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Thread: Are Central Greeks and Peloponnese Greeks clustered with Cretans/Greek Islanders?

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    Regular Member Beelzebub's Avatar
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    Are Central Greeks and Peloponnese Greeks clustered with Cretans/Greek Islanders?

    Are Central Greeks and Peloponnese Greeks autosomally clustered with Cretans/ and non Cypriot Greek Islanders?

    Eurogenes K13 Averages has a "Central Greek" average and that puts them in autosomal range of Sicilians/Southern Italians and Ashkenazim Jews.

    Sicilians/Southern Italians and Ashkenazim Jews have been shown to have close genetic affinity to Greek Islanders.
    Does anyone have good regional autosomal data on Central Greeks and Peloponnese Greeks?



    Central Greek Eurogenes K13 Averages:

    North Atlantic - 16.86
    Baltic - 10.38
    West Med - 21.47
    West Asian - 15.44
    East Med - 29.25
    Red Sea - 5.03
    South Asian - 0.29
    East Asian - 0.24
    Siberian - 0.14
    Amerindian - 0.32
    Oceanian - 0.56
    North-East African - 0.03
    Sub-Saharan African - 0.01

    East Sicilian

    North Atlantic - 16.46
    Baltic - 9.03
    West Med - 21.26
    West Asian - 13.83
    East Med - 29.91
    Red Sea - 6.26
    South Asian - 0.67
    East Asian - 0.11
    Siberian - 0.04
    Amerindian - 0.17
    Oceanian - 0.38
    North-East African - 1.37
    Sub-Saharan African - 0.56

    South Italian

    North Atlantic - 16.72
    Baltic - 5.91
    West Med - 22.77
    West Asian - 15.02
    East Med - 31.82
    Red Sea - 5.12
    South Asian - 0.66
    East Asian - 0.08
    Siberian - 0.17
    Amerindian - 0.53
    Oceanian - 0.23
    North-East African - 0.44
    Sub-Saharan African - 0.53

    Ashkenazi Jews

    North Atlantic - 15.31
    Baltic - 10.15
    West Med - 18.44
    West Asian - 10.28
    East Med - 34.60
    Red Sea - 5.98
    South Asian - 1.04
    East Asian - 0.79
    Siberian - 0.97
    Amerindian - 0.46
    Oceanian - 0.29
    North-East African - 1.14
    Sub-Saharan African - 0.50

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    Regular Member Diomedes's Avatar
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    Even if they do not cluster (which I reckon it ain't true), what matters the most is culture and common traits.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diomedes View Post
    Even if they do not cluster (which I reckon it ain't true), what matters the most is culture and common traits.
    Hard to imagine that a tiny distance from The Peloponnese and Crete could possibly separate a seafaring people that are culturally and linguistically bridged, into distinct genetic clusters.
    I would say the genetic difference between Peloponnesian's and Cretan's is no more pronounced than the difference between Sicilians and Maltese.

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    Advisor Angela's Avatar
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    One hypothesis is that prior to the Slavic invasions the populations of Crete and the other islands were much more similar to those of the mainland, since those invasions would have had more of an effect on the mainland. I think that's logical and supported by the evidence.

    On the other hand, there were other migrations which might have differentially affected the mainland, such as the Goths or even any northern shifted "steppe" group. Then, the islands, being closer to Anatolia, might have a bit more of that ancestry, although mitigating against that is the fact that there has been constant and continuing contacts between the islands and many parts of the mainland.

    So, I'm waiting for the ancient DNA.

    If you haven't already, you might want to take a look at the thread on the recent paper on Greek genetics. Just use the search engine to find it.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    One hypothesis is that prior to the Slavic invasions the populations of Crete and the other islands were much more similar to those of the mainland, since those invasions would have had more of an effect on the mainland. I think that's logical and supported by the evidence.

    On the other hand, there were other migrations which might have differentially affected the mainland, such as the Goths or even any northern shifted "steppe" group. Then, the islands, being closer to Anatolia, might have a bit more of that ancestry, although mitigating against that is the fact that there has been constant and continuing contacts between the islands and many parts of the mainland.

    So, I'm waiting for the ancient DNA.

    If you haven't already, you might want to take a look at the thread on the recent paper on Greek genetics. Just use the search engine to find it.
    I briefly reviewed the paper on the Genetics of the peloponnesean populations and the theory of extinction of the medieval peloponnesean Greeks.
    Sequencing ancient Greek autosomal DNA is really key to answering some very lingering questions on the origins of the Greek Genome.

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    The "Central Greek" sample is a mixed bag and has some islanders in it too from what I recall (I could be misremembering but the 'geographical' name tells one little either way). It's well-established that Italy runs on a cline and mainland Greece is probably the same too, considering there wasn't a recent population expansion there either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LATGAL View Post
    The "Central Greek" sample is a mixed bag and has some islanders in it too from what I recall (I could be misremembering but the 'geographical' name tells one little either way). It's well-established that Italy runs on a cline and mainland Greece is probably the same too, considering there wasn't a recent population expansion there either.
    One would hope that "Central Greek" samples wouldn't have Greek Islanders in the sample, other than perhaps Evia.
    Regardless, the Peloponnese is not Central Greece, and is southern mainland Greece.
    I think it's clear that the Peloponnese population cluster with Sicilians and a good chunk of Southern mainland Italians, rather than with Southern Slavic populations.
    I'm not sure on where the bulk of "Central Greeks" cluster.
    Probably a mixed bag and bridge between Sicilians/Southern Italians and Southern Slavic populations.

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    No, Mainland Greece clusters with Central Italy, Tuscany, Albania, and Bulgaria. The islands (Crete, Cyprus, ect.) cluster with Jews and Southern Italians. Overall, they form a cluster, but its really two micro clusters within a macro cluster....

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    Quote Originally Posted by New Englander View Post
    No, Mainland Greece clusters with Central Italy, Tuscany, Albania, and Bulgaria. The islands (Crete, Cyprus, ect.) cluster with Jews and Southern Italians. Overall, they form a cluster, but its really two micro clusters within a macro cluster....
    Below are the Greek Cypriot samples from Eurogenes K13.
    By "Jews," I'm assuming that you mean Ashkenazi Jews?
    I don't see much in the way of "clustering" in these 2 population averages.
    I don't agree with that at all, at least not including Cypriots in your post.
    And we really need to define "Central Greece" too.
    The Peloponnese is mainland Southern Greece, and I don't believe they cluster with Central Italy, Tuscany, Albania, and Bulgaria.
    The Peloponnese populations share genetic affinity with the Sicilians/Southern Italians and Ashkenazi Jews.

    Greek Cypriot

    North Atlantic - 5.67
    Baltic - 2.81
    West Med - 19.86
    West Asian - 20.34
    East Med - 41.08
    Red Sea - 8.17
    South Asian - 0.50
    East Asian - 0.07
    Siberian - 0.23
    Amerindian - 0.00
    Oceanian - 0.47
    North-East African - 0.30
    Sub-Saharan African - 0.54

    Ashkenazi Jews

    North Atlantic - 15.31
    Baltic - 10.15
    West Med - 18.44
    West Asian - 10.28
    East Med - 34.60
    Red Sea - 5.98
    South Asian - 1.04
    East Asian - 0.79
    Siberian - 0.97
    Amerindian - 0.46
    Oceanian - 0.29
    North-East African - 1.14
    Sub-Saharan African - 0.50

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    Quote Originally Posted by New Englander View Post
    No, Mainland Greece clusters with Central Italy, Tuscany, Albania, and Bulgaria. The islands (Crete, Cyprus, ect.) cluster with Jews and Southern Italians. Overall, they form a cluster, but its really two micro clusters within a macro cluster....
    Greek Thessalians are somewhat closer to Tuscans (the Tuscan dot is based on southern Tuscans though), but not the rest of Greek mainlanders.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Greek Thessalians are somewhat closer to Tuscans (the Tuscan dot is based on southern Tuscans though), but not the rest of Greek mainlanders.

    That makes perfect sense to me.
    Plenty of autosomal DNA studies support your post.

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    Advisor Angela's Avatar
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    Pax is correct. In no PCA I've ever seen do any Greeks,not even those from Thessaly, cluster with Tuscans although the ones from Thessaly are pretty close. Still, they're south and east of the Tuscans.

    New Englander's post is just a continuation of theapricity twaddle. Even the new Sarno paper with its NatGeo samples from only the northern Peloponnesus doesn't support the assertions in that post. Feel free to ignore, imo

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    So than its:

    Spain
    Portugal
    Northern Italy
    Sardinia

    Bulgaria
    Tuscany
    Central Italy
    Thessalians
    Albania

    Central greece
    Ashkenazi
    South Italians/West Sicily
    Crete / Sparta
    East Sicily/Sephardi Jews

    Cyprus/Anatolian Greeks


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    Quote Originally Posted by New Englander View Post
    So than its:

    Spain
    Portugal
    Northern Italy
    Sardinia

    Bulgaria
    Tuscany
    Central Italy
    Thessalians
    Albania

    Central greece
    Ashkenazi
    South Italians/West Sicily
    Crete / Sparta
    East Sicily/Sephardi Jews

    Cyprus/Anatolian Greeks

    Reads like a well compiled list to me.
    As new data comes in, it's not likely to shift much.

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    Advisor Angela's Avatar
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    @NE

    Stop trying to order populations based on two dimensional PCA's which only capture a fraction of genetic variability because that's all you understand. (I'll take that back: you only think you understand them.)

    Get back on topic, and reread both the Sarno paper and the paper on Peloponnesian genetics. I'll repeat what I've said: Anyone who distorts or cherry picks data is out of here.

    As for Spain and Potugal, let's revisit it on the proper thread when the sample for Spain isn't based on Catalonia and perhaps the part of Andalusia which was heavily resettled from the north.

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    "Slavic ancestry of Peloponnesean subpopulations ranges from 0.2 to 14.4%. Subpopulations considered by Fallmerayer to be Slavic tribes or to have Near Eastern origin, have no significant ancestry of either. This study rejects the theory of extinction of medieval Peloponneseans and illustrates how genetics can clarify important aspects of the history of a human population".

    meaning some are more Bulgarian like, while others are more Sicilian like.....

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    The question at hand is: Do Central Greeks and Peloponnesus Greeks cluster with Cretans and Greek Islanders. Any off topic posts will be summarily deleted. If it becomes clear to me this is a ***** thread I'll close it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Pax is correct. In no PCA I've ever seen do any Greeks,not even those from Thessaly, cluster with Tuscans although the ones from Thessaly are pretty close. Still, they're south and east of the Tuscans.
    Yes, Tuscans and Thessalians don't cluster together, are somewhat closer but Thessalians are always more east. That map uses the HGDP sample, TSI30, another Tuscan sample, is a bit closer to North Italy.

    Quote Originally Posted by New Englander View Post
    So than its:

    Spain
    Portugal
    Northern Italy
    Sardinia

    Bulgaria
    Tuscany
    Central Italy
    Thessalians
    Albania

    Central greece
    Ashkenazi
    South Italians/West Sicily
    Crete / Sparta
    East Sicily/Sephardi Jews

    Cyprus/Anatolian Greeks

    That map is based on Eurogenes K15, Sardinians in a PCA are usually more outlying than that. Northern Italian in that map is Bergamo, North Italy is more diverse than that, Northeastern Italians can be in that map intermediate between the North Italian and Serbian dots. Abruzzo is more Southern Italian or Central-Southern Italian rather than properly Central Italian.

    Quote Originally Posted by New Englander View Post
    "Slavic ancestry of Peloponnesean subpopulations ranges from 0.2 to 14.4%. Subpopulations considered by Fallmerayer to be Slavic tribes or to have Near Eastern origin, have no significant ancestry of either. This study rejects the theory of extinction of medieval Peloponneseans and illustrates how genetics can clarify important aspects of the history of a human population".
    It's a range, not all Peloponneseans have 14.4 of Slavic ancestry, it's just their peak according to the paper.

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    Regular Member New Englander's Avatar
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    But I would expect the less Slavic, the more West Asian. That is the range, what is the mode?

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    I don't understand why so many people seem to care.

    Either way my prediction is that Classical Greeks would be more Southern shifted than modern 'mainland' Greeks but the possible movements from North, West and East are many.

    'Anatolian Greeks' are not uniform, btw. We saw that even Peloponnesians aren't.

    The most important difference between various Greek groups is the East European admixture, which is brought by non-Greeks imo but it isn't correct to attribute all of it to Slavs either. (We know that there were Thracians in Greek Macedonia and now we are seeing that the Steppe component -which imo has nothing to do with IE- arrives early in East Balkans)

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    Moderator Pax Augusta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by New Englander View Post
    But I would expect the less Slavic, the more West Asian.
    Why? I don't get the problem.

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    The range for Slavic is 1-14% correct? Well, I would assume its regional. SO what is the mode? Now, if it is not regional, would we suspect to find individuals with 14% Slavic, and an elevated West Asian level? I would assume those with elevated Slavic ancestry, to have lesser amounts of West Asian, while the more Sicilian like individuals to have less Slavic, hence why they cluster with Sicilians....

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    Quote Originally Posted by New Englander View Post
    So than its:

    Spain
    Portugal
    Northern Italy
    Sardinia

    Bulgaria
    Tuscany
    Central Italy
    Thessalians
    Albania

    Central greece
    Ashkenazi
    South Italians/West Sicily
    Crete / Sparta
    East Sicily/Sephardi Jews

    Cyprus/Anatolian Greeks

    I'm not sure what this is supposed to be about, exactly. Sardinians in particular are a highly drifted and genetically 'special' population.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LATGAL View Post
    I'm not sure what this is supposed to be about, exactly. Sardinians in particular are a highly drifted and genetically 'special' population.
    You beat me to it. The Sardinians don't really cluster with anyone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    You beat me to it. The Sardinians don't really cluster with anyone.

    don't be so sure,

    I am expecting a group from Greece to be next to them,
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