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Thread: Mediterranean migration layers in Sicily and southern Italy

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by binx View Post
    The Occitans, are there still many in Calabria?





    This sounds like the typical fairy tale about Italy based more on commonplace than on certain data. Italy is over-studied, if other countries were studied like Italy, they would show a diversity in Y-DNA not so different.

    I think Italy has always been genetically a diverse country, it's hard to believe that slaves, auxiliaries, merchants and Jewish communities may have completely changed the genome of all Italy.
    A typical fairy tale lol? Italy is not overstudied, in comparison to British Isles and Germans, Italians are really under sampled, and Germans and British Isles don't show the same diversity as Italy in terms of Y. I never said completely changed if you look at what I said in the quote that quoted me on I said some, that's a huge difference. Italy has been getting constant gene flow since the neolithic and it really only stopped after Renaissance. With little exceptions of Arbereshe and Molise Croat communities.

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    3 out of 5 members found this post helpful.
    To those who think that the Near Eastern in southern Italy is all from the Bronze Age, explain why it (the red component) is higher in southern Italy, especially Sicily and Calabria, than in the Aegean islanders. If anything given that all of the populations, even mainland southern Balkanites, have roughly similar amounts of the Caucasian element but very different for the Near Eastern, suggests to me the former is part of the genetic base and the latter is a more recent, intrusive element.

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by oreo_cookie View Post
    To those who think that the Near Eastern in southern Italy is all from the Bronze Age, explain why it (the red component) is higher in southern Italy, especially Sicily and Calabria, than in the Aegean islanders. If anything given that all of the populations, even mainland southern Balkanites, have roughly similar amounts of the Caucasian element but very different for the Near Eastern, suggests to me the former is part of the genetic base and the latter is a more recent, intrusive element.
    Makes total sense what your saying, it matches with history and what we are seeing in Y diversity in Italy!! but hey it might be a "Myth" lol

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Azzurro View Post
    It's not a total myth, its a fact there is some recent Middle Eastern dna in Italians, the only myth is that it is all Bronze Age, its funny how Germanic dna can be viewed as recent but not Middle Eastern is that not hypocrisy?
    Do you perhaps have a preview paper of the results from ancient Italian dna, results properly analyzed and interpreted, safely hidden underneath your pillow? Or do you have a crystal ball? Perhaps a time machine?


    Plus, please do not resort to straw man arguments. Do you know what that is?

    I don't see anyone here posting that there is no recent Middle Eastern dna in parts of Italy, depending on how you define "recent". I certainly never have. I don't subscribe to fantasies like those of our Iberian Nordicist former colleagues that you can have centuries of a folk migration by people who aren't poor refugees but who are the ruling power, and excise every last bit of that dna from your country by signing some expulsion orders. I wouldn't be surprised to find a perhaps 5% impact from the Saracens in Sicily and parts of the southern mainland, maybe a bit more. That might be enough to pull SSI a bit away from mainland Greece. We'll see. I assure you that the idea doesn't fill me with horror. Nor does it fill me with horror to think I have ancestry from Crete, quite the opposite in fact. The Minoans and the Etruscans are my favorite ancient civilizations.

    Neither has anyone, including me, said it all came from the Bronze Age. You should read more carefully, and should be careful from whom you take instruction. Going to some people for population genetics information is like trying to get information about astronomy from an astrologer.

    The fact remains that in addition to prior work done by academics on certain markers, we now have ancient dna from the Balkans showing that there was genetic flow from the Caucasus/Anatolia into that region beginning not in the Bronze Age but in the Late Neolithic/Chalcolithic. Did you not read the Mathiesen paper? Now that isn't proof the same exact thing happened in Italy, but considering what we know about migration flows in the Med, I'd say it's a good bet. However, we can't be sure about anything until we get the ancient dna.

    I am warning both you and Sikelliot once and once only. Spamming of the same comment/opinion/straw man arguments over and over again without data will result in deletion of such posts and infractions. This thread is not going to turn into a repeat of the Greek paper one. You've made your points, such as they are; now move on.
    Last edited by Angela; 19-05-17 at 03:39.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Hauteville View Post
    Stefania Sarno send me a message about the samples. Ennesi are not of course Gallo-Italic (but soon Gallo-Italics and Franco-Provenzals should be sampled as well) and Greek Islanders are not only from Dodecaneso but a mix of Aegean Islanders. Here the complete text.

    url immagine
    Thank you Hauteville.

    What a pity this group partnered with Spencer Wells. He may be an expert on uniparental markers, but this autosomal analysis could largely have been done ten years ago. It's just like Dienekes' old calculator, only maybe worse. In fact, it's the Geno 2.0 version of autosomal dna, with all of that system's failings. That's also the problem with some of the samples; they're Geno 2.0 self reported ancestry samples, probably mostly from America.

    We should be far beyond running modern drifted components through calculators or even applying d-stats to them.

    It's actually embarassing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I am warning both you and Sikelliot once and once only. Spamming of the same comment/opinion/straw man arguments over and over again without data will result in deletion of such posts and infractions. This thread is not going to turn into a repeat of the Greek paper one. You've made your points, such as they are; now move on.
    My opinions in this particular thread were stated once each, not repetitively.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Southern & Central Italy received Anatolian influences since the Chalcolitic..(ex. https://books.google.it/books?id=bvb...page&q&f=false) Gaudo, Rinaldone and other similar Copper Age cultures are traditionaly associated with warrior-shepherds coming from the East Med. of a different stock (tall, short heads..CHG?) compared to the locals (short, long heads..typical EEFs)

    Lo studio del materiale osteologico, frammentario e non sempre in un buon stato di
    conservazione, ha suggerito la presenza di un substrato mediterranoide di tipo arcaico quale
    testimonianza di vecchie popolazioni di ascendenza paleo-mesolitica già presenti su tutto il
    territorio italiano (Mallegni, 1985). In particolare si riscontra un’affinità con i neolitici della
    Liguria anche se nella Toscana centrale il fenomeno è mascherato dalla presenza di maggior
    brachicefalia dovuta ad apporti genetici di popolazioni molto probabilmente dell’Italia
    meridionale
    (Mallegni, 1985).

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cato View Post
    Southern & Central Italy received Anatolian influences since the Chalcolitic..(ex. https://books.google.it/books?id=bvb...page&q&f=false) Gaudo, Rinaldone and other similar Copper Age cultures are traditionaly associated with warrior-shepherds coming from the East Med. of a different stock (tall, short heads..CHG?) compared to the locals (short, long heads..typical EEFs)
    Gaudo and, especially, Rinaldone are traditionaly associated with Remedello (EEF), and then, afterwards, with newcomers, warrior-shepherds coming from the Balkans (Vucedol, according to Laviosa Zambotti, southern Balkans according to modern-day scholars), while Remedello differed because it had other influences from Western Europe. These newcomers from the Balkans could have been originally from the East Med/Aegean area, but they first settled in the Balkans.

    Among the main cultures of the early Aeneolithic Central Italy, the facies of Rinaldone shows many elements of correlations with the contemporaneous cultural assemblages of the nearby Balkan district. The aim of this paper is to re-assess the picture of chronological synchronisms, as well as the affinities of the pottery assemblage, of the early Aeneolithic Rinaldone culture, that has been matter of specific studies in the last five years (Cultraro 2001; Cazzella 2003). The new picture shows the close affinities among the early Aeneolithic cultures and the Late Chalcolithic Period of the Epirus and South Balkans, date in calibrated chronologies to the last part of the fourth Millennium B.C. (literal)
    http://data.cnr.it/data/cnr/individuo/prodotto/ID185125

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Do you perhaps have a preview paper of the results from ancient Italian dna, results properly analyzed and interpreted, safely hidden underneath your pillow? Or do you have a crystal ball? Perhaps a time machine?


    Plus, please do not resort to straw man arguments. Do you know what that is?

    I don't see anyone here posting that there is no recent Middle Eastern dna in parts of Italy, depending on how you define "recent". I certainly never have. I don't subscribe to fantasies like those of our Iberian Nordicist former colleagues that you can have centuries of a folk migration by people who aren't poor refugees but who are the ruling power, and excise every last bit of that dna from your country by signing some expulsion orders. I wouldn't be surprised to find a perhaps 5% impact from the Saracens in Sicily and parts of the southern mainland maybe more. We'll see. I assure you that the idea doesn't fill me with horror. Nor does it fill me with horror to think I have ancestry from Crete, quite the opposite in fact. The Minoans and the Etruscans are my favorite ancient civilization.

    Neither has anyone, including me, said it all came from the Bronze Age. You should read more carefully, and should be careful from whom you take instruction. Going to some people for population genetics information is like trying to get information about astronomy from an astrologer.

    The fact remains that in addition to prior work done by academics on certain markers, we now have ancient dna from the Balkans showing that there was genetic flow from the Caucasus/Anatolia into that region beginning not in the Bronze Age but in the Late Neolithic/Chalcolithic. Did you not read the Mathiesen paper? Now that isn't proof the same exact thing happened in Italy, but considering what we know about migration flows in the Med, I'd say it's a good bet. However, we can't be sure about anything until we get the ancient dna.

    I am warning both you and Sikelliot once and once only. Spamming of the same comment/opinion/straw man arguments over and over again without data will result in deletion of such posts and infractions. This thread is not going to turn into a repeat of the Greek paper one. You've made your points, such as they are; now move on.
    That's a very strong statement, I said some, I don't know what ancient Italian dna looks like, at the moment my guess its going to be mainly WHG like Iberian and French ancient samples (for neolithic).

    By recent I mean post Bronze Age, Iron Age/Antquity some additional later during the Medieval ages. Why should it fill you with horror? Many great civilizations came from the East, and I like the Etruscans and Minoans as well, I want to know the truth and follow the data.

    Angela it is not you who is the problem, you follow the data and are very well educated in History, your very reasonable.

    It is someone on this board who is an actual racist and has an entire website promoting his and the few that think like him ideas (I don't know how many from that site are here), which is what I don't like, they attack many ethnicities and brush off any dna input that came post Bronze Age for the majority, its just not right and fallacious. The truth is what is important, whatever the truth is, that is what should be followed.

    Yes I read the paper, I found it excellent, I think the upcoming West Asian Bronze Age paper will be important as well, I totally agree with you that ancient dna will solve most debates topics, until then we can speculate with the information we are presented with.

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    I modeled my Italian ancestry using Eurogenes 15K Euro_test_v2 by using the formula Me = 4/(2X)+ (Sephardi + Irish) = Italian score.
    I than factored out "Irish" as 25% of the total score and got this (It+J)

    Conclusions are that My Italian brings more West Med, West Asian, and Atlantic, with very minimal North Sea, while my Jewish ancestry is mixed with Eastern European, but has a much higher Red Sea score. Eastern European is not accounted for in Jewish proxy, so it distorts the Italian results. This would also mean MENA admixture will be slightly higher than calculated for (Italian).

    Results (Italian) (It + J) rounded to nearest 10th.

    East med (30) (31)
    Atlantic (16) (15)
    West med (18) (17)
    West Asian (17) (16)
    North Sea (-0.255) (2)
    East Euro (9) (7)
    Baltic (5) (4)
    Red Sea (4) (6)
    South Asian (2) (2)

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    4 out of 4 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Azzurro View Post
    That's a very strong statement, I said some, I don't know what ancient Italian dna looks like, at the moment my guess its going to be mainly WHG like Iberian and French ancient samples (for neolithic).

    By recent I mean post Bronze Age, Iron Age/Antquity some additional later during the Medieval ages. Why should it fill you with horror? Many great civilizations came from the East, and I like the Etruscans and Minoans as well, I want to know the truth and follow the data.

    Angela it is not you who is the problem, you follow the data and are very well educated in History, your very reasonable.

    It is someone on this board who is an actual racist and has an entire website promoting his and the few that think like him ideas (I don't know how many from that site are here), which is what I don't like, they attack many ethnicities and brush off any dna input that came post Bronze Age for the majority, its just not right and fallacious. The truth is what is important, whatever the truth is, that is what should be followed.

    Yes I read the paper, I found it excellent, I think the upcoming West Asian Bronze Age paper will be important as well, I totally agree with you that ancient dna will solve most debates topics, until then we can speculate with the information we are presented with.
    Actually there's no evidence that the Etruscans came from the East. They could have come from Central Europe for example.
    What data did you follow?

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    Quote Originally Posted by oreo_cookie View Post
    To those who think that the Near Eastern in southern Italy is all from the Bronze Age, explain why it (the red component) is higher in southern Italy, especially Sicily and Calabria, than in the Aegean islanders. If anything given that all of the populations, even mainland southern Balkanites, have roughly similar amounts of the Caucasian element but very different for the Near Eastern, suggests to me the former is part of the genetic base and the latter is a more recent, intrusive element.
    You are focusing too much on this very inaccurate study with a ridicolous sampling. There are several studies who had the decency of sampling actual Greeks from Greece and show a widely different scenario.

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    4 out of 4 members found this post helpful.
    Azzurro:That's a very strong statement, I said some, I don't know what ancient Italian dna looks like, at the moment my guess its going to be mainly WHG like Iberian and French ancient samples (for neolithic).
    Iberian and French? ancient Neolithic samples, or those from the Balkans, for that matter, are absolutely not mainly WHG. In the early Neolithic Balkans, the farmers from Anatolia had picked up only about 1-2% WHG. In the Central European LBK a little more. By the Middle Neolithic in Spain WHG only reached 25% in the population. The Remedello samples from northern Italy, which already show cultural influence from the steppe, have less than that and no steppe genetic influences.

    The only other ancient sample we have from Italy (other than Mesolithic), is a Bell Beaker sample from Parma. Autosomally, that sample seems to be either Northern Italian like(Bergamo), or perhaps Southern French like, or Iberian like. At any rate, certainly not anything very "steppe" like or Northern European like. Now, I know there has been additional gene flow in Italy, but precisely how much and when I don't know. At first glance it doesn't seem that the change has been very drastic in Parma, although Emilia plots south of Bergamo. What we need is ancient dna from Polada, Terramare, Villanova, Gaudo, Rinaldone, the Ligurians, the Latins, the Umbrians, the Italic tribes of the south, the tribes of Sicily, the Greek settlers of the south, the Etruscans, the Veneti, the Langobardi, the Byzantines, and the locals pre-and-post the Germanic invasions, the Gothic War, and the Saracens.

    We have none of those: nothing from around Rome, nothing from southern Italy, nothing from Sicily. We have lots of modern uniparental data, which has often led population geneticists astray in other areas, but even that is often not very resolved for non-R1b lineages.

    We won't get all of those, but without a good bit of it we won't really know what happened.

    How, just to give a few examples, can we know that Roman slavery totally changed or even very significantly changed the autosomal signature of Southern Italians when we don't have a single sample of, say, a poor person from before the Republican Era for comparison.

    Who, with any sense, or knowledge of the relevant history or archaeology, or even uniparental
    markers, would believe that fool on Eurogenes today, who is either a sock or a reinforcement from Stormfront or sites like it, when he says that the entire population of my father's Po Valley was liquidated and replaced by Lombards! Emilia is 60% R1b U-152. We don't know much about the Lombards, but given where they came from I'll be very surprised if it turns out they were a majority U-152 population. We do know that they spoke a Germanic language, and we speak a Gallo-Romance language. I mean, did this guy leave academics behind at 12, and learn history from a Stormfront coloring book?

    I could go on and on, but I hope I've said enough so you understand that there are a lot of charlatans around promoting baseless, unproven, and often deliberate distortions of fact not solely out of ignorance, although there's a lot of that, but out of sick, twisted, personal and racist agendas.

    One word of advice: don't believe anything written on sites like forum biodiversity or theapricity until you've checked it from all possible angles yourself.

    I really recommend Razib Khan's article, and you can find lots of threads on all sorts of Italian genetics issues through our search engine.

    Ed. I just heard that someone on Eurogenes said southern Italians are darker and more "exotic" than Sardinians! SARDINIANS!!!!!!!!!! Honestly, do some people never leave their own countries? They live under a rock? You can't make this freaking stuff up.
    Last edited by Angela; 19-05-17 at 06:09.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    They are not, why should they be pretty much the same? They have never been.
    You're right, and LeBrok's chart further supports that Greek Islanders are different. I thought they were the same, but I was ignorant. I'll admit that.
    mmmmmmmmm dooouuughhhnuuuutz

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by oreo_cookie View Post
    To those who think that the Near Eastern in southern Italy is all from the Bronze Age, explain why it (the red component) is higher in southern Italy, especially Sicily and Calabria, than in the Aegean islanders. If anything given that all of the populations, even mainland southern Balkanites, have roughly similar amounts of the Caucasian element but very different for the Near Eastern, suggests to me the former is part of the genetic base and the latter is a more recent, intrusive element.
    Why not? Maybe Aegeans received further CHG-rich gene flow from Western Anatolia at some point. Their inflated CHG compared to both Southern Italy and Greece/Balkans could be responsible for their shrunken near-eastern component, which would otherwise fall in line nicely with Southern Italians.
    Actually Crete already looks comparable in near-eastern affinity to several SI samples (e.g. Trapani, Matera, Lecce, etc.), and this with all its extra Caucasus-related stuff.
    However this is just one of the possible scenarios and I have no strong opinion about this anyway; also making this kind of broad assumptions based on modern populations with their complex history and background is rather silly and inconclusive. We simply need more ancient genomes to get the full picture.

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    So you guys say that mainland Greeks are different from those in the islands? What is the difference exactly and what is the origin of each group?

    Also, you need to recall that Greece has among the roughest terrains in Europe and people tended to marry within their local societies.

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    3 out of 4 members found this post helpful.
    Principe, there are not genetic evidences of recent MENA ancestors in Italy.

    From the new Sarno paper:
    "Besides a predominant Neolithic background, we identify traces of Post-Neolithic Levantine- and Caucasus-related ancestries, compatible with maritime Bronze-Age migrations."


    And Sarno 2014:
    "Together with the Berber E-M81, the occurrence of the Near-Eastern J1-M267 in Southern-European populations has been linked to population movements from the Near East through North-Africa, and particularly as a marker of the Islamic expansion over Southern-Europe (started approximately in the 8th century AD and lasted for more than 500 years). Fisher exact tests based on HGs frequencies have revealed the presence of haplogroup J1-M267 at significantly higher frequencies in both North-Africa and the Levant than in Sicily and Southern Italy (both P-values<0.001). However, the estimated age for Sicilian and Southern-Italian J1 haplotypes refers to the end of the Bronze Age (32611345 YBP), thus suggesting more ancient contributions from the East. Nevertheless, our time estimate does not necessarily coincide with the time of arrival of J1 in SSI; in fact a pre-existing differentiation could potentially backdate the time estimate here obtained.
    ...
    However, sub-lineages of haplogroup J2 have been also associated with the Neolithic colonization of mainland Greece, Crete and Southern Italy [52], and our TMRCA estimates for J2-subhaplogroups (ranging from 32711157 YBP to 37671332 YBP) cannot exclude an earlier arrival of at least some of the J2 chromosomes in Sicily and Southern-Italy during Neolithic times."


    And Graham and Coop 2013:
    "A notable exception is that nearly all populations showed no significant heterogeneity of numbers of common ancestors with Italian samples, suggesting that most common ancestors shared with Italy lived longer ago than the time that structure within modern-day countries formed.
    ...
    There is relatively little common ancestry shared between the Italian peninsula and other locations, and what there is seems to derive mostly from longer ago than 2,500 ya. An exception is that Italy and the neighboring Balkan populations share small but significant numbers of common ancestors in the last 1,500 years, as seen in Figures S16 and S17S17."
    Sicilians and mainlander Southern Italian phenotype galleries.

    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/1111/Re-Groups-of-Sicilians
    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/375/Southern-italians-how-we-really-look

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    Quote Originally Posted by oreo_cookie View Post
    To those who think that the Near Eastern in southern Italy is all from the Bronze Age, explain why it (the red component) is higher in southern Italy, especially Sicily and Calabria, than in the Aegean islanders. If anything given that all of the populations, even mainland southern Balkanites, have roughly similar amounts of the Caucasian element but very different for the Near Eastern, suggests to me the former is part of the genetic base and the latter is a more recent, intrusive element.

    Why not? Maybe Aegeans received further CHG-rich gene flow from Western Anatolia at some point. Their somewhat inflated CHG compared to both Southern Italy and Greece/Balkans could be responsible for their shrunken near-eastern component, which would otherwise fall in line nicely with Southern Italians.
    Actually Crete already looks on par in near-east affinity with several SI samples (e.g. Trapani, Matera, Lecce, etc.) despite its extra Caucasus-related input.
    However this is just one of the possible scenarios and I have no strong opinion about this either way; also making this kind of broad assumptions based on modern populations with their multiple layers/complex unattested (for the most part) background is silly and ultimately inconclusive. We simply need more ancient genomes to get the full picture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diomedes View Post
    So you guys say that mainland Greeks are different from those in the islands? What is the difference exactly and what is the origin of each group?

    Also, you need to recall that Greece has among the roughest terrains in Europe and people tended to marry within their local societies.
    Here is what I have. We can see 3 distinct populations in Greece, Mainland, Islanders and Cyprus.

    My hypothesis is that Greek Islanders represent Greek populations before Slavic and others from North migrated to Greece Mainland. Before that Greece mainland was looking similar to today's Islanders. Cyprus might represent even more ancient Levant Neolithic Farmer population, mixed with BA from Anatolia.

    More Caucasian and SW Asian, the more Near Eastern/Anatolian Influence. More NE Euro represents Steppe and Slavic invasions. More Med represents EEF influence. Baloch is from Iran/Armenia or Steppe.

    Europeans # of samples S-Indian Baloch Caucasian NE-Euro SE-Asian Siberian NE-Asian Papuan American Beringian Mediterranean SW-Asian San E-African Pygmy W-African
    Greek, mainland 3 0 6 32 25 0 0 0 0 0 0 26 11 0 0 0 0 100
    Greek, Islands, East 5 0 9 38 14 0 0 1 0 0 0 23 14 0 0 0 0 100
    Cyprus 4 1 10 44 6 1 0 0 0 0 0 20 17 0 0 0 0 100
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Here is what I have. We can see 3 distinct populations in Greece, Mainland, Islanders and Cyprus.

    My hypothesis is that Greek Islanders represent Greek populations before Slavic and others from North migrated to Greece Mainland. Before that Greece mainland was looking similar to today's Islanders. Cyprus might represent even more ancient Levant Neolithic Farmer population, mixed with BA from Anatolia.

    More Caucasian and SW Asian, the more Near Eastern/Anatolian Influence. More NE Euro represents Steppe and Slavic invasions. More Med represents EEF influence. Baloch is from Iran/Armenia or Steppe.

    Europeans # of samples S-Indian Baloch Caucasian NE-Euro SE-Asian Siberian NE-Asian Papuan American Beringian Mediterranean SW-Asian San E-African Pygmy W-African
    Greek, mainland 3 0 6 32 25 0 0 0 0 0 0 26 11 0 0 0 0 100
    Greek, Islands, East 5 0 9 38 14 0 0 1 0 0 0 23 14 0 0 0 0 100
    Cyprus 4 1 10 44 6 1 0 0 0 0 0 20 17 0 0 0 0 100
    I have only 3 Greek Mainland samples. We need more, especially from Greek Makedonia and Peloponnese. If someone has ancestry from this area PM me your GedMatch kit number, please. :)

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    I have only 3 Greek Mainland samples. We need more, especially from Greek Makedonia and Peloponnese. If someone has ancestry from this area PM me your GedMatch kit number, please. :)
    An American-Greek guy, he is fully Greek, both his parents are from Corinthia, Peloponnese, Greece.


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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by harena View Post
    Why not? Maybe Aegeans received further CHG-rich gene flow from Western Anatolia at some point. Their somewhat inflated CHG compared to both Southern Italy and Greece/Balkans could be responsible for their shrunken near-eastern component, which would otherwise fall in line nicely with Southern Italians.
    I could see this being the case and the genetics certainly suggest it, but when would that migration have happened, exactly? Keep in mind also that the Aegean islands sample has Cypriot-levels of Caucasian but nowhere near their Near Eastern. As for what LeBrok said, I highly doubt mainland Greece was ever quite like that sample, and for this to be true, Greeks on the mainland would have to have a much larger Slavic component than what seems likely.

    As for Crete, if you look at the individual admixture chart (rather than the averages) you see a few interesting things. Trapani is even more distinct from the rest of Sicily, than Crete is from the rest of Sicily, and the Cretans may be closer to the Sicilians/Calabrese than to the Aegean islanders in the other components even factoring in the Caucasus influence being slightly higher. But some of the Sicilians have almost none of the blue European component (see a few bars from Catania, Ragusa, and Palermo) which is also true of the Aegean islands sample but not the Cretan one.


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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Iberian and French? ancient Neolithic samples, or those from the Balkans, for that matter, are absolutely not mainly WHG. In the early Neolithic Balkans, the farmers from Anatolia had picked up only about 1-2% WHG. In the Central European LBK a little more. By the Middle Neolithic in Spain WHG only reached 25% in the population. The Remedello samples from northern Italy, which already show cultural influence from the steppe, have less than that and no steppe genetic influences.

    The only other ancient sample we have from Italy (other than Mesolithic), is a Bell Beaker sample from Parma. Autosomally, that sample seems to be either Northern Italian like(Bergamo), or perhaps Southern French like, or Iberian like. At any rate, certainly not anything very "steppe" like or Northern European like. Now, I know there has been additional gene flow in Italy, but precisely how much and when I don't know. At first glance it doesn't seem that the change has been very drastic in Parma, although Emilia plots south of Bergamo. What we need is ancient dna from Polada, Terramare, Villanova, Gaudo, Rinaldone, the Ligurians, the Latins, the Umbrians, the Italic tribes of the south, the tribes of Sicily, the Greek settlers of the south, the Etruscans, the Veneti, the Langobardi, the Byzantines, and the locals pre-and-post the Germanic invasions, the Gothic War, and the Saracens.

    We have none of those: nothing from around Rome, nothing from southern Italy, nothing from Sicily. We have lots of modern uniparental data, which has often led population geneticists astray in other areas, but even that is often not very resolved for non-R1b lineages.

    We won't get all of those, but without a good bit of it we won't really know what happened.

    How, just to give a few examples, can we know that Roman slavery totally changed or even very significantly changed the autosomal signature of Southern Italians when we don't have a single sample of, say, a poor person from before the Republican Era for comparison.

    Who, with any sense, or knowledge of the relevant history or archaeology, or even uniparental
    markers, would believe that fool on Eurogenes today, who is either a sock or a reinforcement from Stormfront or sites like it, when he says that the entire population of my father's Po Valley was liquidated and replaced by Lombards! Emilia is 60% R1b U-152. We don't know much about the Lombards, but given where they came from I'll be very surprised if it turns out they were a majority U-152 population. We do know that they spoke a Germanic language, and we speak a Gallo-Romance language. I mean, did this guy leave academics behind at 12, and learn history from a Stormfront coloring book?

    I could go on and on, but I hope I've said enough so you understand that there are a lot of charlatans around promoting baseless, unproven, and often deliberate distortions of fact not solely out of ignorance, although there's a lot of that, but out of sick, twisted, personal and racist agendas.

    One word of advice: don't believe anything written on sites like forum biodiversity or theapricity until you've checked it from all possible angles yourself.

    I really recommend Razib Khan's article, and you can find lots of threads on all sorts of Italian genetics issues through our search engine.

    Ed. I just heard that someone on Eurogenes said southern Italians are darker and more "exotic" than Sardinians! SARDINIANS!!!!!!!!!! Honestly, do some people never leave their own countries? They live under a rock? You can't make this freaking stuff up.
    Eurogenes is filled with many crazies, I like to going on that site for the papers and get a good chuckle at the comments, Sardegna as you know as well is probably the best representation of Neolithic Europeans, crazy comments about Sardinia should just be ignored.

    I listened to your suggestion and read the recent Razib Khan article, it was a very good read. He brought up many good points, and he is unbiased, which is a good thing. It still doesn't change my opinion that there was some gene flow (we cannot know forsure how much) during the Roman Period. When I talk about gene flow during this period it is not only restricted to Southern Italy, but the entire Peninsula and Sicily.

    I think your statement about the charlatans, racist agendas and the rest of the sentence, is well said, I have noticed from the start that there is many people with obvious agendas, hai detto bene Angela.

    In terms of your advice, I base most of my ideas off of what I noticed and my personal research, but my main interest is and always was Y dna, I am less knowledgeable in autosomal, in terms of the Caucasian autosomal I would think majority is due to Copper and Bronze Age Migrations, some is later. The one thing that so far no one has given in my opinion is the high East Mediterranean found in Southern Italians and Sicilians, the levels of which it is found suggest some post Bronze Age gene flow from the area. I am not going to base it off my results when I look at Eurogenes K36 spreadsheet for all populations I am 5-6% higher than the average Italian which makes me an outlier in this aspect, but the average Southern Italian and Sicilian are getting East Med% the same as Greek Islanders, Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews. You see what I am talking about there is something to it.

    I would never believe a comment that suggests that the Lombards replaced the population of the Po Valley, U152 is clearly an Italic line.

    The argument at least I make is that there was some gene flow from Roman slavery and it is not specific only to the East Mediterranean, though to answer your question or statement that you mentioned with West Asian and Levantine slaves were only specifically brought to Southern Italy as an argument by some on other forums, I don't think it was only restricted to this area, there is 2 reasons for me one is logical and the other is an example that it could have happened and why Southern Italy. At the time Southern Italy was still vastly Greek speaking, it would make sense for slave owners of the South to get Greek speaking slaves and the East Med, Anatolia, Egypt and Greece/Aegean were Greek speaking in the sense it was like a lingua franca. The second point which I even made on Anthrogenica is take the example of the first Serville War, the leader of the Slave revolt was Eunus a Syrian slave and his partner was Cleon a slave from Cilicia, so we know that Eastern Mediterranean slaves were present at least during this period, how much? We cannot know. Was it only restricted to Southern Italy, definitely not.

    You forgot one and its the Castelluccio Culture. Yes getting various ancient samples from Italy from different cultures and civilizations will be the best way to fully know what actually happened.

    In terms of when I said Iberian and French I also meant to say in terms of Y, I would think neolithic Italy would have been I2, G2a and T1a. It would be curious now to see how similar or how different was Copper Age Italy to Copper Age Balkans.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hauteville View Post
    Principe, there are not genetic evidences of recent MENA ancestors in Italy.

    From the new Sarno paper:
    "Besides a predominant Neolithic background, we identify traces of Post-Neolithic Levantine- and Caucasus-related ancestries, compatible with maritime Bronze-Age migrations."


    And Sarno 2014:
    "Together with the Berber E-M81, the occurrence of the Near-Eastern J1-M267 in Southern-European populations has been linked to population movements from the Near East through North-Africa, and particularly as a marker of the Islamic expansion over Southern-Europe (started approximately in the 8th century AD and lasted for more than 500 years). Fisher exact tests based on HGs frequencies have revealed the presence of haplogroup J1-M267 at significantly higher frequencies in both North-Africa and the Levant than in Sicily and Southern Italy (both P-values<0.001). However, the estimated age for Sicilian and Southern-Italian J1 haplotypes refers to the end of the Bronze Age (3261�1345 YBP), thus suggesting more ancient contributions from the East. Nevertheless, our time estimate does not necessarily coincide with the time of arrival of J1 in SSI; in fact a pre-existing differentiation could potentially backdate the time estimate here obtained.
    ...
    However, sub-lineages of haplogroup J2 have been also associated with the Neolithic colonization of mainland Greece, Crete and Southern Italy [52], and our TMRCA estimates for J2-subhaplogroups (ranging from 3271�1157 YBP to 3767�1332 YBP) cannot exclude an earlier arrival of at least some of the J2 chromosomes in Sicily and Southern-Italy during Neolithic times."


    And Graham and Coop 2013:
    "A notable exception is that nearly all populations showed no significant heterogeneity of numbers of common ancestors with Italian samples, suggesting that most common ancestors shared with Italy lived longer ago than the time that structure within modern-day countries formed.
    ...
    There is relatively little common ancestry shared between the Italian peninsula and other locations, and what there is seems to derive mostly from longer ago than 2,500 ya. An exception is that Italy and the neighboring Balkan populations share small but significant numbers of common ancestors in the last 1,500 years, as seen in Figures S16 and S17S17."
    First off I am Azzurro on Eupedia, on Anthrogenica I am Principe. Secondly that Sarno 2014 is not really a good one use or quote in this case, he uses str's to estimate entire haplogroups which is not going to be accurate, there is many subclades of E, J1 and J2, and Italy has almost all of them, varying from being either vary rare to somewhat popular, if you want an accurate Y age estimate I suggest looking at snp's to make a decent argument, and even at that only ngs testing will be the best method. All three haplogroups that you quoted are too diverse to even suggest a possible estimate, in fact impossible.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by A. Papadimitriou View Post
    Actually there's no evidence that the Etruscans came from the East. They could have come from Central Europe for example.
    What data did you follow?
    This is not the place to discuss Etruscans origins as it is off topic to the subject, if you want to know my opinion go on Anthrogenica and go on the J2 in Southern Italy thread. My main arguments deal with religious customs and language.

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