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Thread: bronze age sidon {lebanon dna paper}

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    Quote Originally Posted by holderlin View Post
    I wasn't talking about you specifically and I've said before that I understand the general resistance to anything that supports the old pseudo-scientific racism, but it does get annoying when I'm reluctant to bring up certain pieces of evidence.
    Why should you be reluctant to bring it up? The fact that an idea is supported by racists doesn't necessarily mean it's wrong; it just means that if the "facts" are presented by known racists with an agenda, then they're what we call "impeached" witnesses, and their claims have to be carefully examined to make sure they are indeed accurate.

    In this particular context, of course the Sea Peoples could have come from more north in the Balkans originally and thus could have carried some of this ancestry. The operative words are "could have". The Sea Peoples could also have come from Crete, or Sicily, or Sardinia. How much would they have had? Different groups might have gone to different places.

    We just don't know. That's why Tomenable's comment was so over the top, but utterly predictable at the same time. That's why it has gotten a negative response. We can't possibly assume that the ones who went to the Levant had large amounts of this kind of ancestry. It's certainly possible, of course. Nor can we assume the Sea People's brought all of it even if they had a lot of it, given all the Greek and Roman influx into the area.

    That's it; I fail to see how it's illogical or agenda driven in any way.


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  2. #52
    MarkoZ
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    That seems to be in line with their 7%, yes? If half of their "Yamnaya" is CHG then NE Euro as a proxy at 3% would also work. Given the purported lack of WHG it would all be EHG presumably.
    Does that really work, though? Wouldn't the East European component absorb other non-EHG admixtures? And wouldn't the historical presence of Greeks, Romans, Crusaders and Sea Peoples have imparted at least some WHG of European derivation on the Lebanese population?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Why should you be reluctant to bring it up? The fact that an idea is supported by racists doesn't necessarily mean it's wrong; it just means that if the "facts" are presented by known racists with an agenda, then they're what we call "impeached" witnesses, and their claims have to be carefully examined to make sure they are indeed accurate.

    In this particular context, of course the Sea Peoples could have come from more north in the Balkans originally and thus could have carried some of this ancestry. The operative words are "could have". The Sea Peoples could also have come from Crete, or Sicily, or Sardinia. How much would they have had? Different groups might have gone to different places.

    We just don't know. That's why Tomenable's comment was so over the top, but utterly predictable at the same time. That's why it has gotten a negative response. We can't possibly assume that the ones who went to the Levant had large amounts of this kind of ancestry. It's certainly possible, of course. Nor can we assume the Sea People's brought all of it even if they had a lot of it, given all the Greek and Roman influx into the area.

    That's it; I fail to see how it's illogical or agenda driven in any way.
    The facts are that there is a ton of evidence tracing the source of the BAC migrations to Europe, and the fact that Tomenable's post ellicited such a response is only proof of my comment that people on here get sensitive about certain claims, BUT, I also said that I understand why. And I also know that other sites are full of racists that pounce on anything opposed to a migrations of a white master race from North East Europe to explain anything to do with IEs.

    As I said, the Sea Peoples were only one historically attested group involved in the BAC. This was mostly in Egyptian records as well so we would be wise to assume that this was only a fraction of the whole of migrations of people laying waste to the Levant and Anatolia.

    We have all sorts of what appear to be Central European and definitely Aegean stuff in and above ash layers associated with BAC destruction in several Levantine cities.

    Remember that the first real slashing weapons come out of the Aegean at around this time. I don't think that is a coincidence.
    Last edited by holderlin; 29-05-17 at 04:51.

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    there is a new study to be published from the Ghasulian, the Levant chalcolithic
    this population would have dissapeared and not be part of the bronze age populations

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghassulian

    http://sohp.fas.harvard.edu/files/sh...s_10.29.16.pdf


    it looks like that also the Levant experienced many successive waves of replacement, but till late bronze age the origin of the replacements seem to be coming from more or less the same directions (haplo J with CHG components)
    the people of the BAC clearly came from another direction

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-V13>CTS9320>Z38456

    Ethnic group
    Albanian
    Country: Switzerland



    So from which direction do you think did haplogroup J mostly come from?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Right, by standards of this paper modern Lebanese might be easily descendents of BA Armenians, as they have similar amount of same admixtures. Had they use more detailed/simpler admixtures, we would have known right away.
    Actually I do think that an Ido-Europeanised population from further east in West Asia, probably an Indo-Iranian tribe like the Persian, did contribute a great deal to the genetics of the modern Levant. How else to explain all the R1a-Z93, R1b-Z2103 and Q1b1? Not to mention the Steppe/EHG admixture that we now know was absent until at least c. 1600 BCE in the Levant.

    I have modern Lebanese in HarappaWorld and they only show about 5% of what could come from Steppe/EHG/WHG. (NE Euro is at 3%)
    What European admixture do they have except NE Euro? Do they have a bit of Siberian/Central Asian admixture that we could link to Q1b1?
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I-S185
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2b

    Ethnic group
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    Country: Italy



    The question is: do those Canaanites be a good proxy for ancient Phoenician navigators of they were alterated by Sea Peoples?or they were just Sea Peoples who returned westward?or modern Lebanese are a proxy for ancient Phoenicians? A rebus without certain aDNA.
    Sicilians and mainlander Southern Italian phenotype galleries.

    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/1111/Re-Groups-of-Sicilians
    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/375/Southern-italians-how-we-really-look

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nik View Post
    So from which direction do you think did haplogroup J mostly come from?
    IMO haplo J was in Epigravettian Tanscaucasia during LGM and from there expanded into the Zagros Mts during mesolithic, but this Epigravettian was also spotted in some places in mesolithic Anatolia
    from the Zagros they expanded south and west to the Taurus Mts as herders during the early neolithic, some probably even got east across the Iranian platteau into the Indus Valley
    they seem also related to some chalcolithic expansions from the Zagros Mts, so by the bronze age they were in many places

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    Quote Originally Posted by holderlin View Post
    I wasn't going to trace it that far North, mainly because people on here get sensitive about anything to do with a North-South trajectory in general, but there's definitely evidence that this was the trigger of the BAC.
    I have seen some Nordicism here indeed, but I also noticed every one here has his own preferences and biasses.
    It is human and natural.
    I consider pride a good thing, as long as it doesn't get in the way of one's intelligence.
    It is not usefull to discuss here who has which preferences.
    It is more important that every body finds this out for himself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkoZ View Post
    Does that really work, though? Wouldn't the East European component absorb other non-EHG admixtures? And wouldn't the historical presence of Greeks, Romans, Crusaders and Sea Peoples have imparted at least some WHG of European derivation on the Lebanese population?
    Yes, clearly the East European component does contain other elements besides Yamnaya. That's why, imo, using an admixture calculator based on modern populations is only going to give you clues, not actual percentages. It's not really the best way to analyze this. You need formal stats for that.

    @Hauteville,
    I hate to keep repeating the same thing over and over again, but only ancient dna will tell us. If the Philistines carried a decent amount of "Yamnaya like" ancestry (approximately half and half EHG and CHG), then it very well could have changed the profile of the later Phoenicians. It might not completely match the dna of modern Lebanese, however, because they might have picked up additional "Yamnaya like" ancestry from Greeks during the Hellenistic period.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Razib Khan has a good blog post on the paper:

    The Canaanites walk among us:

    https://gnxp.nofe.me/2017/05/26/the-...walk-among-us/

    "The admixture plot above reflects the five individuals from Sidon dating to about ~1750 BCE. They are about a 50:50 mix of western and eastern farmer. Though they seem to be genetically rather similar to modern Lebanese (the authors sampled Lebanese Christians in particular), there have been some changes between the Bronze Age and the modern period. In particular, a genetic component that seems to be related to the Eurasian steppe is present in modern Lebanese. Explicit admixture estimates give a range of 5-10% mixing into a ~90-95% Bronze Age ancestral background."

    "
    Though looking at Muslim populations one can see minor and non-trivial contributions of populations which moved in after Islam (Sub-Saharan and East Asia segments are clear signs of slavery impacting Muslims that would not apply to ethno-religious minorities), most of the ancestry broadly is deeply rooted back to antiquity."

    "
    Because of sampling issues one can’t estimate admixture between eastern and western farmers just from looking at ancient DNA transects. We don’t have the density that we have in Europe (yet). So the authors used a more classic inference technique looking at decays of linkage disequilibrium in the genome. In short you can see how many generations that a pulse admixture between two populations occurred by looking at correlations of variants across the genome. The authors arrive at the intervals above, and in particular focus on the period that seems to overlap with the rise and fall of the empire of Sargon of Akkad and correlated with a climatic disruption."

    "
    I suspect they are wrong here. First, it seems pretty clear to me that LD based admixtures assuming a pulse event have a bias toward underestimating values. There are theoretical reasons for this. So usually I pad the mid-point value across the interval on these estimates."

    "
    I believe that the massive western-eastern farmer admixture occurred between 3600 and 3100 BCE, during the Uruk Expansion. The evidence of lower Mesopotamian influence and demographic settlement in places as far afield as Anatolia, the Caucasus, and Syria, are well attested from the archaeology of this period. This was was a time when a very complex and sophisticated civilization emerged almost de novo across much of the Near East. I believe that a prehistoric expansion of Sumerian civilization mediated the merging of eastern and western farmers, though some of the mixing pre-dates and post-dates the Uruk Expansion and collapse (e.g., the movement of western farmer ancestry into Mesopotamia seems certain to have occurred through the arrival of groups like the Amorites)."

    "
    What about the second ancestral component? Drilling down on the Y chromosomes of the Levant, R1b seems to far outnumber R1a, though the R1a clades are all of the Asian/Scythian Z-93 branch which is dominant in Central Asia and the Levant. The R1a may have come with the Persians, but in region of the western Levant for several hundred years after the period of the Bronze Age Sidon samples there was a state, the Mitanni, which clearly had an Indo-Aryan ruling class.An Aegean influence occurred multiple times. First, at the end of the Bronze Age many of the “Sea Peoples” were clearly of Aegean origin, and so may have brought steppe-like ancestry. Second, there was the long period under Hellenistic and Roman rule, when Greek and non-Greek ethnic identity existed side by side, and movement occurred in both directions. I think only ancient DNA will answer this question, and it may be that there were multiple post-Bronze Age inputs of genes which shaped modern Levantines."

  12. #62
    MarkoZ
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    How do adherents of the SSA aDNA = slavery explain the 3-5% in Western Jews detected in Moorjani (2011)?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    in western jews
    it is east african admixture this admixture is also present in
    samaritans ...
    someone ask from where j come from
    it came from the north.....
    we see E in natufians and neolithic levant
    yet not in the bronze age jordan and in those sidon samples
    but we know that in 1200-1080 bc E was present in armenia .......
    so i think 2 samples males is not enough we need much to know ....

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by MarkoZ View Post
    How do adherents of the SSA aDNA = slavery explain the 3-5% in Western Jews detected in Moorjani (2011)?
    I think, just going by memory, that Muslim Lebanese (and Palestinians, Jordanians, etc.) have both SSA as in West African type ancestry, and East African ancestry as well, with the SSA usually attributed to slavery. (Interestingly, the Muslims also have more "European" type dna as well, also attributed usually to slavery.) I'm not sure that's completely accurate, though, in that slaves, particularly female slaves, sometimes came from East Africa.

    Religious minorities like the Druze, Alawites, etc. as well as the Christians, have a lower total "African" percentage, and it's almost always East African.

    The Jews, again from what I remember, have mostly East African, but I'm not sure. I do remember reading that they also have a bit of SSA, and that's usually attributed to admixture with North African Jews and the Sephardic Jews who more often mixed with them.

    As for Moorjani, didn't they tacitly admit in later papers that those percentages were inflated? What I usually see proposed for Ashkenazim is about 1% isn't it, and slightly more for Sephardim?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    angela yes correct
    i score 1.2% in eurogenes k13
    and it is all east african ......
    and i think in dstats test which is more presice i might show show 0%
    i can give you samritans and lebanese christian gedmatch kits number
    and you can check there % of east african ...

    p.s
    ok i check a full samaritan ISRAELITE SAMARITAN (TRIBE OF EPHRAIM) score 1.99 % north east africa in gedmatch eurogenes k13
    a full palestinian muslem score 3.8% north east african and only 0.5% sub sharan
    the diffrence between him and the samaritans kit is that he score 6.5% atlantic a european admixture ....
    Last edited by kingjohn; 29-05-17 at 15:54.

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    Anyone take a look at Genetiker's admixture analysis? Has he done a more recent one using the new ancient samples?

    https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2016...stern-genomes/

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    this is the more recent

    https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2017...onian-genomes/

    it doesn't include the many new genomes published last month yet

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    angela yes correct i score 1.2% in eurogenes k13 and it is all east african ...... and i think in dstats test which is more presice i might show show 0% i can give you samritans and lebanese christian gedmatch kits number and you can check there % of east african ... p.s ok i check a full samaritan ISRAELITE SAMARITAN (TRIBE OF EPHRAIM) score 1.99 % north east africa in gedmatch eurogenes k13 a full palestinian muslem score 3.8% north east african and only 0.5% sub sharan the diffrence between him and the samaritans kit is that he score 6.5% atlantic a european admixture ....
    Even Ashkenazi Jews have up to 3% Saharan African [spoiler]Previous genetic studies have suggested a history of sub-Saharan African gene flow into some West Eurasian populations after the initial dispersal out of Africa that occurred at least 45,000 years ago. However, there has been no accurate characterization of the proportion of mixture, or of its date. We analyze genome-wide polymorphism data from about 40 West Eurasian groups to show that almost all Southern Europeans have inherited 1%–3% African ancestry with an average mixture date of around 55 generations ago, consistent with North African gene flow at the end of the Roman Empire and subsequent Arab migrations. Levantine groups harbor 4%–15% African ancestry with an average mixture date of about 32 generations ago, consistent with close political, economic, and cultural links with Egypt in the late middle ages. We also detect 3%–5% sub-Saharan African ancestry in all eight of the diverse Jewish populations that we analyzed. For the Jewish admixture, we obtain an average estimated date of about 72 generations. This may reflect descent of these groups from a common ancestral population that already had some African ancestry prior to the Jewish Diasporas.[/spoiler]

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    The most significant result was for mixture of Levant_N and Iran_ChL (p=0.013) around 181 ± 54 generations ago, or ~5,000 ± 1,500 ya assuming a generation time of 28 years (Figure S11A). This admixture time, based entirely on genetic data, fits the known ages of the samples based on archaeological data since it falls between the dates of Sidon_BA (3,650-3,750 ya) and Iran_ChL (6,500-5,500 ya). The admixture time also overlaps with the rise and fall of the Akkadian Empire which controlled the region from Iran to the Levant between ~4.4 and 4.2 kya. The Akkadian collapse is argued to have been the result of a widespread aridification event around 4,200 ya, possibly caused by a volcanic eruption.42; 43 Archaeological evidence in this period documents large-scale influxes of refugees from Northern Mesopotamia towards the south, where cities and villages became overpopulated.44

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    The Akkadian collapse is argued to have been the result of a widespread aridification event around 4,200 ya, possibly caused by a volcanic eruption.42; 43 Archaeological evidence in this period documents large-scale influxes of refugees from Northern Mesopotamia towards the south, where cities and villages became overpopulated.44: this seems to be the 4200 event, called 4,200 years event.

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    evidence ; Bronze of Levante (Spanish: Bronce de Levante) is the name of the proto-Iberian culture extending approximately over the Region of Valencia (Spanish Levante) in the 2nd millennium BCE. It is contemporary with the El Argar culture by which it is strongly influenced.Between c. 1500 and 1300 BCE, the people of this culture colonized La Mancha with military constructions called Motillas. a result of the 4200 event , that 200 years of cooling caused big flood in China 's Qinghai Ledu Lajia disaster, which is labelled Oriental Pompeii.


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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    every haplogroup originating from haplogroup F came from north of the Zargos mountains

    also - northern levant was Luwian non-semitic language until ~1000BC when the phoenicians came and settled there. So this chit-chat of semetic always being in the northern levant is false.

    Haplogroup F, also known as F-M89 and previously as Haplogroup FT is a very common Y-chromosome haplogroup. The clade and its subclades constitute over 90% of paternal lineages outside of Africa. It is primarily found throughout South Asia, Southeast Asia and parts of East Asia.
    The vast majority of individual males with F-M89 fall into its direct descendant Haplogroup GHIJK (F1329/M3658/PF2622/YSC0001299).[8] in addition to GHIJK, haplogroup F has three other immediate descendant subclades: F1 (P91/P104), F2 (M427/M428), and F3 (M481). These three, with F* (M89*), constitute the paragroup F(xGHIJK).
    Haplogroup GHIJK branches subsequently into two direct descendants: G (M201/PF2957) and HIJK (F929/M578/PF3494/S6397). HIJK in turn splits into H (L901/M2939) and IJK (F-L15). The descendants of Haplogroup IJK include haplogroups I, J, K, and, ultimately, several major haplogroups descended from Haplogroup K, namely: haplogroups M, N, O, P, Q, R, S, L, and T.
    By reading the ancient Egyptian texts it is clear that the "sea peoples" were never an unified group but a variety of different populations, the ancient Egyptians even specified it "peoples coming from all the Northen lands" so they didn't originate from one single place. Now it's evident that there was an Aegean and Cypriot component, that's undeniable from their material culture and the Cypriot component being there is supported not only by the material culture but also by textual and undeniable iconographic evidence. The Italic and Sardinian component (Shekelesh and Shardana) is also very likely given the finds gathered in the last decades, because it is in the late bronze age that South italy and Sardinia started trading directly and frequently with the Eastern Mediterranean, and it's in the late bronze age that both Sardinian and South italian presence is attested in the Eastern Mediterranean in the period of the sea peoples invasions. The links between Sardinia and Cyprus are extremely strong during the late bronze age, while the presence of Italic cetona swords in Ugarit and Cyprus is also undeniable, and the presence of Italic mercenaries is attested in the Levant since the 14th century bc with the Pertosa sword from the Uluburun wreck. Now, obviously Anatolian Lycians played a role too in this and even the Libyans played a role since Egyptian texts prove their involvement with the sea peoples during the reign of Merneptah and the Lycians were reported to raid Egypt along with the peoples of Cyprus during the Amarna period and later under Merneptah with the Libyans, the Shekelesh, Ekwesh, Sherden and Tursha, so we know that people as far apart as the Libyans and Lycians collaborated. This confirms again the idea that it was very different tribes speaking different languages coming together and not a single ethnicity, and I should also remark that there were different waves starting as raids in the late 14th century bc and turning into full fledged mass migrations by the late 13th-early 12th century bc, these invasions comprised different peoples, sometimes some names reappeared, sometimes they didn't, and they also attacked from different directions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    every haplogroup originating from haplogroup F came from north of the Zargos mountains

    also - northern levant was Luwian non-semitic language until ~1000BC when the phoenicians came and settled there. So this chit-chat of semetic always being in the northern levant is false.
    So Ebla, Alalakh, Ugarit, Alab etc didn't exist according to you? Also you're probably confusing the Phoenicians with the Arameans, oh, and it's spelled Semitic.

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    And Tripoli (1109), Beirut (1110), Sidon (1110), and Tyre (1124) were captured by the Crusaders (Franks, Germans, etc.).

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