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Thread: First Genomes from Ancient Egypt

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Levant Bronze Age is very similar to the ancient Egyptian sample, which I think will turn out to be close to the Egyptian Copts. They don't at all look Cypriot to me.







    Greek Cypriots:



    Obviously, there are a few non-Cypriots in the following. :)


    Plus, didn't the paper on the Canaanites tell us that these Bronze Age Canaanite samples have no derived SLC45A2, so not only different than people in the Levant today, but also quite a bit darker than the people of the Anatolia Neolithic and the EEF of Europe, who did have reasonably high percentages of derived SLC45A2. In fact, I think a recent paper revised those estimates upwards from where they were a while ago.. This might suggest that most of the Iran Chl, like the CHG themselves, only had the derived SLC25A2 allele, and thus were rather darker than not only Anatolia Neolithic, but also Levant Neolithic, since some of them also had derived SLC45A2, although the Natufians did not.

    The admixture run isn't optimal, but going by that the Bronze Age Levant doesn't look all that different from the Saudis. So, maybe tribal Saudis or Yeminis without obvious SSA?







    Who knows, though?
    There were comments from newspapers about this study as well. One paper I read on line was saying that the study showed that (many mummies of 96 of them, where they were able to extract DNA) mummies were carrying the gene for white skin. The population of Egypt back then was compared with Turkeys population today. Since Turkey today has all possible shades of European populations I don't know what they mean by Turkish. That's why I said probably Cyprus was the best candidate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Levant Bronze Age is very similar to the ancient Egyptian sample, which I think will turn out to be close to the Egyptian Copts. They don't at all look Cypriot to me.







    Greek Cypriots:



    Obviously, there are a few non-Cypriots in the following. :)


    Plus, didn't the paper on the Canaanites tell us that these Bronze Age Canaanite samples have no derived SLC45A2, so not only different than people in the Levant today, but also quite a bit darker than the people of the Anatolia Neolithic and the EEF of Europe, who did have reasonably high percentages of derived SLC45A2. In fact, I think a recent paper revised those estimates upwards from where they were a while ago.. This might suggest that most of the Iran Chl, like the CHG themselves, only had the derived SLC25A2 allele, and thus were rather darker than not only Anatolia Neolithic, but also Levant Neolithic, since some of them also had derived SLC45A2, although the Natufians did not.

    The admixture run isn't optimal, but going by that the Bronze Age Levant doesn't look all that different from the Saudis. So, maybe tribal Saudis or Yeminis without obvious SSA?







    Who knows, though?
    This one is a coment by "washington post" about the topic:The scientists compared these ancient genetics with those of 100 modern Egyptians and 125 modern Ethiopians that had been previously analyzed. If you ask Egyptians, they'll say that they have become more European recently, Krause said. “We see exactly the opposite,” he said.


    So The post is saying that back then many Egyptians from this site looked more European

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    I knew the reporters would miss interpret derived allele A111t(rs1426654) in ancient Egyptians. That mutation is overrated. For too long it was viewed as the cause of European light skin. But still today researchers overrate its affect on skin color.

    Yeah, that mutation in ancient Egyptians indicates their skin wasn't as Black as night but it doesn't indicate they had "light skin" which is what the paper said. Now I bet some articles online are going to miss interprat that information and information about Egyptians relationship to Neolithic Europeans and conclude ancient Egyptians were white Europeans.

    Just look at ancient Egyptian art. They depicted themselves with brown skin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    I knew the reporters would miss interpret derived allele A111t(rs1426654) in ancient Egyptians. That mutation is overrated. For too long it was viewed as the cause of European light skin. But still today researchers overrate its affect on skin color.

    Yeah, that mutation in ancient Egyptians indicates their skin wasn't as Black as night but it doesn't indicate they had "light skin" which is what the paper said. Now I bet some articles online are going to miss interprat that information and information about Egyptians relationship to Neolithic Europeans and conclude ancient Egyptians were white Europeans.

    Just look at ancient Egyptian art. They depicted themselves with brown skin.
    I agree with you! I'm tired of euro centrists, Nordicists, and skinheads stating that they claim every ancient civilization bc that's crazy talk. And yes, by the data, the ancient Egyptians were NOT genetically close to european farmers. Not by a long shot.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Skin genes are not like hair and eye genes, based on personal observations of mixed people. Hair and eyes have dominant and recessive genes, of which color is one component. Skin of mixed people is always a gradient between the parents. Mix a Nigerian and a Swede and you will always get the brown color in between, but never a white or black skin. The eyes and hair would be dark and less coarse than the Nigerian's, but the children of that mixed child could produce light hair or eyes if their partner had the correct genes.

    Therefore, I'm not sure how you can say "light skin genes" as it appears to be much more fluid than other types of genes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    I agree with you! I'm tired of euro centrists, Nordicists, and skinheads stating that they claim every ancient civilization bc that's crazy talk. And yes, by the data, the ancient Egyptians were NOT genetically close to european farmers. Not by a long shot.
    At the same time you have the We Wuz Kingz Afro-centrists who claim that ancient Chinese were black, the vikings were black, Shakespeare was black etc.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by John Doe View Post
    At the same time you have the We Wuz Kingz Afro-centrists who claim that ancient Chinese were black, the vikings were black, Shakespeare was black etc.
    Heh I have met those. Frustrating and amusing at the same time. I suppose there's an internal affinity towards tribalism that makes people behave this way. Afro master race! Nordic master race! Celtic master race! Italian master race! Iberian master race! Croatian master race! Japanese master race! etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Doe View Post
    At the same time you have the We Wuz Kingz Afro-centrists who claim that ancient Chinese were black, the vikings were black, Shakespeare was black etc.
    I agree, they're just as bad.

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    Quote Originally Posted by I1a3_Young View Post
    Skin genes are not like hair and eye genes, based on personal observations of mixed people. Hair and eyes have dominant and recessive genes, of which color is one component. Skin of mixed people is always a gradient between the parents. Mix a Nigerian and a Swede and you will always get the brown color in between, but never a white or black skin. The eyes and hair would be dark and less coarse than the Nigerian's, but the children of that mixed child could produce light hair or eyes if their partner had the correct genes.

    Therefore, I'm not sure how you can say "light skin genes" as it appears to be much more fluid than other types of genes.
    I don't think so.
    I know of a case where a white woman cheated on her white husband with a black man and got a perfect white daughter, and the white husband was never aware of the cheating.
    Then the white daughter got pregnant from her white boyfriend and got a black son.
    Her white boyfriend rejected her and her black son, untill a DNA test proved what had realy happened.

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    Look, for the ten thousandths time, gentlemen, pigmentation is a polygenic trait. There's no way we can get a fix on it without getting the results for a whole group of alleles and running them through algorithms. That's why the academics always speak in relative terms.

    The allele in question does impact skin color. However, what is commonly perceived as "European" skin color pigmentation also seems to be very affected by derived SLC45A2. Going by memory, the paper on the Canaanites said that among today's Levantines, 1/3 (or was it 2/3?) have at least one copy of derived SLC45A2 along with the other major skin lightening allele. So, all they could say is that the Bronze Age Canaanites and the Levant Bronze Age people were probably darker than some of today's people from the same region. The ancient Egyptian samples also lack this second skin lightening allele, and they also possess some degree of SSA which the ancient samples from the Levant did not, so I highly doubt they were German looking or Greek Cypriot looking. Neither, however, did they look SSA. So, I guess racists on either side aren't happy.

    Reporters always get things wrong. It's just the way it is.


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    Quote Originally Posted by John Doe View Post
    We Wuz Kingz

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    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    I agree with you! I'm tired of euro centrists, Nordicists, and skinheads stating that they claim every ancient civilization bc that's crazy talk. And yes, by the data, the ancient Egyptians were NOT genetically close to european farmers. Not by a long shot.
    I don't know what you mean by that. They had a lot of "farmer" ancestry. Perhaps it was more Levant Neolithic, but Levant Neolithic contained minority Anatolian Neolithic, just as Anatolian Neolithic contained minority Levant Neolithic. Plus, which European farmers do you mean? The early Neolithic farmers in Europe picked up almost no additional WHG. That only happened thousands of years later in the MN, when it went up to about 20-25% depending on the area.

    Of course, it seems the Egyptians from the era in question did have some Iran Chl. type material, but it wasn't much. They did have, for a lower bound number, about 6% SSA, which European Neolithic people did not.

    The skin pigmentation of European farmers also seems to have been quite different. On the other hand, everybody at that point in time was darker than today.

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    I think that we should also keep in mind that this paper only covers a relatively recent period in Egyptian ancient history. We have no idea of the SSA profile of the ancient Egyptians before that time. It might have been higher, so any "crowing" seems a little premature. There were also Nubian rulers of Egypt, so who knows how that affected gene flow. Or even, as they imply, if the Old Kingdom wasn't significantly higher in SSA, we don't know the profile as you move further south toward Libya.
    Last edited by Angela; 31-05-17 at 18:00.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    I don't think so.
    I know of a case where a white woman cheated on her white husband with a black man and got a perfect white daughter, and the white husband was never aware of the cheating.
    Then the white daughter got pregnant from her white boyfriend and got a black son.
    Her white boyfriend rejected her and her black son, untill a DNA test proved what had realy happened.
    That is interesting. I've seen hundreds of mixes and never heard of that before. Do they have available public pics, like a FB profile or something? I believe you, but I find it so bizarre that it must be a rare occurrence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    Sorry for mis-wording things, by northeast Africans I was referring to modern Egyptians, Tunisians, and Algerians. These groups are the closest to the ancient Egyptian samples studied in this study.
    As I explained, they're not north-east Africans: they're North Africans. Plus, this group of ancient Egyptians may have had less SSA than modern Tunisians and Algerians, depending on the tools used. The authors go to great lengths to point out that although there is continuity in Egypt, the ancient Egyptians, who aren't so ancient, are closer to some other groups. From admixture it looks as if they're closer to minimally SSA admixed Saudis. I have to check the Supplement and the other types of analyses to make sure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by I1a3_Young View Post
    That is interesting. I've seen hundreds of mixes and never heard of that before. Do they have available public pics, like a FB profile or something? I believe you, but I find it so bizarre that it must be a rare occurrence.
    no I don't have any pics or links to some site, but it is a genuine case
    I agree with you that most of the time the children have a complexion in between that of the parents, but appearantly it doesn't have to, although in that case I guess it happens in the 2nd generation

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I don't know what you mean by that. They had a lot of "farmer" ancestry. Perhaps it was more Levant Neolithic, but Levant Neolithic contained minority Anatolian Neolithic, just as Anatolian Neolithic contained minority Levant Neolithic. Plus, which European farmers do you mean? The early Neolithic farmers in Europe picked up almost no additional WHG. That only happened thousands of years later in the MN, when it went up to about 20-25% depending on the area.

    Of course, it seems the Egyptians from the era in question did have some Iran Chl. type material, but it wasn't much. They did have, for a lower bound number, about 6% SSA, which European Neolithic people did not.

    The skin pigmentation of European farmers also seems to have been quite different. On the other hand, everybody at that point in time was darker than today.
    Sorry, I was going by the chart Hauteville posted, page 1 of this thread. The ancient Egyptian samples have some Anatolian by that chart (indicated by the shred of "dark blue"), but not much. Natufian seems to be the dominant component.

    I'll admit, I may not know what I'm talking about :).

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    Once again I find myself mostly in agreement with Razib Khan:

    https://gnxp.nofe.me/2017/05/30/anci...medium=twitter

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    The Fayum mummy portraits might give us some idea what the people in the later part of this "ancient Egyptian" period looked like, although they might have a little admixture from Hellenistic and Roman periods.







    There were a few lighter ones too:


    It's to be expected given that there's going to be variation.

    I don't think my Bedouin, Yemeni example is that far off. :)

    Copts generally look different to me, more like some Samaritans if they were darker: not such fine feature in a lot of them, and more SSA. Perhaps the "SSA' in the Copts is less East African than in these ancient Egyptians?

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    Just to throw it in...Nefertiti



    I think she's stunning.

    Kemsit, the Pharaoh Mentuhotep's Nubian queen:


    I think the difference is obvious, yes?

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    Third one down from the top looks very Arabian so you may be right about ancient Egypt being close to Saudis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    The Fayum mummy portraits might give us some idea what the people in the later part of this "ancient Egyptian" period looked like, although they might have a little admixture from Hellenistic and Roman periods.
    It would be interesting to see if Natufian/LevantN heavy SW Asians look similar to Sardinians. I tend to think the stero typical Middle Eastern look derives from IranNeo-CHG.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Once again I find myself mostly in agreement with Razib Khan:

    https://gnxp.nofe.me/2017/05/30/anci...medium=twitter
    Since he talks about various dynasties, how much SSA did the Nubian dynasty had?

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    The ADMIXTURE analysis in Supplementary Info Figure 4 is the best I've seen. It isolates a Natufian(ish) component, IranNeo/CHG(ish) component, AnatoliaNeo(ish) component, and EuroHG(ish) component.

    The results are consistent with what qpADM and D-stats give. Sardinia scores a little in the Natufoan(ish) and IranNeo/CHG(ish) components. What I think has made Sardinia so special is its lack of Steppe/ANE-heavy ancestry which all other Europeans have a lot of. Sardinia might have as much Near Eastern ancestry as other Italians but because they lack Steppe ancestry they pack a lot more AnatoliaNeo ancestry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    It would be interesting to see if Natufian/LevantN heavy SW Asians look similar to Sardinians. I tend to think the stero typical Middle Eastern look derives from IranNeo-CHG.
    I have no idea what you're talking about, as usual. Why would Sardinians look particularly southwest Asian?

    Saudis are 65% SW Asian. Palestinians are 36% SWAsian

    Sardinians are 8.7% SWAsian.

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