J2b as an IE lineages of the ancient Illyrians & Mycenaeans

I agree. I have thought that R1b-L51(xP311) can be Norman. That is 12% of Gheg Y-DNA.

Wrong, it varies in Ghegs between 18-27%. It's Yamnaya/Proto-Yamnaya extraction. Also slightly elevated in some parts of Peloponnese.

Haplogroup_R1b-borders.png
 
Wrong, it varies in Ghegs between 18-27%. It's Yamnaya/Proto-Yamnaya extraction. Also slightly elevated in some parts of Peloponnese.

Haplogroup_R1b-borders.png

That Eupedia map is for all of R1b.
 
That Eupedia map is for all of R1b.
99% of the R1b in Albanian is of the Yamnaya/Proto-Yamnaya clade.

Anything else would be the Western clades.
 
Wrong. It plots between Albanians and Bulgarians. So it's more Eastern shifted than contemporary Albanians, yet within the Albanian spectrum. And we are not even taking into amount many modern Albanians who are shifted towards that direction too that have been shown on other PCA maps apart from this one.

Not even close to North Italians/Iberians.

Those samples are projected on the PCA you're showing which pulls them closer to the center (0, 0) which is precisely where Albanians, Greeks and Bulgarians are on that PCA. A non-projected PCA would show them clustering somewhere between North Italians and Iberians. There have been studies showing this projection bias. You can also tell by the fact that this PCA is showing for example various Neolithic samples clustering close to Sicilians and Greeks even though we know they should be much closer to Sardinians.

Either way those samples are so low quality that apparently not many tests can be reliably run on them. But the rest of the sampled Bronze-Iron Age Balkans so far seem to differ somewhat from contemporary Albanians and Greeks (let alone the more Slavic-influenced populations) as well. We still need to actually sample Albania, Greece and the Aegean to have a clear picture but for the time being, it doesn't seem that you are quite correct about this. All the populations of the Balkans seem to have changed a tad since the Bronze-Iron ages.
 
Albanian language fits everywhere. I think it could be that Illyrian language was a survivor of proto-European language who gave birth to every other European language. Other words our language still is the closest possible to the original language who was spoken before the languages become Germanic, slavic, romance,Greek,Armenian. It fits equally in every group, satem or centum

the new video by andrew garrett and david reich has albanian branching off form ancient germanic .............this video is only a month old and that is the current theory

garrett is a linguistic specialist and reich a genetic specialist...they have combined for this video
 
the new video by andrew garrett and david reich has albanian branching off form ancient germanic .............this video is only a month old and that is the current theory

garrett is a linguistic specialist and reich a genetic specialist...they have combined for this video

Well, with all the respect and if you don't doubt the age of albanian language ....
it mostly means that germanic languagea are albanian (you cannot give birth to something older, can you?), which i doubt.
Maybe it means that proto albanian and proto germanic minimise certain algorithms, similarly you shuld envision a world of proto celto-italic afine to proto-balto-slavic.

very hard to conclude.
but the interpretation should always be that we all spoke the same language and that one way or the other it split up contiously. using actual languages as if they came up in parallel is not going to help you
 
the new video by andrew garrett and david reich has albanian branching off form ancient germanic .............this video is only a month old and that is the current theory

garrett is a linguistic specialist and reich a genetic specialist...they have combined for this video

Proto-Ilyrians came from Hallstatt so it makes sense. They migrated into the Balkans and mingled with an indigenous population. It used to be grouped together with Germanic and Balto-Slavic.
 
Astonishing theories (Germanic, Albanian...). We need Sanctus Taranis (LOL). Personally I have some difficulty to link Albanian to Germanic, or the contrary...? But my knowledge is short here. Concerning Illyrians, we are in the fog; maybe one of these relatively short life group: a more or less tight grouping of some meta-Italic tribes and Dacian-Moesian-Thracian affiliated tribes (not exactly but tribes speaking a language issued from the same proto-language)?.
 
Genetically, we also see a big wave coming to Balkans from CA/BA Anatolia and Armenia, bringing a lot of Caucasian admixture. It should mean something, like appearance of some BA tribes in Balkans. Who were day? I think, these were the Greek tribes, later pushed into Greece by Late BA and IA wave of new arrivals from North, like Thracians and alike.

LeBrok, do you know the names of Balkan prehistoric cultures that received this big wave of people from CA/BA Anatolia and Armenia, bringing a lot of Caucasian admixtures?
 
LeBrok, do you know the names of Balkan prehistoric cultures that received this big wave of people from CA/BA Anatolia and Armenia, bringing a lot of Caucasian admixtures?
No, I don't, I was merely theorising on base of increased caucasian admixture during BA in Balkans. All I know it is a Bronze Age change, a profound change that only huge invasions/migrations from Anatolia/Armenia can explain. At this stage I'm open to yours and others suggestions. Notable is the fact that BA Armenia was also rich in steppe admixture, and this admixture went somewhere, because it doesn't exist today in Armenia and not much in Turkey. The simplest explanation is that it moved into Balkans, and also in Italy. I have no idea though if this was IE invasion or not. I'm just leaning to the idea that Greeks IE tribes, were the ones mediated through Anatolia, and Late Bronze Age migration fits the bill.
Off course it could be the case that not Anatolian movement was IEs. BA Armenians could have been IEs, but not the BA Anatolia. So early BA and mid BA migration from Anatolia wasn't IE, but later BA from Armenia was.
The fun is to figure it out in the future. We should also mind that BA Armenia might nothing to do with today's Armenia, it's about naming of geographical location.
 
No, I don't, I was merely theorising on base of increased caucasian admixture during BA in Balkans. All I know it is a Bronze Age change, a profound change that only huge invasions/migrations from Anatolia/Armenia can explain. At this stage I'm open to yours and others suggestions. Notable is the fact that BA Armenia was also rich in steppe admixture, and this admixture went somewhere, because it doesn't exist today in Armenia and not much in Turkey. The simplest explanation is that it moved into Balkans, and also in Italy. I have no idea though if this was IE invasion or not. I'm just leaning to the idea that Greeks IE tribes, were the ones mediated through Anatolia, and Late Bronze Age migration fits the bill.
Off course it could be the case that not Anatolian movement was IEs. BA Armenians could have been IEs, but not the BA Anatolia. So early BA and mid BA migration from Anatolia wasn't IE, but later BA from Armenia was.
The fun is to figure it out in the future. We should also mind that BA Armenia might nothing to do with today's Armenia, it's about naming of geographical location.

Bronze/Chalcolithic movements from Anatolia/Caucasus/Armenia up to Greece and the south of the Balkans, and then suddenly from there to Italy and the rest of the Balkans are plausible, and probably supported by archaeological evidence. Migrations of people who increased the Caucasian/CHG-like admixture. With regard to Italy it is possible that there were movements from Epirus and North of Greece to southern Italy, and from southern Italy to the rest of the country, following a south-north gradient, more north you go in Italy, more the impact of these migrations becomes less strong. In the thread on the last paper about southern Italy, we had started talking about that but then we were overwhelmed and distracted by the usual discussions.
 
No, I don't, I was merely theorising on base of increased caucasian admixture during BA in Balkans. All I know it is a Bronze Age change, a profound change that only huge invasions/migrations from Anatolia/Armenia can explain. At this stage I'm open to yours and others suggestions. Notable is the fact that BA Armenia was also rich in steppe admixture, and this admixture went somewhere, because it doesn't exist today in Armenia and not much in Turkey. The simplest explanation is that it moved into Balkans, and also in Italy. I have no idea though if this was IE invasion or not. I'm just leaning to the idea that Greeks IE tribes, were the ones mediated through Anatolia, and Late Bronze Age migration fits the bill.
Off course it could be the case that not Anatolian movement was IEs. BA Armenians could have been IEs, but not the BA Anatolia. So early BA and mid BA migration from Anatolia wasn't IE, but later BA from Armenia was.
The fun is to figure it out in the future. We should also mind that BA Armenia might nothing to do with today's Armenia, it's about naming of geographical location.
hmmm .. I don't know, but I don't think there is much phylogenetic evidence for Greek tribes arriving from Caucasus in later BA, what I mean by that is the two haplogroups we think might be associated with proto Greek (E-V13 and R1b-CTS9219 downstream of Z2103) don't have diversity in Caucasus, If I remember right, not all subclades of E-V13 are in the Balkans, most are scattered in central Europe and some east and some west, the same situation for R1b-CTS9219, a deeper subclade of this is R1b-BY611, is definitely a Balkan group, the other branches of CTS9219 are in similar fashion to E-V13 clades mostly central European.

So Greeks probably came from the north not the east.

The increase in Caucasian admixture probably happened earlier, maybe the early BA or CA, the only Caucasian expanding people were Kura Araxians, but their culture never reached the Balkans, and I feel we're empowering it too much, it's really a mysterious gap in prehistory.

The decrease in steppe admixture in late BA Armenia could be associated with a migration, Arame's post in another thread describes it better
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...1b-Z2103/page2?p=502609&viewfull=1#post502609
 
There are potential movements (the cultural exchange is a given, either way, especially by Mycenaean times) that can connect parts of Greece with Bronze Age Anatolia. I'm not entirely sure about the rest of the Balkans and Tuscany, though parts of Italy show a similar -ss- and -nt- toponymical substratum as potentially the one that connects Greece with Anatolia (and if it is a Bronze Age rather than an earlier one). Someone else will have to point out if the connections between Italy and the Aegean/Greece look like potential movements rather than just trade and cultural exchange at that point in time. I suppose Pax Augusta thinks so.

Of course there are also plenty of historical events that unite those regions so perhaps this change was very gradual and/or happened at different rates in different regions.

We'll see soon I suppose. Italy and the south Balkans are both unsampled for the relevant period.
 
hmmm .. I don't know, but I don't think there is much phylogenetic evidence for Greek tribes arriving from Caucasus in later BA, what I mean by that is the two haplogroups we think might be associated with proto Greek (E-V13 and R1b-CTS9219 downstream of Z2103) don't have diversity in Caucasus, If I remember right, not all subclades of E-V13 are in the Balkans, most are scattered in central Europe and some east and some west, the same situation for R1b-CTS9219, a deeper subclade of this is R1b-BY611, is definitely a Balkan group, the other branches of CTS9219 are in similar fashion to E-V13 clades mostly central European.
I don't know much about specific subclades to connect them to possible migration.

So Greeks probably came from the north not the east.

The increase in Caucasian admixture probably happened earlier, maybe the early BA or CA, the only Caucasian expanding people were Kura Araxians, but their culture never reached the Balkans, and I feel we're empowering it too much, it's really a mysterious gap in prehistory.
I don't think, it necessarily needs to be connected to any of big cultures expansion. Could have been conglomeration of smaller tribes and ethnic groups in Anatolia being pushed into Balkans by incoming others, maybe from Steppe or Iran, or climatic factors. Or long steady trickle of people through entire Bronze Age.
We see many times, through history, movements of people happening through Anatolia into Balkans from East to West, but very rarely (only Macedonian Greeks) from West to East.
 
I will tent to agree with the logic. Yet I think that a single J2b2 in croatia, and the autosomal of a montenegrim BA, is insufficient to support the idea beyond reasonable doubt. I think that further investigation might prove you right (like 3-10 J2b2 and others).

Same goes for my comment regarding the high IBD of 1500 years ago: maybe J2b2 was in much larger density before, or maybe G2a got completely wiped out. we need data to tell us.

I will also remind you to take it a bit more easy with your personal 'glory' of illyrian J2b2:
- Would an Albanian with R1a or J2b1 be less Albanian than you? I just ordered the Living Dna test and maybe I will be one of those....

good night.

J2b+j2a are early farmers. As such not Illyrians, probably Pellazg. R1a are the indoEuropeans who brought the Illyrian language, whom Alvanos identify with, as such the real Illyrians. R1a is associated with the domestication of horses and probably with the invention of the wheel,as such a lot more agile people who could travel long distances and carry their belongings with them. After they settled and mixed with early farmers Illyrian, the language of R1a become dominant and everyone called themselves Illyrian from that point in time and on.
 
J2b+j2a are early farmers. As such not Illyrians, probably Pellazg. R1a are the indoEuropeans who brought the Illyrian language, whom Alvanos identify with, as such the real Illyrians. R1a is associated with the domestication of horses and probably with the invention of the wheel,as such a lot more agile people who could travel long distances and carry their belongings with them. After they settled and mixed with early farmers Illyrian, the language of R1a become dominant and everyone called themselves Illyrian from that point in time and on.
There are many fallacies in your theories.

No J2b2 aDNA was yet to be found among farmers. Movements of haplogroups was more complex than this theory of yours.

Illyrians were R1b, not R1a. Literally no R1a-carriers entered the mountains until the Slavs.
During the Indo-European movements, R1a-carriers always kept to the lowlands/plains.


Haplogroups that became Illyrians:

1749036.png
 
There are many fallacies in your theories.

No J2b2 aDNA was yet to be found among farmers. Movements of haplogroups was more complex than this theory of yours.

Illyrians were R1b, not R1a. Literally no R1a-carriers entered the mountains until the Slavs.
During the Indo-European movements, R1a-carriers always kept to the lowlands/plains.


Haplogroups that became Illyrians:

1749036.png
Tracing the genetic ancestry of 200 undergraduate students

By Doctor Spenser Wells min 26 off the video. See the video. Dr Spenser says otherwise
 
Tracing the genetic ancestry of 200 undergraduate students

By Doctor Spenser Wells min 26 off the video. See the video. Dr Spenser says otherwise

That video is from 2011. Based on old, outdated information. They are using sample finds spanning from the year 2000 when haplogroup research was still primitive.

You are 6 years too late. As I said: No J2b2 among Neolithic farmers.

Farmers were predominantly G2a from Anatolia.
 
@DuPidh

It appears your arguments are all based on that Albanians are Pelasgians, which is completely wrong and is actually considered an obsolete theory.

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Albanians#Pelasgian_theory

I did not say Albanians are Pellzg. Pellasgoi were a pre-Illyrian population who inhabited Albanian territories. The name Lissus is Pellazg. So is Larissa. Its documented by Greeks. Pellasgoi are relatively recent people. After Illyrians came eventually Pellasg people of Albania were assimilated and eventually became Ilyrians. So Pellasgoi are a pre- Illyrian, pre-hellen people probably inhabitants of most of Italy. Don't you think that Etrusca. were also Pellasg related people. Thats why Albanain genes are classified under Italy/Greece grouping as the legacy of common pellazg ancestry
 

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