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Thread: How is it possible for I1 to exist?

  1. #26
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    It is pretty bad ass to be on a horse swinging some intimidating weapon, no doubt about that.

    But it's not a magical invulnerable super weapon.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    We have to keep in mind that original horses were very small. Google "Przewalski horse" or Mongolian horse. That's why they were not used to pull wagons. If anything they could only be used to ride them. Because of the size they were easier to tame, mount and ride by people. Anthony sees first horse riding at Botai culture 4,000 years BC or so.
    At the time of first chariots, horses were bigger and stronger, by selective breeding.

    like humans the size of horses varies
    the size of the horse depended on the climate and the amount of food available

    Anthony mentions that first size variation of horses indicating some degree of selection and domestication occurs in the Carpathian Basin 4.5 ka
    that fits well with the first horses trained for chariot warfare 500 years later

    he argues that 'cheeckpieces' found in the steppe indicates the horses were ridden earlier
    but not everyone agrees with that

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Gentlemen, this may all be very true, but not even the most rabid purveyors of this version of the Indo-European migrations would contend that the kind of mounted warfare you're describing was in existence in the time in question. The equipment for it wasn't developed until at least a thousand years in the future, sometimes two thousand years.
    I wasn't implying the IE were chivalric mounted masters, I was going off topic with Apsurdistan about general cavalry capabilities in the modern sense, as he is comparing himself in battle to mounted fighters.

    A typical female teen-aged barrel racer around here would probably take him down :) He should come to a rodeo here and see if he can convince a cowboy or cowgirl to a duel :)

    Even barring the lack of mounted combat, horses are a great tool. They are great for transport, supply chains, and scouting - all critical to success of any military or benign large scale operation.

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    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...-first-farmers

    This was the thread discussing the find of the earliest I1 found. It's in Hungary in the LBK culture, but was the only one found among mostly G2a and another I*. Autosomally I think this I1 was mostly EEF.

    I read that no samples of the Funnel Beaker DNA have been obtained. The maps of that zone and the time period could probably solve the I1 mystery if enough samples are discovered.

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    this one was pre-I1, but not I1 :

    Sweden Stora Förvar cave, Stora Karlsö Island [SfF11] M 7500-7250 cal. BP

    U5a1 Skoglund 2014

    https://genetiker.wordpress.com/y-sn...ora-forvar-11/

    we don't have the calls for the LBK sample, we don't know if he is a candidate to be ancestral to the I1 clade

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    Quote Originally Posted by I1a3_Young View Post
    I wasn't implying the IE were chivalric mounted masters, I was going off topic with Apsurdistan about general cavalry capabilities in the modern sense, as he is comparing himself in battle to mounted fighters.

    A typical female teen-aged barrel racer around here would probably take him down :) He should come to a rodeo here and see if he can convince a cowboy or cowgirl to a duel :)

    Even barring the lack of mounted combat, horses are a great tool. They are great for transport, supply chains, and scouting - all critical to success of any military or benign large scale operation.
    I agree.

    Now that's a rodeo event I'd like to see. :)


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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    Me too... but someone would get seriously hurt and it wouldn't be me.

    I'm a cowboy.... gonna steal the horse I ride
    And I'm wanted.... dead or alive

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    Quote Originally Posted by Apsurdistan View Post
    That looks basically like a donkey... I wonder how fast it can run

    You could drop-kick someone off of that mule or tackle him. Or jump on it behind the rider now you got his back how vulnerable is he then? Wouldn't wanna be in that position.
    See, first horses were used only for transportation. This horses can trot 50 km a day with a man on their back and weapons. Even if these warriors fight on foot and use horses only for transport, they will outmaneuver infantry and come to the battle rested, unlike infantry marching to the fight for few days and being exhausted. American Indians used horses like this at the beginning. Just ride them to the battle or for a sneak attack far away.

    Cavalry existed around the world pretty much till WW2. If it wasn't effective in a battle it would have been dropped long time ago like chariots, right? In reality..., I would love to see you standing there in front of few thousand strong cavalry galloping at you, ground is literally shaking, the roar of hoofs is getting closer and closer, and this immense mass of horses and men is going to hit you soon with speed...
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    See, first horses were used only for transportation. This horses can trot 50 km a day with a man on their back and weapons. Even if these warriors fight on foot and use horses only for transport, they will outmaneuver infantry and come to the battle rested, unlike infantry marching to the fight for few days and being exhausted. American Indians used horses like this at the beginning. Just ride them to the battle or for a sneak attack far away.

    Cavalry existed around the world pretty much till WW2. If it wasn't effective in a battle it would have been dropped long time ago like chariots, right? In reality..., I would love to see you standing there in front of few thousand strong cavalry galloping at you, ground is literally shaking, the roar of hoofs is getting closer and closer, and this immense mass of horses and men is going to hit you soon with speed...
    Of course until vehicles were invented and became widely used. That's why the word horsepower is still used.

    And obviously I wouldn't just stand there. I'd use a horse whistle that works like a dog whistle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Apsurdistan View Post
    Me too... but someone would get seriously hurt and it wouldn't be me.

    I'm a cowboy.... gonna steal the horse I ride
    And I'm wanted.... dead or alive
    Whoa..all this time I thought the lyrics went "On a steel horse I ride"...lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    I would love to see you standing there in front of few thousand strong cavalry galloping at you, ground is literally shaking, the roar of hoofs is getting closer and closer, and this immense mass of horses and men is going to hit you soon with speed...
    that is iron age, it didn't exist in bronze age

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I agree.

    Now that's a rodeo event I'd like to see. :)
    So would I, bc Apsurdistan will win.

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    I picture results like these, and these aren't "war" horses trained to bite and kick.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbCHZVDfhi0

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    These two papers might be of some interest:

    http://escholarship.org/uc/item/8qq4w9q5

    http://www.academia.edu/3535004/The_...d_warfare_2011 (the 'Horseback Riding and Warfare' section in particular and the disagreements with Robert Drews' Early Riders, another worthwhile read)

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    Quote Originally Posted by LATGAL View Post
    These two papers might be of some interest:

    http://escholarship.org/uc/item/8qq4w9q5

    http://www.academia.edu/3535004/The_...d_warfare_2011 (the 'Horseback Riding and Warfare' section in particular and the disagreements with Robert Drews' Early Riders, another worthwhile read)
    Thanks for the links. My memory wasn't that far off: 1-2000 years after Corded Ware moved into central Europe.

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    The first study puts forth an idea of organized mounted warfare that depends on the earliest appearance of bronze jointed bits. They acknowledge that horses were domesticated 3500-4500 BC but that bits weren't in common use until 1000 BC.

    I think that's a leap to say that there could not have been organized mounted warfare in 2500-3500 years of having domesticated horses.

    You don't need a complicated bit or a saddle to fight on horseback, and certainly not a chariot

    From: http://www.academia.edu/3535004/The_...d_warfare_2011


    On the subject of horse sizes, the Eneolithic (5200–3300 BC) horses of the Eurasian steppes were big enough to ride into battle. More than 70% of the Late Eneolithic horses at Dereivka,Ukraine (4200–3700 BC) and Botai, Kazakhstan (3600–3100 BC) stood 136–144 cm a tthe withers (shoulders), or about 13–14 hands high (Benecke and von den Dreisch2003;Bibikova1970). The horses ridden into battle by Roman cavalrymen commonly measured 120–150 cm at the withers (Hyland1990, p. 68), and those of the American Plains Indians stood about 130–140 cm, or ‘a little under 14 hands’ (Ewers1955, p. 33. Eneolithic steppe horses were about the same size as Roman and American Indian cavalry horses. On the question of rope bits, the authors conducted a riding experiment in which two expert riders rode never-bitted horses with rope and leather bits (Brownand Anthony1998; Anthony et al.2006). Our riders had ‘no problem’ controlling their horses. The American Plains Indians, regarded in the nineteenth century as among thefinest light cavalry in the world, used a ‘war bridle’ that was just a rope looped around the lower jaw (Ewers1955, p. 76). History and experiment both show that horses the same size as Eneolithic steppe horses can be ridden effectively at a gallop, even in warfare, with a rope bit
    Horses probably were domesticated as an inexpensive source of winter meat by people who already possessed herds of domesticated cattle and sheep. The bones of domesticated cattle and sheep first appeared in sites in the western steppes, between the Dnieper and Ural Rivers, north of the Black and Caspian Seas, about 5300–4800 BC
    Horse-head maces signaled an iconic status for horses in the lower Danube valley at about 4200–3800 BC; just when horses were introduced, the intrusive Suvorovo graves appeared, and hundreds of long-established tell settlements were abandoned. Mounted raiding could have contributed to the Karanovo VI–Gumelnit¸a collapse(Anthony2007, chapter 11,2010).

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    See, first horses were used only for transportation. This horses can trot 50 km a day with a man on their back and weapons. Even if these warriors fight on foot and use horses only for transport, they will outmaneuver infantry and come to the battle rested, unlike infantry marching to the fight for few days and being exhausted. American Indians used horses like this at the beginning. Just ride them to the battle or for a sneak attack far away.

    Cavalry existed around the world pretty much till WW2. If it wasn't effective in a battle it would have been dropped long time ago like chariots, right? In reality..., I would love to see you standing there in front of few thousand strong cavalry galloping at you, ground is literally shaking, the roar of hoofs is getting closer and closer, and this immense mass of horses and men is going to hit you soon with speed...
    I have not the movie nor the reporter's pictures but I agree about the reasoning.
    I don't know the size of the first steppes poneys but after some selection it has produced somewhere some very robust, healthy and speedy little hairy horses like the Bretons' ones in the 800's (9th cy) very mobile and superior to higher horses on hilly grovy grounds, allowing approaches with a rain of projected spears and an immediate retreat before other same attack: the Franks had bad rememberings of that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by I1a3_Young View Post
    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...-first-farmers

    This was the thread discussing the find of the earliest I1 found. It's in Hungary in the LBK culture, but was the only one found among mostly G2a and another I*. Autosomally I think this I1 was mostly EEF.

    I read that no samples of the Funnel Beaker DNA have been obtained. The maps of that zone and the time period could probably solve the I1 mystery if enough samples are discovered.
    Concerning the Western part of FBK (Long Barrows and affiliated megaliths cultures input) I rather think the most of males were Y-I2a2 (most numerous?) and a kind of Y-I2a1b - concerning the East-Germany-Poland part, I'm less sure and some Y-I1 's coud have been involved, yes, with some rare others Y-haplos?. Who knows for now?

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    M253 and H5 heatmap from my Geno2 nextgen results

    ydnam253heatmap.JPG

    mtdnah5heatmap.JPG

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    Quote Originally Posted by Apsurdistan View Post
    M253 and H5 heatmap from my Geno2 nextgen results

    ydnam253heatmap.JPG

    mtdnah5heatmap.JPG
    Oh my god the Ydna migration map is so wrong. Who ever made it didn't take much time making it hahahha, from Anatolia to central Asia xD .. and don't get me started on that trans-continental epic path to Manchuria or whatever xD.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IronSide View Post
    Oh my god the Ydna migration map is so wrong. Who ever made it didn't take much time making it hahahha, from Anatolia to central Asia xD .. and don't get me started on that trans-continental epic path to Manchuria or whatever xD.
    Yeah that's why I posted it. That's not even Manchuria it's more like Tunguzia or something. I thought NatGeo should be a 100% legit and professional but those maps definitely look kinda odd.

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    I1 certainly didn't exist in only one population for 20,000+ years. Think about it. Basically all R1b today is R1b M269. R1b split from R1a probably like 25,000 years ago and R1b M269 expanded lass than 10,000 years ago. Now that doesn't mean R1b remained isolated in one population which then left isolation 6,000 years ago. Ancient DNA from Europe shows R1b1 was very popular and widespread in the Mesolithic. What happened is 90%+ of that Mesolithic R1b1 went extinct and single Mesolithic R1b1 lineage known as R1b M269 rapidly expanded maybe begging in 4000 BC.

    The same is probably the case for I1. I1 probably existed in several Mesolithic populations and then in around 3000 BC or whatever a single I1 lineage became very popular while most of the other I1 lineages became extinct.

    Also, the oldest example of I1 is from some of mainland Europe's first farmers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IronSide View Post
    Many Mesolithic and Neolithic lineages disappeared (or significantly reduced) after the arrival of PIE speakers, C1a2-V20 and H2 almost don't exist in Europe anymore, the majority of G2a branches that were not assimilated by Indo-Europeans are confined to mountainous regions and Mediterranean Islands in low numbers,
    H2 still consistently pops up in Europe. It isn't odd for G2a to reach 5% and it's rare for it to be at 0%. It makes more sense any G2a in Europe is simply left overs from the first farmers than the Indo European stuff. What we used to call Germanic I2a2-M223 might actually be WHG-thenEEF I2a2a-M223 and this lineage is everywhere in Europe. Lastly British Neolithic specfic I2a clades also take up a few percent sometimes 5-10% of modern Isles Y DNA.

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    I've been mulling over the I1 genesis for a while now and wanted to bounce this idea here:

    Was I1 merely a successful I* nested within the spreading EEF G2a population?

    IJK was out of Africa and in the "old world" zone. K are those who went east/northeast, J are those who stayed, and I2 went west/northwest and populated Europe after it thawed.

    I have seen instances of I* found in northern Iran and sprinkled around generally in that area.

    So lets separate the I2 and I* into two batches. Those who left to Europe and those who stayed behind, like the J's. During the early european farmer expansion containing mostly G2a, perhaps there was an I*, the first person to develop the M253 mutation.

    We do have the first I1 sample in Hungary in the LBK culture, which was autosomally EEF and autosomally similar to the G2a found. Nowhere else among all the I2 samples do we find I1. I1 spread into Scandinavia and largely reproductively outperformed the I2 already there.

    Now there could be many kinds of I*, there could have been I* who lived among the I2 but were different from the I* left behind in the east. We need more data, obviously, but some things could help:

    1. YDNA samples from Funnel Beaker (currently have zero)
    2. Some type of I* analysis to see where exactly they fall, such as closeness to I1, I2, etc. How are the I* found in Europe different from those elsewhere? I think that with some deep analysis we could get a clue to the formation of I1. Is there any good info or detailed analysis of I* out there? I suppose I'll start tracking I* lists and see if they list SNPs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by I1a3_Young View Post
    I've been mulling over the I1 genesis for a while now and wanted to bounce this idea here:

    Was I1 merely a successful I* nested within the spreading EEF G2a population?

    IJK was out of Africa and in the "old world" zone. K are those who went east/northeast, J are those who stayed, and I2 went west/northwest and populated Europe after it thawed.

    I have seen instances of I* found in northern Iran and sprinkled around generally in that area.

    So lets separate the I2 and I* into two batches. Those who left to Europe and those who stayed behind, like the J's. During the early european farmer expansion containing mostly G2a, perhaps there was an I*, the first person to develop the M253 mutation.

    We do have the first I1 sample in Hungary in the LBK culture, which was autosomally EEF and autosomally similar to the G2a found. Nowhere else among all the I2 samples do we find I1. I1 spread into Scandinavia and largely reproductively outperformed the I2 already there.

    Now there could be many kinds of I*, there could have been I* who lived among the I2 but were different from the I* left behind in the east. We need more data, obviously, but some things could help:

    1. YDNA samples from Funnel Beaker (currently have zero)
    2. Some type of I* analysis to see where exactly they fall, such as closeness to I1, I2, etc. How are the I* found in Europe different from those elsewhere? I think that with some deep analysis we could get a clue to the formation of I1. Is there any good info or detailed analysis of I* out there? I suppose I'll start tracking I* lists and see if they list SNPs.
    My personal opinion is that talking about I1 is misleading because 99% of I1 are DF29 but DF29 is much much younger. So for me the Hungarian sample from 7000 years ago gets lumped into the same boat as the various other I or I1 branches that died off over 27,000 years. The question is what was the genesis of DF29. What caused such a young subclade to expand? Was it purely the Germanic or Viking migrations over the past 1500 years?

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