The genomic history of southeastern Europe-Mathiesen et al

However the author of this blogpost appears to omit that Robert Drews argues for an Armenian homeland and a Greek migration from Anatolia into Greece in the Middle Bronze Age. That's why the main focus of his books is West Asia and the interaction between Indo-European & non-Indo-European populations in Anatolia.

and greek fables also states that the "rude" dorians came via the Pamir mountains
 
There we have the origin of Villabruna.

But there seems to be allot of R1 clades during the mesolithic in Balkans. It rivals Mal'ta. As I argued in the past. R1 is far too old to be just the lineage of one group, and must have been spred around the globe much earlier. Also it is far to widespred outside of the Indo European context, so that we can determine Indo European ness with yDNA. Interestingly because these Paleolithic/Mesolithic R1 lineages show no Steppe ancestry.

latest chit-chat on Villabruna is that he has no WHG and only has EHG ,,,,,,,,,,,,,I do not know the difference


Mal`ta boy died at less than 10 years old
 
However the author of this blogpost appears to omit that Robert Drews argues for an Armenian homeland and a Greek migration from Anatolia into Greece in the Middle Bronze Age. That's why the main focus of his books is West Asia and the interaction between Indo-European & non-Indo-European populations in Anatolia.
Yes, I know. That's why I said I don't agree with Khan totally. He needs to re-read Drews.

@ Sile,
Do you know who is stating Villabruna is EHG? A link would be great too.
 
Reich_screenshot.png


David Reich recently stated that there is no evidence of steppe migration through the Balkans into Anatolia and Reich was citing this paper (Mathieson et al. 2017) he co-authored. The steppe hypothesis of IE language origins suggests that IE languages were spread to Asia Minor by the movements of steppe people through the Balkans around 4000 BCE. However, steppe ancestry in the Balkan Peninsula is sporadic or low from the Copper Age to the Bronze Age and there is no evidence of mass migration from the steppes to the Balkans during the period. The Balkan mountain range was probably the geographical barrier for Yamnaya steppe herders from the north, while the Balkan Peninsula was readily accessible for Neolithic farmers from Anatolia.

If this were correct, then one way to detect evidence of it would be the appearance of large amounts of characteristics teppe ancestry first in the Balkan Peninsula and then in Anatolia. However, our genetic data do not support this scenario. While we find steppe ancestry in Balkan Copper Age and Bronze Age individuals, this ancestry is sporadic across individuals in the Copper Age, and at low levels in the Bronze Age. Moreover, while Bronze Age Anatolian individuals have CHG / Iran Neolithic related ancestry, they have neither the EHG ancestry characteristic of all steppe populations sampled to date, nor the WHG ancestry that is ubiquitous in southeastern Europe in the Neolithic (Figure 1A, Supplementary Data Table 2, Supplementary Information section 1). This pattern is consistent with that seen in northwestern Anatolia and later in Copper Age Anatolia, suggesting continuing migration into Anatolia from the East rather than from Europe.
 
Holderlin, thanks for the reasonable summary. Do you mean "until 2000 BC at the latest" rather than earliest, though? The Assyrian linguistic attestation of the Hittite presence at Kanesh can't be the earliest possible date Anatolian appears in Central Anatolia and thereabouts but the latest. I think Trevor Bryce's careful comments and summary about potential origins in 'The Kingdom of the Hittites' are relevant here.

It's a shame we have no samples from further south in the Balkans though. We know the area had potential Anatolian and Balkan connections depending on the specific part and, as mentioned, there's also the question of whether proto-Greek was an intrusion from the Balkans or Anatolia. I guess the Aegean will have to wait for another day.

@Sile, the Pamirs...say what?
 
Paper was good for I-M223 finds
I2165 3020-2895 calBCE (4340±30 BP, Beta-432797) Bulgaria_EBA I2a2a1b1b
I2175 3328-3015 calBCE (4445±35 BP, Ly-5515) Bulgaria_EBA I2a2a1b
ILK001 2899-2706 calBCE Globular_Amphora_Ukraine I2a2a1b
ILK002 2890-2694 calBCE Globular_Amphora_Ukraine I2a2a1b2 Z161
I2441 3400-2800 BCE Globular_Amphora_Poland I2a2a1b
I4914 6355-5990 calBCE Iron_Gates_HG I2a2a1b2 Z161
I4878 6200-5900 BCE Iron_Gates_HG I2a2a
I4880 6200-5900 BCE Iron_Gates_HG I2a2a1b2 Z161
I4881 6200-5900 BCE Iron_Gates_HG I2a2a1b2 Z161
I4882 6200-5900 BCE Iron_Gates_HG_brother_of_I4880 I2a2a1b
I4551 6000-5100 BCE Latvia_HG I2a2a1
I4553 6000-5100 BCE Latvia_HG I2a2a1
I4596 6000-5100 BCE Latvia_HG I2a2a1b
I3717 5500-4800 BCE Ukraine_Neolithic I2a2a1b1
S5875.E1.L1 5500-4800 BCE Ukraine_Neolithic I2a2a1b
I3714 5500-4800 BCE Ukraine_Neolithic I2a2a
I3715 5500-4800 BCE Ukraine_Neolithic I2a2a1b1
I1738 5473-5326 calBCE Ukraine_Neolithic I2a2a1b1b
Falkenstein ThisStudy (New data; Individual first published in FuNature2016)
7460-7040 calBCE (8185±80 BP, ETH-7615) WHG I2a2a
Bul4 3012-2900 calBCE (4333±20 BP, MAMS-26834) Yamnaya_Bulgaria I2a2a1b1b
 
http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2017/05/09/135962.figures-only
this was also good for I-M223
I0518 England_Neolithic Great Britain I2a2
I0520 England_Neolithic Great Britain I2a2a1
I3134 Scotland_Neolithic Great Britain I2a2a1a1a
I3135 Scotland_Neolithic Great Britain I2a2a
I2657 Scotland_Neolithic Great Britain I2a2a...
I2655 Scotland_MBA Great Britain I2a2a1a1a1
I2933 Scotland_Neolithic Great Britain I2a2a1a1a2
I2650 Scotland_Neolithic Great Britain I2a2a1b
I2660 Scotland_Neolithic Great Britain I2a2a1a1a
I2691 Scotland_Neolithic Great Britain I2a2a1
I1767 BB_Britain Great Britain I2a2a1a1a
I2786 BB_Central_Europe Hungary I2a2a
 
Yes a lot of I2a2a. For a long time it seemed I2a1 dominated ancient European I2a but at least in Eastern Europe there was more I2a2a than I2a1.
 
I see, we should stop looking and depend on your fantazy. This is how science is done, lol. If you ever cared for what I'm saying , try to find my idea about who I say invaded Iberia in BA.
PS. Unlike yours, my predictions are never based on faith.
I predict now that in 2 years you will stop showing up on Eupedia, from all the shame that none of your fantasies turned right. Though, if you do, you will keep blaming the "bad" papers, "bad" scientists, "bad" interpretations and us not understanding your "brilliant" visions. Unfortunately no amount of evidence will ever change your mind, because people of strong faith never forsake their religion.

bla, bla, bla about me, but still without L-51 in your steppe.

What is worst, this paper is havoc against IE popping from the steppe.
 
However the author of this blogpost appears to omit that Robert Drews argues for an Armenian homeland and a Greek migration from Anatolia into Greece in the Middle Bronze Age. That's why the main focus of his books is West Asia and the interaction between Indo-European & non-Indo-European populations in Anatolia.
Analyzing admixtures just recently I came to the conclusion that this scenario is very realistic.
 
Holderlin, thanks for the reasonable summary. Do you mean "until 2000 BC at the latest" rather than earliest, though? The Assyrian linguistic attestation of the Hittite presence at Kanesh can't be the earliest possible date Anatolian appears in Central Anatolia and thereabouts but the latest. I think Trevor Bryce's careful comments and summary about potential origins in 'The Kingdom of the Hittites' are relevant here.

Thanks, yes I'm saying historically attested seat was around 1800-1700BC. To say when they got there prior to historical attestation would be something different. My point was that we don't need a chalcolithic migration from the Balkans. It could have easily been much later.
 
bla, bla, bla about me, but still without L-51 in your steppe.

What is worst, this paper is havoc against IE popping from the steppe.

How? People keep saying this, but I'm not seeing it. Perhaps if you've argued for genesis exclusively on the steppe proper, but even then it's still very strong. R1b and R1a are still dispersing during the bronze from the Steppe/Eastern Europe, which is still associated with IE speakers.
 
I had heard that Villabruna looked more like a proto-EHG minus the ANE components than a WHG. I believe it was on here. I don't have a source or data.
 
Yes, in the Bronze Age the steppes were already IE, with the ancestors of Iranians and by some time by Greeks and Indic.
 
Yes a lot of I2a2a. For a long time it seemed I2a1 dominated ancient European I2a but at least in Eastern Europe there was more I2a2a than I2a1.

I agree with this, I2-M223 (aside from British-local subclades and the like) seems more broadly eastern and I2a1 seems more broadly western in the ancient context, which is an interesting contrast to modern frequencies, thanks to the expansion of I2a-Din in between. On the other hand, these results map well to what we would expect based on modern subclade diversity.
 
ID# i0700 ...........T1a1a - CTS4916 ............mtdna = T2e

and

ID# i1108............T1a1 - PF5658 ............mtdna = T2e


Both are found in Bulgaria ......
 
there's T too? so pretty much everything except I1
this is bullshit
 
Paper was good for I-M223 finds
I2165 3020-2895 calBCE (4340±30 BP, Beta-432797) Bulgaria_EBA I2a2a1b1b
I2175 3328-3015 calBCE (4445±35 BP, Ly-5515) Bulgaria_EBA I2a2a1b
ILK001 2899-2706 calBCE Globular_Amphora_Ukraine I2a2a1b
ILK002 2890-2694 calBCE Globular_Amphora_Ukraine I2a2a1b2 Z161
I2441 3400-2800 BCE Globular_Amphora_Poland I2a2a1b
I4914 6355-5990 calBCE Iron_Gates_HG I2a2a1b2 Z161
I4878 6200-5900 BCE Iron_Gates_HG I2a2a
I4880 6200-5900 BCE Iron_Gates_HG I2a2a1b2 Z161
I4881 6200-5900 BCE Iron_Gates_HG I2a2a1b2 Z161
I4882 6200-5900 BCE Iron_Gates_HG_brother_of_I4880 I2a2a1b
I4551 6000-5100 BCE Latvia_HG I2a2a1
I4553 6000-5100 BCE Latvia_HG I2a2a1
I4596 6000-5100 BCE Latvia_HG I2a2a1b
I3717 5500-4800 BCE Ukraine_Neolithic I2a2a1b1
S5875.E1.L1 5500-4800 BCE Ukraine_Neolithic I2a2a1b
I3714 5500-4800 BCE Ukraine_Neolithic I2a2a
I3715 5500-4800 BCE Ukraine_Neolithic I2a2a1b1
I1738 5473-5326 calBCE Ukraine_Neolithic I2a2a1b1b
Falkenstein ThisStudy (New data; Individual first published in FuNature2016)
7460-7040 calBCE (8185±80 BP, ETH-7615) WHG I2a2a
Bul4 3012-2900 calBCE (4333±20 BP, MAMS-26834) Yamnaya_Bulgaria I2a2a1b1b

8753–8351 calBCE Iron_Gates_HG Serbia I2a1
5780-5640 calBCE Koros_Hungary_ I2a1
4491-4357 calBCE Lengyel_LN Hungary I2a1
6000-5100 BCE Latvia_HG I2a1
6000-5100 BCE Latvia_HG I2a1
8280-7967 calBCE Vasil'evka .. Ukraine I2a1
3360-3086 calBCE Esperstedt Germany I2a1b1a1
2900-2679 calBCE El Mirador Cave, Atapuerca, Burgos Spain I2a1a1a
5310-5078 calBCE Iberia_EN I2a1b1


6655-6225 calBCE Iron_Gates_HG Serbia I2
7340-6640 calBCE Iron_Gates_HG Romania I2

There is also some I and IJ on some sites,i think i missed some but most of them are here.
 
Only one R1a as i can see from South-East Europe (Balkans) to be found in the Bronze age;
Merichleri, Kairyaka necropolis burial mound 1750-1625 calBCE (3400±30 BP, Beta-432796) Bulgaria Balkans_Bronze Age R1a1a1b2

By that time the Thracian ethnogenesis were done. One hypothesis states Thracians to be mixture from "indegenous people" and mixture with Multi-cordoned ware culture ( Middle Bronze Age (22nd – 18th centuries b.c.) Tribes of this culture inhabited an area stretching from the Don to Moldavia, including Dnieper Ukraine, Right-bank Ukraine, and part of the modern Ternopil oblast, and was bordered by the Volga to the east. The culture succeeded the western Catacomb culture.
 
Thanks, yes I'm saying historically attested seat was around 1800-1700BC. To say when they got there prior to historical attestation would be something different. My point was that we don't need a chalcolithic migration from the Balkans. It could have easily been much later.

It is so in general that people arrive before they are historically attested. And the main linguistic point is, if Hittite came from the Steppes via Balkan route it needs to have arrived in Anatolia already by 4000 BC, due to several reasons.

One being Hittites very archaic- ness so the divergence from Proto Indo European must be very recent.

Second being that the divergence within the Anatolian languages being quite significant (Luwian, Lydian, Hittite) and therefore has to have happened around 5000 years. What that means is Anatolian Branch HAS to have arrived in Anatolia prior to 3000 BC, since it is to be expected that the Anatolian Branch diverged on the Anatolian Plateau because A: there are no other languages of the Anatolian Branch outside Anatolia (with the exception of very early Hittite sites in Kurdistan and Iran(among the Kassites and Subarians)

And B: it is extremely unlikely that all the Anatolian branches arrived in Anatolia one by one.

So yes going by science, the Anatolian branch has to had arrived there prior to 2000 BC, more around 3000-4000 BC.
 
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