J2b as an IE lineages of the ancient Illyrians & Mycenaeans

If you don't know anything about genetics or linguistics or pre-history, and have no interest whatsoever in learning about them, why the heck are you reading and commenting on the threads? It's as useless to you as it is to us.

If you find it useless, ignore it.
 
I'm glad someone else doesn't require Hittites in Anatolia by 4000BC

There was always waves coming out of the steppe, so this model is very fitting. Anatolians may have been driven by Greeks who may have been driven by Iranians or something like that. Probably not so simple, but for West Asia Hittites are newcomers on the historical record, among very sophisticated civilizations that kept track of Anatolia. And Greeks are even later.
Genetically, we also see a big wave coming to Balkans from CA/BA Anatolia and Armenia, bringing a lot of Caucasian admixture. It should mean something, like appearance of some BA tribes in Balkans. Who were day? I think, these were the Greek tribes, later pushed into Greece by Late BA and IA wave of new arrivals from North, like Thracians and alike.
 
One question would be how did that J2b lineage get to the Volga?

I have explained that on the J2 page. J2b was found in Neolithic Iran. It just needed to migrate north along the Caspian Sea, either through the Caucasus or through Central Asia, and voilà!

Didn't Dienekes claim at one point that J2b was the marker of Indo- Europeans? Maybe he thought they brought CHG like ancestry to Europe? Maybe I'm misremembering.

I think he was originally claiming (like Goga) that J2a was the original IE haplogroup (probably for personal reasons) as he favoured the Anatolian origin hypothesis (also for personal reason since his family is from the Pontus region of Anatolia).
 
The presence of Illyrians in the Balkan is also documented. Homer mentioned the Illyrians in his "Iliad" poem. The "Iliad" is approximately written in 10 century BC . So 300 BC is too low for time Illyrians were present in Balkans. Keep in mind they did not show up the day Homer wrote Iliad

The Iliad is an epic poem, composed around 800-725 B.C. and written down sometime between 725 and 675 B.C.

that's 1185BC to when it occurred, to when it is written , say 450 to 500 years after
 
The current J2b in Tatars and Chuvashs is a young clade with older cousin clades in the Balkans and central Europe J-Y12000, so it got there from the Balkans. Goths maybe, or Huns, I don't know, but someone in the early middle ages moved it there, that could actually be the pattern with other Balkan haplogroups as well, found in volga urals or deep beyond in the steppe, I can think of E-V13, I1 and some Balkan R1b-CTS9219, moved to the steppes from the Balkans, not the other way around.

However, that doesn't mean J2b2a1-L283 or a deeper subclade can't be Indo-European, ancient dna has been found that may support that, I have my doubts but still, extremely low frequency in Crete and western Anatolia doesn't suggest they took that migration route, like the Minoans I used to think Balkan J2b must have come from the same source, Kura-Araxes ? I don't know if Archaeology supports that, I'm giving that culture too much power :embarassed:

I would refer to Trojet's post above, he said it better than me.
 
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Cuz it's on wikipedia and some academia people talk about it then it must be solid truth that shouldn't ever be questioned. Don't care if magnets spoke indo-european, I don't wanna google it, it's stupid and fanatical and exaggerated. And most people don't know what it is nor do they care or make anything out of it cuz it's a fringe meaningless subject.
Ignorant (non-offensive) members (like myself) should do more reading than posting, unless you're genuinely trying to learn through questions after failing to get your answers from researching them on your own.

Since you're a Bosniak, how do say 'sit' in your mother tongue? Just from my knowledge I know sit (Eng), siediti (Italian), sentarse (Spanish). Similarly, how do you say "give me"? In Italian its dammi by the way. U see the similarities? If that tells u nothing then find urself another hobby. Note how I didn't choose a word like 'wheel' that has a higher chance to be borrowed.

With regards to the article, very interesting.

@Maciamo
Are u basing your theory that J2b came from the Steppe due to its 1/3 Steppe admixture alone?

It could still be pre-IE in the Balkans.
 
I have explained that on the J2 page. J2b was found in Neolithic Iran. It just needed to migrate north along the Caspian Sea, either through the Caucasus or through Central Asia, and voilà!



I think he was originally claiming (like Goga) that J2a was the original IE haplogroup (probably for personal reasons) as he favoured the Anatolian origin hypothesis (also for personal reason since his family is from the Pontus region of Anatolia).
Imo, that's what you did with the blonde R1b Indoeuropeans, the R1b Dorians and the R1a Myceneans.
Btw, Goga is 'R1a*'
 
Of course there's gonna be a little similarity like 1-5% which is still very small, too small to put into a same language family. And considering the proximity and longevity of these populations co-existing extremely small. Comparing South Slavic to Romance, Albanian, Greek, German. We call Germans Njemci which literally means mutes-can't speak.
 
One question would be how did that J2b lineage get to the Volga?

Didn't Dienekes claim at one point that J2b was the marker of Indo- Europeans? Maybe he thought they brought CHG like ancestry to Europe? Maybe I'm misremembering.

it makes sense
all J were herders
 
The current J2b in Tatars and Chuvashs is a young clade with older cousin clades in the Balkans and central Europe J-Y12000, so it got there from the Balkans. Goths maybe, or Huns, I don't know, but someone in the early middle ages moved it there, that could actually be the pattern with other Balkan haplogroups as well, found in volga urals or deep beyond in the steppe, I can think of E-V13, I1 and some Balkan R1b-CTS9219, moved to the steppes from the Balkans, not the other way around.

However, that doesn't mean J2b2a1-L283 or a deeper subclade can't be Indo-European, ancient dna has been found that may support that, I have my doubts but still, extremely low frequency in Crete and western Anatolia doesn't suggest they took that migration route, like the Minoans I used to think Balkan J2b must have come from the same source, Kura-Araxes ? I don't know if Archaeology supports that, I'm giving that culture too much power :embarassed:

I would refer to Trojet's post above, he said it better than me.

Thank you! Perhaps he will pay attention to your post, as I've already tried to explain to him a few times the situation with the Volga/Ural J2b2.
 
Trojet eloquently addressed your J2b comment, so I couldn't add anything even if I wanted to. However, your Q comments got me curious and did some quick research after I read your opening post ;)

From what I see, Serbian DNA project has few Q samples from Hvar and Korcula (can't post links) and most seem to fall under L245 (also where the Jewish Q cluster is), one Q-L712 and one Q-L56 (probably both Hunic/Mongol legacy).

Anyhow I am no expert on Q, but seems like a long shot to me to associate Q with Illyrians/Indo-Europians looking at the evidence above lol
 
The current J2b in Tatars and Chuvashs is a young clade with older cousin clades in the Balkans and central Europe J-Y12000, so it got there from the Balkans. Goths maybe, or Huns, I don't know, but someone in the early middle ages moved it there, that could actually be the pattern with other Balkan haplogroups as well, found in volga urals or deep beyond in the steppe, I can think of E-V13, I1 and some Balkan R1b-CTS9219, moved to the steppes from the Balkans, not the other way around.

However, that doesn't mean J2b2a1-L283 or a deeper subclade can't be Indo-European, ancient dna has been found that may support that, I have my doubts but still, extremely low frequency in Crete and western Anatolia doesn't suggest they took that migration route, like the Minoans I used to think Balkan J2b must have come from the same source, Kura-Araxes ? I don't know if Archaeology supports that, I'm giving that culture too much power :embarassed:

I would refer to Trojet's post above, he said it better than me.

The young age of the Volga-Ural subclades is problematic. Everything seemed to make perfect sense until you pointed that out. J2b1, J2b2-L283 and R1b-Z2103 are all found among the Mordovians in the Middle Volga region at frequencies similar to those observed in Greece. The Mordovians, Greeks and people in the Dinaric Alps also possess a fair amount of R1a-CTS1211, which we could have presumed to have come in part from the Illyrians and Mycenaeans (although the biggest part is thought to have come with the Slavic migrations). We had a cluster of four haplogroups that aren't normally found together elsewhere except in the Balkans and among the Mordovians. That was too good to be true. I couldn't checked the age of R1b-Z2103 and R1a-CTS1211 in each region because there is too little data. But as far as J2b2-L283 in concerned, there seems indeed to have been a migration from the Balkans to the Volga-Ural during the Middle Ages, about 1000 to 1600 years ago.

The rest still makes sense though. J2b2-L283 is found in all Europe and in India and does have a TMRCA of 4400 years, which is just old enough to have spread with the Indo-Iranian, Armenian, Mycenaean and Illyrian migrations. Besides, J2b2-L283 has never been found in Europe before 1700 BCE, nor any other J2b for that matter. The first J2b2-L283 in the Middle East is from Late Bronze Age Armenia (c. 1100 BCE, just at the time of the arrival of IE Armenian speakers).

On the other hand there is still very little data from Central Asia. It would be very useful to investigate that region in more detail, with lots of modern and ancient genomes and detailed Y-DNA, especially from places like Uzbekistan and Turkmenistan.
 
Trojet eloquently addressed your J2b comment, so I couldn't add anything even if I wanted to. However, your Q comments got me curious and did some quick research after I read your opening post ;)

From what I see, Serbian DNA project has few Q samples from Hvar and Korcula (can't post links) and most seem to fall under L245 (also where the Jewish Q cluster is), one Q-L712 and one Q-L56 (probably both Hunic/Mongol legacy).

Anyhow I am no expert on Q, but seems like a long shot to me to associate Q with Illyrians/Indo-Europians looking at the evidence above lol


L245 is a widely Middle Eastern branch, not just a Jewish branch (that would be Y2200). For example the YP1095 branch under L245 is found in Armenia and its subclades are found in places as remote as Switzerland and India. Anyhow, L245 came to the Middle East during the Bronze Age, almost certainly after being assimilated by the Indo-Iranians (and maybe also Proto-Armenians and Proto-Hittites) in Central Asia.

Q-L56 is not just Mongolian but also includes all the Scandinavian subclades and was found in Mesolithic Latvia (new Mathieson et al. paper) and in the Khvalynsk culture.

Q-L712 has two clades (L715 and YP1669) which expanded during the Bronze Age (TMRCA of 5000 ybp) and are found from Ireland to Pakistan, but also in Poland, Hungary, Turkey and the North Caucasus. It is surely of Indo-European origin considering that geographic range and time frame.

I'd say that finding all these potentially PIE clades together in places as remote as Hvar and Korcula is worth investigating.
 
L245 is a widely Middle Eastern branch, not just a Jewish branch (that would be Y2200). For example the YP1095 branch under L245 is found in Armenia and its subclades are found in places as remote as Switzerland and India. Anyhow, L245 came to the Middle East during the Bronze Age, almost certainly after being assimilated by the Indo-Iranians (and maybe also Proto-Armenians and Proto-Hittites) in Central Asia.

Q-L56 is not just Mongolian but also includes all the Scandinavian subclades and was found in Mesolithic Latvia (new Mathieson et al. paper) and in the Khvalynsk culture.

Q-L712 has two clades (L715 and YP1669) which expanded during the Bronze Age (TMRCA of 5000 ybp) and are found from Ireland to Pakistan, but also in Poland, Hungary, Turkey and the North Caucasus. It is surely of Indo-European origin considering that geographic range and time frame.

I'd say that finding all these potentially PIE clades together in places as remote as Hvar and Korcula is worth investigating.

Only L245 was found in Hvar and Korcula, have a look at their results, they don't seem to be too distant from the Jewish Cluster - and seems like a founder effect. An odd case for sure. The other two SNPs mentioned are from other regions: one from Bosnia and the other from Serbia.
 
The presence of Illyrians in the Balkan is also documented. Homer mentioned the Illyrians in his "Iliad" poem. The "Iliad" is approximately written in 10 century BC . So 300 BC is too low for time Illyrians were present in Balkans. Keep in mind they did not show up the day Homer wrote Iliad
I have read the entire iliad and odyssey twice and i had never noticed the illirians to be mentioned!I do remember the thracians but not the illirians. But on the other hand it have been over ten years since the last time reading it so maybe i have forgotten or maybe i just did not notice it.
Can you help me by reminding me?
 
The young age of the Volga-Ural subclades is problematic. Everything seemed to make perfect sense until you pointed that out.

OK. I am glad you got this straightened out.


The rest still makes sense though. J2b2-L283 is found in all Europe and in India and does have a TMRCA of 4400 years, which is just old enough to have spread with the Indo-Iranian, Armenian, Mycenaean and Illyrian migrations. Besides, J2b2-L283 has never been found in Europe before 1700 BCE, nor any other J2b for that matter.

I hope you understand that the data you're getting from J-M241 Project at FTDNA is administered by me, so I have much more data than you do regarding this HG. For you to claim that J2b2-L283 is found in all India is wrong. In fact, there is only one person that I know of from India who is L283>>Z628(Z1296-), who ultimately may or may not be of European origin - we don't know since he is the only Z628+ there, while everyone else is under J2b2-Z2432.

TMRCA of J2b2-L283 is not 4400 ybp. It is 5900 ybp, as you can see here. I will give you a map of all currently known L283+ and Z585- samples, or basal L283. As you can see, they are spread throughout Europe, and none outside of Europe:

2qvqhas.jpg


I do agree with you that J2b2-L283 came to Balkans/Europe most likely during the Early Bronze Age from further east, ancient DNA above all is pointing in this direction. However, its expansion ca. 5900 ybp is not as simple as you suggest. And more importantly for you to claim that it's found in all India is obviously wrong.
 
I have read the entire iliad and odyssey twice and i had never noticed the illirians to be mentioned!I do remember the thracians but not the illirians. But on the other hand it have been over ten years since the last time reading it so maybe i have forgotten or maybe i just did not notice it.
Can you help me by reminding me?

I agree with you,

the illyrians where not known to greeks in the early iron-age or bronze-age.

plus the Dorians came from these "illyrians" lands into Greece ~1100BC ............so the Greeks knew about the lands of the Dorians but never mentioned illyrians
 
I agree with you,

the illyrians where not known to greeks in the early iron-age or bronze-age.

plus the Dorians came from these "illyrians" lands into Greece ~1100BC
............so the Greeks knew about the lands of the Dorians but never mentioned illyrians
This is Not true.
 
This is Not true.

enlighten me then

The only mention of people of known Illyrian stock by Greeks after the talk about the Dorian , northern invasion of Greece, was the Corinthian victory over the liburbian occupation of Corfu ~700BC...........it clearly states Corinthian victory over liburunians . The Corinthians then occupied and settled corfu and also some coastal mainland next to Corfu.

the Liburnians are north adriatic "illyrian" tribe.

My take of the term Illyrian is a geographical term similar to the term British or Iberian ....that is , not a defined people , but a people living in these lands
 
Does this explain how J2b2 could end up in Denmark? I have traced my ancestry long way back. All of them from Denmark. 23andme tells my Y-dna haplogroup is J2b2 and my mtDNA haplogroup is U5a1b1. My ancestry composition is pretty much all NW European and high percentage of that scandinavian. I look like typical scandinavian (think Ragnar and Bjørn lothbrok from the show Vikings).
 

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