1a1b1:L618:15339697T->C; E1b1b1a1b1:PF2215:8262442A->G; E1b1b1a1b1:PF2246:22073053G->A; E1b1b1a:CTS8899:18538216C->A; E1b1b1a:L546:17516070C->T; E1b1b1a:PF2108:7804308C->T; E1b1b1a:PF2114:8232450C->A; E1b1b1a:PF2173:21036413C->T; E1b1b1a:PF2178:21583211C->A; E1b1b1a:PF2188:22080316G->A; E1b1b1:CTS2216:14221285G->T; E1b1b1:CTS3637:15089380A->G; E1b1b1:CTS6298:16808859A->G; E1b1b1:CTS6834:17138251A->G; E1b1b1:CTS7154:17325559G->T; E1b1b1:CTS9956:19170454C->T; E1b1b1:CTS10184:19316389A->T; E1b1b1:L796:21358197T->C; E1b1b1:M5041:21491115A->G; E1b1b1:M5047:21977569C->T; E1b1b1:M5078:7721674G->A; E1b1b1:M5108:8880108G->A; E1b1b1:M5322:22181731G->A; E1b1b1:M5360:23618826C->T; E1b1b1:PF1575:9389773T->G; E1b1b1:PF1619:13848122T->C; E1b1b:CTS225:2827409C->T; E1b1b:CTS8479.1:18045601C->T; E1b1b:CTS9049:18637397C->G; E1b1b:CTS10513:19503700T->C; E1b1b:CTS10679:22700429G->A; E1b1b:CTS11223:23021729G->A; E1b1b:L336:21903853G->A; E1b1b:M5082:7905833C->T; E1b1b:M5083:7906010A->G; E1b1b:M5101:8692771C->T; E1b1b:M5305:21658631G->C; E1b1:P2:21610831G->A; E1:CTS955:7104553C->T; E1:CTS5913:16550700G->A; E1:CTS9083:18662674G->A; E1:CTS9753:19058376G->A; E:CTS860:7052802A->T; E:CTS2893:14545105G->A; E:CTS3199:14718400A->G; E:CTS4685:15768559C->T; E:CTS4994:15945309G->A; E:CTS5316:16203354A->G; E:CTS6755:17092499G->T; E:CTS8631:18118658C->G; E:CTS10296:19379113T->C; E:CTS10344:19414935G->T; E:CTS10894:22823374A->C; E:CTS11504:23142339C->G; E:L339:6931856C->Thet; E:L504:21385724C->G; E:L507:22688731G->C; E:L614:23249378C->T; E:M40:2663943C->T; E:M5382:6631743C->A; E:M5406:7913358G->A; E:M5416:8469322C->T; E:M5417:8532844C->T; E:M5418:8612630C->G; E:M5422:8703052T->G; E:M5425:8799243T->C; E:M5431:9394763A->T; E:M5527:21256219G->A; E:M5529:21314704T->C; E:M5533:21408046G->C; E:M5545:21747107T->C; E:M5569:24399592C->T; E:M5571:24437979C->T; E:P154:19500107G->T; E:P169:22918577C->T; E:P171:23443971G->T; E:P172:6965215C->T; E:P174:15809326G->A; E:PF1608:13559017G->T; E:PF1620:13883812C->A; E:PF1843:22270345G->A; E:PF1844:22270687T->G; E:PF1864:22469799A->C; E:Z15669:13424256G->T; E:Z15670:13470384C->G; E:Z15673:13828327G->A; E:Z15674:13841166G->A; E:Z15681:22271529A->C;

    The link with the Cardial Neolithic for this branch of "E" is established, I think.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    With regard to the discussions upthread about the Villabrunians/WHG, there is this bit from the paper.

    "we note that the Iron Gates hunter-gatherers 269 carry mitochondrial haplogroups K1 (8/36) as well as other subclades of haplogroup U 270 (27/36) and haplogroup H (1/36). This contrasts with WHG, EHG and Scandinavian hunter- gatherers who almost all carry haplogroup U5 or U2. Therefore the Iron Gates hunter- gatherers have ancestry that is not present in WHG or EHG. This suggests either genetic contact between the ancestors of the Iron Gates population and hunter-gatherers from Anatolia, or that the Iron Gates population is related to the source population from which the WHG split off during a post-LGM re-expansion into Europe."
    The Basal K is linked with CHG, but K1 is linked with mesolithic Greece, Boncuklu and Tepecik, that is Y-DNA G2a.
    Do we have the autosomal of the Iron Gates population? Of course the neolithic does, but also the mesolithic should contain EEF.

    I also don't understand how U5 spread over both EHG and WHG.
    It seems to me that R1 was linked with mtDNA C, but they soon took over U5, which I suspect was already all over Europe before R1 arrived there.
    R1 were wanderers who prefered the local U5.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I've read again that the epicardial Avellanar sample snp tested positive for E-V13. If that's correct, could someone post a reliable source for that?
    If I remember well it was only estimated to be V13 based on the STR, but was not SNP-tested. So it's probably not V13. That would be too early. Probably just M78.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I've read again that the epicardial Avellanar sample snp tested positive for E-V13. If that's correct, could someone post a reliable source for that?

    Anyway, the Croatian Cardial samples:
    C1a2:V20:6845955G->A; C1a2:V86:6909957G->A; C1:CTS6773:17100606C->T; C1:F3393:23023974C->A;
    E1b1b1a1b1:CTS3287:14801129A->G; E1b1b1a1b1:CTS5291:16189080T->G; E1b1b1a1b1:CTS5527:16345952A->G; E1b1b1a1b1:CTS7273:17396160C->T; E1b1b1a1b1:L618:15339697T->C; E1b1b1a1b1:PF2215:8262442A->G; E1b1b1a1b1:PF2246:22073053G->A; E1b1b1a:CTS8899:18538216C->A; E1b1b1a:L546:17516070C->T; E1b1b1a:PF2108:7804308C->T; E1b1b1a:PF2114:8232450C->A; E1b1b1a:PF2173:21036413C->T; E1b1b1a:PF2178:21583211C->A; E1b1b1a:PF2188:22080316G->A; E1b1b1:CTS2216:14221285G->T;

    The link with the Cardial Neolithic for this branch of "E" is established, I think.
    the Cardial pre-L619 fits nicely with TMRCA dates of YFull (Cardial ware spread over the Adriatic ca 8 ka)

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-L618/

    I guess Avelaner was pre-L619 too, unless you find a reliable source (although pre-V13 would just fit the 7.6 ka TMRCA of L618 compared to 7.5 ka arival of Cardial Ware in Iberia)

    a European origin for E-V13 seems almost certain.

    note that the neolithic C1a2-V86 split 42.8 ka from the mesolithic La Brana C1a2-V20*, compared to 43.5 ka as the earliest date for the Aurignacian in Willendorf

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/C-V20/

    H2 is almost extinct, C1a2 is less than 1 % of the European population
    it shows that most neolithic branches got extinct, only a few branches re-expanded later, E-V13 being one of them

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I've read again that the epicardial Avellanar sample snp tested positive for E-V13. If that's correct, could someone post a reliable source for that?

    According to the study it was tested for the V13 SNP:

    Y-Chromosomal Results. For the six male samples, two complete and four partial Y-STRs haplotypes were obtained (Table 3). They allowed classification of individuals into two different haplogroups:G2a (individuals ave01, ave02, ave03, ave05, and ave06, which seem to share the same haplotype) and E1b1b1 (individualave07). The four markers chosen to confirm belonging to these haplogroups (Y-E1b1b1-M35.1, Y-E1b1b1a1b-V13, Y-G2-M287, and Y-G2a-P15) were typed with a rate of 66%, which permitted confirmation that four males were G2a and one was E1b1b1a1b (Table 3).
    source: Ancient DNA suggests the leading role played by menin the Neolithic dissemination



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    Quote Originally Posted by Shetop View Post
    According to the study it was tested for the V13 SNP:



    source: Ancient DNA suggests the leading role played by menin the Neolithic dissemination


    this is STR, not SNP for four of them (which ones?)
    and at the time of this study, the split between L618* and E-V13 was not even known

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    this is STR, not SNP for four of them (which ones?)
    and at the time of this study, the split between L618* and E-V13 was not even known
    Y-Chromosomal Results. For the six male samples, two complete and four partial Y-STRs haplotypes were obtained (Table 3). They allowed classification of individuals into two different haplogroups:G2a (individuals ave01, ave02, ave03, ave05, and ave06, which seem to share the same haplotype) and E1b1b1 (individualave07). The four markers chosen to confirm belonging to these haplogroups (Y-E1b1b1-M35.1, Y-E1b1b1a1b-V13, Y-G2-M287, and Y-G2a-P15) were typed with a rate of 66%, which permitted confirmation that four males were G2a and one was E1b1b1a1b (Table 3).

    The four mentioned markers are SNP markers: Y-E1b1b1-M35.1, Y-E1b1b1a1b-V13, Y-G2-M287, and Y-G2a-P15. All samples were tested for these SNPs.

    Regarding L618 they do not mention it in the study, so I don't understand how knowing or not knowing about L618 is relevant here? As they state in the study they tested only 4 SNPs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Did I miss something? Where did this paper test Sredny Stog genomes? There were plenty of Neolithic Ukraine, but they date from 5500 to 4800 BCE, while Sredny Stog only starts from 4500 BCE. All the R1b in Neolithic Ukraine were very old L754 and L388 (not even P297 like in Latvia). None were M269+, let alone L23+.
    Dereivka is a Sredy Stog site. We have a bunch of Y DNA, I'm only seeing one autosomal sample in the admixture runs though, from a late period.

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