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Ignorant (non-offensive) members (like myself) should do more reading than posting, unless you're genuinely trying to learn through questions after failing to get your answers from researching them on your own.Originally Posted by Apsurdistan
Since you're a Bosniak, how do say 'sit' in your mother tongue? Just from my knowledge I know sit (Eng), siediti (Italian), sentarse (Spanish). Similarly, how do you say "give me"? In Italian its dammi by the way. U see the similarities? If that tells u nothing then find urself another hobby. Note how I didn't choose a word like 'wheel' that has a higher chance to be borrowed.
With regards to the article, very interesting.
@Maciamo
Are u basing your theory that J2b came from the Steppe due to its 1/3 Steppe admixture alone?
It could still be pre-IE in the Balkans.
Imo, that's what you did with the blonde R1b Indoeuropeans, the R1b Dorians and the R1a Myceneans.
Btw, Goga is 'R1a*'
Of course there's gonna be a little similarity like 1-5% which is still very small, too small to put into a same language family. And considering the proximity and longevity of these populations co-existing extremely small. Comparing South Slavic to Romance, Albanian, Greek, German. We call Germans Njemci which literally means mutes-can't speak.
it makes sense
all J were herders
Thank you! Perhaps he will pay attention to your post, as I've already tried to explain to him a few times the situation with the Volga/Ural J2b2.The current J2b in Tatars and Chuvashs is a young clade with older cousin clades in the Balkans and central Europe J-Y12000, so it got there from the Balkans. Goths maybe, or Huns, I don't know, but someone in the early middle ages moved it there, that could actually be the pattern with other Balkan haplogroups as well, found in volga urals or deep beyond in the steppe, I can think of E-V13, I1 and some Balkan R1b-CTS9219, moved to the steppes from the Balkans, not the other way around.
However, that doesn't mean J2b2a1-L283 or a deeper subclade can't be Indo-European, ancient dna has been found that may support that, I have my doubts but still, extremely low frequency in Crete and western Anatolia doesn't suggest they took that migration route, like the Minoans I used to think Balkan J2b must have come from the same source, Kura-Araxes ? I don't know if Archaeology supports that, I'm giving that culture too much power
I would refer to Trojet's post above, he said it better than me.
Y-DNA: J-L283
Maternal Y-DNA: E-V13
Trojet eloquently addressed your J2b comment, so I couldn't add anything even if I wanted to. However, your Q comments got me curious and did some quick research after I read your opening post ;)
From what I see, Serbian DNA project has few Q samples from Hvar and Korcula (can't post links) and most seem to fall under L245 (also where the Jewish Q cluster is), one Q-L712 and one Q-L56 (probably both Hunic/Mongol legacy).
Anyhow I am no expert on Q, but seems like a long shot to me to associate Q with Illyrians/Indo-Europians looking at the evidence above lol
The young age of the Volga-Ural subclades is problematic. Everything seemed to make perfect sense until you pointed that out. J2b1, J2b2-L283 and R1b-Z2103 are all found among the Mordovians in the Middle Volga region at frequencies similar to those observed in Greece. The Mordovians, Greeks and people in the Dinaric Alps also possess a fair amount of R1a-CTS1211, which we could have presumed to have come in part from the Illyrians and Mycenaeans (although the biggest part is thought to have come with the Slavic migrations). We had a cluster of four haplogroups that aren't normally found together elsewhere except in the Balkans and among the Mordovians. That was too good to be true. I couldn't checked the age of R1b-Z2103 and R1a-CTS1211 in each region because there is too little data. But as far as J2b2-L283 in concerned, there seems indeed to have been a migration from the Balkans to the Volga-Ural during the Middle Ages, about 1000 to 1600 years ago.The current J2b in Tatars and Chuvashs is a young clade with older cousin clades in the Balkans and central Europe J-Y12000, so it got there from the Balkans. Goths maybe, or Huns, I don't know, but someone in the early middle ages moved it there, that could actually be the pattern with other Balkan haplogroups as well, found in volga urals or deep beyond in the steppe, I can think of E-V13, I1 and some Balkan R1b-CTS9219, moved to the steppes from the Balkans, not the other way around.
However, that doesn't mean J2b2a1-L283 or a deeper subclade can't be Indo-European, ancient dna has been found that may support that, I have my doubts but still, extremely low frequency in Crete and western Anatolia doesn't suggest they took that migration route, like the Minoans I used to think Balkan J2b must have come from the same source, Kura-Araxes ? I don't know if Archaeology supports that, I'm giving that culture too much power
I would refer to Trojet's post above, he said it better than me.
The rest still makes sense though. J2b2-L283 is found in all Europe and in India and does have a TMRCA of 4400 years, which is just old enough to have spread with the Indo-Iranian, Armenian, Mycenaean and Illyrian migrations. Besides, J2b2-L283 has never been found in Europe before 1700 BCE, nor any other J2b for that matter. The first J2b2-L283 in the Middle East is from Late Bronze Age Armenia (c. 1100 BCE, just at the time of the arrival of IE Armenian speakers).
On the other hand there is still very little data from Central Asia. It would be very useful to investigate that region in more detail, with lots of modern and ancient genomes and detailed Y-DNA, especially from places like Uzbekistan and Turkmenistan.
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L245 is a widely Middle Eastern branch, not just a Jewish branch (that would be Y2200). For example the YP1095 branch under L245 is found in Armenia and its subclades are found in places as remote as Switzerland and India. Anyhow, L245 came to the Middle East during the Bronze Age, almost certainly after being assimilated by the Indo-Iranians (and maybe also Proto-Armenians and Proto-Hittites) in Central Asia.
Q-L56 is not just Mongolian but also includes all the Scandinavian subclades and was found in Mesolithic Latvia (new Mathieson et al. paper) and in the Khvalynsk culture.
Q-L712 has two clades (L715 and YP1669) which expanded during the Bronze Age (TMRCA of 5000 ybp) and are found from Ireland to Pakistan, but also in Poland, Hungary, Turkey and the North Caucasus. It is surely of Indo-European origin considering that geographic range and time frame.
I'd say that finding all these potentially PIE clades together in places as remote as Hvar and Korcula is worth investigating.
Only L245 was found in Hvar and Korcula, have a look at their results, they don't seem to be too distant from the Jewish Cluster - and seems like a founder effect. An odd case for sure. The other two SNPs mentioned are from other regions: one from Bosnia and the other from Serbia.
I have read the entire iliad and odyssey twice and i had never noticed the illirians to be mentioned!I do remember the thracians but not the illirians. But on the other hand it have been over ten years since the last time reading it so maybe i have forgotten or maybe i just did not notice it.
Can you help me by reminding me?
OK. I am glad you got this straightened out.
I hope you understand that the data you're getting from J-M241 Project at FTDNA is administered by me, so I have much more data than you do regarding this HG. For you to claim that J2b2-L283 is found in all India is wrong. In fact, there is only one person that I know of from India who is L283>>Z628(Z1296-), who ultimately may or may not be of European origin - we don't know since he is the only Z628+ there, while everyone else is under J2b2-Z2432.
TMRCA of J2b2-L283 is not 4400 ybp. It is 5900 ybp, as you can see here. I will give you a map of all currently known L283+ and Z585- samples, or basal L283. As you can see, they are spread throughout Europe, and none outside of Europe:
I do agree with you that J2b2-L283 came to Balkans/Europe most likely during the Early Bronze Age from further east, ancient DNA above all is pointing in this direction. However, its expansion ca. 5900 ybp is not as simple as you suggest. And more importantly for you to claim that it's found in all India is obviously wrong.
I agree with you,
the illyrians where not known to greeks in the early iron-age or bronze-age.
plus the Dorians came from these "illyrians" lands into Greece ~1100BC ............so the Greeks knew about the lands of the Dorians but never mentioned illyrians
có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo
when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.
This is Not true.
enlighten me then
The only mention of people of known Illyrian stock by Greeks after the talk about the Dorian , northern invasion of Greece, was the Corinthian victory over the liburbian occupation of Corfu ~700BC...........it clearly states Corinthian victory over liburunians . The Corinthians then occupied and settled corfu and also some coastal mainland next to Corfu.
the Liburnians are north adriatic "illyrian" tribe.
My take of the term Illyrian is a geographical term similar to the term British or Iberian ....that is , not a defined people , but a people living in these lands
Does this explain how J2b2 could end up in Denmark? I have traced my ancestry long way back. All of them from Denmark. 23andme tells my Y-dna haplogroup is J2b2 and my mtDNA haplogroup is U5a1b1. My ancestry composition is pretty much all NW European and high percentage of that scandinavian. I look like typical scandinavian (think Ragnar and Bjørn lothbrok from the show Vikings).
You tend to ignore that nomadic lifestyle was common at that time. Dorians could have just quickly passed through Illyrian lands, pushed by Illyrians, since Illyrians were territorial. Or Dorians were another Illyrian tribe looking for a warm place to settle. Genetics of Dorians in Greece is identical of Tosk Albanians so being an Illyrian tribe is a high possibility. Again Illyrians were known to Greeks. Homer wrote about them about the time you are talking about
Geographic names are given from people who inhabit the geography. Illyrian is a word used in everyday Albanian meaning "being free". Since slavery was rampant in ancient Greece, Illyrians were terrified by the scenes where people where chained, beaten, and working for someone else. The geographic name for such a wide territory at that ancient time is hard to have been unified, but what What Illyrians were pointing out was that "they were free", not slaves, like Greek inhabited lands. Foreigners not knowing what "I lire meant" thought the place was called Illyria. I think you live in Australia. Its the same case like word "kangaroo". In aborigine Australian Kangaroo means " I don't understand" but drunk English thought Kangaroo was the name of the animal
Its mentioned 3 times. I have seen it myself in an English publication
I wouldn't bother but I searched the texts and I didn't find anything.
That is a pseudoetymology. I can propose one too without trying much, for example that the word was cognate with Old Norse 'illr' (=evil, bad) and it meant 'fierce'.
You know Ancient Greece! Not everyone was identifying as Hellen. They were Identifying by the region like Macedon, Trinacria, etc.. There was not the notion of nation like it is today. A Macedonian did not feel Helen even if the spoke the same language. It can't be said that Illyrians of antiquity were unified by language so they could see each other as one. So the only thing that realy united them was freedom which they expressed to the foreigners.
I never said it was found all over India. Just that it was found in India. Anyway, the India Pakistan Nepal Project at FTDNA has only 744 members for a region that has 1.2 billion inhabitants. It's hardly representative. Unfortunately I don't know of any paper that tested J2b2 subclades. The largest paper on Indian Y-DNA is Sengupta et al. (2006). They found 53 J2b2 samples out of 1089 individuals, and Singh et al. (2016), who found 74 J2b men out of 162 Indian J2 samples (see sup. table 3). That is far more than the 12 Indian people at the FTDNA J2b Project. I doubt the subclade can be determined from the few STR available, but perhaps you could look into it?
Sorry, I meant to say that Z628 (aka Z597) has a TMRCA of 4400 years. It is the branch that we were discussing, which is found in India and the Middle East (but also in many parts of Europe like the Balkans, Italy, Germany, Scandinavia and Portugal). I have a particularly busy day yesterday and replied in a hurry between two meetings.
While I can't say with a 100% certainty due to a limited amount of markers tested, all of J2b2's from both papers appear to be under the typical South Asian branch, J2b2-Z2432 aka Z2444.
Furthermore, at J-M241 Project at FTDNA, out of about 25 South Asian J2b2's, all but one are under the South Asian branch, J2b2-Z2432,Z2444. So no, there is no evidence that J2b2-L283 has a presence in India, unless you're basing this on only one example, but then we also have one predicted J2b2-Z2432 in Europe (Germany).
No, you are wrong with this theory of freedom. For the ancient greeks the world was divided in greeks and barbarians. Someone from Sparta considered someone from Athens as people of the same "nation".
i do not say that it is not maybe it is ,but do you remember where?
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