Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 2 of 8 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast
Results 26 to 50 of 199

Thread: J2b as an IE lineages of the ancient Illyrians & Mycenaeans

  1. #26
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience PointsThree Friends
    Nik's Avatar
    Join Date
    21-11-10
    Posts
    435
    Points
    5,439
    Level
    21
    Points: 5,439, Level: 21
    Level completed: 78%, Points required for next Level: 111
    Overall activity: 53.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-V13>CTS9320>Z38456

    Ethnic group
    Albanian
    Country: Switzerland



    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Apsurdistan View Post
    Cuz it's on wikipedia and some academia people talk about it then it must be solid truth that shouldn't ever be questioned. Don't care if magnets spoke indo-european, I don't wanna google it, it's stupid and fanatical and exaggerated. And most people don't know what it is nor do they care or make anything out of it cuz it's a fringe meaningless subject.
    Ignorant (non-offensive) members (like myself) should do more reading than posting, unless you're genuinely trying to learn through questions after failing to get your answers from researching them on your own.

    Since you're a Bosniak, how do say 'sit' in your mother tongue? Just from my knowledge I know sit (Eng), siediti (Italian), sentarse (Spanish). Similarly, how do you say "give me"? In Italian its dammi by the way. U see the similarities? If that tells u nothing then find urself another hobby. Note how I didn't choose a word like 'wheel' that has a higher chance to be borrowed.

    With regards to the article, very interesting.

    @Maciamo
    Are u basing your theory that J2b came from the Steppe due to its 1/3 Steppe admixture alone?

    It could still be pre-IE in the Balkans.

  2. #27
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    17-03-16
    Posts
    526
    Points
    5,076
    Level
    21
    Points: 5,076, Level: 21
    Level completed: 6%, Points required for next Level: 474
    Overall activity: 30.0%


    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I have explained that on the J2 page. J2b was found in Neolithic Iran. It just needed to migrate north along the Caspian Sea, either through the Caucasus or through Central Asia, and voilà!



    I think he was originally claiming (like Goga) that J2a was the original IE haplogroup (probably for personal reasons) as he favoured the Anatolian origin hypothesis (also for personal reason since his family is from the Pontus region of Anatolia).
    Imo, that's what you did with the blonde R1b Indoeuropeans, the R1b Dorians and the R1a Myceneans.
    Btw, Goga is 'R1a*'

  3. #28
    Banned Achievements:
    31 days registered250 Experience Points

    Join Date
    13-04-17
    Posts
    283

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I-Z63
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H5c

    Ethnic group
    Bošnjak
    Country: Yugoslavia



    Of course there's gonna be a little similarity like 1-5% which is still very small, too small to put into a same language family. And considering the proximity and longevity of these populations co-existing extremely small. Comparing South Slavic to Romance, Albanian, Greek, German. We call Germans Njemci which literally means mutes-can't speak.

  4. #29
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points
    bicicleur's Avatar
    Join Date
    27-01-13
    Location
    Zwevegem, Belgium
    Posts
    5,334
    Points
    45,963
    Level
    66
    Points: 45,963, Level: 66
    Level completed: 30%, Points required for next Level: 987
    Overall activity: 45.0%


    Country: Belgium - Flanders



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    One question would be how did that J2b lineage get to the Volga?

    Didn't Dienekes claim at one point that J2b was the marker of Indo- Europeans? Maybe he thought they brought CHG like ancestry to Europe? Maybe I'm misremembering.
    it makes sense
    all J were herders

  5. #30
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Recommendation Second ClassThree FriendsVeteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    17-01-15
    Posts
    322
    Points
    5,693
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,693, Level: 22
    Level completed: 29%, Points required for next Level: 357
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J-L283

    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by IronSide View Post
    The current J2b in Tatars and Chuvashs is a young clade with older cousin clades in the Balkans and central Europe J-Y12000, so it got there from the Balkans. Goths maybe, or Huns, I don't know, but someone in the early middle ages moved it there, that could actually be the pattern with other Balkan haplogroups as well, found in volga urals or deep beyond in the steppe, I can think of E-V13, I1 and some Balkan R1b-CTS9219, moved to the steppes from the Balkans, not the other way around.

    However, that doesn't mean J2b2a1-L283 or a deeper subclade can't be Indo-European, ancient dna has been found that may support that, I have my doubts but still, extremely low frequency in Crete and western Anatolia doesn't suggest they took that migration route, like the Minoans I used to think Balkan J2b must have come from the same source, Kura-Araxes ? I don't know if Archaeology supports that, I'm giving that culture too much power

    I would refer to Trojet's post above, he said it better than me.
    Thank you! Perhaps he will pay attention to your post, as I've already tried to explain to him a few times the situation with the Volga/Ural J2b2.
    Y-DNA: J-L283
    Maternal Y-DNA: E-V13

  6. #31
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    12-10-16
    Posts
    182
    Points
    2,956
    Level
    15
    Points: 2,956, Level: 15
    Level completed: 69%, Points required for next Level: 94
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-BY611

    Country: Albania



    Trojet eloquently addressed your J2b comment, so I couldn't add anything even if I wanted to. However, your Q comments got me curious and did some quick research after I read your opening post ;)

    From what I see, Serbian DNA project has few Q samples from Hvar and Korcula (can't post links) and most seem to fall under L245 (also where the Jewish Q cluster is), one Q-L712 and one Q-L56 (probably both Hunic/Mongol legacy).

    Anyhow I am no expert on Q, but seems like a long shot to me to associate Q with Illyrians/Indo-Europians looking at the evidence above lol

  7. #32
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    8,696
    Points
    697,304
    Level
    100
    Points: 697,304, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 27.0%


    Ethnic group
    Italo-celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    Quote Originally Posted by IronSide View Post
    The current J2b in Tatars and Chuvashs is a young clade with older cousin clades in the Balkans and central Europe J-Y12000, so it got there from the Balkans. Goths maybe, or Huns, I don't know, but someone in the early middle ages moved it there, that could actually be the pattern with other Balkan haplogroups as well, found in volga urals or deep beyond in the steppe, I can think of E-V13, I1 and some Balkan R1b-CTS9219, moved to the steppes from the Balkans, not the other way around.

    However, that doesn't mean J2b2a1-L283 or a deeper subclade can't be Indo-European, ancient dna has been found that may support that, I have my doubts but still, extremely low frequency in Crete and western Anatolia doesn't suggest they took that migration route, like the Minoans I used to think Balkan J2b must have come from the same source, Kura-Araxes ? I don't know if Archaeology supports that, I'm giving that culture too much power

    I would refer to Trojet's post above, he said it better than me.
    The young age of the Volga-Ural subclades is problematic. Everything seemed to make perfect sense until you pointed that out. J2b1, J2b2-L283 and R1b-Z2103 are all found among the Mordovians in the Middle Volga region at frequencies similar to those observed in Greece. The Mordovians, Greeks and people in the Dinaric Alps also possess a fair amount of R1a-CTS1211, which we could have presumed to have come in part from the Illyrians and Mycenaeans (although the biggest part is thought to have come with the Slavic migrations). We had a cluster of four haplogroups that aren't normally found together elsewhere except in the Balkans and among the Mordovians. That was too good to be true. I couldn't checked the age of R1b-Z2103 and R1a-CTS1211 in each region because there is too little data. But as far as J2b2-L283 in concerned, there seems indeed to have been a migration from the Balkans to the Volga-Ural during the Middle Ages, about 1000 to 1600 years ago.

    The rest still makes sense though. J2b2-L283 is found in all Europe and in India and does have a TMRCA of 4400 years, which is just old enough to have spread with the Indo-Iranian, Armenian, Mycenaean and Illyrian migrations. Besides, J2b2-L283 has never been found in Europe before 1700 BCE, nor any other J2b for that matter. The first J2b2-L283 in the Middle East is from Late Bronze Age Armenia (c. 1100 BCE, just at the time of the arrival of IE Armenian speakers).

    On the other hand there is still very little data from Central Asia. It would be very useful to investigate that region in more detail, with lots of modern and ancient genomes and detailed Y-DNA, especially from places like Uzbekistan and Turkmenistan.
    My book selection---Follow me on Facebook and Twitter --- My profile on Academia.edu and on ResearchGate ----Check Wa-pedia's Japan Guide
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "What is the use of living, if it be not to strive for noble causes and to make this muddled world a better place for those who will live in it after we are gone?", Winston Churchill.

  8. #33
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    8,696
    Points
    697,304
    Level
    100
    Points: 697,304, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 27.0%


    Ethnic group
    Italo-celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    Quote Originally Posted by Leka View Post
    Trojet eloquently addressed your J2b comment, so I couldn't add anything even if I wanted to. However, your Q comments got me curious and did some quick research after I read your opening post ;)

    From what I see, Serbian DNA project has few Q samples from Hvar and Korcula (can't post links) and most seem to fall under L245 (also where the Jewish Q cluster is), one Q-L712 and one Q-L56 (probably both Hunic/Mongol legacy).

    Anyhow I am no expert on Q, but seems like a long shot to me to associate Q with Illyrians/Indo-Europians looking at the evidence above lol

    L245 is a widely Middle Eastern branch, not just a Jewish branch (that would be Y2200). For example the YP1095 branch under L245 is found in Armenia and its subclades are found in places as remote as Switzerland and India. Anyhow, L245 came to the Middle East during the Bronze Age, almost certainly after being assimilated by the Indo-Iranians (and maybe also Proto-Armenians and Proto-Hittites) in Central Asia.

    Q-L56 is not just Mongolian but also includes all the Scandinavian subclades and was found in Mesolithic Latvia (new Mathieson et al. paper) and in the Khvalynsk culture.

    Q-L712 has two clades (L715 and YP1669) which expanded during the Bronze Age (TMRCA of 5000 ybp) and are found from Ireland to Pakistan, but also in Poland, Hungary, Turkey and the North Caucasus. It is surely of Indo-European origin considering that geographic range and time frame.

    I'd say that finding all these potentially PIE clades together in places as remote as Hvar and Korcula is worth investigating.

  9. #34
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    12-10-16
    Posts
    182
    Points
    2,956
    Level
    15
    Points: 2,956, Level: 15
    Level completed: 69%, Points required for next Level: 94
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-BY611

    Country: Albania



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    L245 is a widely Middle Eastern branch, not just a Jewish branch (that would be Y2200). For example the YP1095 branch under L245 is found in Armenia and its subclades are found in places as remote as Switzerland and India. Anyhow, L245 came to the Middle East during the Bronze Age, almost certainly after being assimilated by the Indo-Iranians (and maybe also Proto-Armenians and Proto-Hittites) in Central Asia.

    Q-L56 is not just Mongolian but also includes all the Scandinavian subclades and was found in Mesolithic Latvia (new Mathieson et al. paper) and in the Khvalynsk culture.

    Q-L712 has two clades (L715 and YP1669) which expanded during the Bronze Age (TMRCA of 5000 ybp) and are found from Ireland to Pakistan, but also in Poland, Hungary, Turkey and the North Caucasus. It is surely of Indo-European origin considering that geographic range and time frame.

    I'd say that finding all these potentially PIE clades together in places as remote as Hvar and Korcula is worth investigating.
    Only L245 was found in Hvar and Korcula, have a look at their results, they don't seem to be too distant from the Jewish Cluster - and seems like a founder effect. An odd case for sure. The other two SNPs mentioned are from other regions: one from Bosnia and the other from Serbia.

  10. #35
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    05-02-17
    Location
    sparta
    Posts
    68
    Points
    2,292
    Level
    13
    Points: 2,292, Level: 13
    Level completed: 48%, Points required for next Level: 158
    Overall activity: 0%


    Ethnic group
    dorian
    Country: Greece



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by DuPidh View Post
    The presence of Illyrians in the Balkan is also documented. Homer mentioned the Illyrians in his "Iliad" poem. The "Iliad" is approximately written in 10 century BC . So 300 BC is too low for time Illyrians were present in Balkans. Keep in mind they did not show up the day Homer wrote Iliad
    I have read the entire iliad and odyssey twice and i had never noticed the illirians to be mentioned!I do remember the thracians but not the illirians. But on the other hand it have been over ten years since the last time reading it so maybe i have forgotten or maybe i just did not notice it.
    Can you help me by reminding me?

  11. #36
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Recommendation Second ClassThree FriendsVeteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    17-01-15
    Posts
    322
    Points
    5,693
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,693, Level: 22
    Level completed: 29%, Points required for next Level: 357
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J-L283

    Country: Albania



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    The young age of the Volga-Ural subclades is problematic. Everything seemed to make perfect sense until you pointed that out.
    OK. I am glad you got this straightened out.


    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    The rest still makes sense though. J2b2-L283 is found in all Europe and in India and does have a TMRCA of 4400 years, which is just old enough to have spread with the Indo-Iranian, Armenian, Mycenaean and Illyrian migrations. Besides, J2b2-L283 has never been found in Europe before 1700 BCE, nor any other J2b for that matter.
    I hope you understand that the data you're getting from J-M241 Project at FTDNA is administered by me, so I have much more data than you do regarding this HG. For you to claim that J2b2-L283 is found in all India is wrong. In fact, there is only one person that I know of from India who is L283>>Z628(Z1296-), who ultimately may or may not be of European origin - we don't know since he is the only Z628+ there, while everyone else is under J2b2-Z2432.

    TMRCA of J2b2-L283 is not 4400 ybp. It is 5900 ybp, as you can see here. I will give you a map of all currently known L283+ and Z585- samples, or basal L283. As you can see, they are spread throughout Europe, and none outside of Europe:



    I do agree with you that J2b2-L283 came to Balkans/Europe most likely during the Early Bronze Age from further east, ancient DNA above all is pointing in this direction. However, its expansion ca. 5900 ybp is not as simple as you suggest. And more importantly for you to claim that it's found in all India is obviously wrong.

  12. #37
    Regular Member Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends25000 Experience Points
    Sile's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-09-11
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    5,120
    Points
    29,699
    Level
    52
    Points: 29,699, Level: 52
    Level completed: 96%, Points required for next Level: 51
    Overall activity: 37.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1 ..Pannoni

    Ethnic group
    North Alpine Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by spartan owl View Post
    I have read the entire iliad and odyssey twice and i had never noticed the illirians to be mentioned!I do remember the thracians but not the illirians. But on the other hand it have been over ten years since the last time reading it so maybe i have forgotten or maybe i just did not notice it.
    Can you help me by reminding me?
    I agree with you,

    the illyrians where not known to greeks in the early iron-age or bronze-age.

    plus the Dorians came from these "illyrians" lands into Greece ~1100BC ............so the Greeks knew about the lands of the Dorians but never mentioned illyrians
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

  13. #38
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    17-03-16
    Posts
    526
    Points
    5,076
    Level
    21
    Points: 5,076, Level: 21
    Level completed: 6%, Points required for next Level: 474
    Overall activity: 30.0%


    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    I agree with you,

    the illyrians where not known to greeks in the early iron-age or bronze-age.

    plus the Dorians came from these "illyrians" lands into Greece ~1100BC
    ............so the Greeks knew about the lands of the Dorians but never mentioned illyrians
    This is Not true.

  14. #39
    Regular Member Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends25000 Experience Points
    Sile's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-09-11
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    5,120
    Points
    29,699
    Level
    52
    Points: 29,699, Level: 52
    Level completed: 96%, Points required for next Level: 51
    Overall activity: 37.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1 ..Pannoni

    Ethnic group
    North Alpine Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by A. Papadimitriou View Post
    This is Not true.
    enlighten me then

    The only mention of people of known Illyrian stock by Greeks after the talk about the Dorian , northern invasion of Greece, was the Corinthian victory over the liburbian occupation of Corfu ~700BC...........it clearly states Corinthian victory over liburunians . The Corinthians then occupied and settled corfu and also some coastal mainland next to Corfu.

    the Liburnians are north adriatic "illyrian" tribe.

    My take of the term Illyrian is a geographical term similar to the term British or Iberian ....that is , not a defined people , but a people living in these lands

  15. #40
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second Class1 year registered1000 Experience Points
    rove's Avatar
    Join Date
    15-10-16
    Location
    Aros
    Posts
    12
    Points
    2,246
    Level
    13
    Points: 2,246, Level: 13
    Level completed: 32%, Points required for next Level: 204
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2b2a1a (J-Z631)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5a1b1a

    Ethnic group
    Scandinavian
    Country: Denmark



    Does this explain how J2b2 could end up in Denmark? I have traced my ancestry long way back. All of them from Denmark. 23andme tells my Y-dna haplogroup is J2b2 and my mtDNA haplogroup is U5a1b1. My ancestry composition is pretty much all NW European and high percentage of that scandinavian. I look like typical scandinavian (think Ragnar and Bjørn lothbrok from the show Vikings).

  16. #41
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran
    DuPidh's Avatar
    Join Date
    03-07-15
    Posts
    445


    Country: Cuba



    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    I agree with you,

    the illyrians where not known to greeks in the early iron-age or bronze-age.

    plus the Dorians came from these "illyrians" lands into Greece ~1100BC ............so the Greeks knew about the lands of the Dorians but never mentioned illyrians
    You tend to ignore that nomadic lifestyle was common at that time. Dorians could have just quickly passed through Illyrian lands, pushed by Illyrians, since Illyrians were territorial. Or Dorians were another Illyrian tribe looking for a warm place to settle. Genetics of Dorians in Greece is identical of Tosk Albanians so being an Illyrian tribe is a high possibility. Again Illyrians were known to Greeks. Homer wrote about them about the time you are talking about

  17. #42
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran
    DuPidh's Avatar
    Join Date
    03-07-15
    Posts
    445


    Country: Cuba



    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    enlighten me then

    The only mention of people of known Illyrian stock by Greeks after the talk about the Dorian , northern invasion of Greece, was the Corinthian victory over the liburbian occupation of Corfu ~700BC...........it clearly states Corinthian victory over liburunians . The Corinthians then occupied and settled corfu and also some coastal mainland next to Corfu.

    the Liburnians are north adriatic "illyrian" tribe.

    My take of the term Illyrian is a geographical term similar to the term British or Iberian ....that is , not a defined people , but a people living in these lands
    Geographic names are given from people who inhabit the geography. Illyrian is a word used in everyday Albanian meaning "being free". Since slavery was rampant in ancient Greece, Illyrians were terrified by the scenes where people where chained, beaten, and working for someone else. The geographic name for such a wide territory at that ancient time is hard to have been unified, but what What Illyrians were pointing out was that "they were free", not slaves, like Greek inhabited lands. Foreigners not knowing what "I lire meant" thought the place was called Illyria. I think you live in Australia. Its the same case like word "kangaroo". In aborigine Australian Kangaroo means " I don't understand" but drunk English thought Kangaroo was the name of the animal

  18. #43
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran
    DuPidh's Avatar
    Join Date
    03-07-15
    Posts
    445


    Country: Cuba



    Quote Originally Posted by spartan owl View Post
    I have read the entire iliad and odyssey twice and i had never noticed the illirians to be mentioned!I do remember the thracians but not the illirians. But on the other hand it have been over ten years since the last time reading it so maybe i have forgotten or maybe i just did not notice it.
    Can you help me by reminding me?
    Its mentioned 3 times. I have seen it myself in an English publication

  19. #44
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    17-03-16
    Posts
    526
    Points
    5,076
    Level
    21
    Points: 5,076, Level: 21
    Level completed: 6%, Points required for next Level: 474
    Overall activity: 30.0%


    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by DuPidh View Post
    Its mentioned 3 times. I have seen it myself in an English publication
    I wouldn't bother but I searched the texts and I didn't find anything.

  20. #45
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    17-03-16
    Posts
    526
    Points
    5,076
    Level
    21
    Points: 5,076, Level: 21
    Level completed: 6%, Points required for next Level: 474
    Overall activity: 30.0%


    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by DuPidh View Post
    Geographic names are given from people who inhabit the geography. Illyrian is a word used in everyday Albanian meaning "being free". Since slavery was rampant in ancient Greece, Illyrians were terrified by the scenes where people where chained, beaten, and working for someone else. The geographic name for such a wide territory at that ancient time is hard to have been unified, but what What Illyrians were pointing out was that "they were free", not slaves, like Greek inhabited lands. Foreigners not knowing what "I lire meant" thought the place was called Illyria. I think you live in Australia. Its the same case like word "kangaroo". In aborigine Australian Kangaroo means " I don't understand" but drunk English thought Kangaroo was the name of the animal
    That is a pseudoetymology. I can propose one too without trying much, for example that the word was cognate with Old Norse 'illr' (=evil, bad) and it meant 'fierce'.

  21. #46
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran
    DuPidh's Avatar
    Join Date
    03-07-15
    Posts
    445


    Country: Cuba



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by A. Papadimitriou View Post
    That is a pseudoetymology. I can propose one too without trying much, for example that the word was cognate with Old Norse 'illr' (=evil, bad) and it meant 'fierce'.
    You know Ancient Greece! Not everyone was identifying as Hellen. They were Identifying by the region like Macedon, Trinacria, etc.. There was not the notion of nation like it is today. A Macedonian did not feel Helen even if the spoke the same language. It can't be said that Illyrians of antiquity were unified by language so they could see each other as one. So the only thing that realy united them was freedom which they expressed to the foreigners.

  22. #47
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    8,696
    Points
    697,304
    Level
    100
    Points: 697,304, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 27.0%


    Ethnic group
    Italo-celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    For you to claim that J2b2-L283 is found in all India is wrong. In fact, there is only one person that I know of from India who is L283>>Z628(Z1296-), who ultimately may or may not be of European origin - we don't know since he is the only Z628+ there, while everyone else is under J2b2-Z2432.

    I never said it was found all over India. Just that it was found in India. Anyway, the India Pakistan Nepal Project at FTDNA has only 744 members for a region that has 1.2 billion inhabitants. It's hardly representative. Unfortunately I don't know of any paper that tested J2b2 subclades. The largest paper on Indian Y-DNA is Sengupta et al. (2006). They found 53 J2b2 samples out of 1089 individuals, and Singh et al. (2016), who found 74 J2b men out of 162 Indian J2 samples (see sup. table 3). That is far more than the 12 Indian people at the FTDNA J2b Project. I doubt the subclade can be determined from the few STR available, but perhaps you could look into it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    TMRCA of J2b2-L283 is not 4400 ybp. It is 5900 ybp, as you can see here. I will give you a map of all currently known L283+ and Z585- samples, or basal L283. As you can see, they are spread throughout Europe, and none outside of Europe:
    Sorry, I meant to say that Z628 (aka Z597) has a TMRCA of 4400 years. It is the branch that we were discussing, which is found in India and the Middle East (but also in many parts of Europe like the Balkans, Italy, Germany, Scandinavia and Portugal). I have a particularly busy day yesterday and replied in a hurry between two meetings.

  23. #48
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Recommendation Second ClassThree FriendsVeteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    17-01-15
    Posts
    322
    Points
    5,693
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,693, Level: 22
    Level completed: 29%, Points required for next Level: 357
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J-L283

    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I never said it was found all over India. Just that it was found in India. Anyway, the India Pakistan Nepal Project at FTDNA has only 744 members for a region that has 1.2 billion inhabitants. It's hardly representative. Unfortunately I don't know of any paper that tested J2b2 subclades. The largest paper on Indian Y-DNA is Sengupta et al. (2006). They found 53 J2b2 samples out of 1089 individuals, and Singh et al. (2016), who found 74 J2b men out of 162 Indian J2 samples (see sup. table 3). That is far more than the 12 Indian people at the FTDNA J2b Project. I doubt the subclade can be determined from the few STR available, but perhaps you could look into it?
    While I can't say with a 100% certainty due to a limited amount of markers tested, all of J2b2's from both papers appear to be under the typical South Asian branch, J2b2-Z2432 aka Z2444.

    Furthermore, at J-M241 Project at FTDNA, out of about 25 South Asian J2b2's, all but one are under the South Asian branch, J2b2-Z2432,Z2444. So no, there is no evidence that J2b2-L283 has a presence in India, unless you're basing this on only one example, but then we also have one predicted J2b2-Z2432 in Europe (Germany).

  24. #49
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran5000 Experience Points
    LABERIA's Avatar
    Join Date
    05-09-15
    Posts
    2,058
    Points
    5,204
    Level
    21
    Points: 5,204, Level: 21
    Level completed: 31%, Points required for next Level: 346
    Overall activity: 0%


    Ethnic group
    Albanian
    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by DuPidh View Post
    You know Ancient Greece! Not everyone was identifying as Hellen. They were Identifying by the region like Macedon, Trinacria, etc.. There was not the notion of nation like it is today. A Macedonian did not feel Helen even if the spoke the same language. It can't be said that Illyrians of antiquity were unified by language so they could see each other as one. So the only thing that realy united them was freedom which they expressed to the foreigners.
    No, you are wrong with this theory of freedom. For the ancient greeks the world was divided in greeks and barbarians. Someone from Sparta considered someone from Athens as people of the same "nation".
    17 Dec.
    Paget to the Council.
    Now the Council's letters seem to imply (words quoted) that the King will keep no strangers save the Albanoys.
    Cales, 17 Dec. 1545. Signed.
    O me zhabat në moçale, o me zhgabat lart në male!
    -Petro Nini Luarasi-

  25. #50
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    05-02-17
    Location
    sparta
    Posts
    68
    Points
    2,292
    Level
    13
    Points: 2,292, Level: 13
    Level completed: 48%, Points required for next Level: 158
    Overall activity: 0%


    Ethnic group
    dorian
    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by DuPidh View Post
    Its mentioned 3 times. I have seen it myself in an English publication
    i do not say that it is not maybe it is ,but do you remember where?

Page 2 of 8 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •