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Thread: First Genomes from Ancient Egypt

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I have no idea what you're talking about, as usual. Why would Sardinians look particularly southwest Asian?
    Because Natufians, who makeup most of that SW Asian component in the paper, might be closely related to Anatolia Neolithic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    Because Natufians, who makeup most of that SW Asian component in the paper, might be closely related to Anatolia Neolithic.
    I knew you must have forgotten the percentages for SW Asian in Europeans, but you persist even after I provided the percentages for SW Asian in the post above?

    I take it you've also forgotten that the early farmers who went to Europe were extremely close to Anatolia Neolithic, and that Anatolia Neolithic had only a minority component of Levant Neolithic, which was also not completely Natufian? Perhaps you want to review those papers and the stats for these populations.

    In addition to all of that, of course, the Sardinians have a pretty big chunk of WHG.

    So, again, I don't know why on earth you'd think Sardinians would look particularly southwest Asian.


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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    There's variation everywhere, so I don't think blanket generalizations are at all helpful, but no, most Sardinians don't look at all southwest Asian, if what you mean is Arabian or Palestinian looking. You've obviously not seen very many of them.













    Famous people from Saudi and Palestine:













    I can't imagine where you get these ideas.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    He's implying that Anatolia Neolithic, Levant Neolithic and Natufians all hail from the same stock, Anatolia Neolithic is just more WHG admixed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hauteville View Post
    Those samples have an extra Iran_Neolithic, maybe they are mixed with Hyksos more than purest ancient Egyptians.
    The site where the samples come from have no record of Hyksos or Greek settlements + they are burried in typical Egyptian fashion. There is absolutely no way that they were mixed with Hyksos. They are Iran_Neo admixed because the ancient Egyptian derive most likely from late-Neolithic or Bronze Age Levant. This would explain why ancient Egytpain language is linguistically closer to Semitic than Berber. It is because it left the South Levant as a secondary wave of Afro_Asiatic speakers. After the Proto Berbers left earlier.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DuPidh View Post
    This one is a coment by "washington post" about the topic:The scientists compared these ancient genetics with those of 100 modern Egyptians and 125 modern Ethiopians that had been previously analyzed. If you ask Egyptians, they'll say that they have become more European recently, Krause said. “We see exactly the opposite,” he said.


    So The post is saying that back then many Egyptians from this site looked more European
    Not more European but more Caucasian aka Near Eastern.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by harena View Post
    He's implying that Anatolia Neolithic, Levant Neolithic and Natufians all hail from the same stock, Anatolia Neolithic is just more WHG admixed.
    Anatolian Neolithic was surprisingly more distinct than just WHG admixture. IIRC Anatolian Neolithic was 10% WHG, 20 Natufian and the rest (70%) their own stock, Anatolian farmers.

    Well, they are related by ancient relatives belonging to 3 major admixtures/groups, though in different proportions, and they have drifted way through thousands of years of separation. Here are their genomes in HarappaWorld GedMatch run.

    M041601 Merged M54279 I0746
    Natufian Anatolian EF
    Run time 6.39 Run time 10.20
    S-Indian - S-Indian -
    Baloch - Baloch -
    Caucasian 13.98 Caucasian 35.90
    NE-Euro - NE-Euro 3.91
    SE-Asian - SE-Asian -
    Siberian - Siberian -
    NE-Asian - NE-Asian -
    Papuan 0.68 Papuan -
    American - American -
    Beringian - Beringian -
    Mediterranean 27.39 Mediterranean 46.12
    SW-Asian 53.62 SW-Asian 14.03
    San - San -
    E-African 4.33 E-African -
    Pygmy - Pygmy -
    W-African - W-African -

    They have mostly similar admixtures (living relatively close by), but in so different proportions that it makes them very distinct.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Thank you, LeBrok.

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    Here are the 3 ancestral populations of every Near Easterner today, well major ancestral components. Natufian, Anatolian and Iranian farmers. Iranian is quite different, though united with the first two by local Caucasian component.

    M041601 Merged M54279 I0746 M967114 I1290
    Natufian Anatolian EF Iranian Neolithic 10 kya
    Run time 6.39 Run time 10.20 Run time 7.91
    S-Indian - S-Indian - S-Indian 6.13
    Baloch - Baloch - Baloch 62.71
    Caucasian 13.98 Caucasian 35.90 Caucasian 24.97
    NE-Euro - NE-Euro 3.91 NE-Euro -
    SE-Asian - SE-Asian - SE-Asian -
    Siberian - Siberian - Siberian -
    NE-Asian - NE-Asian - NE-Asian -
    Papuan 0.68 Papuan - Papuan 0.35
    American - American - American -
    Beringian - Beringian - Beringian -
    Mediterranean 27.39 Mediterranean 46.12 Mediterranean -
    SW-Asian 53.62 SW-Asian 14.03 SW-Asian 3.88
    San - San - San 0.18
    E-African 4.33 E-African - E-African -
    Pygmy - Pygmy - Pygmy -
    W-African - W-African - W-African 1.78

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    Now, Levant Neolithic and BA samples, plus modern Lebanese, Palestinian, Bedouin and Egyptian.

    M115616 I0867 M291439 I1706 Modern Modern Modern Modern
    Levant Neolithic Levant BA Lebanese Palestinian Bedouin Egyptian
    Run time 9.93 Run time 13 Run time Run time Run time Run time
    S-Indian - S-Indian 0.26 S-Indian 1 S-Indian 1 S-Indian 0 S-Indian 1
    Baloch - Baloch 3.57 Baloch 11 Baloch 7 Baloch 5 Baloch 3
    Caucasian 25.97 Caucasian 37.26 Caucasian 41 Caucasian 39 Caucasian 21 Caucasian 28
    NE-Euro - NE-Euro - NE-Euro 3 NE-Euro 1 NE-Euro 2 NE-Euro 1
    SE-Asian 0.07 SE-Asian 0.62 SE-Asian 1 SE-Asian 0 SE-Asian 0 SE-Asian 0
    Siberian - Siberian - Siberian 1 Siberian 1 Siberian 0 Siberian 0
    NE-Asian 0.06 NE-Asian 0.43 NE-Asian 1 NE-Asian 0 NE-Asian 0 NE-Asian 0
    Papuan - Papuan - Papuan 0 Papuan 0 Papuan 0 Papuan 0
    American - American 0.34 American 0 American 0 American 0 American 0
    Beringian - Beringian - Beringian 0 Beringian 0 Beringian 0 Beringian 0
    Mediterranean 32.53 Mediterranean 12.01 Mediterranean 13 Mediterranean 12 Mediterranean 7 Mediterranean 17
    SW-Asian 39.86 SW-Asian 44.73 SW-Asian 23 SW-Asian 31 SW-Asian 56 SW-Asian 33
    San - San - San 0 San 0 San 0 San 0
    E-African 1.52 E-African - E-African 3 E-African 5 E-African 5 E-African 12
    Pygmy - Pygmy 0.4 Pygmy 0 Pygmy 0 Pygmy 0 Pygmy 0
    W-African - W-African 0.38 W-African 1 W-African 1 W-African 3 W-African 6

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Now, Levant Neolithic and BA samples, plus modern Lebanese, Palestinian, Bedouin and Egyptian.

    M115616 I0867 M291439 I1706 Modern Modern Modern Modern
    Levant Neolithic Levant BA Lebanese Palestinian Bedouin Egyptian
    Run time 9.93 Run time 13 Run time Run time Run time Run time
    S-Indian - S-Indian 0.26 S-Indian 1 S-Indian 1 S-Indian 0 S-Indian 1
    Baloch - Baloch 3.57 Baloch 11 Baloch 7 Baloch 5 Baloch 3
    Caucasian 25.97 Caucasian 37.26 Caucasian 41 Caucasian 39 Caucasian 21 Caucasian 28
    NE-Euro - NE-Euro - NE-Euro 3 NE-Euro 1 NE-Euro 2 NE-Euro 1
    SE-Asian 0.07 SE-Asian 0.62 SE-Asian 1 SE-Asian 0 SE-Asian 0 SE-Asian 0
    Siberian - Siberian - Siberian 1 Siberian 1 Siberian 0 Siberian 0
    NE-Asian 0.06 NE-Asian 0.43 NE-Asian 1 NE-Asian 0 NE-Asian 0 NE-Asian 0
    Papuan - Papuan - Papuan 0 Papuan 0 Papuan 0 Papuan 0
    American - American 0.34 American 0 American 0 American 0 American 0
    Beringian - Beringian - Beringian 0 Beringian 0 Beringian 0 Beringian 0
    Mediterranean 32.53 Mediterranean 12.01 Mediterranean 13 Mediterranean 12 Mediterranean 7 Mediterranean 17
    SW-Asian 39.86 SW-Asian 44.73 SW-Asian 23 SW-Asian 31 SW-Asian 56 SW-Asian 33
    San - San - San 0 San 0 San 0 San 0
    E-African 1.52 E-African - E-African 3 E-African 5 E-African 5 E-African 12
    Pygmy - Pygmy 0.4 Pygmy 0 Pygmy 0 Pygmy 0 Pygmy 0
    W-African - W-African 0.38 W-African 1 W-African 1 W-African 3 W-African 6
    It's good to remind people that Levant Neolithic is not the same as Natufian. The transition brought more "Caucasus" and Med and decreased the SWAsian. I think that's admixture with Anatolian Neolithic, which shows up in the modeling.

    Then in the Levant Bronze, Caucasian went up, which is in line with what these papers have been talking about, Baloch appears, but SW Asian also went up. Perhaps there was more movement from Arabia north? Virtually no SSA in the Levant Bronze Age, however, so whatever brought the additional SW Asian didn't carry it. Both the East African and West African came after that.

    For SWAsian, it's 23 to 31, Lebanese to Palestinian. Are these Christian Lebanese? If they aren't, the differences might be larger.

    Well, you can see not only the increase in the East African in modern Egyptians, but also the increase in West African.


    Amazing how low the Med component drops. Anatolia Neolithic was 46% Med. So, I guess since Med is the Sardinian cluster, it's mostly Anatolian Neolithic plus WHG?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    It's good to remind people that Levant Neolithic is not the same as Natufian. The transition brought more "Caucasus" and Med and decreased the SWAsian. I think that's admixture with Anatolian Neolithic, which shows up in the modeling.

    Then in the Levant Bronze, Caucasian went up, which is in line with what these papers have been talking about, Baloch appears, but SW Asian also went up. Perhaps there was more movement from Arabia north? Virtually no SSA in the Levant Bronze Age, however, so whatever brought the additional SW Asian didn't carry it. Both the East African and West African came after that.

    For SWAsian, it's 23 to 31, Lebanese to Palestinian. Are these Christian Lebanese? If they aren't, the differences might be larger.

    Well, you can see not only the increase in the East African in modern Egyptians, but also the increase in West African.


    Amazing how low the Med component drops. Anatolia Neolithic was 46% Med. So, I guess since Med is the Sardinian cluster, it's mostly Anatolian Neolithic plus WHG?
    Palestinians are almost true BA Levant, plus 5 percent of baloch and 6 percent of SSA. Amazing. I'm betting that ancient Jews will turn very similar and most likely Phoenicians too.

    Here is Anatolian and EEF, BA Italian and Sardinian

    M54279 I0746 M405327 I1506 NE1 Remedello Average Modern from Harappa table
    Anatolian EF Hungary, Polgár-Ferenci-hát 7.2kya Bronze Age (Neolithic Genome) Sardinian
    Run time 10.2 Run time 19.95 Run time Run time
    S-Indian - S-Indian - S-Indian - S-Indian
    Baloch - Baloch - Baloch - Baloch
    Caucasian 35.9 Caucasian 28.27 Caucasian 11.03 Caucasian 20
    NE-Euro 3.91 NE-Euro 12.13 NE-Euro 21.25 NE-Euro 13
    SE-Asian - SE-Asian - SE-Asian 0.61 SE-Asian
    Siberian - Siberian - Siberian - Siberian
    NE-Asian - NE-Asian - NE-Asian - NE-Asian
    Papuan - Papuan - Papuan - Papuan
    American - American - American - American
    Beringian - Beringian - Beringian - Beringian
    Mediterranean 46.12 Mediterranean 45.75 Mediterranean 60.61 Mediterranean 60
    SW-Asian 14.03 SW-Asian 13.45 SW-Asian 5.50 SW-Asian 7
    San - San - San - San
    E-African - E-African - E-African - E-African
    Pygmy - Pygmy 0.05 Pygmy 0.08 Pygmy
    W-African - W-African 0.35 W-African 0.92 W-African

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Palestinians are almost true BA Levant, plus 5 percent of baloch and 6 percent of SSA. Amazing. I'm betting that ancient Jews will turn very similar and most likely Phoenicians too.
    so the Palestinians are not the Filistines, the Sea People that settled in Gaza

    maybe the Jews and the Phoenicians have common ancestors, but that is then from before they entered in history
    Phoenicians are from the Lebanese coast, often a place for refugees from inland, trying to escape from the domination of the Hittites or the Egyptians
    and the origin of the Jews are marginal herders in the hills in the interface between the Southern Levant and the Negev desert who expanded into the vacuum created by the Egyptians when they abandonned the Levant

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Anatolian Neolithic was surprisingly more distinct than just WHG admixture. IIRC Anatolian Neolithic was 10% WHG, 20 Natufian and the rest (70%) their own stock, Anatolian farmers.

    Well, they are related by ancient relatives belonging to 3 major admixtures/groups, though in different proportions, and they have drifted way through thousands of years of separation. Here are their genomes in HarappaWorld GedMatch run.

    M041601 Merged M54279 I0746
    Natufian Anatolian EF
    Run time 6.39 Run time 10.20
    S-Indian - S-Indian -
    Baloch - Baloch -
    Caucasian 13.98 Caucasian 35.90
    NE-Euro - NE-Euro 3.91
    SE-Asian - SE-Asian -
    Siberian - Siberian -
    NE-Asian - NE-Asian -
    Papuan 0.68 Papuan -
    American - American -
    Beringian - Beringian -
    Mediterranean 27.39 Mediterranean 46.12
    SW-Asian 53.62 SW-Asian 14.03
    San - San -
    E-African 4.33 E-African -
    Pygmy - Pygmy -
    W-African - W-African -

    They have mostly similar admixtures (living relatively close by), but in so different proportions that it makes them very distinct.

    I'm not too sure about backward modeling very ancient samples like that, some of those components are partly derived from Natufian/Anatolian Farmers not the other way around.
    IIRC Lazaridis modeled Natufians roughly as 50% Basal Eurasian and 50% WHG; Levant Neolithic, Anatolian farmers, EEF and Copper Age Iberia are all on the same cline, just look at a PCA.

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    Post at my blog about the new ancient Egyptian mtDNA results: First look at ancient Egyptian mtDNA

    mtDNA doesn't get anymore SouthWest Asian than the ancient Egyptian's mtDNA. There isn't a lot of East African mtDNA in my database. The stuff I've read about East African mtDNA indicates their West Eurasian mtDNA shares a lot of similarities.

    R0a, HV1, T1a, J2a2, N1, M1a might all ultimately derive from Natufian-like people. N1, T1a, J2a link Neolithic Anatolians with Natufian-rich people.

    Think about this. Andronovo, Bronze age British, and these ancient Egyptians were roughly contemporary to each other. Each carries roughly the same frequency of T1a and I as the ancient Egyptians. That demonstrates the widespread distribution of Neolithic West Asian ancestry.

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    the calls for Y-DNA of the 3 males :

    https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2017...ancient-egypt/

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    This paper's ADMIXTURE analysis is maybe the most interesting aspect of the paper. It's 100% consistent with results I and others have gotten using D-stats provided by David Wesoloski at Eurogenes. Recall that the ADMIXTURE isolated Natufian, AnatoliaNeolthic, CHG, and Europe HG centered components.

    Here are some interesting details the ADMIXTURE analysis shows...

    -Saami's European-side has more Euro_HG(WHG, EHG) ancestry than any Europeans including Lithuanians and Finns. D-stats indicate they have 10-15%(exact percentages might be wrong) Scandinavian Hunter Gatherer ancestry which was rich in EHG and also had its own unique alleles. D-stats and this paper's ADMIXTURE give Saami roughly 40% EuroHG ancestry, 20% CHG ancestry, 15% AnatoliaNeo ancestry, and 25% something East Asian-like.

    -Southern Italians score as much in the Natufian component as Iranians which indicates their Near Eastern ancestors lived south and west of Iran.

    -BedouinB might be mostly Natufian(ish). They score 70% in the Natufian component, 20% in the CHG component, and 20% in the AnatoliaN component.

    -YemaniteJew, ancient Egyptians, and Jordan_EBA are all really similar to each other. They score 50% in the Natufian component, 20-30% in CHG, and 20-30% in AnatoliaN. All modern SouthWest Asians score an extra dose in CHG(30-40%) and significantly less in Natufian(35-40%).

    -The Near Eastern ancestor of North African Jews and European Jews was probably similar to the average modern Levantie. The Near Eastern ancestor of Yemanite Jews was probably similar to Jordan_EBA and ancient Egyptians.

  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    The site where the samples come from have no record of Hyksos or Greek settlements + they are burried in typical Egyptian fashion. There is absolutely no way that they were mixed with Hyksos. They are Iran_Neo admixed because the ancient Egyptian derive most likely from late-Neolithic or Bronze Age Levant. This would explain why ancient Egytpain language is linguistically closer to Semitic than Berber. It is because it left the South Levant as a secondary wave of Afro_Asiatic speakers. After the Proto Berbers left earlier.
    However the predynastic sites that look like the best candidates for the Protoegyptians (the Naqada horizon) are rather concentrated in Upper Egypt. I guess only ancient DNA will tell, but in my mind that makes an origin from the Levant unlikely.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkoZ View Post
    However the predynastic sites that look like the best candidates for the Protoegyptians (the Naqada horizon) are rather concentrated in Upper Egypt. I guess only ancient DNA will tell, but in my mind that makes an origin from the Levant unlikely.
    prior to Naqada was the 8.2 ka climate event, which attracted all kind of herders and farmers from SW Asia to the Nile Delta and beyond, into Northern Africa
    after the 8.2 ka event, the Sahara became 'green again' till 5.9 ka when the Sahara desert expanded again, which drove many herders & farmers back into the Nile Valley
    the Protoegyptians probable were in Northern Africa since 8.2 ka and their origin was SW Asia
    of course, later chalcolithic influxes are also possible and likely

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    prior to Naqada was the 8.2 ka climate event, which attracted all kind of herders and farmers from SW Asia to the Nile Delta and beyond, into Northern Africa
    after the 8.2 ka event, the Sahara became 'green again' till 5.9 ka when the Sahara desert expanded again, which drove many herders & farmers back into the Nile Valley
    the Protoegyptians probable were in Northern Africa since 8.2 ka and their origin was SW Asia
    of course, later chalcolithic influxes are also possible and likely
    While I think that's possible, the most commonly proposed origin for Afrasian seems to be in the pre-neolithic Eastern Sahara and the Horn of Africa.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    Because Natufians, who makeup most of that SW Asian component in the paper, might be closely related to Anatolia Neolithic.
    Sorry, but if you go by Hauteville's charts posted in the first page of this thread, you'll find that Natufians aren't anywhere near Anatolian Neolithic farmers. They are way way different. They lack that "dark blue" component. Natufians were pretty much Bedouins if I recall. Leagues away from Anatolian.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkoZ View Post
    While I think that's possible, the most commonly proposed origin for Afrasian seems to be in the pre-neolithic Eastern Sahara and the Horn of Africa.
    that is what I tought also, untill the Y-DNA of the Natufians was published about a year ago
    since then, I'm pretty convinced that the Afroasiatic languages originated in the Levant along with haplo E1b1b1 and also spread along with this clade out of the Levant

    as for the 8.2 ka event : before 8.2 ka the 'green Sahara' was full of HG, during the 8.2 ka event, which lasted a few centuries, the Sahara was empty, and after the event, the 'green Sahara' was full of herders

    whatever happened in the Nile delta at that time, nobody knows because everything is burried under very deep layers of sediments

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    From the graphic posted I don't see that at all, unless you're coining your own definitions for population groups. Northeast Africans are Horners.

    The only "Africans" the ancient Egyptians from this period plot close to are North Africans, who are mostly Levantines with SSA, more than half of it coming in the last 2000 years, presumably through the Arab slave trade, plus whatever traces of the prior population(s) are left. None of that is a surprise.

    Anyone who has been paying attention to the papers knows that two major population flows moved out of the Near East, the western farmers, and then a few thousand years later a population related to the Iranian farmers. Both spread over vast distances and mixed with earlier populations where ever they went. The first group spread all along the southern coast of the Mediterranean, among many other places, and even deep into Africa. We can see the traces of the second major Near East group in northern Africa too, but in much smaller percentages.

    Basically, as LeBrok pointed out, the Bronze Age may be the last really major population upheaval in western Eurasia. As I stated in another thread, the second gene flow out of the Near East, which was less consequential for most of Europe was like a pincer movement into Europe, I believe, with part of it going over the Caucasus and onto the steppe, and part of it going into southeastern and southern Europe, as well as all over the Near East, and some of it even reaching North Africa.

    It looks like a modified version of the old Dienekes theory of the Womb of Nations to me, but as you have to consider also the western farmers, it's not just the Caucasus area, but the Anatolia/Levant region as well.
    While related, the admixture in northern Europe is from mesolithic age CHG and doesn't appear male mediated, the admixture event in the western Middle East is Iran_CHL/Iran_NEO, which is a distant, younger relative. If you try to model north Europeans as Iran_CHL/NEO, it won't jive.

    Let's face it, until J1, J2, G2...etc start showing up in droves on the neolithic steppe, I will still consider CHG admixture in northern Europe as female driven. We know R1 was originally WHG/EHG along with I.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron1981 View Post
    While related, the admixture in northern Europe is from mesolithic age CHG and doesn't appear male mediated, the admixture event in the western Middle East is Iran_CHL/Iran_NEO, which is a distant, younger relative. If you try to model north Europeans as Iran_CHL/NEO, it won't jive.

    Let's face it, until J1, J2, G2...etc start showing up in droves on the neolithic steppe, I will still consider CHG admixture in northern Europe as female driven. We know R1 was originally WHG/EHG along with I.
    You might want to back that up, because Iran_ChL/EHG is exactly the model Lazaridis proposed for Yamnaya.

    R1 wasn't originally WHG-EHG for god's sake. Stop being silly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    since then, I'm pretty convinced that the Afroasiatic languages originated in the Levant along with haplo E1b1b1 and also spread along with this clade out of the Levant
    I guess more samples are needed. Though E-M35 should be around thousands of years before Natufian.

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