Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 51 to 75 of 86

Thread: How is it possible for I1 to exist?

  1. #51
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered5000 Experience Points
    I1a3_Young's Avatar
    Join Date
    03-05-17
    Location
    Arkansas
    Posts
    516
    Points
    7,688
    Level
    26
    Points: 7,688, Level: 26
    Level completed: 23%, Points required for next Level: 462
    Overall activity: 2.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I1 Z63*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H5b1

    Ethnic group
    Basically British
    Country: USA - Arkansas



    Quote Originally Posted by mwauthy View Post
    My personal opinion is that talking about I1 is misleading because 99% of I1 are DF29 but DF29 is much much younger. So for me the Hungarian sample from 7000 years ago gets lumped into the same boat as the various other I or I1 branches that died off over 27,000 years. The question is what was the genesis of DF29. What caused such a young subclade to expand? Was it purely the Germanic or Viking migrations over the past 1500 years?
    That Hungarian sample attributed to LBK called "BAB 5" was tested for only I-M270 (I) and I-M253 (I1). We don't know if he was DF29 or any of the other 303 I1 markers.

    The I* in that group had rather ambiguous test results. He was solidly positive for F but the I-M270 was sketchy. Negative for J though so they place him in I*.

    The SNP tests performed on these old samples aren't very detailed at all. I suspect it's related to sample quality & quantity but if there's a chance we could get BAB 5 DNA to a full Y genome I would be so excited.

    BAB5 also didn't have any solid dating in the study. They stuck him in that group based on proximity I suppose.

  2. #52
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered5000 Experience Points
    I1a3_Young's Avatar
    Join Date
    03-05-17
    Location
    Arkansas
    Posts
    516
    Points
    7,688
    Level
    26
    Points: 7,688, Level: 26
    Level completed: 23%, Points required for next Level: 462
    Overall activity: 2.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I1 Z63*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H5b1

    Ethnic group
    Basically British
    Country: USA - Arkansas



    https://yfull.com/tree/I1/

    There are currently 31 Yfull kits tested that are I1 but aren't under DF29. They still have the same 304 mutations of I1 though.

    I'm not sure when M-253 developed. Was it early in the I1 chain of mutations or late? If it were late then there could be many I* that are actually just pre-M253 I1 but still would be considered I1.

  3. #53
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    08-12-16
    Posts
    272
    Points
    3,673
    Level
    17
    Points: 3,673, Level: 17
    Level completed: 56%, Points required for next Level: 177
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I-FGC24357
    MtDNA haplogroup
    K2a6

    Ethnic group
    Hainaut Belgium and Quebec Canada
    Country: USA - California



    Quote Originally Posted by I1a3_Young View Post
    https://yfull.com/tree/I1/

    There are currently 31 Yfull kits tested that are I1 but aren't under DF29. They still have the same 304 mutations of I1 though.

    I'm not sure when M-253 developed. Was it early in the I1 chain of mutations or late? If it were late then there could be many I* that are actually just pre-M253 I1 but still would be considered I1.
    That's a good point. Which of those 304 mutations are old and from the time when I1 split from I2 and which of those mutations including M253 might be more recent. Hopefully more samples can be discovered with full y sequencing.
    What's interesting is that those non DF29 samples all have a similar age to DF29. It's as if they all came from the same bottleneck and area but DF29 became much more successful.
    Last edited by mwauthy; 15-06-17 at 19:38. Reason: Add more

  4. #54
    Banned Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    09-09-14
    Posts
    232
    Points
    3,293
    Level
    16
    Points: 3,293, Level: 16
    Level completed: 61%, Points required for next Level: 157
    Overall activity: 2.0%


    Country: Finland



    Quote Originally Posted by mwauthy View Post
    My personal opinion is that talking about I1 is misleading because 99% of I1 are DF29 but DF29 is much much younger. So for me the Hungarian sample from 7000 years ago gets lumped into the same boat as the various other I or I1 branches that died off over 27,000 years. The question is what was the genesis of DF29. What caused such a young subclade to expand? Was it purely the Germanic or Viking migrations over the past 1500 years?
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-DF29/

    Finland gets hits from start to finnish of the tree and all branches, explain that..

  5. #55
    Elite member Achievements:
    Tagger Second ClassThree FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points
    Fire Haired14's Avatar
    Join Date
    20-04-14
    Posts
    2,194
    Points
    28,146
    Level
    51
    Points: 28,146, Level: 51
    Level completed: 55%, Points required for next Level: 504
    Overall activity: 31.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b DF27*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2a2b1

    Country: USA - Illinois



    Quote Originally Posted by Ukko View Post
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-DF29/

    Finland gets hits from start to finnish of the tree and all branches, explain that..
    Exactly. I have a very immature hypothesis that I1 is an Indo European lineage from the Steppe and that Finns are a mixture of an I1 Indo European speaking people and a N1c Uralic speaking people.

  6. #56
    Banned Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    09-09-14
    Posts
    232
    Points
    3,293
    Level
    16
    Points: 3,293, Level: 16
    Level completed: 61%, Points required for next Level: 157
    Overall activity: 2.0%


    Country: Finland



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    Exactly. I have a very immature hypothesis that I1 is an Indo European lineage from the Steppe and that Finns are a mixture of an I1 Indo European speaking people and a N1c Uralic speaking people.
    I have been saying this for years but still think I1 came by boat, they where both running the long distance trade, came in to conflict and then later merged in Sweden-Finland.
    This is the origin of Germanic language, Æsir–Vanir mythology, Odin/Väinämöinen, many sagas etc.


    In the Scandinavian sources they are the descendants of Yngvi-Frey of Vanaheim. Yngling means descendant of Frey, and in the Gesta Danorum of Saxo Grammaticus they are called the sons of Frey. Several of these kings appear in Beowulf: Eadgils (Adils), Onela (Ale), and Ohthere (Ottar Vendelkråka), but here they are called Scylfings (see the Beowulf section below).
    Snorri Sturluson hints at a less divine origin in Skáldskaparmál for this dynasty: One war-king was named Skelfir; and his house is called the House of Skilfings: his kindred is in the Eastern Land. In the 13th century, the official Swedish/Scandinavian term for the modern-day Southern Finland was "Eastern Land", Österland, i.e. the eastern half of Sweden at the time.
    In Ynglinga Saga in 1220 AD, Snorri Sturluson discusses marriages between Swedish and Finnish royal families. In 1220 AD (c.), in the Skáldskaparmál section of Edda, Sturluson discusses King Halfdan the Old, Nór's great-grandson, and nine of his sons who are the forefathers of various royal lineages, including "Yngvi, from whom the Ynglings are descended". According to Orkneyinga Saga in 1230 AD, Nór founded Norway. He was a direct descendant of Fornjótr, the King of "Gotlandi, Kænlandi and Finnlandi".


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Æsir–Vanir_War

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yngling

  7. #57
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    Most Popular
    bicicleur's Avatar
    Join Date
    27-01-13
    Location
    Zwevegem, Belgium
    Posts
    5,232
    Points
    41,171
    Level
    62
    Points: 41,171, Level: 62
    Level completed: 64%, Points required for next Level: 479
    Overall activity: 7.0%


    Country: Belgium - Flanders



    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired14 View Post
    Exactly. I have a very immature hypothesis that I1 is an Indo European lineage from the Steppe and that Finns are a mixture of an I1 Indo European speaking people and a N1c Uralic speaking people.
    I think that I1 was in Finland earlier than the Finns.
    I1 came by boat, the Finns over land.

  8. #58
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    Most Popular
    bicicleur's Avatar
    Join Date
    27-01-13
    Location
    Zwevegem, Belgium
    Posts
    5,232
    Points
    41,171
    Level
    62
    Points: 41,171, Level: 62
    Level completed: 64%, Points required for next Level: 479
    Overall activity: 7.0%


    Country: Belgium - Flanders



    Quote Originally Posted by Ukko View Post
    I have been saying this for years but still think I1 came by boat, they where both running the long distance trade, came in to conflict and then later merged in Sweden-Finland.
    This is the origin of Germanic language, Æsir–Vanir mythology, Odin/Väinämöinen, many sagas etc.






    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Æsir–Vanir_War

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yngling
    I think they were fishermen on the Baltic and became an important trading partner in the Nordic Bronze Age.

  9. #59
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    Most Popular
    bicicleur's Avatar
    Join Date
    27-01-13
    Location
    Zwevegem, Belgium
    Posts
    5,232
    Points
    41,171
    Level
    62
    Points: 41,171, Level: 62
    Level completed: 64%, Points required for next Level: 479
    Overall activity: 7.0%


    Country: Belgium - Flanders



    Quote Originally Posted by I1a3_Young View Post
    That Hungarian sample attributed to LBK called "BAB 5" was tested for only I-M270 (I) and I-M253 (I1). We don't know if he was DF29 or any of the other 303 I1 markers.

    The I* in that group had rather ambiguous test results. He was solidly positive for F but the I-M270 was sketchy. Negative for J though so they place him in I*.

    The SNP tests performed on these old samples aren't very detailed at all. I suspect it's related to sample quality & quantity but if there's a chance we could get BAB 5 DNA to a full Y genome I would be so excited.

    BAB5 also didn't have any solid dating in the study. They stuck him in that group based on proximity I suppose.
    If BAB5 has been tested for only 1 of the 304 markers, he is very unlikely to be ancestral to I1. That would be a big coincidence. Especially as we don't know whether M253 is an early or a late SNP in the row of 304.

  10. #60
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    Most Popular
    bicicleur's Avatar
    Join Date
    27-01-13
    Location
    Zwevegem, Belgium
    Posts
    5,232
    Points
    41,171
    Level
    62
    Points: 41,171, Level: 62
    Level completed: 64%, Points required for next Level: 479
    Overall activity: 7.0%


    Country: Belgium - Flanders



    Quote Originally Posted by I1a3_Young View Post
    https://yfull.com/tree/I1/

    There are currently 31 Yfull kits tested that are I1 but aren't under DF29. They still have the same 304 mutations of I1 though.

    I'm not sure when M-253 developed. Was it early in the I1 chain of mutations or late? If it were late then there could be many I* that are actually just pre-M253 I1 but still would be considered I1.
    The TMRCA for DF29 is the same as for I1.
    The TMRCA for both together is a very big starlike expansion that happened 4.6 ka.

  11. #61
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered5000 Experience Points
    I1a3_Young's Avatar
    Join Date
    03-05-17
    Location
    Arkansas
    Posts
    516
    Points
    7,688
    Level
    26
    Points: 7,688, Level: 26
    Level completed: 23%, Points required for next Level: 462
    Overall activity: 2.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I1 Z63*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H5b1

    Ethnic group
    Basically British
    Country: USA - Arkansas



    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    The TMRCA for DF29 is the same as for I1.
    The TMRCA for both together is a very big starlike expansion that happened 4.6 ka.
    Right. One guy or a group of brothers were a rare strain for the time (I1) around 4.6 kya. Perhaps only a few generations went by and one of their descendants became DF29. DF29 is the real "explosion" for I1, as the non-DF29 are still rare, which indicates there was little time between the DF29 explosion and the I1 survivor. Perhaps the non-DF29 are the key to finding the location of the TMRCA I1.

    I've been looking at some more old samples such as I* and I haven't found anything profound. They aren't testing very many SNPs, which I admit would be difficult as only so many positions can be extracted from ancient DNA.

    I don't think I1 is going to be associated with PIE, as BAB5 was LBK in a pre-PIE Hungary living alongside (and autosomally similar to) G2A/I2A EEF.

  12. #62
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    08-12-16
    Posts
    272
    Points
    3,673
    Level
    17
    Points: 3,673, Level: 17
    Level completed: 56%, Points required for next Level: 177
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I-FGC24357
    MtDNA haplogroup
    K2a6

    Ethnic group
    Hainaut Belgium and Quebec Canada
    Country: USA - California



    Perhaps I1 was limited down to one village or family of brothers. One of the brothers with DF29 rose to an extreme position of power and went on a reproduction rampage similar to Ghengis Khan. Over the next couple of generations his descendants and his brothers descendants fought against each other for control of the empire and DF29 won out with non DF29 greatly reduced or massacred. This is a purely speculative hypothesis with zero evidence lol.

  13. #63
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    24-02-15
    Posts
    243
    Points
    2,727
    Level
    14
    Points: 2,727, Level: 14
    Level completed: 93%, Points required for next Level: 23
    Overall activity: 11.0%


    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by I1a3_Young View Post
    I1 and I2 branched about 27,500 years ago.

    From 27,500 ybp to 4600 ybp, the population containing I1 males was isolated or "bottle necked." This is known because all I1 have about 300 of the same mutation which is radically different than the other ydna hgs that I've read about.
    That's incorrect, I1 male share about 2300 mutations compared to I2 males. Keep in mind yfull only lists the mutations for less than 20% of the Y chromosome.

    Quote Originally Posted by I1a3_Young View Post
    How is this possible in Europe, considering 27.5k ybp was an ice age, then a warming, then the LGM (presumed forced migration). Everything I've seen about Europe's population and cultures have shown spreading, mixing, and replacing with a certain predictability. None of the other haplogroups had this isolation.
    Several Y haplogroups come close.

    Quote Originally Posted by I1a3_Young View Post
    What part of Europe could these I1 have been in during the ice ages and in between? What caused them to come out of isolation 4600 ybp? Did they maintain a territory through strength but refuse to invade others until overwhelmed by R1b expansion?
    North Africa might be an option, with I1 moving north into Europe after the ice age. Scandinavian skulls somewhat resemble North African skulls suggesting I1 is not cold adapted, while I2 appears to be.

    Quote Originally Posted by I1a3_Young View Post
    How could the I1 mesolithics survive the incursion of neolithic farmers and maintain yDNA continuity? Was the neolithic farmer mixing after 4600 ybp?
    They believe I* lost territory to the farmers until they adopted farming themselves, then they regained territory.

    Quote Originally Posted by I1a3_Young View Post
    Perhaps there were many I1 groups and only one small group survived, and all of that one small group would have the 300 mutations. But if that were true then it would mean the others were 100% wiped out. I find that as unlikely as one group surviving unmixed for the long period of time. It's absolutely mind boggling that any yDNA hg could maintain isolation in a highly contested Europe for about 23,000 years.
    Why do North Europeans have blue eyes? Did the blue-eyed people wipe out the brown-eyed people? Scientists believe that blue eyes have some kind of evolutionary advantage.

    So besides genocide, a just as plausible explanation is that R1b and I1 contain beneficial mutations, causing them to spread faster. These explanations are not mutually exclusive.

  14. #64
    Elite member Achievements:
    Tagger Second ClassThree FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points
    Fire Haired14's Avatar
    Join Date
    20-04-14
    Posts
    2,194
    Points
    28,146
    Level
    51
    Points: 28,146, Level: 51
    Level completed: 55%, Points required for next Level: 504
    Overall activity: 31.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b DF27*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5b2a2b1

    Country: USA - Illinois



    Quote Originally Posted by Expredel View Post
    So besides genocide, a just as plausible explanation is that R1b and I1 contain beneficial mutations, causing them to spread faster. These explanations are not mutually exclusive.
    That may be true for I1 but not R1b. R1b M269 arose in a population in Russia rich in R1b. R1b actually may have been the most popular haplogroup in Mesolithic Europe. Then founder effect after founder effect gave rise to all the major modern R1b subclades. Ancient DNA documents that R1b became popular in Western Europe due to migration not natural selection.

  15. #65
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    08-12-16
    Posts
    272
    Points
    3,673
    Level
    17
    Points: 3,673, Level: 17
    Level completed: 56%, Points required for next Level: 177
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I-FGC24357
    MtDNA haplogroup
    K2a6

    Ethnic group
    Hainaut Belgium and Quebec Canada
    Country: USA - California



    There must have been some isolated selective breeding pressures on some remote Scandinavian islands similar to Polynesia.
    Last edited by mwauthy; 21-06-17 at 04:05. Reason: Error

  16. #66
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered5000 Experience Points
    I1a3_Young's Avatar
    Join Date
    03-05-17
    Location
    Arkansas
    Posts
    516
    Points
    7,688
    Level
    26
    Points: 7,688, Level: 26
    Level completed: 23%, Points required for next Level: 462
    Overall activity: 2.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I1 Z63*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H5b1

    Ethnic group
    Basically British
    Country: USA - Arkansas



    Quote Originally Posted by Expredel View Post
    That's incorrect, I1 male share about 2300 mutations compared to I2 males. Keep in mind yfull only lists the mutations for less than 20% of the Y chromosome.
    I1 vs I2 is going to be a lot more than just I1. I'm only talking about the I1 specific mutations, that is the ones between I and DF29.


    Several Y haplogroups come close.
    Such as? Keep in mind I'm not talking about total mutations of a person, meaning from A to R1b1a2a1aca3xyz....but only I1. I don't see another location on the hg tree with that many exclusive mutations in "one" place.


    North Africa might be an option, with I1 moving north into Europe after the ice age. Scandinavian skulls somewhat resemble North African skulls suggesting I1 is not cold adapted, while I2 appears to be.
    Skull measurements? Scandinavians are not the origination of I1 anyways. L22 is the Scandi branch that came to dominate, but is a branch off a continental origination (based on current facts). Skull measurements are a ridiculous way to talk about genetics in modern times. Do Germanic people and Scandinavians have different heads? Did the Scandis completely bypass all of Europe and sail directly to Denmark? Autosomal genetics tell us no.


    They believe I* lost territory to the farmers until they adopted farming themselves, then they regained territory.
    Who is "they" and what information are they using to offer this theory? Are I1 and I2 put back in the same group now?


    Why do North Europeans have blue eyes? Did the blue-eyed people wipe out the brown-eyed people? Scientists believe that blue eyes have some kind of evolutionary advantage.

    So besides genocide, a just as plausible explanation is that R1b and I1 contain beneficial mutations, causing them to spread faster. These explanations are not mutually exclusive.
    My theory, which is probably common, is that blue eyes are pretty and were choice-selected rather than randomly selected due to genetic advantage.

    As for beneficial mutations, any of that is probably associated with the other chromosomes. Autosomally, we have I1 transforming from EEF to Germanic/Nordic, a completely different autosomal makeup (according to known samples, which are severely lacking). This would be similar to the R1b takeover of the Basques though, so there is precedent. Whoever got the DF29 mutation is the one who had some sort of genetic procreation superiority, not the previous I1.

  17. #67
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    24-02-15
    Posts
    243
    Points
    2,727
    Level
    14
    Points: 2,727, Level: 14
    Level completed: 93%, Points required for next Level: 23
    Overall activity: 11.0%


    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by I1a3_Young View Post
    I1 vs I2 is going to be a lot more than just I1. I'm only talking about the I1 specific mutations, that is the ones between I and DF29.
    I'm talking about the I1 specific mutations as well. yfull lists 301 mutations unique to I1, but that is not for the entire Y chromosome, only about 13% of it. You presented it as if those 301 are all the mutations, which isn't the case.

    Quote Originally Posted by I1a3_Young View Post
    Such as? Keep in mind I'm not talking about total mutations of a person, meaning from A to R1b1a2a1aca3xyz....but only I1. I don't see another location on the hg tree with that many exclusive mutations in "one" place.
    According to yfull G has 300 mutations spanning 48500 ybp till 26500 ybp. There's also a branch of K with 418 mutations, it appears to be pretty rare.

    Quote Originally Posted by I1a3_Young View Post
    Skull measurements? Scandinavians are not the origination of I1 anyways. L22 is the Scandi branch that came to dominate, but is a branch off a continental origination (based on current facts). Skull measurements are a ridiculous way to talk about genetics in modern times. Do Germanic people and Scandinavians have different heads? Did the Scandis completely bypass all of Europe and sail directly to Denmark? Autosomal genetics tell us no.
    Sweden has the highest concentration of I1 in Europe, and the population also has the most dolichocephalic skulls in Europe. Before nationalism Europe was populated by clans which did not necessarily interbreed.

    Quote Originally Posted by I1a3_Young View Post
    Who is "they" and what information are they using to offer this theory? Are I1 and I2 put back in the same group now?
    "they" would be some scientists I don't remember the name of who proposed the theory in some science article. I think it's a prevailing theory though. I think I1 and I2 are believed to have co-existed in Europe as hunter-gatherers before the arrival of farmers.

    Quote Originally Posted by I1a3_Young View Post
    My theory, which is probably common, is that blue eyes are pretty and were choice-selected rather than randomly selected due to genetic advantage.
    That wasn't the point. Lets take lactose tolerance for example, did the milk drinkers commit genocide on those who didn't drink milk?

    Quote Originally Posted by I1a3_Young View Post
    As for beneficial mutations, any of that is probably associated with the other chromosomes. Autosomally, we have I1 transforming from EEF to Germanic/Nordic, a completely different autosomal makeup (according to known samples, which are severely lacking). This would be similar to the R1b takeover of the Basques though, so there is precedent. Whoever got the DF29 mutation is the one who had some sort of genetic procreation superiority, not the previous I1.
    If that was the case, wouldn't we see similar behavior in mtdna haplogroups?

  18. #68
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered5000 Experience Points
    I1a3_Young's Avatar
    Join Date
    03-05-17
    Location
    Arkansas
    Posts
    516
    Points
    7,688
    Level
    26
    Points: 7,688, Level: 26
    Level completed: 23%, Points required for next Level: 462
    Overall activity: 2.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I1 Z63*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H5b1

    Ethnic group
    Basically British
    Country: USA - Arkansas



    Quote Originally Posted by Expredel View Post
    I'm talking about the I1 specific mutations as well. yfull lists 301 mutations unique to I1, but that is not for the entire Y chromosome, only about 13% of it. You presented it as if those 301 are all the mutations, which isn't the case.
    I'm going with the known mutations publicly available. Do you have a list for the rest? That would make me very happy.


    Sweden has the highest concentration of I1 in Europe, and the population also has the most dolichocephalic skulls in Europe. Before nationalism Europe was populated by clans which did not necessarily interbreed.
    Swedes have square heads and have the highest concentration of I1. But that I1 is only one branch, and the other main branches did not originate from the Scandinavian branch. The Basques have among the highest R1b in Europe but it has been proven that it's not their original Y-DNA group, but one of Celtic/IE expansion. Look at any PCA chart of Europeans. The Swedes are not some special and magical branch. They cluster right by the Danes and Germans, the same as any other geographical neighbor in Europe. They did get BIG and they did become fearsome Vikings having mostly I1 Yhgs. After looking at the tree again and the estimated formation dates, check this out:

    I1 (final mutation 4600 ybp) -> DF29 (4600 ybp)
    West German -Z58 (4600 ybp) ->Z59 (4600 ybp)
    German/East German -Z63 (4600 ybp)
    Scandinavia -Z2236 (4600 ybp) -> L22 (4100 ybp)

    There was rapid geographic expansion of major I1 branches. Being as Z63 is rarely found in Sweden and L22 is mostly confined to the north, we know that either one did not originate in the homeland of the other (at least in a significant population).

    It seems to me that "Mr. DF29" may have been a powerful king and he had 3 sons (or brothers/grandsons) to rule three zones who were all prolific. Similar to Alexander's generals or Charlemagne's sons, or perhaps just three related tribes that had to spread out and were led by sons. The map on this site for Funnel Beaker culture looks like the zone we are interested in. The date range for it ends at 2650 B.C. That almost perfectly coincides with the formation of D29 and the "big 3" subclades. This is about the time of the Battle Axe culture and the Corded Ware as well. Somehow the "big 3" took advantage of these changes and came out on top.

    The Scandinavian branch of I1 persisted and proliferated more but that may be due to R1A and R1B incursions on the mainland. For example, the Franks slaughtered a lot of Saxons. If the Saxons had held their ground would we see similar proportions of I1 in Germany as we do in Sweden?


    "they" would be some scientists I don't remember the name of who proposed the theory in some science article. I think it's a prevailing theory though. I think I1 and I2 are believed to have co-existed in Europe as hunter-gatherers before the arrival of farmers.
    It seems that the theory makes sense but that I1 was first found in an EEF population in Hungary. This leaves a lot of questions on the table. We don't have another good I1 sample for a very long time, and I'm looking them up as time allows.


    That wasn't the point. Lets take lactose tolerance for example, did the milk drinkers commit genocide on those who didn't drink milk?
    Lactase Persistance is a huge survival advantage. HUGE. This is completely different than eye pigmentation which as far as I know, doesn't grant any special abilities other than attracting mates based on beauty.


    If that was the case, wouldn't we see similar behavior in mtdna haplogroups?
    No, we see European populations get completely turned over on the Y-DNA side but retain mtDNA, such as the Basques.

  19. #69
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    24-02-15
    Posts
    243
    Points
    2,727
    Level
    14
    Points: 2,727, Level: 14
    Level completed: 93%, Points required for next Level: 23
    Overall activity: 11.0%


    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by I1a3_Young View Post
    I'm going with the known mutations publicly available. Do you have a list for the rest? That would make me very happy.
    I don't think this information is available, and I have not been able to get a satisfying answer as to why, so we have to guess at the total number of mutations. You might be able to download a fully sequenced genome somewhere, but that would be around 6 GB of data, and it's my understanding that with "a fully sequenced genome" they mean fully except for the Y chromosome.

    Quote Originally Posted by I1a3_Young View Post
    Swedes have square heads and have the highest concentration of I1. But that I1 is only one branch, and the other main branches did not originate from the Scandinavian branch. The Basques have among the highest R1b in Europe but it has been proven that it's not their original Y-DNA group, but one of Celtic/IE expansion. Look at any PCA chart of Europeans. The Swedes are not some special and magical branch. They cluster right by the Danes and Germans, the same as any other geographical neighbor in Europe. They did get BIG and they did become fearsome Vikings having mostly I1 Yhgs. After looking at the tree again and the estimated formation dates, check this out:

    I1 (final mutation 4600 ybp) -> DF29 (4600 ybp)
    West German -Z58 (4600 ybp) ->Z59 (4600 ybp)
    German/East German -Z63 (4600 ybp)
    Scandinavia -Z2236 (4600 ybp) -> L22 (4100 ybp)

    There was rapid geographic expansion of major I1 branches. Being as Z63 is rarely found in Sweden and L22 is mostly confined to the north, we know that either one did not originate in the homeland of the other (at least in a significant population).
    I don't think PCA diagrams accurately predict genetic similarity. Genetic traits are not smoothly distributed among Europeans. Take height for example, NW Europeans and Yugoslavians are the taller populations in Europe, it's undoubtedly genetic, and it's not evenly distributed among Europe. This either means it's Y-linked or that PCA diagrams measure very weak foreign genetic admixtures. Like swedes having 1% German admixture and 0.1% Italian admixture, so it's closer to Germany on a PCA map, but on the practical level Swedes would be as distinct from Germans as Italians. I'm no expert on PCA, but they never clarify the data.

    Quote Originally Posted by I1a3_Young View Post
    It seems to me that "Mr. DF29" may have been a powerful king and he had 3 sons (or brothers/grandsons) to rule three zones who were all prolific. Similar to Alexander's generals or Charlemagne's sons, or perhaps just three related tribes that had to spread out and were led by sons. The map on this site for Funnel Beaker culture looks like the zone we are interested in. The date range for it ends at 2650 B.C. That almost perfectly coincides with the formation of D29 and the "big 3" subclades. This is about the time of the Battle Axe culture and the Corded Ware as well. Somehow the "big 3" took advantage of these changes and came out on top.
    We'll probably never know. My best guess is that a young beautiful woman was one week pregnant when all the men in the village were slaughtered, an Indo-European king made her one of his concubines, and 9 months later he believed himself to have fathered a son. This son may then have taken 30 concubines of his own, one for every day of the month.

    Quote Originally Posted by I1a3_Young View Post
    The Scandinavian branch of I1 persisted and proliferated more but that may be due to R1A and R1B incursions on the mainland. For example, the Franks slaughtered a lot of Saxons. If the Saxons had held their ground would we see similar proportions of I1 in Germany as we do in Sweden?
    The Franks undoubtedly raped and pillaged their way through Germania, so it's a solid theory.

    Quote Originally Posted by I1a3_Young View Post
    It seems that the theory makes sense but that I1 was first found in an EEF population in Hungary. This leaves a lot of questions on the table. We don't have another good I1 sample for a very long time, and I'm looking them up as time allows.
    There's a gap of about 20,000 years.

    Quote Originally Posted by I1a3_Young View Post
    Lactase Persistance is a huge survival advantage. HUGE. This is completely different than eye pigmentation which as far as I know, doesn't grant any special abilities other than attracting mates based on beauty.
    It's curious that you have no problem with the importance of Lactase persistance which is 1 mutation, yet you find it hard to believe that I1 and R1b, each containing upwards of 3000 unique mutations, have no relevance on natural selection.

    Quote Originally Posted by I1a3_Young View Post
    No, we see European populations get completely turned over on the Y-DNA side but retain mtDNA, such as the Basques.
    Western Europe is dominated by 2 Y haplogroups that are 5000 years old. I'm quite sure that the Basque have over a dozen mtDNA haplogroups that are much older than that.

  20. #70
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    23-06-17
    Location
    Zealand
    Posts
    1
    Points
    87
    Level
    1
    Points: 87, Level: 1
    Level completed: 37%, Points required for next Level: 63
    Overall activity: 4.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I1
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3n

    Ethnic group
    Danish/Swedish/German
    Country: Denmark



    Quote Originally Posted by I1a3_Young View Post
    So this mystery I1 survivor and progenitor....shall we call him I1 Abraham or I1 Ghengis Khan?
    Or I1-Odin rather. ;)

  21. #71
    Banned Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    09-09-14
    Posts
    232
    Points
    3,293
    Level
    16
    Points: 3,293, Level: 16
    Level completed: 61%, Points required for next Level: 157
    Overall activity: 2.0%


    Country: Finland



    Quote Originally Posted by Argent View Post
    Or I1-Odin rather. ;)
    Btw, something unique was found 2015 in the middle of ancient Tavastia, an staff head depicting Odin used by an Völva was found from a well known ritual site on lake Pyhäjärvi (literally holy lake) that is part of the Vanaja basin of lakes and rivers comprising the core of the Tavastian settlements inland.

    A vǫlva or völva (Old Norse and Icelandic, respectively; plural forms vǫlur and völvur), sometimes anglicized vala; also spákona or spækona) is a female shaman and seer in Norse religion and a recurring motif in Norse mythology.
    The vǫlur were referred to by many names. Old Norse vǫlva means "wand carrier" or "carrier of a magic staff",[1] and it continues Proto-Germanic *walwōn, which is derived from a word for "wand" (Old Norse vǫlr).


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Völva

    Nothing like this has been found anywhere before.

  22. #72
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered5000 Experience Points
    I1a3_Young's Avatar
    Join Date
    03-05-17
    Location
    Arkansas
    Posts
    516
    Points
    7,688
    Level
    26
    Points: 7,688, Level: 26
    Level completed: 23%, Points required for next Level: 462
    Overall activity: 2.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I1 Z63*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H5b1

    Ethnic group
    Basically British
    Country: USA - Arkansas



    I saw a post here referencing something on another website that won't be named. It does check out according to other sources though, so I will post it.

    Stora Förvar 11 - Gotland - 5500 BC was pre-I1

    Here are the positive I1 calls. The calls leading up to I1 are all solid A, CT, F, IJ, I
    I1-Z2805/CTS6629
    I1-Z2802/CTS6221
    I1-Z2792/CTS5887
    I1-YSC0000301/Z2882
    I1-Z2726
    I1-Z2749/CTS1748
    I1-Z2731

    The original study didn't list the haplogroups but it was analyzed and verified by hobbyists like us and appears to be accurate. Maybe the lack of inclusion in the paper was the reason it's not mentioned on the official write-up on Eupedia?

    Seems like pretty big news. This is about contemporary with BAB5 in Hungary and the beginning of farming in Scandinavia. The autosomal mix appears different as well.

    I also came across (Angmollan - Sweden - 1400 BC) which is the first modern M253 that I've seen. That's quite a gap.

    I'm now leaning on the presence of pre-I1 in hunter-gatherers who were mostly I2 but more rarely pre-I1. Most lines failed to survive but some were able to capitalize on the Neolithic expansion and Mr. DF29 was the really big genetic winner. This is not shocking but it was more about my personal way of rolling through the data and the theories. When there are so few samples, one additional sample can be absolutely huge!

  23. #73
    Banned Achievements:
    Tagger Second Class1000 Experience Points1 year registered
    Parafarne's Avatar
    Join Date
    05-04-17
    Age
    34
    Posts
    96
    Points
    1,550
    Level
    10
    Points: 1,550, Level: 10
    Level completed: 40%, Points required for next Level: 300
    Overall activity: 4.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R
    MtDNA haplogroup
    Eurasian

    Ethnic group
    Caucasian
    Country: Afghanistan



    In my view we should not give mythical theories about R1b and IE invading western europe and rampaging, much importance, because its NOT TRUE.Even in the time of roman republic germanics were not able to fight others because they had no armies! so why we even talk about an IE army invading neolithic west europeans? In reality they were tribes trying to get more lands so the bigger R1b tribes at that time overwhelmed the natives and became the dominant ruling elite, so thats how they conquered w.europe - by overwhelming the natives - not by killing them and fighting them!

  24. #74
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    70
    Posts
    4,304
    Points
    34,349
    Level
    57
    Points: 34,349, Level: 57
    Level completed: 9%, Points required for next Level: 1,101
    Overall activity: 40.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    Quote Originally Posted by Parafarne View Post
    In my view we should not give mythical theories about R1b and IE invading western europe and rampaging, much importance, because its NOT TRUE.Even in the time of roman republic germanics were not able to fight others because they had no armies! so why we even talk about an IE army invading neolithic west europeans? In reality they were tribes trying to get more lands so the bigger R1b tribes at that time overwhelmed the natives and became the dominant ruling elite, so thats how they conquered w.europe - by overwhelming the natives - not by killing them and fighting them!
    very pacifist dream! In fact we can believe the reality has been a mix of colonization linked to strong demography but with some serious fighting; what contained elites tombs doesn't incline me to think they were pacific societies. Maybe in some place some decline in the preceding pops can have eased things. Concerning Germanics, they seemingly liked fight and even if (possibly, not proved) lacking regular army, they had more than only tea spoons by them.

  25. #75
    Banned Achievements:
    Tagger Second Class1000 Experience Points1 year registered
    Parafarne's Avatar
    Join Date
    05-04-17
    Age
    34
    Posts
    96
    Points
    1,550
    Level
    10
    Points: 1,550, Level: 10
    Level completed: 40%, Points required for next Level: 300
    Overall activity: 4.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R
    MtDNA haplogroup
    Eurasian

    Ethnic group
    Caucasian
    Country: Afghanistan



    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    very pacifist dream! In fact we can believe the reality has been a mix of colonization linked to strong demography but with some serious fighting; what contained elites tombs doesn't incline me to think they were pacific societies. Maybe in some place some decline in the preceding pops can have eased things. Concerning Germanics, they seemingly liked fight and even if (possibly, not proved) lacking regular army, they had more than only tea spoons by them.
    I agree in that Proto-IE's were very advanced technologicaly, they had superior metallurgy, horse chariots, only lacking organized army but since regional I1 haplogroup seem to explode in numbers and came to be associated early on as Germanic haplogroup so i think they must have accepted germanic overlordship and joined there tribal group without any largescale warfare , we see I2a largly outnumbered I1 pre-bronze age yet after 2500 bc I1 surpassed I2 as dominant west European branch of haplogroup I.So i believe there were some smallscale regional wars but not largscale warfare since europe were very sparsly populated in bronze age so there weren't any need for war.

Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •