J2b as an IE lineages of the ancient Illyrians & Mycenaeans

[Aaron1981]

Steppe is high in those countries. It's genetic mutation from a Steppe/EHG-like source.

WHGs had dark skin and dark hair.

Not all. Mesolithic R1b in Baltic, Romania, and Ukraine were carriers of light skin mutations. WHG is on the steppe, but not as much as EHG. WHG-EHG bifurcates in mesolithic Ukraine.

 

[Fatherland]

Perhaps no *living* Albanian Y lineages actually descend from Normans. If even the west Europeans can't figure out who is Norman in their own damn country, how the hell would you when the connection is even more obscure?

The L23 (xL51) with DYS385ab of 11,11 is definitely not from the Normans as it is pan-Balkan but peaks in Albanians and Greeks, most likely arriving from the north west or possibly Italy if you follow the phylogeny.

I don't see evidence that J2b2 is anything other than Middle Eastern in origin and has nothing to do with the steppes or ancient Europe.

R1b-L23 is of Yamnaya steppe extraction, not Italian. All males in the Ancient Yamnaya samples were R1b-L23.

For the J2b2 comment, elaborate or don't post anymore. You sound like the kindergarten of the primitive years of haplogroupism(2005-2011).

There is already J2b2-L283 Ancient European sample, so you failed.

 

[Bergin]

I don't see evidence that J2b2 is anything other than Middle Eastern in origin and has nothing to do with the steppes or ancient Europe.

Any chance that you can back up this statement with some evidence?

 

[Fatherland]

J2 is as Middle Eastern as R1 is South Asian. There really is no point of arguing over this shit again.

 

[Yetos]

Good night Guys

I liked berkin's idea/proposal.

until we really know what true Illyrians, or true Myceneans were,
we are still modern Greeks and modern Albanians and whatever else we are.
and assume since we are.
that the 'old ones' were the same.
so by knowing better what they were,
we can understand what we are.

I my shelf have no IE ethnicity by my DNA,
my ethinicity is heritaged or forced to grand grand ... parents
either by blood, either by common memories, either by common acts, either by ... etc etc

Good night all

 

[Fatherland]

Good night Guys

I liked berkin's idea/proposal.

until we really know what true Illyrians, or true Myceneans were,
we are still modern Greeks and modern Albanians and whatever else we are.
and assume since we are.
that the 'old ones' were the same.
so by knowing better what they were,
we can understand what we are.

I my shelf have no IE ethnicity by my DNA,
my ethinicity is heritaged or forced to grand grand ... parents
either by blood, either by common memories, either by common acts, either by ... etc etc

Good night all

Ancient J2b2-L283 was found in an area full of Illyrians, so therefore I know that I am Illyrian-descended.

Same logic goes for westerners picking Celtic, Germanic, Anglo-Saxon etc. Except that my logic is based on real genetic finds with such a close precision.

Also, a Bronze Age Montenegrin sample found was plotting close to modern Albanians. This is 100% proof of Ancient Balkan continuity among Albanians, particularly Ghegs.

Good night.

 

[Fatherland]

Not all. Mesolithic R1b in Baltic, Romania, and Ukraine were carriers of light skin mutations. WHG is on the steppe, but not as much as EHG. WHG-EHG bifurcates in mesolithic Ukraine.

WHG had nothing to do with light skin.

 

[Bergin]

Ancient J2b2-L283 was found in an area full of Illyrians, so therefore I know that I am Illyrian-descended. Good night.

Also, a Bronze Age Montenegrin sample found was plotting close to modern Albanians. This is 100% proof of Ancient Balkan continuity among Albanians, particularly Ghegs.

I will tent to agree with the logic. Yet I think that a single J2b2 in croatia, and the autosomal of a montenegrim BA, is insufficient to support the idea beyond reasonable doubt. I think that further investigation might prove you right (like 3-10 J2b2 and others).

Same goes for my comment regarding the high IBD of 1500 years ago: maybe J2b2 was in much larger density before, or maybe G2a got completely wiped out. we need data to tell us.

I will also remind you to take it a bit more easy with your personal 'glory' of illyrian J2b2:
- Would an Albanian with R1a or J2b1 be less Albanian than you? I just ordered the Living Dna test and maybe I will be one of those....

good night.

 

[Fatherland]

I will tent to agree with the logic. Yet I think that a single J2b2 in croatia, and the autosomal of a montenegrim BA, is insufficient to support the idea beyond reasonable doubt. I think that further investigation might prove you right (like 3-10 J2b2 and others).

Same goes for my comment regarding the high IBD of 1500 years ago: maybe J2b2 was in much larger density before, or maybe G2a got completely wiped out. we need data to tell us.

I will also remind you to take it a bit more easy with your personal 'glory' of illyrian J2b2:
- Would an Albanian with R1a or J2b1 be less Albanian than you? I just ordered the Living Dna test and maybe I will be one of those....

good night.

Good point

Well, there has been tons of misconceptions about certain haplogroups throughout the years and still people can't get it through their heads when evidence is right infront of their eyes.

Well, check the Albanian bloodlines project and you will understand why. People with Malsor(Highlander) ancestry are exclusively J2b2, EV13 and R1b-L23 with a minority of I1.
Keep in mind these Albanians tend to plot the most north out of all Albanians in terms of aDNA.

Which area of Albania do you hail from?

 

[Bergin]

Which area of Albania do you hail from?

I was born and brought up in tirana. My father is geg (mirdite & shkoder), while my mother is tosk (gjirokaster & permet).

 

[Fatherland]

I was born and brought up in tirana. My father is geg (mirdite & shkoder), while my mother is tosk (gjirokaster & permet).

90-95% chance you are EV13/J2b2-L283/R1b-L23.

 

[Fustan]

I am certain you are either R1b or J2b2.

 

[Fustan]

Perhaps no *living* Albanian Y lineages actually descend from Normans.

Yes there is. I1-L22>P109 is generally associated with Normans and it exists at around 2.6% among Kosovo Albanians.

If even the west Europeans can't figure out who is Norman in their own damn country, how the hell would you when the connection is even more obscure?

Considering that Normans are foreigners to the Balkans (and they did penetrate pretty much the entire Balkans), they have a foreign haplogroup, thus easier to identify. Come on man, it's simple logic.

The L23 (xL51) with DYS385ab of 11,11 is definitely not from the Normans as it is pan-Balkan but peaks in Albanians and Greeks, most likely arriving from the north west or possibly Italy if you follow the phylogeny.

L23 is Indo-European (Yamnaya). No one ever claimed it was from Normans.

I don't see evidence that J2b2 is anything other than Middle Eastern in origin and has nothing to do with the steppes or ancient Europe.

J2b2-L283 was found in a Bronze Age (proto-illyrian, ancient Europe) sample from Dalmatia almost a month ago, and plenty of threads have been made regarding this discovery.

 

[DuPidh]

Well Chalkokondyles said that Albanians came with general Maniakes,so if there's a Norman haplogroups among them nothing strange.
What is confusing me is the recent grouping of Albanian language with Germanic languages.

Albanian language fits everywhere. I think it could be that Illyrian language was a survivor of proto-European language who gave birth to every other European language. Other words our language still is the closest possible to the original language who was spoken before the languages become Germanic, slavic, romance,Greek,Armenian. It fits equally in every group, satem or centum

 

[LATGAL]

Also, a Bronze Age Montenegrin sample found was plotting close to modern Albanians. This is 100% proof of Ancient Balkan continuity among Albanians, particularly Ghegs.

The Bronze Age Montenegrin sample (which was of low quality too from what I recall so perhaps not much should be based on it considering I haven't seen any other tests ran on it by many people) on non-projected PCAs plots with Iberians and North Italians. Both contemporary Albanians and Greeks seem to have moved towards a somewhat more 'eastern' (or ANE-heavy or the Caucasus side of things) position for whatever reason but neither Albania nor post-Neolithic Greece and the Aegean have been sampled yet so we don't know when they acquired their modern 'positions'. The other, recent samples from the Balkans (all the way down to Iron-Age Bulgaria) seem to be similar based on their position on the projected PCA.

So I don't entirely agree with you, something seems to have affected the Balkans after that quite a bit, unless populations further south than Croatia and Bulgaria already looked different at the time. We'll see with further sampling. But I agree that Ghegs do seem to be the most conservative genetically population in the Balkans which is unsurprising.

Also, as an aside, you massively exaggerate the R1a and I2a-Din that has been found in Macedonian Greeks, halve your estimate to around 30-35% and it's closer to what I've seen. In comparison other mainland Greeks and Tosks have some 20% of those two combined which is well, significant too (and even Ghegs managed to end up with some 5-6%). As for the Albanian impact on Greek Macedonia, it was insignificant.

 

[LATGAL]

Not all. Mesolithic R1b in Baltic, Romania, and Ukraine were carriers of light skin mutations. WHG is on the steppe, but not as much as EHG. WHG-EHG bifurcates in mesolithic Ukraine.

Looking at those again, the three Mesolithic Latvians were all homozygous ancestral for SLC45A2 and two of them were heterozygous for SLC24A5. The Mesolithic Romanians were all homozygous ancestral for both. Have I gone wrong somewhere?

They seem to adhere to the general pre-farmer situation in Europe west of the Ukraine-Karelia (and Scandinavia).

 

[Fatherland]

The Bronze Age Montenegrin sample (which was of low quality too from what I recall so perhaps not much should be based on it considering I haven't seen any other tests ran on it by many people) on non-projected PCAs plots with Iberians and North Italians. Both contemporary Albanians and Greeks seem to have moved towards a somewhat more 'eastern' (or ANE-heavy or the Caucasus side of things) position for whatever reason but neither Albania nor post-Neolithic Greece and the Aegean have been sampled yet so we don't know when they acquired their modern 'positions'.

Wrong. It plots between Albanians and Bulgarians. So it's more Eastern shifted than contemporary Albanians, yet within the Albanian spectrum. And we are not even taking into amount many modern Albanians who are shifted towards that direction too that have been shown on other PCA maps apart from this one.

Not even close to North Italians/Iberians.

JAZ1

 

[Milan.M]

Albanian language fits everywhere. I think it could be that Illyrian language was a survivor of proto-European language who gave birth to every other European language. Other words our language still is the closest possible to the original language who was spoken before the languages become Germanic, slavic, romance,Greek,Armenian. It fits equally in every group, satem or centum

Ancient Illyrianzz

 

[LABERIA]

Well, Aegean Macedonia did not only have Slavs. It would not be out of the question to consider that R1b, V13 that accompanies the massive frequency of Slavic Y-DNA (R1a and I2a-Din which makes 40% minimum of the region) in Greek Macedonia is also Bulgarian, Vlachic or Albanian.


Very little "Original Makedonian" there, as Yetos has on his profile.

Well, about this discussion of original Macedonian i am undecided between Yetos and Milan. M. An important part of the population of the Greek region of Macedonia are people arrived in the region from Asia Minor during the exchange of the population between Greece and Turkey. They gathered all this people from every angle of Asia, using as criteria the fact that this people were Christians and settled them in the region of Macedonia, Epir, etc. My impression is that Yetos is the descendant of this interesting group of people.
From the other side, Milan M is a slav but in their country they have a huge statue of Alexander The Great, so probably Milan. M win.

 

[Fustan]

Well, about this discussion of original Macedonian i am undecided between Yetos and Milan. M. An important part of the population of the Greek region of Macedonia are people arrived in the region from Asia Minor during the exchange of the population between Greece and Turkey. They gathered all this people from every angle of Asia, using as criteria the fact that this people were Christians and settled them in the region of Macedonia, Epir, etc. My impression is that Yetos is the descendant of this interesting group of people.
From the other side, Milan M is a slav but in their country they have a huge statue of Alexander The Great, so probably Milan. M win.

At least Yetos has a Hellenic culture, while Milan is from FYROM (judging by your posts?). I think Greeks have more legitimacy towards the ancient Hellenes, to be fair so do FYROMians, you can't really stop anyone from identifying with what they want to identify as. If FYROMians adopted the Greek language it would at least give the claims of the people of FYROM some credence.


I don't particularly care if Greeks identify with the ancients, or with whatever else. I mostly only interject when it's regarding the Arvanites (who by the way, don't exist anymore, they have all been completely assimilated and should stop identifying as Arvanites because they are Greeks now).