Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 73

Thread: bronze age sidon {lebanon dna paper}

  1. #1
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points
    kingjohn's Avatar
    Join Date
    05-09-16
    Posts
    245
    Points
    5,088
    Level
    21
    Points: 5,088, Level: 21
    Level completed: 8%, Points required for next Level: 462
    Overall activity: 37.0%


    Country: Uruguay



    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.

    bronze age sidon {lebanon dna paper}


  2. #2
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points
    Promenade's Avatar
    Join Date
    08-01-16
    Posts
    288
    Points
    4,459
    Level
    19
    Points: 4,459, Level: 19
    Level completed: 53%, Points required for next Level: 191
    Overall activity: 2.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-U106 R-L1
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1e

    Country: USA - New York



    CHG is 28% EHG/WHG? I didn't realize they were partially derived from European hunter gatherers, that's news to me at least.

    Another thing that confuses me is this, they say

    "the present-day Lebanese, in addition to their Levant_N and Iranian ancestry, have a component (11-22%) related to EHG and Steppe populations not found in Bronze Age populations (Figure 3A)."

    Yet in figure 4A it clearly shows "Iron Age Levantines" only receiving 7% Steppe ancestry. The leads me to believe that a significant portion of the Steppe ancestry in Lebanon came from the Iranian Chacolithic, through the Iranians Chacolithic's CHG ancestry (The CHG apparently being almost a third EHG/WHG). But they specifically say how this steppe ancestry isn't found in the Levantine Bronze age populations when they had already received Iran_CH ancestry though, so that confuses me. Figure 3A also shows Sidon and Iran_CH without any blue Steppe ancestry. Anyone care to elaborate?

    They attribute the increase in Steppe ancestry to the Persian and Macedonian conquests, I'm not sure if I buy that, especially if it's from 0 to 22 percent.

  3. #3
    Elite member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points
    holderlin's Avatar
    Join Date
    01-12-14
    Location
    Oregon
    Posts
    770
    Points
    7,659
    Level
    26
    Points: 7,659, Level: 26
    Level completed: 19%, Points required for next Level: 491
    Overall activity: 9.0%


    Country: USA - Washington



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Nice. 1/2 and 1/2 Natufian/Iran Neolithic. Expected from the migrations from the Zagros following the fall of the Akkadian empire evidenced by pottery.

    It's amazing that we can see this in the genetics. I guess it's likely that the 1/2 Iranian Neolithic came earlier, but whatever.

    In before Alan's all up in arms that Iranian Neolithic isn't modeled in Steppe in the author's admixture plots.

  4. #4
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points
    bicicleur's Avatar
    Join Date
    27-01-13
    Location
    Zwevegem, Belgium
    Posts
    5,334
    Points
    45,963
    Level
    66
    Points: 45,963, Level: 66
    Level completed: 30%, Points required for next Level: 987
    Overall activity: 45.0%


    Country: Belgium - Flanders



    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.


  5. #5
    Regular Member Achievements:
    5000 Experience PointsVeteran
    berun's Avatar
    Join Date
    24-11-15
    Posts
    1,084
    Points
    8,922
    Level
    28
    Points: 8,922, Level: 28
    Level completed: 29%, Points required for next Level: 428
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    well, with the steppists looking at the Caucasus for their CHG component and now Canaanites/Semites having 1/2 of CHG (in the form of Iran_Chalco)... it will be more fast to solve the question to test samples from Armenia to find Jafet and Sem!
    ;)

    As is usual with ancient genes papers, even just using Wikipedia demonstrates the fiascos done.

    The PCA shows that Sidon_BA clusters with three individuals from Early Bronze Age Jordan (Jordan_BA) found in a cave above the Neolithic site of ‘Ain Ghazal and probably associated with an Early Bronze Age village close to the site
    Sidon_BA males are dated to 1700-1650 BC and their Y-DNA were J1a2b and J2b, the other Jordan_BA were I1706 (2500-2300), I1705 (2200-1950) and was J1, and I1730 (2500-2300) ans was J.

    Lazaridis et al.13 reported that Jordan_BA can be modelled as mixture of Neolithic Levant (Levant_N) and Chalcolithic Iran (Iran_ChL). We computed the statistic f4(Levant_N, Sidon_BA; Ancient Eurasian, Chimpanzee) and found populations from the Caucasus and Iran shared more alleles with Sidon_BA than with Neolithic Levant (Figure 2A). We then used qpAdm8 (with parameter allsnps: YES) to test if Sidon_BA can be modelled as mixture of Levant_N and any other ancient population in the dataset and found good support for the model of Sidon_BA being a mixture of Levant_N (48.4± 4.2%) and Iran_ChL (51.6± 4.2%) (Figure 2B; Table S3).
    so genes point to an admixture event with local Neolithic people (their Y-DNA was mainly E without J) and people from somewhere the Kurdistan.

    We compiled frequencies of Y-chromosomal haplogroups in this geographical area and their changes over time in a dataset of ancient and modern Levantine populations (Figure S10), and note, similarly to Lazaridis et al.,13 that haplogroup J was absent in all Natufian and Neolithic Levant male individuals examined thus far, but emerged during the Bronze Age in Lebanon and Jordan along with ancestry related to Iran.
    OK for logics by now.

    The most significant result was for mixture of Levant_N and Iran_ChL (p=0.013) around 181 ± 54 generations ago, or ~5,000 ± 1,500 ya assuming a generation time of 28 years (Figure S11A). This admixture time, based entirely on genetic data, fits the known ages of the samples based on archaeological data since it falls between the dates of Sidon_BA (3,650-3,750 ya) and Iran_ChL (6,500-5,500 ya). The admixture time also overlaps with the rise and fall of the Akkadian Empire which controlled the region from Iran to the Levant between ~4.4 and 4.2 kya. The Akkadian collapse is argued to have been the result of a widespread aridification event around 4,200 ya, possibly caused by a volcanic eruption.42; 43 Archaeological evidence in this period documents large-scale influxes of refugees from Northern Mesopotamia towards the south, where cities and villages became overpopulated.44
    Now logics are not working here: if aridification was the cause of the migration, and such event was by 2200 BC... what to do with I1730 who was at least a century before in the place?

    It would be so harmful to look at Wikipedia for Kura-Araxes expansion over Levant? (Khirbet Kerak Ware)

    Attachment 8725

    which reached today's Palestine by 2650 BC... from Kurdistan.
    "What I've seen so far after my entire career chasing Indoeuropeans is that our solutions look tissue thin and our problems still look monumental" J.P.Mallory

    "The ultimate homeland of the group [PIE] that also spread Anatolian languages is less clear." D. Reich

  6. #6
    Regular Member Achievements:
    5000 Experience PointsVeteran
    berun's Avatar
    Join Date
    24-11-15
    Posts
    1,084
    Points
    8,922
    Level
    28
    Points: 8,922, Level: 28
    Level completed: 29%, Points required for next Level: 428
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    We found that the Lebanese can be best modelled as Sidon_BA 93±1.6% and a Steppe Bronze Age population 7±1.6% (Figure 3C; Table S6).
    We found support (p=0.00017) for a mixture between Sidon_BA and Steppe_EMBA which has occurred around 2,950±790 ya (Figure S11B). It is important to note here that Bronze Age Steppe populations used in the model need not be the actual ancestral mixing populations, and the admixture could have involved a population which was itself admixed with a Steppe-like ancestry population. The time period of this mixture overlaps with the decline of the Egyptian empire and its domination over the Levant, leading some of the coastal cities to thrive, including Sidon and Tyre, which established at this time a successful maritime trade network throughout the Mediterranean. The decline in Egypt’s power was also followed by a succession of conquests of the region by distant populations such as the Assyrians, Persians, and Macedonians, any or all of whom could have carried the Steppe-like ancestry observed here in the Levant after the Bronze Age.
    Just forgetting Pelesht/Philistines conquering Canaanite cities by 1000 BC, or how the Sea Peoples ravaged Ugarit tells the level of the paper.

  7. #7
    MarkoZ
    Guest


    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Promenade View Post
    CHG is 28% EHG/WHG? I didn't realize they were partially derived from European hunter gatherers, that's news to me at least.
    This is a result of the authors' quite baffling attempt to backwards-model CHG in apAdm using Mesolithic and Neolithic populations.

    That said I do think Kotias-Satsurbalia might have some kind of WHG-like ancestry, perhaps associated with Y-DNA J.

  8. #8
    Elite member Achievements:
    OverdriveThree Friends5000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Hauteville's Avatar
    Join Date
    28-11-14
    Posts
    824
    Points
    9,097
    Level
    28
    Points: 9,097, Level: 28
    Level completed: 58%, Points required for next Level: 253
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I-S185
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2b

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: Italy



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    It seems modern day-Lebanese have acquired HG ancestors compared to the Canaanite samples.

    free image hosting
    Sicilians and mainlander Southern Italian phenotype galleries.

    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/1111/Re-Groups-of-Sicilians
    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/375/Southern-italians-how-we-really-look

  9. #9
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    15,307
    Points
    279,596
    Level
    100
    Points: 279,596, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    Just forgetting Pelesht/Philistines conquering Canaanite cities by 1000 BC, or how the Sea Peoples ravaged Ugarit tells the level of the paper.
    Despite claims by some people commenting on this paper, none of the experts are quite sure who the Sea Peoples were, much less their precise origin. Most likely they didn't originate in one place and so might have differed genetically. It's true that some Mycenaean ware has been found at Philistine sites, but I think we've learned that in some cases pots are indeed just pots. Plus, we still don't know how much steppe the Mycenaean elites might have carried, much less the settlers. If the Philistines came from Crete or some places in Anatolia or Sardinia I'm not convinced they would have had much "steppe" ancestry to bring to the table. This is another one that should wait for aDna, in my opinion.

    Who knows, that might already be in the pipe line. I think these people talk to each other. They're colleagues after all, and no one wants to have his paper made irrelevant by an ancient DNA result that comes out a month later...no citations that way.

    Some of the suggestions are just silly, imo. Sarmatian soldiers brought by the Romans? :) First of all, I would think that we all should know by this point that some soldiers are not going to cause a large change in the genome like this, I.e.. O-7%. You almost always need something resembling a folk migration. Young men need to stop thinking that movies like Clive Owen's King Arthur depict reality.

    The suggestion that it was brought during the era of Macedonian rule is actually quite sound. The Greeks established quite a few cities in the area. Their influence was so strong that it inspired the Maccabean revolt. I still can't link, but just google the Seleucid Empire, Maccabean Revolt, and the cities of the Decapolis. Who knows, maybe the genes of the Celts of Galatia partly diffused throughout the region and added a little layer. This was a very open, mobile area.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

  10. #10
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    15,307
    Points
    279,596
    Level
    100
    Points: 279,596, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    It's half Levant Neolithic, half Iran Chalcolithic, not half Iran Neolithic.

    This makes the genesis of Semitic a bit confusing, imo. The "J -58"and the J2b1?definitely came with Iran Chalcolithic, but this mass movement of a perhaps mostly male group adopted the language of E bearing Natufian women? This happened with such a male dominant pastoral culture?

  11. #11
    Elite member Achievements:
    OverdriveThree Friends5000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Hauteville's Avatar
    Join Date
    28-11-14
    Posts
    824
    Points
    9,097
    Level
    28
    Points: 9,097, Level: 28
    Level completed: 58%, Points required for next Level: 253
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I-S185
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2b

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: Italy



    We actually don't know nothing about Sea Peoples and where they came from. Those Canaanite can't even be a proxy for ancient Phoenicians if they mixed or if they were Sea Peoples.

  12. #12
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points
    Promenade's Avatar
    Join Date
    08-01-16
    Posts
    288
    Points
    4,459
    Level
    19
    Points: 4,459, Level: 19
    Level completed: 53%, Points required for next Level: 191
    Overall activity: 2.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-U106 R-L1
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1e

    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by MarkoZ View Post
    This is a result of the authors' quite baffling attempt to backwards-model CHG in apAdm using Mesolithic and Neolithic populations.

    That said I do think Kotias-Satsurbalia might have some kind of WHG-like ancestry, perhaps associated with Y-DNA J.
    Thank you for responding MarkoZ!

    I guess since I was the first to respond I should've summarized the paper so then we could start discussing questions.

    What about the second question though? Do you have any idea as to why in figure 4a it shows Iron Age Levantines receiving 7 percent Steppe ancestry when before it says the Lebanese have 11-22 percent Steppe ancestry that Bronze Age Levantines did not have? When you look at figure 3a you can also see the blue component missing from Sidon and the Bronze age Levantines, but present in the Lebanese in what appears to be closer to 11-22 percent than 7 percent.

  13. #13
    Regular Member Achievements:
    5000 Experience PointsVeteran
    berun's Avatar
    Join Date
    24-11-15
    Posts
    1,084
    Points
    8,922
    Level
    28
    Points: 8,922, Level: 28
    Level completed: 29%, Points required for next Level: 428
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    The language of the incoming Iran_Chalco was not Semitic. Semitic is a branch of the Afroasian family (Berber, Coptic, Cushitic) linked to the E haplo and thereafter surely with Levant_Neo. There are a lot of examples of herder peoples getting the language of farmers (Bulgars the Slav, Langobardi the Italian, the Manchu the Chinese and so).

  14. #14
    Regular Member Achievements:
    5000 Experience PointsVeteran
    berun's Avatar
    Join Date
    24-11-15
    Posts
    1,084
    Points
    8,922
    Level
    28
    Points: 8,922, Level: 28
    Level completed: 29%, Points required for next Level: 428
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    Quote Originally Posted by Hauteville View Post
    We actually don't know nothing about Sea Peoples and where they came from. Those Canaanite can't even be a proxy for ancient Phoenicians if they mixed or if they were Sea Peoples.
    That is not so for all, per example Ahiwa with Achaeans. I don't have the ref with me but Sea Peoples in Levant were IE (the same name of Goliath is).

  15. #15
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points
    Promenade's Avatar
    Join Date
    08-01-16
    Posts
    288
    Points
    4,459
    Level
    19
    Points: 4,459, Level: 19
    Level completed: 53%, Points required for next Level: 191
    Overall activity: 2.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-U106 R-L1
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1e

    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    It's half Levant Neolithic, half Iran Chalcolithic, not half Iran Neolithic.

    This makes the genesis of Semitic a bit confusing, imo. The "J -58"and the J2b1?definitely came with Iran Chalcolithic, but this mass movement of a perhaps mostly male group adopted the language of E bearing Natufian women? This happened with such a male dominant pastoral culture?
    The study attributes the introduction of Iran Chalcolithic to the Levant with the expansion of the Akkadian Empire and it's subsequent demise which caused large migrations west. The Sumerian language was dying out in favor of the Semetic Akkadian language through out it's history. They were already speaking a Semetic language before they entered the area of the Levant.

  16. #16
    Regular Member Achievements:
    VeteranTagger Second Class5000 Experience Points
    Cato's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-08-12
    Posts
    357
    Points
    9,350
    Level
    28
    Points: 9,350, Level: 28
    Level completed: 50%, Points required for next Level: 600
    Overall activity: 8.0%


    Country: Italy



    Some Palestinian kings of the middle bronze age had Indo-Aryan names (Mitanni), obviously they were just a ruling caste while the commoners were indigenous, DNA prove it

    https://books.google.it/books?id=oxk...page&q&f=false

  17. #17
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteranTagger First Class50000 Experience PointsRecommendation First Class
    Awards:
    Discussion Ender
    LeBrok's Avatar
    Join Date
    18-11-09
    Location
    Calgary
    Posts
    10,329
    Points
    113,888
    Level
    100
    Points: 113,888, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b Z2109
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1c

    Ethnic group
    Citizen of the world
    Country: Canada-Alberta



    A very confusing paper I must say. Especially, finding so much steppe in modern Lebanese. We know genomes of modern Near Easterners, and nothing like this was discovered till now?!!! Something is fishy with this picture. Unless, they have tested a special group of Lebanese.
    To get to 20% of steppe in modern Lebanese people, we would need to replace almost half of the population with pure Steppe. And what would be the pure source of pure Steppe in Iron Age or later?!!!

    On other hand 7% of Steppe arriving in Bronze Age makes sense. We had huge Steppe admixture in BA Armenians, up to 30% or so. We also see the rise of Steppe in IA Iran or Medieval, about 5-10% (I don't have BA Iran to compare though).

    Also I don't like how they displayed source populations in chart A on page 13. They see no difference between Iran Neolithic and Chalcolithic , or Levant and Anatolian Neolithic for that matter. They don't show Iranian Ch/N in Steppe admixture, but they should. Otherwise how can they recognize if Iran Chalcolithic came to Lebanon directly from Iran or from Steppe? Possibly this is their confusion about Steppe admixture in modern Lebanese.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

  18. #18
    Regular Member Achievements:
    VeteranTagger Second Class5000 Experience Points
    Cato's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-08-12
    Posts
    357
    Points
    9,350
    Level
    28
    Points: 9,350, Level: 28
    Level completed: 50%, Points required for next Level: 600
    Overall activity: 8.0%


    Country: Italy



    Sea peoples (Peleset, Denyen, Sikel, Sherden ) settled a little further south than Sidon according to the Onomasticon of Amenope... i doubt they had much steppe (especially if they came from Crete, Sicily and Sardinia as some have suggested)

    sp.jpg

  19. #19
    MarkoZ
    Guest


    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Promenade View Post
    Thank you for responding MarkoZ!

    I guess since I was the first to respond I should've summarized the paper so then we could start discussing questions.

    What about the second question though? Do you have any idea as to why in figure 4a it shows Iron Age Levantines receiving 7 percent Steppe ancestry when before it says the Lebanese have 11-22 percent Steppe ancestry that Bronze Age Levantines did not have? When you look at figure 3a you can also see the blue component missing from Sidon and the Bronze age Levantines, but present in the Lebanese in what appears to be closer to 11-22 percent than 7 percent.
    It's the supervised ADMIXTURE run in Figure 3 that they base their 11-22% estimate on. The problem with supervised runs is that the authors have to make a guess regarding the fixed ancestries of their model, meaning that there are implicit assumptions about which populations expanded and which populations were on the receiving end of hypothetical admixture events.

    In this case I think the authors made a bad choice using the Neolithic Iranian samples as an outgroup due to their exaggerated Basal Eurasian affinity (almost on par with present day East Africans and much more than modern Iranians in any case). Due to its diverged nature an excess of Basal Eurasian ancestry (the most divergent ancestral component in Eurasia) cannot be assigned to the outgroups that carry none (WHG) or relatively little (EHG) of it. Conversely, the ADMIXTURE run in the paper interprets diminished Basal Eurasian ancestry with respect to Iran_ Neo as an excess of EHG ancestry, which is merely the next best thing and unlikely to represent actual admixture.

    If modern Lebanese actually had anything close to 22% EHG ancestry they would probably plot with present Northern Europeans, which we know isn't the case.

  20. #20
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points
    Promenade's Avatar
    Join Date
    08-01-16
    Posts
    288
    Points
    4,459
    Level
    19
    Points: 4,459, Level: 19
    Level completed: 53%, Points required for next Level: 191
    Overall activity: 2.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-U106 R-L1
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1e

    Country: USA - New York



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by MarkoZ View Post
    It's the supervised ADMIXTURE run in Figure 3 that they base their 11-22% estimate on. The problem with supervised runs is that the authors have to make a guess regarding the fixed ancestries of their model, meaning that there are implicit assumptions about which populations expanded and which populations were on the receiving end of hypothetical admixture events.

    In this case I think the authors made a bad choice using the Neolithic Iranian samples as an outgroup due to their exaggerated Basal Eurasian affinity (almost on par with present day East Africans and much more than modern Iranians in any case). Due to its diverged nature an excess of Basal Eurasian ancestry (the most divergent ancestral component in Eurasia) cannot be assigned to the outgroups that carry none (WHG) or relatively little (EHG) of it. Conversely, the ADMIXTURE run in the paper interprets diminished Basal Eurasian ancestry with respect to Iran_ Neo as an excess of EHG ancestry, which is merely the next best thing and unlikely to represent actual admixture.

    If modern Lebanese actually had anything close to 22% EHG ancestry they would probably plot with present Northern Europeans, which we know isn't the case.
    Thank you for taking the time to explain this, I appreciate it. So essentially there is a yet to be discovered group, the paper should've elaborated more on this. It seems like an important detail to leave out and it would make things much clearer.

    7% Steppe ancestry seems a lot more reasonable, still I'm not sure if the Macedonians or Persians could've delivered so much.

  21. #21
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    70
    Posts
    4,381
    Points
    38,396
    Level
    60
    Points: 38,396, Level: 60
    Level completed: 46%, Points required for next Level: 654
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hauteville View Post
    We actually don't know nothing about Sea Peoples and where they came from. Those Canaanite can't even be a proxy for ancient Phoenicians if they mixed or if they were Sea Peoples.
    Nothing? Not! But little, yes! a mix of true pop's searching better lands on one hand (with wives and children in wagons) and mercenaries and pirates on the other lands: Philistins "Peleset"(maybe Pelasgians of meta-Italic origin), Acheans (?) "Ahhiyawa",Hittites, other I-E Anatolians West the Hittites, Sicules ? "Skrs", "Shekelesh", Etruscans (Tyrsoi? "Trs", "Teresh") Sardes "Shardana"..., Arzawa, Dardanians (which ones?) : "Drdny" of N-W Anatolia?, Lukka (Lycians?), Kashka "Keshkesh", Ekwesh, Lybians, all that spred on a long enough period, with mercenaries changing side according to times - very confused - it seems a lot were coming from S-W Anatolia but ... could this be the cause of a neat rising of so called 'Steppe' DNA? Uneasy to say... Not evident, I think.

  22. #22
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    15,307
    Points
    279,596
    Level
    100
    Points: 279,596, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    The language of the incoming Iran_Chalco was not Semitic. Semitic is a branch of the Afroasian family (Berber, Coptic, Cushitic) linked to the E haplo and thereafter surely with Levant_Neo. There are a lot of examples of herder peoples getting the language of farmers (Bulgars the Slav, Langobardi the Italian, the Manchu the Chinese and so).
    I know what Semitic is a branch of...I just found it amusing that the very same people who insisted for so many years that a pastoral, male dominant, society like that on the steppe would never adopt the language of their West Asian wives have absolutely no problem envisioning such a thing when it's a Near Eastern male dominant, pastoral society. :)

  23. #23
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    15,307
    Points
    279,596
    Level
    100
    Points: 279,596, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by Promenade View Post
    The study attributes the introduction of Iran Chalcolithic to the Levant with the expansion of the Akkadian Empire and it's subsequent demise which caused large migrations west. The Sumerian language was dying out in favor of the Semetic Akkadian language through out it's history. They were already speaking a Semetic language before they entered the area of the Levant.
    OK. However, a lot of people agree with the hypothesis that the Semitic languages arose in the southern Levant. To what period would that be dated? Would the people in the southern Levant at that time have still carried mostly ydna lineages? When and with whom did the Semitic language get to the Akkadians?

    Sorry if I'm being dense, but the Semitic languages aren't something in which I have any expertise, and this seems confusing.

    Yes, I think 7% steppe is what they're claiming. As Marko explained, the 11-22% referred to the results from supervised admixture. I'm always somewhat leery of supervised admixture runs. So much depends on the person setting it up, because even if it's being done totally honestly and objectively errors are easily made, imo.

  24. #24
    MarkoZ
    Guest


    Quote Originally Posted by Promenade View Post
    7% Steppe ancestry seems a lot more reasonable, still I'm not sure if the Macedonians or Persians could've delivered so much.
    Yeah, it'd be quite difficult to imagine that a historical event could have caused such a significant shift. I think one of the reason for this apparent change could be that the authors are comparing samples from a single southern Lebanese site to a synthesized modern cluster. In their f4 analysis they find that additional affinity to the Mal'ta Boy and Swiss Bichon most differentiates Lebanese from Sidon_BA, so the modern cluster might simply reflect pre-existing internal diversity. Perhaps it's as simple decreasing Natufian affinity as you go north.

  25. #25
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    15,307
    Points
    279,596
    Level
    100
    Points: 279,596, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    The cities of the Decapolis:


    Hellenistic cities of the Near East:
    The cities of the Decapolis:


    Hellenistic cities of the Near East:




Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •