Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 26 to 33 of 33

Thread: The Population Genomics Of Archaeological Transition In West Iberia

  1. #26
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    15,163
    Points
    268,585
    Level
    100
    Points: 268,585, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    This paper was already discussed here:
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...ncestry+Iberia

    I will merge the two threads.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

  2. #27
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteranTagger First Class50000 Experience PointsRecommendation First Class
    Awards:
    Discussion Ender
    LeBrok's Avatar
    Join Date
    18-11-09
    Location
    Calgary
    Posts
    10,329
    Points
    110,111
    Level
    100
    Points: 110,111, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b Z2109
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1c

    Ethnic group
    Citizen of the world
    Country: Canada-Alberta



    I think they based their analyses on existing samples, and confirmed what we already knew or suspected.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

  3. #28
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteranTagger First Class50000 Experience PointsRecommendation First Class
    Awards:
    Discussion Ender
    LeBrok's Avatar
    Join Date
    18-11-09
    Location
    Calgary
    Posts
    10,329
    Points
    110,111
    Level
    100
    Points: 110,111, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b Z2109
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1c

    Ethnic group
    Citizen of the world
    Country: Canada-Alberta



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    This paper was already discussed here:
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...ncestry+Iberia

    I will merge the two threads.
    That's why it sounded familiar. :)

  4. #29
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    15,163
    Points
    268,585
    Level
    100
    Points: 268,585, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    With the actual publication here there is the data full supplement which might untangle some of this. There's a lot of new data.
    http://journals.plos.org/plosgenetic...1006852#sec024

    Before diving into the supplement, it does seem to me that those first movements from the east, as LeBroc pointed out, might be from groups around Baden and before that from southwestern Yamnaya which didn't have much if any Iran like CHG. The percentage of CHG was much higher in Corded Ware. It would only be with Urnfield like, much later movements, that we get the typical EHG/CHG like populations which would have brought Indo-European like languages.

    So, the people who first brought downstream R1b to Iberia seem to have been mainly EHG plus MN from Central Europe, were mostly male, and presumably didn't come in very large numbers, and thus made not that great an impact on the total genetics of Bronze Age Iberia? They also, being such a small group, didn't perhaps change the language?

  5. #30
    Regular Member Achievements:
    5000 Experience PointsVeteran
    berun's Avatar
    Join Date
    24-11-15
    Posts
    1,084
    Points
    8,674
    Level
    27
    Points: 8,674, Level: 27
    Level completed: 88%, Points required for next Level: 76
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    If I remeber well, the preprint said that BA_Portugueses had some EHG introgression, in the published paper I don't find this weird statement.

    Even so they stick on the big steppe bullshit, they don't care much if Yamnayans were R1b-Z2105 with CHG, or that their supposed CW relatives were R1a with also a good chunk of CHG. Such CHG share is not present in BA_Portugal, but even so for the authors such guys came somehow from East Europe... but precisely the CHG watermark clearly points from where they were not coming. They were not IE.

    So, the people who first brought downstream R1b to Iberia seem to have been mainly EHG plus MN from Central Europe, were mostly male, and presumably didn't come in very large numbers, and thus made not that great an impact on the total genetics of Bronze Age Iberia? They also, being such a small group, didn't perhaps change the language?
    But 3 in 3 BA_Portuguese were R1b, nowadays half of the Portuguese are R1b, so if I say that the male R1b migration was quite big surely I will be more certain. And if the migration was big, why the autosomal would lack the characteristic Yamnaya-CW CHG EHG R1a Z2105 watermarks?
    "What I've seen so far after my entire career chasing Indoeuropeans is that our solutions look tissue thin and our problems still look monumental" J.P.Mallory

    "The ultimate homeland of the group [PIE] that also spread Anatolian languages is less clear." D. Reich

  6. #31
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    15,163
    Points
    268,585
    Level
    100
    Points: 268,585, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by Roi View Post
    A recent study on Plos Genetics (sorry, but I am not able to publish links) seems to confirm Maciamo hypothesis on the origin of basque language and brings new evidence to something that has already been noted: ancient Iberia got much less steppe DNA than Central & Northern Europe.


    This findings are consistent with the study published two years ago by PNAS, that pointed that basque people would come more from neolithic settlers than from mesolithic hunter gatherers, as it had been previously thought.


    The new study reinforces Maciamo theory that R1b arrived to the Basque Country via small groups of indo-european warriors, that, thanks to their more advanced weapons, could took a ruling status over a much wider neolithic population, whose male lineages went slowly fading from Y-Chromosomes thanks to a bigger reproductive capability (they got more wives and a healthier offspring...); which doesn't correlates with a similar shift on the general genetic structure of the populations as a whole. Thus, R1b hg echoes the higher status of those ruling elites, and its also their more significant legacy.


    To me, this situation explains very well the lingustic structure of eastern Iberia and southern France from the Bronce Age to the Iron Age, as non-IE languages were spoken there (Iberian, Basque / Aquitanian). But I still wonder why IE languages did root on central and western Iberia (Celtiberians, Lusitanians, Gallaics, Asturians, Cantabrians...)... interestingly, the remnants examined on the study linked above, proceed from Portugal, where IE speakers are known to have lived.


    Moreover, to me it is still a mystery the genesis of celtic dialects in central Iberia. Lusitanian language phylogeny is disputed, and rather considered non-celtic (para-italic, para-germanic or a different branch of IE on its own), a little bit as venetic in ancient Italy. Others say it is celtic in their oldest stages, and some follow Cunliffe in his statement that Iberia is the very cradle of celtic languages (that would have follow an evolution illustrated with Tartessian > Lusitanian > Celtiberian > Old Irish... which seems consistent in time and space with the spread of Bell Beakers). Besides, celtiberian affinity to old Irish (both of them Q-celtic) and the Irish oral tradition point to a possible arrival of Q-Celt to Ireland from Iberia, which doesn't seem coherent, on the other hand, with the genetic differences between the Peninsula and the Isles.


    So, to me the questions now to solve the ancient Iberia puzzle would be:


    Why did a IE-speaking Iberia ever existed, with such a small steppe peoples introgression?
    Which is the filiation of Lusitanian tribes within the IE peoples, and when did they arrived?
    Where did Q-Celtic dialects first appeared, and why are they present in Iberia and Ireland?


    I advance the following hypothesis:


    IE peoples entered Iberia in two waves. The first of them went all their way west and occupied mainly the western part of the peninsula, more adapted to their pastoralist life-style, and less crowded than the Mediterranean and Southern Coasts. They Indo-europeanized the previous neolithic iberians. They spoke a proto-italo-celto-germanic dialect, which developed from Tartessian (with many influxes from Iberian and Phoenicians, which would explain the misterious semitic influence on celtic languages) to Lusitanian, Celtiberian, Gallaic, Asturian, Cantabrian and other IE dialects from western Iberian, some of which fit into the celtic deffinition (Celtiberian and Gallaic and Cantabrian to some extent) and some that don't (Lusitanian, Asturian, Waccaean, Vettonian, Carpetian...). From the Tagus river mouth, the BB culture spread northwards (using commercial networks previously used by "Iberians" (pre-IE neolithic) peoples to spread the Megalithic culture) reaching Britany and Ireland, and carrying old celtic (Q-celtic) languages with them, and some R1b-DF27 along the Atlantic façade of Europe. Interestingly, there is a R1b-DF27 hotspot on the Benelux, next to the Rhine river mouth. This river was the axis of expansion of Bell Beakering into Central Europe, and it was on its very springs, on the Alps, where this Q-celtic peoples / languages met the Hallstatt peoples the first identified as properly celtic. This model would explain the lack of Hallstatt findings on western Iberia and Ireland, the Q-celtic spread and the allegedly semitic background of celtic languages. On central Europe, Q-celtic language joined a larger community of genetically Indoeuropean peoples; and make their way backwards (as R1b-L21; R1b-S28) to the Isles, Gaul, Italy and eastern Iberia; carrying La Tène elements and P-celtic dialects that never reached western Iberia, and only scarcely arrived to Ireland...


    What do you think about it?
    I know I can have made many mistakes... but celtic languages origin and expansion, specially on Iberia, is still subject of debate... which is your guess about it?
    We already have a thread for this. I will merge them.

  7. #32
    Regular Member Achievements:
    5000 Experience PointsVeteran
    berun's Avatar
    Join Date
    24-11-15
    Posts
    1,084
    Points
    8,674
    Level
    27
    Points: 8,674, Level: 27
    Level completed: 88%, Points required for next Level: 76
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    Genetiker has produced two admixture tables (K = 12 and K = 14); I find his tables quite reliable... but now he got an slap about the complicated path to follow admixture analysis without computing all pops. K = 12 merges WHG and EHG, which provides to BA_Portugal a 5% CHG and around 5% of ANI and Natufian... (what a trek!)
    ;)

    The K = 14 provides a 20% EHG (without CHG!)... but the MN and LN/CA grandfathers receive a 5% also, even El Portalón CA people get 20% EHG.

    The steppemania is quite funny, Yamnayans can be R1b-Z2013, R1b-M269, R1a, lack the CHG half if necessary, and if they were well disposed, learn Basque forgetting their IE, or getting the BB package forgetting their Yamnayan package.

    Maybe there would come a time where steppists will realize how ridiculous is all it.

  8. #33
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    26-11-16
    Posts
    48
    Points
    1,320
    Level
    9
    Points: 1,320, Level: 9
    Level completed: 85%, Points required for next Level: 30
    Overall activity: 3.0%


    Country: Peru



    I'm posting Y-SNP calls here:

    Y-SNP calls from prehistoric Portugal

    TV32032 was R1b1a1a2a1a-L151. It has some positive downstream calls, but I haven't closely examined them yet.

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •