J2b as an IE lineages of the ancient Illyrians & Mycenaeans

[Balkanite]

What Sile is trying to convince you about that video by Garret and Reich is one huge lie and distortion of the speech. I KNOW he hasnt even seen it. You know why? Because i saw it, and they only bring up that language tree(albanian brnaching of germanic) as an example of how a language tree looks like. He points out EXPLICITLY that he does not know if that tree is more correct than the thousands of other language trees which have been proposed through the centuries. I even posted a link to that Reich and Garret meeting at the post about the video. If Sile had watched the speech he would have known that. But he would obviously rather just post something completely out of context, and mislead several other posters. Go watch it and you can see how Sile was just distorting things.


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[Bergin]

I even posted a link to that Reich and Garret meeting at the post about the video.

Can you please resent the link to that video, I missed it in the mayhem. Thanks

[Balkanite]

Of course :)
Here you go,
http://www.ustream.tv/channel/aps-meeting

Make sure it is the one from 29 april(the link should be correct though). The date will show up on one of the first PowerPoint slides.
And also skip a few minutes pg the video, because if i remember correctly there is just blank screen for the first few minutes.



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[blevins13]

Very interesting


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[Fatherland]

Could we get a J2b2 map done? I see there is a J2b1 one.

But since J2b2-L283 only exists in Europe it would be interesting to see this.

[Garrick]

J2b2-L283 is only found among Europeans so far, Ancient and Modern, so it has its core here.

No. You can see J-Z597* is found in Lebanon (LBN, LB-JL, Mount Lebanon).



About origin J2b2 M241, probably it is Southern Anatolia/Northern Near East. From that area, probably via Caucasus, its carriers arrived to Russia, and after that to the Carpathians and Balkans. Although there are authors who claim another path to Balkans via Anatolia and Bosphorus.

[Fatherland]

No. You can see J-Z597* is found in Lebanon (LBN, LB-JL, Mount Lebanon).



About origin J2b2 M241, probably it is Southern Anatolia/Northern Near East. From that area, probably via Caucasus, its carriers arrived to Russia, and after that to the Carpathians and Balkans. Although there are authors who claim another path to Balkans via Anatolia and Bosphorus.

That is not the one we are discussing about, you sneaky one, this is:

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-L283/



Downrated due to your lack of providing anything meaningful to a discussion.

Garrick tried to fool people 1599 times now.

[Leka]

No. You can see J-Z597* is found in Lebanon (LBN, LB-JL, Mount Lebanon).



About origin J2b2 M241, probably it is Southern Anatolia/Northern Near East. From that area, probably via Caucasus, its carriers arrived to Russia, and after that to the Carpathians and Balkans. Although there are authors who claim another path to Balkans via Anatolia and Bosphorus.

Most likely a European settler. L283 samples that are Z585-, all within Europe:

[Garrick]

@Fatherland

No. You are wrong.

And you should appreciate authors who claim that J2b2 M41 came via Anatolia and Bosphorus to the Balkans.

There were two paths, via Caucasus and Russia and Carpathians and via Anatolia and Bosphours.

What is interesting yet, there are respectable authors who claim that Illyrians came to the Balkans via Bosphorus.

[Fatherland]

Double Post

[Fatherland]

@Fatherland

No. You are wrong.

And you should appreciate authors who claim that J2b2 M41 came via Anatolia and Bosphorus to the Balkans.

There were two paths, via Caucasus and Russia and Carpathians and via Anatolia and Bosphours.

What is interesting yet, there are respectable authors who claim that Illyrians came to the Balkans via Bosphorus.

J2b2-L283 as you can see in the post above you is only upstreams in Europe and Europe only.

For all the offensive and absurd remarks you have made in your vast number of 1,458 posts should be more than enough to keep you locked in a dungeon and the key thrown away.

[Garrick]

J2b2-L283 as you can see in the post above you is only upstreams in Europe and Europe only.

For all the offensive and absurd remarks you have made in your vast number of 1,458 posts should be more than enough to keep you locked in a dungeon and the key thrown away.

No Fatherelend. Your try to discredit me is illusion, there is no real reason to do this.

Readers understand what I speak. There are at least two possible direction of entering to the Balkans. I don't speak if one of them or both are correct or no. Things are more complex in relation to the attempt of trivialization.

[Fatherland]

No Fatherelend. Your try to discredit me is illusion, there is no real reason to do this.

Readers understand what I speak. There are at least two possible direction of entering to the Balkans. I don't speak if one of them or both are correct or no. Things are more complex in relation to the attempt of trivialization.

It is only complex when you are trying to make it so through deceitful measures.

Things are more simple than they ever were, now with access to Ancient genomes.

[Garrick]

It is only complex when you are trying to make it so through deceitful measures.

Things are more simple than they ever were, now with access to Ancient genomes.

You will learn. Trivialization is big mistake overall not only here, this is well-intentioned.

It is clear that this haplogroup is mostly in Europe and Russia, especially older lineages in Itally. But you can see it is found in several other places. It means it could move in different directions. And of course from Europe and Russia there, it is possible too, not only toward Europe. Directions of movements can be diverse.

For me is mostly interesting which European cultures in past from Russian steppe to cultures to the start of new era can be associated with this lineage.

[Garrick]

@Leka
Nobody challenged that.
However it is confirmed presence of the L283 out of Europe (Middle East, one sample Ancient Armenia, etc).
Surely there are many possibilities, people are moving in all directions.
But direction of movement J2b2-L283 carriers from Russia probably was back via Caucasus and Anatolia and Bosphours to Balkans or after Caucasus, and part of Anatolia, across sea.

[Bergin]

However it is confirmed presence of the L283 out of Europe (Middle East, one sample Ancient Armenia, etc).

Is there a source for this? It is important

[Nik]

@Garrick

Your reputation for being sneaky and deceitful while hiding under the umbrella of a calm and civilized person is established enough to make everyone doubt your statements.

Weren't you shown in another topic that L283 was a European marker few days back?

And does the confirmed presence outside Europe really mean so much to you? Don't tell me it's part of your sneaky theory of how Albanians come from Caucasus.

Funny how you called all 3 ancient samples from Croatia as anything but Illyrian. I bet if they find I2a-Din in Iron Age Kurdistan you will call it a Thracian marker left from Alexander's troops, as long as it fits your agenda.

[Garrick]

@Garrick

Your reputation for being sneaky and deceitful while hiding under the umbrella of a calm and civilized person is established enough to make everyone doubt your statements.

Weren't you shown in another topic that L283 was a European marker few days back?

And does the confirmed presence outside Europe really mean so much to you? Don't tell me it's part of your sneaky theory of how Albanians come from Caucasus.

Funny how you called all 3 ancient samples from Croatia as anything but Illyrian. I bet if they find I2a-Din in Iron Age Kurdistan you will call it a Thracian marker left from Alexander's troops, as long as it fits your agenda.

No. Your suspicion is that there is some "hidden intention" in my posts. It does not exist. Read carefully each of the several posts. In principle, there is no need to look for something where it does not exist.

[LABERIA]

@Fatherland

No. You are wrong.

And you should appreciate authors who claim that J2b2 M41 came via Anatolia and Bosphorus to the Balkans.

There were two paths, via Caucasus and Russia and Carpathians and via Anatolia and Bosphours.

What is interesting yet, there are respectable authors who claim that Illyrians came to the Balkans via Bosphorus.

Who are this respectable authors, can you quote some of them?
Because i know other respectable authors, like Bonfante for example who had this idea of Illyrians spreading on the opposed direction, from Balkans in the south east direction.

[Garrick]

@Garrick

Funny how you called all 3 ancient samples from Croatia as anything but Illyrian.

Illyrians didn't exist in the Balkans in 5485 BC. They were not in 2725 BC. So E-V13 (5485 BC) and R1b Z2103 (2725 BC) found in present day Croatia nothing to do with Illyrians.

About Illyrians we can speak they exist 1000 BC in the best case 1300 BC (different sources 1300-1000 BC).

Even proto-Illyrians (they are not yet Illyrians, it is difference) in the Balkans are 2000 BC, not before.

So only J2b2 L283 can be proto-Illyrian. But proto-Illyrians formed around Danube.

Maybe that J2b2 L283 has better explanation.

Mycenaeans developed complex trade network in Mediterranean since 17th till 11 century BC. They trade with several counties including Italy, from south to north. They probably brought J2b2 L283 in Italy and beyond, wherever they traded. In the isle of Brach was one of Mycenaean points. We can see isle of Brach is very near location in Veliki Vanik where J2b2 L283 is found.


It could be maybe Mycenaean origin.

[Fatherland]

Autosomal of the Bronze Age J2b2-L283 sample from Veliki Vanik



Orange: Yamnaya_Samara
Grey: Anatolia_Neolithic
Blue: WHG
Red: EHG

[blevins13]

The Iliad is an epic poem, composed around 800-725 B.C. and written down sometime between 725 and 675 B.C.

that's 1185BC to when it occurred, to when it is written , say 450 to 500 years after

It is very strange that people take seriously a poem that describes a beautiful story that happened 500 years before it was written......fairly tales are not historical facts.


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[Johane Derite]

In Appian's Roman History (Book 10 - Illyrian Wars), he describes what he knows of the origins of the Illyrians. This is chapter 1:

[Gash]

That Bronze Age Dalmatian was pretty identical to Albanians , it was just more Western / Northern shifted. the J2b2 sample will probably turn out the same. Seems like we mixed with a native population that shifted us more South and eventually maybe East and also possible some Iron Age people. This could be from genetics such as the one found in Bulgaria which was very South or the one e1b Neolithic found in Dalmatia. also Iron Age sample found in Montenegro that was very North East.

So seems like we were mostly Bronze Age invaders . The Ilyrians were believed to be mostly bronze age invaders, debunks Coon who claimed them as Iron Age invaders. I think he was wrong.

Its similarity with Italy is nothing unusual and we all get that. Its South Central Europe it scored on DNA LAND is basically Balkan as many Balkan people get that. Dna land isnt very good. and its just genetic similarity with Italy rather than ancestry . Same for Sardinian. And south west europe. the sample was basically 79% Balkan + 21 North West Europe. that North West Europe making it shift North West.

From what I gather , some of us haven't really changed that much. I remember a sample of late bronze age found in Montenegro that plotted with Bulgarians. It was more East than this other Bronze Age sample and more South possibly. It was even closer to us. Could it be that the one in Dalmatia was mixed with something or the other way around....

Some Southern shifted Albanians were closer to the sample found in Bulgaria due to Neolithic shared ancestry so such people haven't changed that much either. I don't believe it's a historical Thracian given its date. Almost looks genetically Neolithic.

Some other Iron Age samples from Bulgaria were plotting with Austrians basically. I believe they were of a later date . Thracians possibly formed from a mix of such genetics.