J2b as an IE lineages of the ancient Illyrians & Mycenaeans

I agree with you,

the illyrians where not known to greeks in the early iron-age or bronze-age.

plus the Dorians came from these "illyrians" lands into Greece ~1100BC ............so the Greeks knew about the lands of the Dorians but never mentioned illyrians

You tend to ignore that nomadic lifestyle was common at that time. Dorians could have just quickly passed through Illyrian lands, pushed by Illyrians, since Illyrians were territorial. Or Dorians were another Illyrian tribe looking for a warm place to settle. Genetics of Dorians in Greece is identical of Tosk Albanians so being an Illyrian tribe is a high possibility. Again Illyrians were known to Greeks. Homer wrote about them about the time you are talking about
 
enlighten me then

The only mention of people of known Illyrian stock by Greeks after the talk about the Dorian , northern invasion of Greece, was the Corinthian victory over the liburbian occupation of Corfu ~700BC...........it clearly states Corinthian victory over liburunians . The Corinthians then occupied and settled corfu and also some coastal mainland next to Corfu.

the Liburnians are north adriatic "illyrian" tribe.

My take of the term Illyrian is a geographical term similar to the term British or Iberian ....that is , not a defined people , but a people living in these lands

Geographic names are given from people who inhabit the geography. Illyrian is a word used in everyday Albanian meaning "being free". Since slavery was rampant in ancient Greece, Illyrians were terrified by the scenes where people where chained, beaten, and working for someone else. The geographic name for such a wide territory at that ancient time is hard to have been unified, but what What Illyrians were pointing out was that "they were free", not slaves, like Greek inhabited lands. Foreigners not knowing what "I lire meant" thought the place was called Illyria. I think you live in Australia. Its the same case like word "kangaroo". In aborigine Australian Kangaroo means " I don't understand" but drunk English thought Kangaroo was the name of the animal
 
I have read the entire iliad and odyssey twice and i had never noticed the illirians to be mentioned!I do remember the thracians but not the illirians. But on the other hand it have been over ten years since the last time reading it so maybe i have forgotten or maybe i just did not notice it.
Can you help me by reminding me?

Its mentioned 3 times. I have seen it myself in an English publication
 
Geographic names are given from people who inhabit the geography. Illyrian is a word used in everyday Albanian meaning "being free". Since slavery was rampant in ancient Greece, Illyrians were terrified by the scenes where people where chained, beaten, and working for someone else. The geographic name for such a wide territory at that ancient time is hard to have been unified, but what What Illyrians were pointing out was that "they were free", not slaves, like Greek inhabited lands. Foreigners not knowing what "I lire meant" thought the place was called Illyria. I think you live in Australia. Its the same case like word "kangaroo". In aborigine Australian Kangaroo means " I don't understand" but drunk English thought Kangaroo was the name of the animal

That is a pseudoetymology. I can propose one too without trying much, for example that the word was cognate with Old Norse 'illr' (=evil, bad) and it meant 'fierce'.
 
That is a pseudoetymology. I can propose one too without trying much, for example that the word was cognate with Old Norse 'illr' (=evil, bad) and it meant 'fierce'.

You know Ancient Greece! Not everyone was identifying as Hellen. They were Identifying by the region like Macedon, Trinacria, etc.. There was not the notion of nation like it is today. A Macedonian did not feel Helen even if the spoke the same language. It can't be said that Illyrians of antiquity were unified by language so they could see each other as one. So the only thing that realy united them was freedom which they expressed to the foreigners.
 
For you to claim that J2b2-L283 is found in all India is wrong. In fact, there is only one person that I know of from India who is L283>>Z628(Z1296-), who ultimately may or may not be of European origin - we don't know since he is the only Z628+ there, while everyone else is under J2b2-Z2432.

I never said it was found all over India. Just that it was found in India. Anyway, the India Pakistan Nepal Project at FTDNA has only 744 members for a region that has 1.2 billion inhabitants. It's hardly representative. Unfortunately I don't know of any paper that tested J2b2 subclades. The largest paper on Indian Y-DNA is Sengupta et al. (2006). They found 53 J2b2 samples out of 1089 individuals, and Singh et al. (2016), who found 74 J2b men out of 162 Indian J2 samples (see sup. table 3). That is far more than the 12 Indian people at the FTDNA J2b Project. I doubt the subclade can be determined from the few STR available, but perhaps you could look into it?

TMRCA of J2b2-L283 is not 4400 ybp. It is 5900 ybp, as you can see here. I will give you a map of all currently known L283+ and Z585- samples, or basal L283. As you can see, they are spread throughout Europe, and none outside of Europe:

Sorry, I meant to say that Z628 (aka Z597) has a TMRCA of 4400 years. It is the branch that we were discussing, which is found in India and the Middle East (but also in many parts of Europe like the Balkans, Italy, Germany, Scandinavia and Portugal). I have a particularly busy day yesterday and replied in a hurry between two meetings.
 
I never said it was found all over India. Just that it was found in India. Anyway, the India Pakistan Nepal Project at FTDNA has only 744 members for a region that has 1.2 billion inhabitants. It's hardly representative. Unfortunately I don't know of any paper that tested J2b2 subclades. The largest paper on Indian Y-DNA is Sengupta et al. (2006). They found 53 J2b2 samples out of 1089 individuals, and Singh et al. (2016), who found 74 J2b men out of 162 Indian J2 samples (see sup. table 3). That is far more than the 12 Indian people at the FTDNA J2b Project. I doubt the subclade can be determined from the few STR available, but perhaps you could look into it?

While I can't say with a 100% certainty due to a limited amount of markers tested, all of J2b2's from both papers appear to be under the typical South Asian branch, J2b2-Z2432 aka Z2444.

Furthermore, at J-M241 Project at FTDNA, out of about 25 South Asian J2b2's, all but one are under the South Asian branch, J2b2-Z2432,Z2444. So no, there is no evidence that J2b2-L283 has a presence in India, unless you're basing this on only one example, but then we also have one predicted J2b2-Z2432 in Europe (Germany).
 
You know Ancient Greece! Not everyone was identifying as Hellen. They were Identifying by the region like Macedon, Trinacria, etc.. There was not the notion of nation like it is today. A Macedonian did not feel Helen even if the spoke the same language. It can't be said that Illyrians of antiquity were unified by language so they could see each other as one. So the only thing that realy united them was freedom which they expressed to the foreigners.

No, you are wrong with this theory of freedom. For the ancient greeks the world was divided in greeks and barbarians. Someone from Sparta considered someone from Athens as people of the same "nation".
 
The presence of Illyrians in the Balkan is also documented. Homer mentioned the Illyrians in his "Iliad" poem. The "Iliad" is approximately written in 10 century BC . So 300 BC is too low for time Illyrians were present in Balkans. Keep in mind they did not show up the day Homer wrote Iliad


can you give a Link of Ilias?
or at least the place where is mentioned?
 
I never understood what this "indo-european" thing is or why it's so important. And I don't understand the "indo-european" language family how is it similar at all? European languages themselves are so vastly different despite the fact the populations are admixed genetically, culturally and live in such close proximity. BARELY any similarities, basically none. There's germanic, Latino, and Slavic languages and that's enough label for it. Don't understand the need to put them all under some umbrella. I think it's digging too deep. You go deep enough there's some connections with every human being on this planet, but very minor things are very unimportant. There are more Turkic words in Bosnian, I'm sure more than Indian words so technically it makes more sense to call Bosnian Turco-European. Can't speak for other languages but I think Bulgarian, Russian and Hungarian are probably more similar to Turkic than any kind of Indian or even some modern European languages.

Your good sense is maybe too superficial? - You ought to read more about paleo-linguistic.
 
(prologue)
I would like to inform myself from the genetics data which kindly shared from respectable forum members, but it seems impossible with all that noise to ever end in safe conclusions.


I suppose we all are history enthusiasts, of course we have different interpretations up on the same facts. It is also nice to share with other people our theories, ideas, our questions etc., but there no reason to insist to convice people for things which are not in deep knowledge of the subject. Anyway...


(to the soup)
I stick for a while for the Illyrians as mentioned. Because I really get sick...


There are no Illyrians at Homer.
At rapsody β΄ they well mentioned all the allies of the Trojans which they dont share the same language, and all them in contrast with the Achaeans and Danaaens and... Trojans, which they do! -at least according to Homer.

The Trojan alllies from Europe and Asia are: Dardanians, Thracians (Cikones), Paeonians and Phrygians, Lycians, Maeonians,(later Lydians) Carians, Leleges, Paflagones, Alizones and as mentioned to Odyssey, Ethiopians also.


Maybe; @Dupidh in some extend wish to say that Trojans related with Dardanos ?
Dardanos/Δαρδάνος >>his son: Erichthonios/Εριχθόνιος
from Erichthonios/Εριχθόνιος>> his son Troos/Τρώος
from Troos/Τρώος >> his sons: Ilos( Ilion-the region. Iliad-the epic poem), Ganemedes and Assarakos.
from Ilos/Ίλος his sons: >> Priam (the king), Laomedon.
So in some extend Iloos/Ίλος related with Illyrians? (- I dont think so.)


Also at that point it is good to know that at Homer's time, {-and Hesiod-} there is Hellas, as described from texts a small territory and not the today Hellas/Greece, but the Phtia/Φθία (Central Greece- Thessaly{ Pindus & Parnassus & plains of Beoetia according to Hesiod} the region of Myrmidons and Epirus the region of Dolopes/Δόλοπες of Achellous {region of Athamas the mythical king of story of the "golden fleece} which from the Dodonae till river Achellous is the core place of the people called Greeks/Γραικοί {according to Aristotle centuries later} the people that consists as the bone structure of the Κοινὸν Ἀπειρωτᾶν, Koinòn Āpeirōtân; Epirotan League {Epirus} which they get attacked from Illyrians at 3rd cent;)
The great fun is that some peopple do not consider the Epirotans as Greeks. (!)
Get dizzy? -Anyway
the intriguing part is that Hellas (of antiguity) is the place of Achilleus... (Wish not to extend and engage Pelasgians to the disscusion, because as you allready realise that Greeks{Achaeans, and Dannaans for Homer} maybe are the Pelasgians as the Trojans allies also;) ...but I will keep that clue for another thread. -End of soup.



(to the beef)
The thread is about some indications for the moves of the antiguity populations of the Balkanic penninsula & Greece -if I get it well, but...
Why all the above could bother us? -Because according to the texts( Homer) -at least for the case of Myceneans and the opponents of them Trojans-, all the indications show us that the Trojans related with the Greeks with common language; at least they worship the same gods, -which illyrians dont-, the kings are from Zeus- Διογέννητοι, they have a temple of Athena etc.etc. The most interesting for me is that clearly shows that Trojans have - trying to be "abstract and general"- a balkanian origin from Dardanus, while Myceneans an Anatolian one.
The sons of Atreas >> Agamemnon, Menelaus, as they descented from Pelops which was Phrygian and ultimately in depth of time also of balkanian origin..;

(the dessert)
I would not rely on that for a safe conclusion from the texts, the sure -at least for me, without deep knowledge of genetics- ,is that Balkan/Anatolia works like an Hourglass or else Water clock to say, from deep prehistory even at medieval ages the roman emperors moved populations massively ( I refer in contrast the medieval times, as we consider and realise that the things are more stucked for the people to move independently compared to earlier ages...)


So from that point I am interested and await for the perspective of genetics science to enlightened us .



 
(prologue)
I would like to inform myself from the genetics data which kindly shared from respectable forum members, but it seems impossible with all that noise to ever end in safe conclusions.


I suppose we all are history enthusiasts, of course we have different interpretations up on the same facts. It is also nice to share with other people our theories, ideas, our questions etc., but there no reason to insist to convice people for things which are not in deep knowledge of the subject. Anyway...


(to the soup)
I stick for a while for the Illyrians as mentioned. Because I really get sick...


There are no Illyrians at Homer.
At rapsody β΄ they well mentioned all the allies of the Trojans which they dont share the same language, and all them in contrast with the Achaeans and Danaaens and... Trojans, which they do! -at least according to Homer.

The Trojan alllies from Europe and Asia are: Dardanians, Thracians (Cikones), Paeonians and Phrygians, Lycians, Maeonians,(later Lydians) Carians, Leleges, Paflagones, Alizones and as mentioned to Odyssey, Ethiopians also.


Maybe; @Dupidh in some extend wish to say that Trojans related with Dardanos ?
Dardanos/Δαρδάνος >>his son: Erichthonios/Εριχθόνιος
from Erichthonios/Εριχθόνιος>> his son Troos/Τρώος
from Troos/Τρώος >> his sons: Ilos( Ilion-the region. Iliad-the epic poem), Ganemedes and Assarakos.
from Ilos/Ίλος his sons: >> Priam (the king), Laomedon.
So in some extend Iloos/Ίλος related with Illyrians? (- I dont think so.)


Also at that point it is good to know that at Homer's time, {-and Hesiod-} there is Hellas, as described from texts a small territory and not the today Hellas/Greece, but the Phtia/Φθία (Central Greece- Thessaly{ Pindus & Parnassus & plains of Beoetia according to Hesiod} the region of Myrmidons and Epirus the region of Dolopes/Δόλοπες of Achellous {region of Athamas the mythical king of story of the "golden fleece} which from the Dodonae till river Achellous is the core place of the people called Greeks/Γραικοί {according to Aristotle centuries later} the people that consists as the bone structure of the Κοινὸν Ἀπειρωτᾶν, Koinòn Āpeirōtân; Epirotan League {Epirus} which they get attacked from Illyrians at 3rd cent;)
The great fun is that some peopple do not consider the Epirotans as Greeks. (!)
Get dizzy? -Anyway
the intriguing part is that Hellas (of antiguity) is the place of Achilleus... (Wish not to extend and engage Pelasgians to the disscusion, because as you allready realise that Greeks{Achaeans, and Dannaans for Homer} maybe are the Pelasgians as the Trojans allies also;) ...but I will keep that clue for another thread. -End of soup.



(to the beef)
The thread is about some indications for the moves of the antiguity populations of the Balkanic penninsula & Greece -if I get it well, but...
Why all the above could bother us? -Because according to the texts( Homer) -at least for the case of Myceneans and the opponents of them Trojans-, all the indications show us that the Trojans related with the Greeks with common language; at least they worship the same gods, -which illyrians dont-, the kings are from Zeus- Διογέννητοι, they have a temple of Athena etc.etc. The most interesting for me is that clearly shows that Trojans have - trying to be "abstract and general"- a balkanian origin from Dardanus, while Myceneans an Anatolian one.
The sons of Atreas >> Agamemnon, Menelaus, as they descented from Pelops which was Phrygian and ultimately in depth of time also of balkanian origin..;

(the dessert)
I would not rely on that for a safe conclusion from the texts, the sure -at least for me, without deep knowledge of genetics- ,is that Balkan/Anatolia works like an Hourglass or else Water clock to say, from deep prehistory even at medieval ages the roman emperors moved populations massively ( I refer in contrast the medieval times, as we consider and realise that the things are more stucked for the people to move independently compared to earlier ages...)


So from that point I am interested and await for the perspective of genetics science to enlightened us .




Well, this some people were the ancient greeks who considered the Epirotes as barbarians.
 
Termination of word BARBARIAN

Barbarian :
from the Greek word Βαρκιω Βαρκιζω virb means I bark,
the dog barks, κυων βαρκιζει, κυων αλυχτα etc
Barbarian is the the one who to the to the ears of another his language sounds like dog's bark

BARBARIAN does not mean primitive, does not mean brutal
but different sound as dialect or language

period,
to those who understand that, ok, to those who do not understand sweat dreams.

ΕΛΛΑΣ HELLAS the area of Hellanas river were Olympic games started,
before moved to Olympia,
Modern day is either ΓΟΡΓΟΠΟΤΑΜΟΣ (rue/flux changed from antique) either ΣΠΕΡΧΕΙΟΣ (ALAMANA)
 
Well, this some people were the ancient greeks who considered the Epirotes as barbarians.

As well the Aetolians and all the people -as Epirotans- which do not embrace the favours (law and order) of "city walls", allthough that people save Greece from the Celts... but history forget them.
What was the reason for the barbarians Aetolians to defend the treasury of Greeks?
 
As well the Aetolians and all the people -as Epirotans- which do not embrace the favours (law and order) of "city walls", allthough that people save Greece from the Celts... but history forget them.
What was the reason for the barbarians Aetolians to defend the treasury of Greeks?

I mean the Delphi
 
J2b is found in Pannoni Basin, modern Hungary with the migrations of possibly IE speakers from Yamnaa to West,

J2b for me is a mark of Arcado-Cypriots

so the question is,
is J2b found in Hungary same with the J2b of Arcado-Cypriots?

is it possible to be connected with the Arzawa-Assuwa population?

and why so much rare-empty space among Europe and Asia J2b.
it seems like it jumped a long jump leaving no traces behind.
 
Termination of word BARBARIAN

Barbarian :
from the Greek word Βαρκιω Βαρκιζω virb means I bark,
the dog barks, κυων βαρκιζει, κυων αλυχτα etc
Barbarian is the the one who to the to the ears of another his language sounds like dog's bark

BARBARIAN does not mean primitive, does not mean brutal
but different sound as dialect or language

period,
to those who understand that, ok, to those who do not understand sweat dreams.

ΕΛΛΑΣ HELLAS the area of Hellanas river were Olympic games started,
before moved to Olympia,
Modern day is either ΓΟΡΓΟΠΟΤΑΜΟΣ (rue/flux changed from antique) either ΣΠΕΡΧΕΙΟΣ (ALAMANA)


Interesting is the *pa-pa-ro= (not from Pylos) also. here : http://www.palaeolexicon.com/Languages/Index#
αρ ολ διζ Παπαριές ορ νοτ? Αι μιν δε Ιλλυριανσ

:LOL: θενκς Γέτος


 

This thread has been viewed 112310 times.

Back
Top