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Thread: J2b as an IE lineages of the ancient Illyrians & Mycenaeans

  1. #51
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    Fwiw, the link below is to an on-line Iliad with a search engine. Neither Illyrians nor Illyrian produced results.

    http://www.online-literature.com/homer/iliad/


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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    Quote Originally Posted by DuPidh View Post
    The presence of Illyrians in the Balkan is also documented. Homer mentioned the Illyrians in his "Iliad" poem. The "Iliad" is approximately written in 10 century BC . So 300 BC is too low for time Illyrians were present in Balkans. Keep in mind they did not show up the day Homer wrote Iliad

    can you give a Link of Ilias?
    or at least the place where is mentioned?
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

    When there is no shame
    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

    Εχε υπομονη Ηρωα
    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Apsurdistan View Post
    I never understood what this "indo-european" thing is or why it's so important. And I don't understand the "indo-european" language family how is it similar at all? European languages themselves are so vastly different despite the fact the populations are admixed genetically, culturally and live in such close proximity. BARELY any similarities, basically none. There's germanic, Latino, and Slavic languages and that's enough label for it. Don't understand the need to put them all under some umbrella. I think it's digging too deep. You go deep enough there's some connections with every human being on this planet, but very minor things are very unimportant. There are more Turkic words in Bosnian, I'm sure more than Indian words so technically it makes more sense to call Bosnian Turco-European. Can't speak for other languages but I think Bulgarian, Russian and Hungarian are probably more similar to Turkic than any kind of Indian or even some modern European languages.
    Your good sense is maybe too superficial? - You ought to read more about paleo-linguistic.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    (prologue)
    I would like to inform myself from the genetics data which kindly shared from respectable forum members, but it seems impossible with all that noise to ever end in safe conclusions.


    I suppose we all are history enthusiasts, of course we have different interpretations up on the same facts. It is also nice to share with other people our theories, ideas, our questions etc., but there no reason to insist to convice people for things which are not in deep knowledge of the subject. Anyway...


    (to the soup)
    I stick for a while for the Illyrians as mentioned. Because I really get sick...


    There are no Illyrians at Homer.
    At rapsody β΄ they well mentioned all the allies of the Trojans which they dont share the same language, and all them in contrast with the Achaeans and Danaaens and... Trojans, which they do! -at least according to Homer.

    The Trojan alllies from Europe and Asia are: Dardanians, Thracians (Cikones), Paeonians and Phrygians, Lycians, Maeonians,(later Lydians) Carians, Leleges, Paflagones, Alizones and as mentioned to Odyssey, Ethiopians also.


    Maybe; @Dupidh in some extend wish to say that Trojans related with Dardanos ?
    Dardanos/Δαρδάνος >>his son: Erichthonios/Εριχθόνιος
    from Erichthonios/Εριχθόνιος>> his son Troos/Τρώος
    from Troos/Τρώος >> his sons: Ilos( Ilion-the region. Iliad-the epic poem), Ganemedes and Assarakos.
    from Ilos/Ίλος his sons: >> Priam (the king), Laomedon.
    So in some extend Iloos/Ίλος related with Illyrians? (- I dont think so.)


    Also at that point it is good to know that at Homer's time, {-and Hesiod-} there is Hellas, as described from texts a small territory and not the today Hellas/Greece, but the Phtia/Φθία (Central Greece- Thessaly{ Pindus & Parnassus & plains of Beoetia according to Hesiod} the region of Myrmidons and Epirus the region of Dolopes/Δόλοπες of Achellous {region of Athamas the mythical king of story of the "golden fleece} which from the Dodonae till river Achellous is the core place of the people called Greeks/Γραικοί {according to Aristotle centuries later} the people that consists as the bone structure of the Κοινὸν Ἀπειρωτᾶν, Koinòn Āpeirōtân; Epirotan League {Epirus} which they get attacked from Illyrians at 3rd cent;)
    The great fun is that some peopple do not consider the Epirotans as Greeks. (!)
    Get dizzy? -Anyway
    the intriguing part is that Hellas (of antiguity) is the place of Achilleus... (Wish not to extend and engage Pelasgians to the disscusion, because as you allready realise that Greeks{Achaeans, and Dannaans for Homer} maybe are the Pelasgians as the Trojans allies also;) ...but I will keep that clue for another thread. -End of soup.



    (to the beef)
    The thread is about some indications for the moves of the antiguity populations of the Balkanic penninsula & Greece -if I get it well, but...
    Why all the above could bother us? -Because according to the texts( Homer) -at least for the case of Myceneans and the opponents of them Trojans-, all the indications show us that the Trojans related with the Greeks with common language; at least they worship the same gods, -which illyrians dont-, the kings are from Zeus- Διογέννητοι, they have a temple of Athena etc.etc. The most interesting for me is that clearly shows that Trojans have - trying to be "abstract and general"- a balkanian origin from Dardanus, while Myceneans an Anatolian one.
    The sons of Atreas >> Agamemnon, Menelaus, as they descented from Pelops which was Phrygian and ultimately in depth of time also of balkanian origin..;

    (the dessert)
    I would not rely on that for a safe conclusion from the texts, the sure -at least for me, without deep knowledge of genetics- ,is that Balkan/Anatolia works like an Hourglass or else Water clock to say, from deep prehistory even at medieval ages the roman emperors moved populations massively ( I refer in contrast the medieval times, as we consider and realise that the things are more stucked for the people to move independently compared to earlier ages...)


    So from that point I am interested and await for the perspective of genetics science to enlightened us .




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    2 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by ΠΑΝΑΞ View Post
    (prologue)
    I would like to inform myself from the genetics data which kindly shared from respectable forum members, but it seems impossible with all that noise to ever end in safe conclusions.


    I suppose we all are history enthusiasts, of course we have different interpretations up on the same facts. It is also nice to share with other people our theories, ideas, our questions etc., but there no reason to insist to convice people for things which are not in deep knowledge of the subject. Anyway...


    (to the soup)
    I stick for a while for the Illyrians as mentioned. Because I really get sick...


    There are no Illyrians at Homer.
    At rapsody β΄ they well mentioned all the allies of the Trojans which they dont share the same language, and all them in contrast with the Achaeans and Danaaens and... Trojans, which they do! -at least according to Homer.

    The Trojan alllies from Europe and Asia are: Dardanians, Thracians (Cikones), Paeonians and Phrygians, Lycians, Maeonians,(later Lydians) Carians, Leleges, Paflagones, Alizones and as mentioned to Odyssey, Ethiopians also.


    Maybe; @Dupidh in some extend wish to say that Trojans related with Dardanos ?
    Dardanos/Δαρδάνος >>his son: Erichthonios/Εριχθόνιος
    from Erichthonios/Εριχθόνιος>> his son Troos/Τρώος
    from Troos/Τρώος >> his sons: Ilos( Ilion-the region. Iliad-the epic poem), Ganemedes and Assarakos.
    from Ilos/Ίλος his sons: >> Priam (the king), Laomedon.
    So in some extend Iloos/Ίλος related with Illyrians? (- I dont think so.)


    Also at that point it is good to know that at Homer's time, {-and Hesiod-} there is Hellas, as described from texts a small territory and not the today Hellas/Greece, but the Phtia/Φθία (Central Greece- Thessaly{ Pindus & Parnassus & plains of Beoetia according to Hesiod} the region of Myrmidons and Epirus the region of Dolopes/Δόλοπες of Achellous {region of Athamas the mythical king of story of the "golden fleece} which from the Dodonae till river Achellous is the core place of the people called Greeks/Γραικοί {according to Aristotle centuries later} the people that consists as the bone structure of the Κοινὸν Ἀπειρωτᾶν, Koinòn Āpeirōtân; Epirotan League {Epirus} which they get attacked from Illyrians at 3rd cent;)
    The great fun is that some peopple do not consider the Epirotans as Greeks. (!)
    Get dizzy? -Anyway
    the intriguing part is that Hellas (of antiguity) is the place of Achilleus... (Wish not to extend and engage Pelasgians to the disscusion, because as you allready realise that Greeks{Achaeans, and Dannaans for Homer} maybe are the Pelasgians as the Trojans allies also;) ...but I will keep that clue for another thread. -End of soup.



    (to the beef)
    The thread is about some indications for the moves of the antiguity populations of the Balkanic penninsula & Greece -if I get it well, but...
    Why all the above could bother us? -Because according to the texts( Homer) -at least for the case of Myceneans and the opponents of them Trojans-, all the indications show us that the Trojans related with the Greeks with common language; at least they worship the same gods, -which illyrians dont-, the kings are from Zeus- Διογέννητοι, they have a temple of Athena etc.etc. The most interesting for me is that clearly shows that Trojans have - trying to be "abstract and general"- a balkanian origin from Dardanus, while Myceneans an Anatolian one.
    The sons of Atreas >> Agamemnon, Menelaus, as they descented from Pelops which was Phrygian and ultimately in depth of time also of balkanian origin..;

    (the dessert)
    I would not rely on that for a safe conclusion from the texts, the sure -at least for me, without deep knowledge of genetics- ,is that Balkan/Anatolia works like an Hourglass or else Water clock to say, from deep prehistory even at medieval ages the roman emperors moved populations massively ( I refer in contrast the medieval times, as we consider and realise that the things are more stucked for the people to move independently compared to earlier ages...)


    So from that point I am interested and await for the perspective of genetics science to enlightened us .



    Well, this some people were the ancient greeks who considered the Epirotes as barbarians.
    17 Dec.
    Paget to the Council.
    Now the Council's letters seem to imply (words quoted) that the King will keep no strangers save the Albanoys.
    Cales, 17 Dec. 1545. Signed.
    O me zhabat në moçale, o me zhgabat lart në male!
    -Petro Nini Luarasi-

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    Termination of word BARBARIAN

    Barbarian :
    from the Greek word Βαρκιω Βαρκιζω virb means I bark,
    the dog barks, κυων βαρκιζει, κυων αλυχτα etc
    Barbarian is the the one who to the to the ears of another his language sounds like dog's bark

    BARBARIAN does not mean primitive, does not mean brutal
    but different sound as dialect or language

    period,
    to those who understand that, ok, to those who do not understand sweat dreams.

    ΕΛΛΑΣ HELLAS the area of Hellanas river were Olympic games started,
    before moved to Olympia,
    Modern day is either ΓΟΡΓΟΠΟΤΑΜΟΣ (rue/flux changed from antique) either ΣΠΕΡΧΕΙΟΣ (ALAMANA)

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    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    Well, this some people were the ancient greeks who considered the Epirotes as barbarians.
    As well the Aetolians and all the people -as Epirotans- which do not embrace the favours (law and order) of "city walls", allthough that people save Greece from the Celts... but history forget them.
    What was the reason for the barbarians Aetolians to defend the treasury of Greeks?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ΠΑΝΑΞ View Post
    As well the Aetolians and all the people -as Epirotans- which do not embrace the favours (law and order) of "city walls", allthough that people save Greece from the Celts... but history forget them.
    What was the reason for the barbarians Aetolians to defend the treasury of Greeks?
    I mean the Delphi

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    J2b is found in Pannoni Basin, modern Hungary with the migrations of possibly IE speakers from Yamnaa to West,

    J2b for me is a mark of Arcado-Cypriots

    so the question is,
    is J2b found in Hungary same with the J2b of Arcado-Cypriots?

    is it possible to be connected with the Arzawa-Assuwa population?

    and why so much rare-empty space among Europe and Asia J2b.
    it seems like it jumped a long jump leaving no traces behind.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    Termination of word BARBARIAN

    Barbarian :
    from the Greek word Βαρκιω Βαρκιζω virb means I bark,
    the dog barks, κυων βαρκιζει, κυων αλυχτα etc
    Barbarian is the the one who to the to the ears of another his language sounds like dog's bark

    BARBARIAN does not mean primitive, does not mean brutal
    but different sound as dialect or language

    period,
    to those who understand that, ok, to those who do not understand sweat dreams.

    ΕΛΛΑΣ HELLAS the area of Hellanas river were Olympic games started,
    before moved to Olympia,
    Modern day is either ΓΟΡΓΟΠΟΤΑΜΟΣ (rue/flux changed from antique) either ΣΠΕΡΧΕΙΟΣ (ALAMANA)

    Interesting is the *pa-pa-ro= (not from Pylos) also. here : http://www.palaeolexicon.com/Languages/Index#
    αρ ολ διζ Παπαριές ορ νοτ? Αι μιν δε Ιλλυριανσ

    θενκς Γέτος



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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by ΠΑΝΑΞ View Post
    Interesting is the *pa-pa-ro= (not from Pylos) also. here : http://www.palaeolexicon.com/Languages/Index#
    αρ ολ διζ Παπαριές ορ νοτ? Αι μιν δε Ιλλυριανσ

    θενκς Γέτος

    μεν πληζ, ιτ ις ΥΕΤΟΣ φρομ δε χομερικ Υει μηνινκ βρεχει
    ση Υετογραφημα

    πσ

    Ι λαικτ (to the beef),
    μηνσ στο ψητο?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ΠΑΝΑΞ View Post
    (prologue)
    I would like to inform myself from the genetics data which kindly shared from respectable forum members, but it seems impossible with all that noise to ever end in safe conclusions.


    I suppose we all are history enthusiasts, of course we have different interpretations up on the same facts. It is also nice to share with other people our theories, ideas, our questions etc., but there no reason to insist to convice people for things which are not in deep knowledge of the subject. Anyway...


    (to the soup)
    I stick for a while for the Illyrians as mentioned. Because I really get sick...


    There are no Illyrians at Homer.
    At rapsody β΄ they well mentioned all the allies of the Trojans which they dont share the same language, and all them in contrast with the Achaeans and Danaaens and... Trojans, which they do! -at least according to Homer.

    The Trojan alllies from Europe and Asia are: Dardanians, Thracians (Cikones), Paeonians and Phrygians, Lycians, Maeonians,(later Lydians) Carians, Leleges, Paflagones, Alizones and as mentioned to Odyssey, Ethiopians also.


    Maybe; @Dupidh in some extend wish to say that Trojans related with Dardanos ?
    Dardanos/Δαρδάνος >>his son: Erichthonios/Εριχθόνιος
    from Erichthonios/Εριχθόνιος>> his son Troos/Τρώος
    from Troos/Τρώος >> his sons: Ilos( Ilion-the region. Iliad-the epic poem), Ganemedes and Assarakos.
    from Ilos/Ίλος his sons: >> Priam (the king), Laomedon.
    So in some extend Iloos/Ίλος related with Illyrians? (- I dont think so.)


    Also at that point it is good to know that at Homer's time, {-and Hesiod-} there is Hellas, as described from texts a small territory and not the today Hellas/Greece, but the Phtia/Φθία (Central Greece- Thessaly{ Pindus & Parnassus & plains of Beoetia according to Hesiod} the region of Myrmidons and Epirus the region of Dolopes/Δόλοπες of Achellous {region of Athamas the mythical king of story of the "golden fleece} which from the Dodonae till river Achellous is the core place of the people called Greeks/Γραικοί {according to Aristotle centuries later} the people that consists as the bone structure of the Κοινὸν Ἀπειρωτᾶν, Koinòn Āpeirōtân; Epirotan League {Epirus} which they get attacked from Illyrians at 3rd cent;)
    The great fun is that some peopple do not consider the Epirotans as Greeks. (!)
    Get dizzy? -Anyway
    the intriguing part is that Hellas (of antiguity) is the place of Achilleus... (Wish not to extend and engage Pelasgians to the disscusion, because as you allready realise that Greeks{Achaeans, and Dannaans for Homer} maybe are the Pelasgians as the Trojans allies also;) ...but I will keep that clue for another thread. -End of soup.



    (to the beef)
    The thread is about some indications for the moves of the antiguity populations of the Balkanic penninsula & Greece -if I get it well, but...
    Why all the above could bother us? -Because according to the texts( Homer) -at least for the case of Myceneans and the opponents of them Trojans-, all the indications show us that the Trojans related with the Greeks with common language; at least they worship the same gods, -which illyrians dont-, the kings are from Zeus- Διογέννητοι, they have a temple of Athena etc.etc. The most interesting for me is that clearly shows that Trojans have - trying to be "abstract and general"- a balkanian origin from Dardanus, while Myceneans an Anatolian one.
    The sons of Atreas >> Agamemnon, Menelaus, as they descented from Pelops which was Phrygian and ultimately in depth of time also of balkanian origin..;

    (the dessert)
    I would not rely on that for a safe conclusion from the texts, the sure -at least for me, without deep knowledge of genetics- ,is that Balkan/Anatolia works like an Hourglass or else Water clock to say, from deep prehistory even at medieval ages the roman emperors moved populations massively ( I refer in contrast the medieval times, as we consider and realise that the things are more stucked for the people to move independently compared to earlier ages...)


    So from that point I am interested and await for the perspective of genetics science to enlightened us .



    We also need to state that the dardanians in homer are from Modern Turkey and are not-related to the dardanians of modern Kosovo

    The Epirotians with their confederation of 14 tribes are not all greek unless one thinks that the Dorians of the late bronze age are greeks

    The Paflagones should be correctly referred to as the Pala people , speaking Palaic IE language as per Hittite tablets ...........

    Thracian Cikones, yes and IIRC the Thracian Bessi as well
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    We also need to state that the dardanians in homer are from Modern Turkey and are not-related to the dardanians of modern Kosovo

    The Epirotians with their confederation of 14 tribes are not all greek unless one thinks that the Dorians of the late bronze age are greeks

    The Paflagones should be correctly referred to as the Pala people , speaking Palaic IE language as per Hittite tablets ...........

    Thracian Cikones, yes and IIRC the Thracian Bessi as well
    Your first statment meakes sense. Scholars don't try to connect them usually (although I don't get it, imo they can be connected, for example those who lost the war could have expanded towards Balkans).

    Dardanians of Balkans are thought to be Thraco-Illyrian or something. Greek mythology connects them to Illyrians, although the Romans considered them Greeks.

    The Dorians were Hellenic obviously. Epirotans were linguistically Hellenic, just like Umbrians were Italic. Genetically we don't know but there's no reason to assume they were more mixed than any other Hellenic speaking group.
    They weren't considered Hellenes though. English translations makes things worse, because they translate 'Hellas' and 'Hellenes' as 'Greece' and 'Greeks'.

    Actually Dorian/NW Greek should be closer to the language we would label proto-Greek than Attic is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    Termination of word BARBARIAN

    Barbarian :
    from the Greek word Βαρκιω Βαρκιζω virb means I bark,
    the dog barks, κυων βαρκιζει, κυων αλυχτα etc
    Barbarian is the the one who to the to the ears of another his language sounds like dog's bark

    BARBARIAN does not mean primitive, does not mean brutal
    but different sound as dialect or language

    period,
    to those who understand that, ok, to those who do not understand sweat dreams.

    ΕΛΛΑΣ HELLAS the area of Hellanas river were Olympic games started,
    before moved to Olympia,
    Modern day is either ΓΟΡΓΟΠΟΤΑΜΟΣ (rue/flux changed from antique) either ΣΠΕΡΧΕΙΟΣ (ALAMANA)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbarian
    According to Oxford English Dictionary :
    2. Hist. a. One not a Greek.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DuPidh View Post
    You tend to ignore that nomadic lifestyle was common at that time. Dorians could have just quickly passed through Illyrian lands, pushed by Illyrians, since Illyrians were territorial. Or Dorians were another Illyrian tribe looking for a warm place to settle. Genetics of Dorians in Greece is identical of Tosk Albanians so being an Illyrian tribe is a high possibility. Again Illyrians were known to Greeks. Homer wrote about them about the time you are talking about
    How fascinating. Could you provide a link to the study which published results for an ancient Dorian sample?

    You have made this claim about Illyrians in the Iliad numerous times. It's been challenged numerous times, including by me. If you can't provide proof for it, then stop asserting it. It's just meaningless spam.

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    Every post from number 60 up to and including number 72 will be deleted shortly as off-topic. If you want to preserve them, re-post in the Balkanian disagreements thread.

    I am sick and tired of complaints from other members that these Balkan Wars ruin so many threads.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ΠΑΝΑΞ View Post
    Interesting is the *pa-pa-ro= (not from Pylos) also. here : http://www.palaeolexicon.com/Languages/Index#
    αρ ολ διζ Παπαριές ορ νοτ? Αι μιν δε Ιλλυριανσ

    θενκς Γέτος


    I am curious, who is/are the author/s behind this website who spread this paparies around in internet?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Every post from number 60 up to and including number 72 will be deleted shortly as off-topic. If you want to preserve them, re-post in the Balkanian disagreements thread.

    I am sick and tired of complaints from other members that these Balkan Wars ruin so many threads.
    Then, let me suggest you. You have to start from the post 54.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Every post from number 60 up to and including number 72 will be deleted shortly as off-topic. If you want to preserve them, re-post in the Balkanian disagreements thread.

    I am sick and tired of complaints from other members that these Balkan Wars ruin so many threads.
    Excuse me, but people here can speak about Epir whatever they want, meanwhile my posts where i quoted Herodotus, Thunman and Oxford Dictionary about this region and ancient inhabitants, are deleted. Why?

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    How fascinating. Could you provide a link to the study which published results for an ancient Dorian sample?

    You have made this claim about Illyrians in the Iliad numerous times. It's been challenged numerous times, including by me. If you can't provide proof for it, then stop asserting it. It's just meaningless spam.
    Well, Dardanians were an Illyrian tribe, so were Paonians. Just take a Latin map of that time and see where Dardania is. Dardanians of that time were occupying whats today Slavic Macedonia so they were in proximity of the battlefield.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    How fascinating. Could you provide a link to the study which published results for an ancient Dorian sample?

    You have made this claim about Illyrians in the Iliad numerous times. It's been challenged numerous times, including by me. If you can't provide proof for it, then stop asserting it. It's just meaningless spam.
    This is a thread about genetics, but lets not fool ourselves, without taking in consideration known populations movements our understanding will be skewed.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1 ..Pannoni

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    Quote Originally Posted by DuPidh View Post
    Well, Dardanians were an Illyrian tribe, so were Paonians. Just take a Latin map of that time and see where Dardania is. Dardanians of that time were occupying whats today Slavic Macedonia so they were in proximity of the battlefield.
    wrong,
    the illyrians where not that far south in the balkans when the dardanians where first recorded in history ..........either they where are sub-branch of the thracians called moesians or they where a branch of the macedonians .
    The dardanians had originally a lot of fertile lands in moesia and where continuously attacked by thracians and macedonians and later celts for this land , they eventually migrated to the mountains of kosovo

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    wrong post

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    wrong,
    the illyrians where not that far south in the balkans when the dardanians where first recorded in history ..........either they where are sub-branch of the thracians called moesians or they where a branch of the macedonians .
    The dardanians had originally a lot of fertile lands in moesia and where continuously attacked by thracians and macedonians and later celts for this land , they eventually migrated to the mountains of kosovo
    I posted the evidence, but it was deleted.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    There was a glitch.

    The most egregiously off-topic posts have been deleted. I would remind people this is a genetics thread. There's a limit to how far off topic you can go. Any disputes over who is or who is not Albanian or Greek, or posts about the ethnogenesis of these peoples don't belong on this thread. A specific thread was created for that purpose; USE IT.

    @ Papadimitriou and Spartan Owl,

    As your posts requesting that I delete off topic posts quoted the off topic material, I thought it best to delete them.

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