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Thread: J2b as an IE lineages of the ancient Illyrians & Mycenaeans

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    nothing

    I keep silent.

    reading stupid propganda lies,
    that even those who wrote it do not believe it
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
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    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

    Εχε υπομονη Ηρωα
    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

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    Ok I do not want another infraction

    but it has gone too far

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    I hope I'm not adding any fuel to fires around here...

    There have been plenty of views on the (Balkan) Dardanians. Here's Papazoglou's view in 'The Central Balkan Tribes in pre-Roman Tribes', after summarizing the various views expressed before her and a lengthy look into the ancient characterization of the Dardanians (sometimes as Illyrians, others as distinct from them but she considers that to have been in a 'political' rather than 'ethnic/linguistic' sense) and the few onomastic and toponymic material that have come down to us:

    The ancient authorities counted the Dardanians among the Illyrians. Judging by linguistic remains, the Illyrian element played a rather decisive part in forming the Dardanian ethnos. Considerable masses of a Thracian population were included in the Dardanian community so that in historical times the eastern part of Dardania [ed: roughly the Scupi-Naissus line] had a markedly Thracian character. Political developments contributed to the differentiation of the Dardanians as a separate people
    Ditto with the ancient Epirotes. Here are some recent views on the ancient Epirotes spanning the breadth of possibilities but that generally agree with the predominant Northwest Greek character of the onomastic and epigraphic remains.

    N.G.L. Hammond in The Oxford Classical Dictionary 2nd and 3rd Ed. respectively, under Epirus:

    ...fourteen Epirote tribes, probably of Dorian and Illyrian stocks.
    ...fourteen Epirote tribes, speakers of a strong West-greek dialect.
    William Bowden in Wiley's The Ancient Encyclopedia of Ancient World History, under Epirus:

    Despite Thucydides describing them as barbaroi (2.68.5), it seems certain that the language spoken by these tribes was a dialect of Greek (an issue that has caused considerable dispute in relation to the modern geopolitics of the region).
    Daniel Strauch in Brill's New Pauly, under Epirus:

    Ancient authors saw the inhabitants of E. as bárbaroi...However, there was an early Hellenization of the elite, the inhabitants of the coastal towns, and also the sanctuaries. The original language is unknown; rare early written evidence from Dodona shows Corinthian letters with local (?) deviations, the earliest (longer) inscriptions of c. 380 BC are written in a north-west Greek dialect.
    In general, it seems that the Dardanians were an Illyrian-speaking population in whose area in the Easternmost parts the Thracian element became predominant over time, while the Epirotes, whatever their 'original' language, seem to have adopted Northwest Greek at least by the early 4th century BC and visited by theorodokoi starting around the same period. It's true that they didn't fit in quite well in the "Greek proper" concept of ethnicity (see Malkin and Hall's work on that) but we don't have an emic view of the Illyrians and the Dardanians in the first place. Of course perfect linguistic and ethnic 'purity' should probably not be sought in all those borderland regions and the area of south Illyria with cities like Dimale and Byllis shows that well.

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    Hello, I don't think that there is any proof of J2b spilled in Troy, clearly the proof will not be found in Homer.

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    If Epirotans were not Greek related why then Dodona was the second most sacred place in Greece after the Delphi?

    Can someone explain this then? If Epirotans were not relevant with the Greeks, then they were people of their own. Perhaps Epirotans were actually the Dorians.

    And recall, Epirotans take their ancestry from Neoptolemos (son of Achilles). All of these things mean something ...

    Illyrians and Epirotans had a connection, as they were neighbors. It is well-known that Pyrrhus and his family was saved by the Illyrian king Glaukias. He also had an Illyrian woman, among others.

    ... so make love, no war ...

    P.S. The Greek cities of Magna Graecia asked Pyrrhus to help them. That is, they asked fellow Greeks to help them. Plus, do not go far away y'all. Epirotan names are all Greek. It is also possible that the name Hellenes/Hellas comes from Epirus as well. Case closed.

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    We will find a way bruv. Worry not ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    Ok I do not want another infraction

    but it has gone too far

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    I really don't think so. J2b(1 or 2) likely arrived with the Iran_CHL type of component in the Bronze Age with the wave of city builders out of Mesopotamia. I'm not exactly sure how they wound up in southern Italy and the Balkans, but this appears to be the case since this component is also found in the Levant around the same period. Unless we are assuming the ancient Mesopotamians were Indo-European speaking, I don't see how this paper can possibly argue these were IE speakers.

    I suppose one might think I keep spewing R1b centered rants, but if the Illyrian language came from the NW Balkans, the prime candidate is R1b-CTS9219, since the phylogenetic tree of this branch in eastern Europe actually supports a west to east movement into the steppes on further scrutiny.... Perhaps Mycenaean and Illyrians were just early offshoots of Proto-Italo-Celtic people. Of course, the neolithic people of the Aegean islands were already EEF and Middle Eastern in origin. I don't think we can debate this.

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    so the J2b and the E-V13 were IE. It makes sense to me but there is one question that i have.The albanians ghegs seems to have the most sardinian like dna in the balkans according to the:"Ancient and recent admixture layers in Sicily and Southern Italy trace multiple migration routes along the Mediterranean" paper but in the same time they seem to have the highest E-V13and J2b.I know that y-dna and autosomal dna do not always coincide, but it would be more fluent as a theory if they did.In this case we must assume that the illyrians married with EEF women propagating their y-dna and in the same time maintaining a strong EEF component in their autosomal dna, and then staying isolated while the tosks were influenced by greek or some other kind of balkan or slavic dna both in Y and in autosomal dna.
    I do not know if you have some better explanation?

    finally for the epirotans identity
    Attachment 8759
    an epirotan coin

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron1981 View Post
    I really don't think so. J2b(1 or 2) likely arrived with the Iran_CHL type of component in the Bronze Age with the wave of city builders out of Mesopotamia. I'm not exactly sure how they wound up in southern Italy and the Balkans, but this appears to be the case since this component is also found in the Levant around the same period. Unless we are assuming the ancient Mesopotamians were Indo-European speaking, I don't see how this paper can possibly argue these were IE speakers
    This is probably true, especially for J2b1-M205, which so far has been found twice in aDNA from the Levant area, and nothing from Europe yet.

    J2b2a-L283 which is the actual sample found in Bronze Age Croatia, might be a different story, as it has also been found in LBA Armenia. So, by the Chalcolithic or EBA, it could've easily made itself around the eastern shores of the Black Sea, assuming it wasn't already in the Balkans/Europe by that time.

    The problem most people have with J2b is that they tend to lump it together, without looking at its branches, which besides splits that date to the Mesolithic, they have different geographical distributions. J2b-M102 split into J2b1 and J2b2 ca.15,900 ybp, and the branch that has the highest diversity in the Balkans/Europe is J2b2a-L283 (now found in Bronze Age ancient DNA context there).
    Last edited by Trojet; 04-06-17 at 02:03.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    J2b2 is probably not from the Steppe, as the steppe aDNA is not high enough to give a 100% estimation. It may have absorbed rich Steppe-populations but I am 100% sure it was in the Central Europe-Balkan area for quite a long while.

    And as Trojet mentioned, the J2b2 samples found in the Steppe-Volga are younger and suggest an expansion from the Balkans to the Steppe, just like R1b-L23 did with Yamnaya from Central/South East Europe to the Steppe & Anatolia-Armenia-Mesopotamia.

    One J2b2 sample TMRCA of 1700BC in the deep Croatian hinterland gives strong hints of the haplotype dwelling in the Dinaric highlands for a long time, since the Neolithic or EBA most likely.
    Since J has been found in Mesolithic Karelia I am not ruling out European Mesolithic continuity in J2b2.

    Remember, the woman was also part steppe-admixed which implies they might have absorbed some steppe population later on with Indo-European source through maternal line.

    J2b2 clades have also been found in Sardinia and these people have virtually zero steppe ancestry.
    Last edited by Fatherland; 08-06-17 at 19:27.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    I will just leave this here:

    In all of Eastern Europe - Albanian Ghegs, followed by Tosks score the highest Atlanto-Mediterranean admixture, which strongly suggests a great bit of our ancestors arrived from the West with Occitan-like components.

    People are really ignorant, but Albanians, particularly Ghegides are the most Western-shifted population out of the entire Balkans.


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    1 members found this post helpful.
    People need to learn about the difference between J2b-M205 (J2b1) and J2b-M241 (J2b2), and that there is certainly nothing Indo-European about the former.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fatherland View Post
    I will just leave this here:

    In all of Eastern Europe - Albanian Ghegs, followed by Tosks score the highest Atlanto-Mediterranean admixture, which strongly suggests a great bit of our ancestors arrived from the West with Occitan-like components.

    People are really ignorant, but Albanians, particularly Ghegides are the most Western-shifted population out of the entire Balkans.
    I agree. I have thought that R1b-L51(xP311) can be Norman. That is 12% of Gheg Y-DNA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by A. Papadimitriou View Post
    I agree. I have thought that R1b-L51(xP311) can be Norman. That is 12% of Gheg Y-DNA.
    I1-L22>P109 in the Balkans is related to the Normans.

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    Well Chalkokondyles said that Albanians came with general Maniakes,so if there's a Norman haplogroups among them nothing strange.
    What is confusing me is the recent grouping of Albanian language with Germanic languages.

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    ^Except they did not. Albanian ancestors(Illyrians) were allover the Western Balkans before the masses of Slavic migrations.

    And these were way more Western-shifted than the Slavic inhabitants of the Western Balkans today.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fatherland View Post
    I will just leave this here:

    In all of Eastern Europe - Albanian Ghegs, followed by Tosks score the highest Atlanto-Mediterranean admixture, which strongly suggests a great bit of our ancestors arrived from the West with Occitan-like components.

    People are really ignorant, but Albanians, particularly Ghegides are the most Western-shifted population out of the entire Balkans.
    You might want to put all facts together: albanians have an extremely high IBD rate starting from 1500 years ago (and coinciding with the slavic expansions). That means a near-extinction event. What survived the event did not have the same genetic components as of before, but only a reduced portion.
    So I would be careful in connecting actual genetics with the past ones, especially if there was a recent near-extinction event. What I am trying to say is that we don't know how the albanian genetics looked 100 years before the slavic arrival.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bergin View Post
    You might want to put all facts together: albanians have an extremely high IBD rate starting from 1500 years ago (and coinciding with the slavic expansions). That means a near-extinction event. What survived the event did not have the same genetic components as of before, but only a reduced portion.
    So I would be careful in connecting actual genetics with the past ones, especially if there was a recent near-extinction event. What I am trying to say is that we don't know how the albanian genetics looked 100 years before the slavic arrival.
    There is a Bronze Age Montenegrin sample(unknown y-dna, probably female sample) plotting right with the modern Ghegs. That is the cold hard fact, Ghegs have barely changed in terms of aDNA since the Bronze Age.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milan.M View Post
    Well Chalkokondyles said that Albanians came with general Maniakes,so if there's a Norman haplogroups among them nothing strange.
    What is confusing me is the recent grouping of Albanian language with Germanic languages.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin...Italian_theory

    Obsolete theory.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fustan View Post
    I1-L22>P109 in the Balkans is related to the Normans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bergin View Post
    You might want to put all facts together: albanians have an extremely high IBD rate starting from 1500 years ago (and coinciding with the slavic expansions). That means a near-extinction event. What survived the event did not have the same genetic components as of before, but only a reduced portion.
    So I would be careful in connecting actual genetics with the past ones, especially if there was a recent near-extinction event. What I am trying to say is that we don't know how the albanian genetics looked 100 years before the slavic arrival.

    Bergin +1 from me

    That is good point to start
    no matter I have arqued many times with Albanians here in forum,
    I love such trully scientific ideas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post

    Bergin +1 from me

    That is good point to start
    no matter I have arqued many times with Albanians here in forum,
    I love such trully scientific ideas.
    Greek Macedonians are largely of Slavic ancestry R1a and I2a1b of 50-60% frequency. It is even higher than many of the Slavic inhabitants of Republic of Macedonia.

    I wouldn't really stick my nose into everything if I was a Greek with Slavic medieval newcomer ancestry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milan.M View Post
    Well Chalkokondyles said that Albanians came with general Maniakes,so if there's a Norman haplogroups among them nothing strange.
    What is confusing me is the recent grouping of Albanian language with Germanic languages.

    Milan the Maniakis theory has nothing to do with Normands,
    but with East Roman empire army,


    the Normands in Albania are connected mainly with crusaders and Latinocracy
    and the state of Anju,
    yet there is an argue for Anju to be Cumans

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fatherland View Post
    Greek Macedonians are largely of Slavic ancestry R1a and I2a1b of 50-60% frequency. It is even higher than many of the Slavic inhabitants of Republic of Macedonia.

    I wouldn't really stick my nose into everything if I was a Greek with Slavic medieval newcomer ancestry.

    Thank you.
    but I will not follow your advice,
    AND I NEITHER SHARE YOUR THOUGHTS

    I suggest personally to you, to search how Greek you are,
    especially in PC's.
    (and strongly recomended if you have A+ type of blood)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    Thank you.
    but I will not follow your advice,
    AND I NEITHER SHARE YOUR THOUGHTS

    I suggest personally to you, to search how Greek you are,
    especially in PC's
    There's nothing Greek about Albanians, especially north Albanians (Ghegides) which is what me and Fatherland are.
    But I can tell you that there is plenty of Albanian things about Greeks, and Y-DNA influence is one of them.

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