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Thread: J2b as an IE lineages of the ancient Illyrians & Mycenaeans

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    10 out of 10 members found this post helpful.

    Post J2b as an IE lineages of the ancient Illyrians & Mycenaeans

    The new paper on the Genomic History of Southeastern Europe by Mathieson et al. identified the first ancient J2b2 sample in Europe. This sample was found in Middle Bronze Age southern Croatia, at Veliki Vanik and dates from 1700-1500 BCE.

    It has been proposed by archeologists that the Illyrianisation of the Dinaric Alps took place from 1600 to 1100 BCE, so that fits the time frame.

    Two individuals from Veliki Vanik were tested and both possessed about one third of Steppe admixture and a few percents of EHG, the rest being EEF. Both individuals possessed typical Pontic-Caspian Steppe mtDNA (I1a1 and W3a) that could not be anything by Indo-European in origin. A third individual from Late Bronze Age northern Croatia was also tested and belonged to mtDNA HV0a.

    This is the first evidence we have of Indo-European lineages in Illyria prior to the Slavic migrations that replaced most of the male lineages by I2a-L147.2 and R1a (Z280 and M458) lineages.

    I have proposed for several years that J2b lineages came to Europe as minor Indo-European lineages. This is because both J2b1 and J2b2 are found at relatively high frequencies in the Volga-Ural region today (especially among the Mordvins, Chuvash and Tatars, who otherwise are very different genetically), and because both J2b1-M205 and J2b2a1-L283 have a TMRCA of respectively 5500 ybp and 5900 ybp, which corresponds to the late Khavlynsk period in the Steppe, just before the appearance of Yamna. Deeper clades of J2b2 underwent a major expansion exactly during the Yamna period. J2b2a1 subclades are consistently found at low frequencies (0.5 to 2%) in all places settled by the Indo-Europeans, although its frequency is much higher in Southeast Europe, including the historical region of Illyria (ex-Yugoslavia + Albania).

    J2b was obviously not the only Illyrian lineage. I have explained here that the large-scale Yamna migration that reached central and western Europe mostly bypassed the heavily settled Neolithic cultures of 'Old Europe' and followed the Danube until the Hungarian Plain. From there the main branch expanded to Bohemia and Germany, but another branch may have gone south to the Dinaric Alps. It is possible that the branch that colonised Illyria from 1600 BCE were late Steppe migrants from the Volga region, maybe pushed out of the Steppe by the northern R1a tribes of the Srubna cultures (from 2000 BCE). Through a founding effect, J2b2 lineages might have considerably increased its original frequency after reaching Illyria. Nowadays J2b is far more common in the Dinaric Alps than R1b, but it would be unthinkable that R1b lineages weren't also present among the original Illyrians, considering the time frame.

    More interestingly, the Dinaric Alps have an unusually high incidence of Y-haplogroup Q1a, especially on the Croatian island of Hvar (6%), which presumably acted as a refuge for the ancient Illyrian population after the Slavic migrations. If the Illyrians originated in the Volga-Ural region, it wouldn't be that surprising to find also Siberian lineages like Q1a, especially since Q1a has been attested in the Khvalynsk culture alongside R1a and R1b in the Samara region. So the origins of the Illyrians may be in a Middle Volga during the Khvalynsk period.

    Linguistically not much is known about the Illyrian language. It probably belonged to the Centum branch (linked to R1b-L23) but that is not even clear. If it originated in the Volga region, but was not R1a/Satem, that would explain why it is so different from the West Pontic Italo-Celtic and Germanic branches.





    Mycenaean J2b

    Additionally, J2b is also found at high frequency in Greece and in regions that used to be part of the ancient Greek world (Ionia, Magna Grecia). However it is almost absent from Crete (where J2a1 lineages are dominant). J2b was also not found among Neolithic Anatolian or European farmers, and is absent from central Anatolia. This suggests that J2b was not associated with the Neolithic Greeks nor with the Minoan civilisation, but may well have come to Greece with the Mycenaeans, who also appear to have been pushed out of the Steppe by the advance of the Srubna culture. That would give us both the Illyrians and the Mycenaeans (and who knows, maybe also the Albanians) as Middle-Late Bronze Age Steppe migrants to the Southeast Europe, in a migration that was particularly rich in J2b lineages from the Middle Volga region. That would explain why it has been so hard to identify R1a or R1b lineages that could be of Illyrian or Mycenaean origin. In fact, the only one that seems possible is R1b-Z2103.

    Could the Hittites and Armenians have left the Steppe around the same time as the Illyrians and Mycenaeans?

    It might be useful to put all this in the context of two other hotly debated historical migrations: those of the ancient Armenians and the Anatolian branch of IE speakers, including the Hittites. Both make their appearance in Armenia and Anatolia in this fateful period following the Srubna conquest of the Pontic-Caspian Steppe circa 2000 BCE, and like the Illyrians and Mycenaeans really make their entry on the political scene around 1600 BCE. How much of a coincidence is this that these four mysterious branches of Indo-Europeans all appear exactly at the same time out of nowhere? What's more, all four languages are difficult to classify in the IE tree, with Illyrian, Mycenaean Greek and Armenian that display both elements of Centum and Satem.

    As for the Anatolian branch, I originally thought that it was among the minority of early Steppe (Sredny Stog) invaders that took political power in some parts of the Balkans (probably Bulgaria) and remained there or in western Anatolia (e.g. Troy) for over 2000 years before really expanding across Anatolia. But since the Hittites suddenly show up around 1600 BCE with chariots, which were not invented until 2000 BCE in the Volga-Ural region, and did not spread fully across the Pontic Steppe (and Central Asia) until 1800 BCE, it is not impossible that that Anatolian branch remained secluded somewhere in or near the Eurasian Steppe until that time. Who knows, they might even have come from the Urals or the Andronovo culture (I know how outlandish that sounds) and came all the way to Anatolia, maybe via Turkmenistan and Iran, or across the Caucasus, rather than via the Balkans. After all, the Hittites are the first Anatolian IE people to appear in the record, and they first showed up in northeast Anatolia, not in western Anatolia. Furthermore, the Lycians and Lydians do not appear in western Anatolia until 1200 BCE, around the time of the demise of the Hittite Empire. So the movement went from east to west, not the other way round.

    It has recently been suggested by the Reich team that the Indo-Iranians did not descend from Sintashta (the inventors of the chariot) or Andronovo. This would mean that the R1a-Z93 Indo-Iranian branch originated in northern European Russia (Abashevo or Fatyanovo–Balanovo). These R1a tribes would have expanded south to establish the Srubna culture, pushing the Mycenaeans and Illyrians away to Southeast Europe. Obviously Sintashta and Andronovo were also R1a-dominant cultures, but maybe not Z93. In any case they possessed EEF admixture not found in South Asians today, so there must have been another source of R1a-Z93 for the Indo-Iranian migrations. R1b might have been in Central Asia since the Afanasevo culture (contemporary to Yamna). Successive migrations of R1a from northern Russia (Sintashta and Indo-Iranians) eventually pushed R1b-Z2103 tribes south to Iran, Armenia and Anatolia. However, they would have acquired chariots from them.

    If the Anatolian branch originated in Central Asia, they would have belonged to R1b-Z2103 (found in Anatolia), maybe mixed with some R1a-S224 from Sintashta/Andronovo, but also Q1a or Q1b lineages from Central Asia (also present in Anatolia). Because of the later Turkish migrations, it is easy to assume that all Q1a or Q1b in Turkey is of Turkic origin. But some, and especially Q1b1, may have come during the Middle to Late Bronze Age with the Indo-Europeans from Central Asia. Until recently I thought that it was only the Indo-Iranians, but they might have been preceded by others, like the Armenians and the Hittites.

    The really interesting thing is that J2b is also found in Central Asia (at least Kazakhstan), Iran, Armenia and eastern Anatolia, as well as in the Indian subcontinent. So there is also a trail leaving from the Volga-Ural region across Central Asia then moving west to Anatolia and east to India. In fact J2b is found all over the Middle East, and apparently most or all of it dates back to the Bronze Age. I am not sure there is any Neolithic J2b* left. It's either J2b1 or J2b2a1. The question is, which IE tribe brought it there besides the Indo-Aryans? The Mitanni? The Armenians? The Hittites?

    That's a lot to process and hopefully we will know more from the new paper on West Asia that will be published soon.
    Last edited by Maciamo; 15-05-17 at 11:33.
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    So E-v13 and J2b are both indo European lineages? You have said in another post that they appear to have travel-led together?!

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    Here we again this subclade is IE and this one is not theories, based on really scarce and murky evidence. I1 is also found in the Volga populations, Chuvas and Tatars have about 10%+ so I1 is also Indo-European. Those people speak a Turkic language btw.
    And what are you saying now that I2 is not Ilyrian?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I would also check the Gelonians for distribution of this haplogroups (Hellenes from above Sarmatia)
    For the population near Volga and their J2b but also some other haplogroups that can be found among Greeks one should check the settlement of the Gelonians,formerly Hellenes living by the coast that emigrated in Scythia above Sarmatians,using a tongue partly Greek,partly Scythian in his own time,Herodotus.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    I'm glad someone else doesn't require Hittites in Anatolia by 4000BC

    There was always waves coming out of the steppe, so this model is very fitting. Anatolians may have been driven by Greeks who may have been driven by Iranians or something like that. Probably not so simple, but for West Asia Hittites are newcomers on the historical record, among very sophisticated civilizations that kept track of Anatolia. And Greeks are even later.

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    Maciamo, I think you can find your answer, look at the J2b-L283>Z600 (xZ627) in Bronze Age Armenia dated at 1009 BC, probably moved into Armenia with Hayasa-Azzi, Hayasa=Hayastan (proto-Armenians) they appear around 1500 BC, that J2b can be a rememant of that civilization. Great analysis on the J2b link, makes a lot of sense and was an enjoyable read, great work! :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milan.M View Post
    I would also check the Gelonians for distribution of this haplogroups (Hellenes from above Sarmatia)
    For the population near Volga and their J2b but also some other haplogroups that can be found among Greeks one should check the settlement of the Gelonians,formerly Hellenes living by the coast that emigrated in Scythia above Sarmatians,using a tongue partly Greek,partly Scythian in his own time,Herodotus.
    I agree and I have written about it. [I also have placed them in the forest steppe while I believe that the Budini were Uralic speakers].

    I want to say though that I personally have said that the Myceneans would have been J2a. Imo even if J2a was 'Minoan' Myceneans could have had it because Linear A and Linear B tablets often appear in the same places.
    Not to mention that it's almost impossible to tell if the language(s) of Linear A could have been related to IE or any other language family.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    The new paper on the Genomic History of Southeastern Europe by Mathieson et al. identified the first ancient J2b2 sample in Europe. This sample was found in Middle Bronze Age southern Croatia, at Veliki Vanik and dates from 1700-1500 BCE.

    It has been proposed by archeologists that the Illyrianisation of the Dinaric Alps took place from 1600 to 1100 BCE, so that fits the time frame.

    Two individuals from Veliki Vanik were tested and both possessed about one third of Steppe admixture and a few percents of EHG, the rest being EEF. Both individuals possessed typical Pontic-Caspian Steppe mtDNA (I1a1 and W3a) that could not be anything by Indo-European in origin. A third individual from Late Bronze Age northern Croatia was also tested and belonged to mtDNA HV0a.

    This is the first evidence we have of Indo-European lineages in Illyria prior to the Slavic migrations that replaced most of the male lineages by I2a-L147.2 and R1a (Z280 and M458) lineages.

    I have proposed for several years that J2b lineages came to Europe as minor Indo-European lineages. This is because both J2b1 and J2b2 are found at relatively high frequencies in the Volga-Ural region today (especially among the Mordvins, Chuvash and Tatars, who otherwise are very different genetically), and because both J2b1-M205 and J2b2a1-L283 have a TMRCA of respectively 5500 ybp and 5900 ybp, which corresponds to the late Khavlynsk period in the Steppe, just before the appearance of Yamna. Deeper clades of J2b2 underwent a major expansion exactly during the Yamna period. J2b2a1 subclades are consistently found at low frequencies (0.5 to 2%) in all places settled by the Indo-Europeans, although its frequency is much higher in Southeast Europe, including the historical region of Illyria (ex-Yugoslavia + Albania).

    J2b was obviously not the only Illyrian lineage. I have explained here that the large-scale Yamna migration that reached central and western Europe mostly bypassed the heavily settled Neolithic cultures of 'Old Europe' and followed the Danube until the Hungarian Plain. From there the main branch expanded to Bohemia and Germany, but another branch may have gone south to the Dinaric Alps. It is possible that the branch that colonised Illyria from 1600 BCE were late Steppe migrants from the Volga region, maybe pushed out of the Steppe by the northern R1a tribes of the Srubna cultures (from 2000 BCE). Through a founding effect, J2b2 lineages might have considerably increased its original frequency after reaching Illyria. Nowadays J2b is far more common in the Dinaric Alps than R1b, but it would be unthinkable that R1b lineages weren't also present among the original Illyrians, considering the time frame.

    More interestingly, the Dinaric Alps have an unusually high incidence of Y-haplogroup Q1a, especially on the Croatian island of Hvar (6%), which presumably acted as a refuge for the ancient Illyrian population after the Slavic migrations. If the Illyrians originated in the Volga-Ural region, it wouldn't be that surprising to find also Siberian lineages like Q1a, especially since Q1a has been attested in the Khvalynsk culture alongside R1a and R1b in the Samara region. So the origins of the Illyrians may be in a Middle Volga during the Khvalynsk period.

    Linguistically not much is known about the Illyrian language. It probably belonged to the Centum branch (linked to R1b-L23) but that is not even clear. If it originated in the Volga region, but was not R1a/Satem, that would explain why it is so different from the West Pontic Italo-Celtic and Germanic branches.





    Mycenaean J2b

    Additionally, J2b is also found at high frequency in Greece and in regions that used to be part of the ancient Greek world (Ionia, Magna Grecia). However it is almost absent from Crete (where J2a1 lineages are dominant). J2b was also not found among Neolithic Anatolian or European farmers, and is absent from central Anatolia. This suggests that J2b was not associated with the Neolithic Greeks nor with the Minoan civilisation, but may well have come to Greece with the Mycenaeans, who also appear to have been pushed out of the Steppe by the advance of the Srubna culture. That would give us both the Illyrians and the Mycenaeans (and who knows, maybe also the Albanians) as Middle-Late Bronze Age Steppe migrants to the Southeast Europe, in a migration that was particularly rich in J2b lineages from the Middle Volga region. That would explain why it has been so hard to identify R1a or R1b lineages that could be of Illyrian or Mycenaean origin. In fact, the only one that seems possible is R1b-Z2103.

    Could the Hittites and Armenians have left the Steppe around the same time as the Illyrians and Mycenaeans?

    It might be useful to put all this in the context of two other hotly debated historical migrations: those of the ancient Armenians and the Anatolian branch of IE speakers, including the Hittites. Both make their appearance in Armenia and Anatolia in this fateful period following the Srubna conquest of the Pontic-Caspian Steppe circa 2000 BCE, and like the Illyrians and Mycenaeans really make their entry on the political scene around 1600 BCE. How much of a coincidence is this that these four mysterious branches of Indo-Europeans all appear exactly at the same time out of nowhere? What's more, all four languages are difficult to classify in the IE tree, with Illyrian, Mycenaean Greek and Armenian that display both elements of Centum and Satem.

    As for the Anatolian branch, I originally thought that it was among the minority of early Steppe (Sredny Stog) invaders that took political power in some parts of the Balkans (probably Bulgaria) and remained there or in western Anatolia (e.g. Troy) for over 2000 years before really expanding across Anatolia. But since the Hittites suddenly show up around 1600 BCE with chariots, which were not invented until 2000 BCE in the Volga-Ural region, and did not spread fully across the Pontic Steppe (and Central Asia) until 1800 BCE, it is not impossible that that Anatolian branch remained secluded somewhere in or near the Eurasian Steppe until that time. Who knows, they might even have come from the Urals or the Andronovo culture (I know how outlandish that sounds) and came all the way to Anatolia, maybe via Turkmenistan and Iran, or across the Caucasus, rather than via the Balkans. After all, the Hittites are the first Anatolian IE people to appear in the record, and they first showed up in northeast Anatolia, not in western Anatolia. Furthermore, the Lycians and Lydians do not appear in western Anatolia until 1200 BCE, around the time of the demise of the Hittite Empire. So the movement went from east to west, not the other way round.

    It has recently been suggested by the Reich team that the Indo-Iranians did not descend from Sintashta (the inventors of the chariot) or Andronovo. This would mean that the R1a-Z93 Indo-Iranian branch originated in northern European Russia (Abashevo or Fatyanovo–Balanovo). These R1a tribes would have expanded south to establish the Srubna culture, pushing the Mycenaeans and Illyrians away to Southeast Europe. Obviously Sintashta and Andronovo were also R1a-dominant cultures, but maybe not Z93. In any case they possessed EEF admixture not found in South Asians today, so there must have been another source of R1a-Z93 for the Indo-Iranian migrations. R1b might have been in Central Asia since the Afanasevo culture (contemporary to Yamna). Successive migrations of R1a from northern Russia (Sintashta and Indo-Iranians) eventually pushed R1b-Z2103 tribes south to Iran, Armenia and Anatolia. However, they would have acquired chariots from them.

    If the Anatolian branch originated in Central Asia, they would have belonged to R1b-Z2103 (found in Anatolia), maybe mixed with some R1a-S224 from Sintashta/Andronovo, but also Q1a or Q1b lineages from Central Asia (also present in Anatolia). Because of the later Turkish migrations, it is easy to assume that all Q1a or Q1b in Turkey is of Turkic origin. But some, and especially Q1b1, may have come during the Middle to Late Bronze Age with the Indo-Europeans from Central Asia. Until recently I thought that it was only the Indo-Iranians, but they might have been preceded by others, like the Armenians and the Hittites.

    The really interesting thing is that J2b is also found in Central Asia (at least Kazakhstan), Iran, Armenia and eastern Anatolia, as well as in the Indian subcontinent. So there is also a trail leaving from the Volga-Ural region across Central Asia then moving west to Anatolia and east to India. In fact J2b is found all over the Middle East, and apparently most or all of it dates back to the Bronze Age. I am not sure there is any Neolithic J2b* left. It's either J2b1 or J2b2a1. The question is, which IE tribe brought it there besides the Indo-Aryans? The Mitanni? The Armenians? The Hittites?

    That's a lot to process and hopefully we will know more from the new paper on West Asia that will be published soon.
    An article in European Journal suggests that Asian haplogroups is Croatian Islands are remnants of Mongols fighting in alliance with Croats in 6th century. Or could be the remnants of Turks of 1500 ad. Here is the article:
    "Article

    European Journal of Human Genetics (2003) 11, 535–542. doi:10.1038/sj.ejhg.5200992
    Y chromosomal heritage of Croatian population and its island isolates"


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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    The new paper on the Genomic History of Southeastern Europe by Mathieson et al. identified the first ancient J2b2 sample in Europe. This sample was found in Middle Bronze Age southern Croatia, at Veliki Vanik and dates from 1700-1500 BCE.

    It has been proposed by archeologists that the Illyrianisation of the Dinaric Alps took place from 1600 to 1100 BCE, so that fits the time frame.

    Two individuals from Veliki Vanik were tested and both possessed about one third of Steppe admixture and a few percents of EHG, the rest being EEF. Both individuals possessed typical Pontic-Caspian Steppe mtDNA (I1a1 and W3a) that could not be anything by Indo-European in origin. A third individual from Late Bronze Age northern Croatia was also tested and belonged to mtDNA HV0a.

    This is the first evidence we have of Indo-European lineages in Illyria prior to the Slavic migrations that replaced most of the male lineages by I2a-L147.2 and R1a (Z280 and M458) lineages.

    I have proposed for several years that J2b lineages came to Europe as minor Indo-European lineages. This is because both J2b1 and J2b2 are found at relatively high frequencies in the Volga-Ural region today (especially among the Mordvins, Chuvash and Tatars, who otherwise are very different genetically), and because both J2b1-M205 and J2b2a1-L283 have a TMRCA of respectively 5500 ybp and 5900 ybp, which corresponds to the late Khavlynsk period in the Steppe, just before the appearance of Yamna. Deeper clades of J2b2 underwent a major expansion exactly during the Yamna period. J2b2a1 subclades are consistently found at low frequencies (0.5 to 2%) in all places settled by the Indo-Europeans, although its frequency is much higher in Southeast Europe, including the historical region of Illyria (ex-Yugoslavia + Albania).

    J2b was obviously not the only Illyrian lineage. I have explained here that the large-scale Yamna migration that reached central and western Europe mostly bypassed the heavily settled Neolithic cultures of 'Old Europe' and followed the Danube until the Hungarian Plain. From there the main branch expanded to Bohemia and Germany, but another branch may have gone south to the Dinaric Alps. It is possible that the branch that colonised Illyria from 1600 BCE were late Steppe migrants from the Volga region, maybe pushed out of the Steppe by the northern R1a tribes of the Srubna cultures (from 2000 BCE). Through a founding effect, J2b2 lineages might have considerably increased its original frequency after reaching Illyria. Nowadays J2b is far more common in the Dinaric Alps than R1b, but it would be unthinkable that R1b lineages weren't also present among the original Illyrians, considering the time frame.

    More interestingly, the Dinaric Alps have an unusually high incidence of Y-haplogroup Q1a, especially on the Croatian island of Hvar (6%), which presumably acted as a refuge for the ancient Illyrian population after the Slavic migrations. If the Illyrians originated in the Volga-Ural region, it wouldn't be that surprising to find also Siberian lineages like Q1a, especially since Q1a has been attested in the Khvalynsk culture alongside R1a and R1b in the Samara region. So the origins of the Illyrians may be in a Middle Volga during the Khvalynsk period.

    Linguistically not much is known about the Illyrian language. It probably belonged to the Centum branch (linked to R1b-L23) but that is not even clear. If it originated in the Volga region, but was not R1a/Satem, that would explain why it is so different from the West Pontic Italo-Celtic and Germanic branches.





    Mycenaean J2b

    Additionally, J2b is also found at high frequency in Greece and in regions that used to be part of the ancient Greek world (Ionia, Magna Grecia). However it is almost absent from Crete (where J2a1 lineages are dominant). J2b was also not found among Neolithic Anatolian or European farmers, and is absent from central Anatolia. This suggests that J2b was not associated with the Neolithic Greeks nor with the Minoan civilisation, but may well have come to Greece with the Mycenaeans, who also appear to have been pushed out of the Steppe by the advance of the Srubna culture. That would give us both the Illyrians and the Mycenaeans (and who knows, maybe also the Albanians) as Middle-Late Bronze Age Steppe migrants to the Southeast Europe, in a migration that was particularly rich in J2b lineages from the Middle Volga region. That would explain why it has been so hard to identify R1a or R1b lineages that could be of Illyrian or Mycenaean origin. In fact, the only one that seems possible is R1b-Z2103.

    Could the Hittites and Armenians have left the Steppe around the same time as the Illyrians and Mycenaeans?

    It might be useful to put all this in the context of two other hotly debated historical migrations: those of the ancient Armenians and the Anatolian branch of IE speakers, including the Hittites. Both make their appearance in Armenia and Anatolia in this fateful period following the Srubna conquest of the Pontic-Caspian Steppe circa 2000 BCE, and like the Illyrians and Mycenaeans really make their entry on the political scene around 1600 BCE. How much of a coincidence is this that these four mysterious branches of Indo-Europeans all appear exactly at the same time out of nowhere? What's more, all four languages are difficult to classify in the IE tree, with Illyrian, Mycenaean Greek and Armenian that display both elements of Centum and Satem.

    As for the Anatolian branch, I originally thought that it was among the minority of early Steppe (Sredny Stog) invaders that took political power in some parts of the Balkans (probably Bulgaria) and remained there or in western Anatolia (e.g. Troy) for over 2000 years before really expanding across Anatolia. But since the Hittites suddenly show up around 1600 BCE with chariots, which were not invented until 2000 BCE in the Volga-Ural region, and did not spread fully across the Pontic Steppe (and Central Asia) until 1800 BCE, it is not impossible that that Anatolian branch remained secluded somewhere in or near the Eurasian Steppe until that time. Who knows, they might even have come from the Urals or the Andronovo culture (I know how outlandish that sounds) and came all the way to Anatolia, maybe via Turkmenistan and Iran, or across the Caucasus, rather than via the Balkans. After all, the Hittites are the first Anatolian IE people to appear in the record, and they first showed up in northeast Anatolia, not in western Anatolia. Furthermore, the Lycians and Lydians do not appear in western Anatolia until 1200 BCE, around the time of the demise of the Hittite Empire. So the movement went from east to west, not the other way round.

    It has recently been suggested by the Reich team that the Indo-Iranians did not descend from Sintashta (the inventors of the chariot) or Andronovo. This would mean that the R1a-Z93 Indo-Iranian branch originated in northern European Russia (Abashevo or Fatyanovo–Balanovo). These R1a tribes would have expanded south to establish the Srubna culture, pushing the Mycenaeans and Illyrians away to Southeast Europe. Obviously Sintashta and Andronovo were also R1a-dominant cultures, but maybe not Z93. In any case they possessed EEF admixture not found in South Asians today, so there must have been another source of R1a-Z93 for the Indo-Iranian migrations. R1b might have been in Central Asia since the Afanasevo culture (contemporary to Yamna). Successive migrations of R1a from northern Russia (Sintashta and Indo-Iranians) eventually pushed R1b-Z2103 tribes south to Iran, Armenia and Anatolia. However, they would have acquired chariots from them.

    If the Anatolian branch originated in Central Asia, they would have belonged to R1b-Z2103 (found in Anatolia), maybe mixed with some R1a-S224 from Sintashta/Andronovo, but also Q1a or Q1b lineages from Central Asia (also present in Anatolia). Because of the later Turkish migrations, it is easy to assume that all Q1a or Q1b in Turkey is of Turkic origin. But some, and especially Q1b1, may have come during the Middle to Late Bronze Age with the Indo-Europeans from Central Asia. Until recently I thought that it was only the Indo-Iranians, but they might have been preceded by others, like the Armenians and the Hittites.

    The really interesting thing is that J2b is also found in Central Asia (at least Kazakhstan), Iran, Armenia and eastern Anatolia, as well as in the Indian subcontinent. So there is also a trail leaving from the Volga-Ural region across Central Asia then moving west to Anatolia and east to India. In fact J2b is found all over the Middle East, and apparently most or all of it dates back to the Bronze Age. I am not sure there is any Neolithic J2b* left. It's either J2b1 or J2b2a1. The question is, which IE tribe brought it there besides the Indo-Aryans? The Mitanni? The Armenians? The Hittites?

    That's a lot to process and hopefully we will know more from the new paper on West Asia that will be published soon.
    So the presence of Asian haplogroups in Croatian Islands does not necessary shows J2 was in proximity with Q

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    2 out of 4 members found this post helpful.
    I never understood what this "indo-european" thing is or why it's so important. And I don't understand the "indo-european" language family how is it similar at all? European languages themselves are so vastly different despite the fact the populations are admixed genetically, culturally and live in such close proximity. BARELY any similarities, basically none. There's germanic, Latino, and Slavic languages and that's enough label for it. Don't understand the need to put them all under some umbrella. I think it's digging too deep. You go deep enough there's some connections with every human being on this planet, but very minor things are very unimportant. There are more Turkic words in Bosnian, I'm sure more than Indian words so technically it makes more sense to call Bosnian Turco-European. Can't speak for other languages but I think Bulgarian, Russian and Hungarian are probably more similar to Turkic than any kind of Indian or even some modern European languages.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Apsurdistan View Post
    I never understood what this "indo-european" thing is or why it's so important. And I don't understand the "indo-european" language family how is it similar at all? European languages themselves are so vastly different despite the fact the populations are admixed genetically, culturally and live in such close proximity. BARELY any similarities, basically none. There's germanic, Latino, and Slavic languages and that's enough label for it. Don't understand the need to put them all under some umbrella. I think it's digging too deep. You go deep enough there's some connections with every human being on this planet, but very minor things are very unimportant. There are more Turkic words in Bosnian, I'm sure more than Indian words so technically it makes more sense to call Bosnian Turco-European. Can't speak for other languages but I think Bulgarian, Russian and Hungarian are probably more similar to Turkic than any kind of Indian or even some modern European languages.
    You don't understand what Indo-European is

    Justify your existence ...

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    1 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by IronSide View Post
    You don't understand what Indo-European is

    Justify your existence ...
    My existence? Jupiter and Neptune had sex.
    That makes more sense btw than your quasi-Nazi IE obsession and theories.

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    As I agree with post #1 and have been saying for many years that the illyrians migrated from north to south direction reaching Albania not before ~300BC and fighting against Philip of Macedon ( as per historical texts ) , the question I raise from the same paper is

    Since these are steppe markers moving north to south in the balkans and in the same paper we have finds of G2a with T1a1 in Bulgaria ( although thousands of years earlier than J2 ) and we know both are found together also in LBK Karlsdorf germany , then is the balkan movements/migrations of people firstly from south ( anatolia ) to north in the Balkans or did G2a with T1a1 lead the way for the later J2 peoples from steppe lands?
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    So another steppe people who vanished without a trace... that's what you believe about these Ilyrians?
    The balkans must be like some kind of black hole for vanishing of steppe people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    As I agree with post #1 and have been saying for many years that the illyrians migrated from north to south direction reaching Albania not before ~300BC and fighting against Philip of Macedon ( as per historical texts ) , the question I raise from the same paper is

    Since these are steppe markers moving north to south in the balkans and in the same paper we have finds of G2a with T1a1 in Bulgaria ( although thousands of years earlier than J2 ) and we know both are found together also in LBK Karlsdorf germany , then is the balkan movements/migrations of people firstly from south ( anatolia ) to north in the Balkans or did G2a with T1a1 lead the way for the later J2 peoples from steppe lands?
    The presence of Illyrians in the Balkan is also documented. Homer mentioned the Illyrians in his "Iliad" poem. The "Iliad" is approximately written in 10 century BC . So 300 BC is too low for time Illyrians were present in Balkans. Keep in mind they did not show up the day Homer wrote Iliad

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    Quote Originally Posted by Apsurdistan View Post
    I never understood what this "indo-european" thing is or why it's so important. And I don't understand the "indo-european" language family how is it similar at all? European languages themselves are so vastly different despite the fact the populations are admixed genetically, culturally and live in such close proximity. BARELY any similarities, basically none. There's germanic, Latino, and Slavic languages and that's enough label for it. Don't understand the need to put them all under some umbrella. I think it's digging too deep. You go deep enough there's some connections with every human being on this planet, but very minor things are very unimportant. There are more Turkic words in Bosnian, I'm sure more than Indian words so technically it makes more sense to call Bosnian Turco-European. Can't speak for other languages but I think Bulgarian, Russian and Hungarian are probably more similar to Turkic than any kind of Indian or even some modern European languages.
    We don't see magnetism. That does not mean magnetism does not exist. If you have time to google indoeuropean you will see that indo European actually exists

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    0 out of 4 members found this post helpful.
    Cuz it's on wikipedia and some academia people talk about it then it must be solid truth that shouldn't ever be questioned. Don't care if magnets spoke indo-european, I don't wanna google it, it's stupid and fanatical and exaggerated. And most people don't know what it is nor do they care or make anything out of it cuz it's a fringe meaningless subject.

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    One question would be how did that J2b lineage get to the Volga?

    Didn't Dienekes claim at one point that J2b was the marker of Indo- Europeans? Maybe he thought they brought CHG like ancestry to Europe? Maybe I'm misremembering.


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    5 out of 5 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    One question would be how did that J2b lineage get to the Volga?

    Didn't Dienekes claim at one point that J2b was the marker of Indo- Europeans? Maybe he thought they brought CHG like ancestry to Europe? Maybe I'm misremembering.
    While J2b2a-L283 may have expanded from the Steppe to the Balkans during the early Bronze Age, the Volga/Ural J2b2a is absolutely not an evidence that it did so. In fact, their J2b2a seems to be of recent (central) European origin and Balkan subclades are ancestral. I have explained Maciamo the situation with the Volga/Ural J2b2a before here and here, but apparently he either doesn't understand subclades, or didn't even bother to read my posts.

    Now just because we have a J2b2a-L283 ancient DNA from Bronze Age Croatia (this haplogroup in the Balkans is far more common among Albanians) now he goes as far as to claim that all "J2b" (including J2b1-M205) in the western Balkans is of the same source. This may turn out to be true, but there is no phylogenetic evidence. J2b1-M205 in the whole western and central Balkans so far seems to belong to just one cluster. If such were the case, it should have much deeper roots than that, like is the case with J2b2a-L283 and now backed up by ancient DNA. J2b1-M205 as a haplogroup has a TMRCA of ~6000 ybp, and its center of diversity and frequency seems to be in the Levant area. Furthermore in an ancient DNA context, it has been found in ancient DNA from Early Bronze Age Levant area. There is also the Roman era Gladiator who was J2b1-M205 and likely of Middle Eastern origin.
    Last edited by Trojet; 16-05-17 at 03:48.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Apsurdistan View Post
    Cuz it's on wikipedia and some academia people talk about it then it must be solid truth that shouldn't ever be questioned. Don't care if magnets spoke indo-european, I don't wanna google it, it's stupid and fanatical and exaggerated. And most people don't know what it is nor do they care or make anything out of it cuz it's a fringe meaningless subject.
    If you don't know anything about genetics or linguistics or pre-history, and have no interest whatsoever in learning about them, why the heck are you reading and commenting on the threads? It's as useless to you as it is to us.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    If you don't know anything about genetics or linguistics or pre-history, and have no interest whatsoever in learning about them, why the heck are you reading and commenting on the threads? It's as useless to you as it is to us.
    If you find it useless, ignore it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by holderlin View Post
    I'm glad someone else doesn't require Hittites in Anatolia by 4000BC

    There was always waves coming out of the steppe, so this model is very fitting. Anatolians may have been driven by Greeks who may have been driven by Iranians or something like that. Probably not so simple, but for West Asia Hittites are newcomers on the historical record, among very sophisticated civilizations that kept track of Anatolia. And Greeks are even later.
    Genetically, we also see a big wave coming to Balkans from CA/BA Anatolia and Armenia, bringing a lot of Caucasian admixture. It should mean something, like appearance of some BA tribes in Balkans. Who were day? I think, these were the Greek tribes, later pushed into Greece by Late BA and IA wave of new arrivals from North, like Thracians and alike.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    One question would be how did that J2b lineage get to the Volga?
    I have explained that on the J2 page. J2b was found in Neolithic Iran. It just needed to migrate north along the Caspian Sea, either through the Caucasus or through Central Asia, and voilà!

    Didn't Dienekes claim at one point that J2b was the marker of Indo- Europeans? Maybe he thought they brought CHG like ancestry to Europe? Maybe I'm misremembering.
    I think he was originally claiming (like Goga) that J2a was the original IE haplogroup (probably for personal reasons) as he favoured the Anatolian origin hypothesis (also for personal reason since his family is from the Pontus region of Anatolia).

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    Quote Originally Posted by DuPidh View Post
    The presence of Illyrians in the Balkan is also documented. Homer mentioned the Illyrians in his "Iliad" poem. The "Iliad" is approximately written in 10 century BC . So 300 BC is too low for time Illyrians were present in Balkans. Keep in mind they did not show up the day Homer wrote Iliad
    The Iliad is an epic poem, composed around 800-725 B.C. and written down sometime between 725 and 675 B.C.

    that's 1185BC to when it occurred, to when it is written , say 450 to 500 years after

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    The current J2b in Tatars and Chuvashs is a young clade with older cousin clades in the Balkans and central Europe J-Y12000, so it got there from the Balkans. Goths maybe, or Huns, I don't know, but someone in the early middle ages moved it there, that could actually be the pattern with other Balkan haplogroups as well, found in volga urals or deep beyond in the steppe, I can think of E-V13, I1 and some Balkan R1b-CTS9219, moved to the steppes from the Balkans, not the other way around.

    However, that doesn't mean J2b2a1-L283 or a deeper subclade can't be Indo-European, ancient dna has been found that may support that, I have my doubts but still, extremely low frequency in Crete and western Anatolia doesn't suggest they took that migration route, like the Minoans I used to think Balkan J2b must have come from the same source, Kura-Araxes ? I don't know if Archaeology supports that, I'm giving that culture too much power

    I would refer to Trojet's post above, he said it better than me.
    Last edited by IronSide; 16-05-17 at 10:10.

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