J2b as an IE lineages of the ancient Illyrians & Mycenaeans

Interesting is the *pa-pa-ro= (not from Pylos) also. here : http://www.palaeolexicon.com/Languages/Index#
αρ ολ διζ Παπαριές ορ νοτ? Αι μιν δε Ιλλυριανσ

:LOL: θενκς Γέτος


μεν πληζ, ιτ ις ΥΕΤΟΣ φρομ δε χομερικ Υει μηνινκ βρεχει
ση Υετογραφημα

πσ

Ι λαικτ (to the beef),
μηνσ στο ψητο?
 
(prologue)
I would like to inform myself from the genetics data which kindly shared from respectable forum members, but it seems impossible with all that noise to ever end in safe conclusions.


I suppose we all are history enthusiasts, of course we have different interpretations up on the same facts. It is also nice to share with other people our theories, ideas, our questions etc., but there no reason to insist to convice people for things which are not in deep knowledge of the subject. Anyway...


(to the soup)
I stick for a while for the Illyrians as mentioned. Because I really get sick...


There are no Illyrians at Homer.
At rapsody β΄ they well mentioned all the allies of the Trojans which they dont share the same language, and all them in contrast with the Achaeans and Danaaens and... Trojans, which they do! -at least according to Homer.

The Trojan alllies from Europe and Asia are: Dardanians, Thracians (Cikones), Paeonians and Phrygians, Lycians, Maeonians,(later Lydians) Carians, Leleges, Paflagones, Alizones and as mentioned to Odyssey, Ethiopians also.


Maybe; @Dupidh in some extend wish to say that Trojans related with Dardanos ?
Dardanos/Δαρδάνος >>his son: Erichthonios/Εριχθόνιος
from Erichthonios/Εριχθόνιος>> his son Troos/Τρώος
from Troos/Τρώος >> his sons: Ilos( Ilion-the region. Iliad-the epic poem), Ganemedes and Assarakos.
from Ilos/Ίλος his sons: >> Priam (the king), Laomedon.
So in some extend Iloos/Ίλος related with Illyrians? (- I dont think so.)


Also at that point it is good to know that at Homer's time, {-and Hesiod-} there is Hellas, as described from texts a small territory and not the today Hellas/Greece, but the Phtia/Φθία (Central Greece- Thessaly{ Pindus & Parnassus & plains of Beoetia according to Hesiod} the region of Myrmidons and Epirus the region of Dolopes/Δόλοπες of Achellous {region of Athamas the mythical king of story of the "golden fleece} which from the Dodonae till river Achellous is the core place of the people called Greeks/Γραικοί {according to Aristotle centuries later} the people that consists as the bone structure of the Κοινὸν Ἀπειρωτᾶν, Koinòn Āpeirōtân; Epirotan League {Epirus} which they get attacked from Illyrians at 3rd cent;)
The great fun is that some peopple do not consider the Epirotans as Greeks. (!)
Get dizzy? -Anyway
the intriguing part is that Hellas (of antiguity) is the place of Achilleus... (Wish not to extend and engage Pelasgians to the disscusion, because as you allready realise that Greeks{Achaeans, and Dannaans for Homer} maybe are the Pelasgians as the Trojans allies also;) ...but I will keep that clue for another thread. -End of soup.



(to the beef)
The thread is about some indications for the moves of the antiguity populations of the Balkanic penninsula & Greece -if I get it well, but...
Why all the above could bother us? -Because according to the texts( Homer) -at least for the case of Myceneans and the opponents of them Trojans-, all the indications show us that the Trojans related with the Greeks with common language; at least they worship the same gods, -which illyrians dont-, the kings are from Zeus- Διογέννητοι, they have a temple of Athena etc.etc. The most interesting for me is that clearly shows that Trojans have - trying to be "abstract and general"- a balkanian origin from Dardanus, while Myceneans an Anatolian one.
The sons of Atreas >> Agamemnon, Menelaus, as they descented from Pelops which was Phrygian and ultimately in depth of time also of balkanian origin..;

(the dessert)
I would not rely on that for a safe conclusion from the texts, the sure -at least for me, without deep knowledge of genetics- ,is that Balkan/Anatolia works like an Hourglass or else Water clock to say, from deep prehistory even at medieval ages the roman emperors moved populations massively ( I refer in contrast the medieval times, as we consider and realise that the things are more stucked for the people to move independently compared to earlier ages...)


So from that point I am interested and await for the perspective of genetics science to enlightened us .




We also need to state that the dardanians in homer are from Modern Turkey and are not-related to the dardanians of modern Kosovo

The Epirotians with their confederation of 14 tribes are not all greek unless one thinks that the Dorians of the late bronze age are greeks

The Paflagones should be correctly referred to as the Pala people , speaking Palaic IE language as per Hittite tablets ...........

Thracian Cikones, yes and IIRC the Thracian Bessi as well
 
We also need to state that the dardanians in homer are from Modern Turkey and are not-related to the dardanians of modern Kosovo

The Epirotians with their confederation of 14 tribes are not all greek unless one thinks that the Dorians of the late bronze age are greeks

The Paflagones should be correctly referred to as the Pala people , speaking Palaic IE language as per Hittite tablets ...........

Thracian Cikones, yes and IIRC the Thracian Bessi as well
Your first statment meakes sense. Scholars don't try to connect them usually (although I don't get it, imo they can be connected, for example those who lost the war could have expanded towards Balkans).

Dardanians of Balkans are thought to be Thraco-Illyrian or something. Greek mythology connects them to Illyrians, although the Romans considered them Greeks.

The Dorians were Hellenic obviously. Epirotans were linguistically Hellenic, just like Umbrians were Italic. Genetically we don't know but there's no reason to assume they were more mixed than any other Hellenic speaking group.
They weren't considered Hellenes though. English translations makes things worse, because they translate 'Hellas' and 'Hellenes' as 'Greece' and 'Greeks'.

Actually Dorian/NW Greek should be closer to the language we would label proto-Greek than Attic is.
 
Termination of word BARBARIAN

Barbarian :
from the Greek word Βαρκιω Βαρκιζω virb means I bark,
the dog barks, κυων βαρκιζει, κυων αλυχτα etc
Barbarian is the the one who to the to the ears of another his language sounds like dog's bark

BARBARIAN does not mean primitive, does not mean brutal
but different sound as dialect or language

period,
to those who understand that, ok, to those who do not understand sweat dreams.

ΕΛΛΑΣ HELLAS the area of Hellanas river were Olympic games started,
before moved to Olympia,
Modern day is either ΓΟΡΓΟΠΟΤΑΜΟΣ (rue/flux changed from antique) either ΣΠΕΡΧΕΙΟΣ (ALAMANA)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbarian
According to Oxford English Dictionary :
2. Hist. a. One not a Greek.
 
You tend to ignore that nomadic lifestyle was common at that time. Dorians could have just quickly passed through Illyrian lands, pushed by Illyrians, since Illyrians were territorial. Or Dorians were another Illyrian tribe looking for a warm place to settle. Genetics of Dorians in Greece is identical of Tosk Albanians so being an Illyrian tribe is a high possibility. Again Illyrians were known to Greeks. Homer wrote about them about the time you are talking about
How fascinating. Could you provide a link to the study which published results for an ancient Dorian sample?

You have made this claim about Illyrians in the Iliad numerous times. It's been challenged numerous times, including by me. If you can't provide proof for it, then stop asserting it. It's just meaningless spam.
 
Every post from number 60 up to and including number 72 will be deleted shortly as off-topic. If you want to preserve them, re-post in the Balkanian disagreements thread.

I am sick and tired of complaints from other members that these Balkan Wars ruin so many threads.
 
Every post from number 60 up to and including number 72 will be deleted shortly as off-topic. If you want to preserve them, re-post in the Balkanian disagreements thread.

I am sick and tired of complaints from other members that these Balkan Wars ruin so many threads.

Then, let me suggest you. You have to start from the post 54.
 
Every post from number 60 up to and including number 72 will be deleted shortly as off-topic. If you want to preserve them, re-post in the Balkanian disagreements thread.

I am sick and tired of complaints from other members that these Balkan Wars ruin so many threads.

Excuse me, but people here can speak about Epir whatever they want, meanwhile my posts where i quoted Herodotus, Thunman and Oxford Dictionary about this region and ancient inhabitants, are deleted. Why?
 
How fascinating. Could you provide a link to the study which published results for an ancient Dorian sample?

You have made this claim about Illyrians in the Iliad numerous times. It's been challenged numerous times, including by me. If you can't provide proof for it, then stop asserting it. It's just meaningless spam.
Well, Dardanians were an Illyrian tribe, so were Paonians. Just take a Latin map of that time and see where Dardania is. Dardanians of that time were occupying whats today Slavic Macedonia so they were in proximity of the battlefield.
 
How fascinating. Could you provide a link to the study which published results for an ancient Dorian sample?

You have made this claim about Illyrians in the Iliad numerous times. It's been challenged numerous times, including by me. If you can't provide proof for it, then stop asserting it. It's just meaningless spam.

This is a thread about genetics, but lets not fool ourselves, without taking in consideration known populations movements our understanding will be skewed.
 
Well, Dardanians were an Illyrian tribe, so were Paonians. Just take a Latin map of that time and see where Dardania is. Dardanians of that time were occupying whats today Slavic Macedonia so they were in proximity of the battlefield.

wrong,
the illyrians where not that far south in the balkans when the dardanians where first recorded in history ..........either they where are sub-branch of the thracians called moesians or they where a branch of the macedonians .
The dardanians had originally a lot of fertile lands in moesia and where continuously attacked by thracians and macedonians and later celts for this land , they eventually migrated to the mountains of kosovo
 
wrong post :innocent:
 
wrong,
the illyrians where not that far south in the balkans when the dardanians where first recorded in history ..........either they where are sub-branch of the thracians called moesians or they where a branch of the macedonians .
The dardanians had originally a lot of fertile lands in moesia and where continuously attacked by thracians and macedonians and later celts for this land , they eventually migrated to the mountains of kosovo

I posted the evidence, but it was deleted.
 
There was a glitch.

The most egregiously off-topic posts have been deleted. I would remind people this is a genetics thread. There's a limit to how far off topic you can go. Any disputes over who is or who is not Albanian or Greek, or posts about the ethnogenesis of these peoples don't belong on this thread. A specific thread was created for that purpose; USE IT.

@ Papadimitriou and Spartan Owl,

As your posts requesting that I delete off topic posts quoted the off topic material, I thought it best to delete them.
 
nothing

I keep silent.

reading stupid propganda lies,
that even those who wrote it do not believe it
 
Ok I do not want another infraction

but it has gone too far
 
I hope I'm not adding any fuel to fires around here...

There have been plenty of views on the (Balkan) Dardanians. Here's Papazoglou's view in 'The Central Balkan Tribes in pre-Roman Tribes', after summarizing the various views expressed before her and a lengthy look into the ancient characterization of the Dardanians (sometimes as Illyrians, others as distinct from them but she considers that to have been in a 'political' rather than 'ethnic/linguistic' sense) and the few onomastic and toponymic material that have come down to us:

The ancient authorities counted the Dardanians among the Illyrians. Judging by linguistic remains, the Illyrian element played a rather decisive part in forming the Dardanian ethnos. Considerable masses of a Thracian population were included in the Dardanian community so that in historical times the eastern part of Dardania [ed: roughly the Scupi-Naissus line] had a markedly Thracian character. Political developments contributed to the differentiation of the Dardanians as a separate people

Ditto with the ancient Epirotes. Here are some recent views on the ancient Epirotes spanning the breadth of possibilities but that generally agree with the predominant Northwest Greek character of the onomastic and epigraphic remains.

N.G.L. Hammond in The Oxford Classical Dictionary 2nd and 3rd Ed. respectively, under Epirus:

...fourteen Epirote tribes, probably of Dorian and Illyrian stocks.

...fourteen Epirote tribes, speakers of a strong West-greek dialect.

William Bowden in Wiley's The Ancient Encyclopedia of Ancient World History, under Epirus:

Despite Thucydides describing them as barbaroi (2.68.5), it seems certain that the language spoken by these tribes was a dialect of Greek (an issue that has caused considerable dispute in relation to the modern geopolitics of the region).

Daniel Strauch in Brill's New Pauly, under Epirus:

Ancient authors saw the inhabitants of E. as bárbaroi...However, there was an early Hellenization of the elite, the inhabitants of the coastal towns, and also the sanctuaries. The original language is unknown; rare early written evidence from Dodona shows Corinthian letters with local (?) deviations, the earliest (longer) inscriptions of c. 380 BC are written in a north-west Greek dialect.

In general, it seems that the Dardanians were an Illyrian-speaking population in whose area in the Easternmost parts the Thracian element became predominant over time, while the Epirotes, whatever their 'original' language, seem to have adopted Northwest Greek at least by the early 4th century BC and visited by theorodokoi starting around the same period. It's true that they didn't fit in quite well in the "Greek proper" concept of ethnicity (see Malkin and Hall's work on that) but we don't have an emic view of the Illyrians and the Dardanians in the first place. Of course perfect linguistic and ethnic 'purity' should probably not be sought in all those borderland regions and the area of south Illyria with cities like Dimale and Byllis shows that well.
 
Hello, I don't think that there is any proof of J2b spilled in Troy, clearly the proof will not be found in Homer.
 
If Epirotans were not Greek related why then Dodona was the second most sacred place in Greece after the Delphi?

Can someone explain this then? If Epirotans were not relevant with the Greeks, then they were people of their own. Perhaps Epirotans were actually the Dorians.

And recall, Epirotans take their ancestry from Neoptolemos (son of Achilles). All of these things mean something ...

Illyrians and Epirotans had a connection, as they were neighbors. It is well-known that Pyrrhus and his family was saved by the Illyrian king Glaukias. He also had an Illyrian woman, among others.

... so make love, no war ... :innocent:

P.S. The Greek cities of Magna Graecia asked Pyrrhus to help them. That is, they asked fellow Greeks to help them. Plus, do not go far away y'all. Epirotan names are all Greek. It is also possible that the name Hellenes/Hellas comes from Epirus as well. Case closed.
 

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