J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

Futu-ti pizda ma-tii,iti imprastii creierii pe toti peretii.


I'll **** your mother's pussy and I'll blow your brains on all the walls.


@Aspurg
 
Sile said:
Check Byzantine records as the people called triballi are the Serbs, 100% thracian area same as Moesia superior and Moesia lesser
.
illyrian belongs to:
Until the middle of the second millennium BC, the Proto-Italo-Celto-Illyro-Thraco-Dacian was a single language. After that some phonological change appeared in different dialects of this proto-language. Namely in the dialect from the middle of this group from which evolved the Continental Celtic and the Oscan and Umbrian, the labiovelar (kʷ, gʷ) turned into bi-labials (p, b). The innovations affects all these languages (one should remember that the forefathers of Oscans and Umbrians migrated from the upper Danube valley into the Italian peninsula)
Click to expand...

LOL. What are you, some bot who simultaneously keeps posting the same nonsense in two different forums :LOL:
 
Identify yourself, now.


What are you,a Serbian,Bulgarian, Bosnian,Albanian?


Because of your cheap provocations, I have some issues with the authorities from Bucharest,I think you all know what this means...
 
Dreptul Valah said:
Identify yourself, now.
Click to expand...

Men? Kumanım, sen?


Dreptul Valah said:
Identify yourself, now.




What are you,a Serbian,Bulgarian, Bosnian,Albanian?
Click to expand...

Sure, have some links with all of that, Albanian most distant but one in 19 Albanians is my distant cousin in Iron age. My clan is from Montenegro we came there in a raid many centuries ago with Bulgarian-Cuman army. So you say your lowly family bred sheeps, my clan were known for breeding horses, many horses, we always had lots of horses, as it turns out not only 200 years ago, 400 years ago but also 600, 800, 1000,... so you're born to handle sheeps but I'm born to handle horses because I'm a Cuman bori and you're a good obedient sheep, aren't you? :) Of course you are.(y) Otherwise I think I need a fresh supply of skulls for my Bolgar drinking cups..

And who the f*** are you, when I look at your Romanian surnames, there is almost not a family that knows ancestry past 100-150 years, while in Montenegro all clans know their ancestry, my clan 400-500 or even more years old, every man with our very clan name has our genetics, and most clans in Montenegro come out as they claim to be.

Trust me you dont come close to me when it comes to insults, I'm just very talented in that respect but this is a civilized internet space so I can behave, go play your internet warrior games with some of your fellow beta males..
 
Last edited:
Aspurg said:
There are several Serb families from Lika, Croatia and Western Bosnia PH1602 who have St. Luke as patron saint and also related to them one from Herceg Novi, Montenegro, one of these is 16/67 with YF07839 Croat from Western Herzegovina so definitely some diversity there. Considering archaeological evidence it seems Delmatae had very likely PH1602.
Click to expand...

Where are you getting this information on these Serb families? I know that there is one from Glamoc but I haven't seen the rest.

As for YFO7839 their migration to their present location occurred in the mid-18th century from today's Siroki Brijeg, and specifically Mostarsko Blato.

BTW what does 16/67 mean in terms of relatedness? How many generations?
 
Guido Anselmi said:
Where are you getting this information on these Serb families? I know that there is one from Glamoc but I haven't seen the rest.

As for YFO7839 their migration to their present location occurred in the mid-18th century from today's Siroki Brijeg, and specifically Mostarsko Blato.

BTW what does 16/67 mean in terms of relatedness? How many generations?
Click to expand...

That family from Citluk is surely related to families from Novi Grad and Gradiska further north. Also likely more distantly related is one from Herceg Novi. Citluk family is from ftdna, the rest are from the Belgrade lab.

16/67 is a bit, 1500-2000 years they might be the same clade as you but L283 haplotypes often seem much closer on STR's then they really are so they might be easily a parallel branch with you.

I bet you are Delmatae descendant. I think I might be Ardiaei from maternal side.
 
Interestingly in the Basarab study there are 9 individuals (out of 29) with Basarab surnames tested as M241+. Unfortunately there is no dys385 (for non-Basarab hyplotypes these values were added in Roma study later) however it is possible to find out their dys385 value. As it is Basarab haplotype has 2 non-modal values dys388=16 and dys389a=13. They share both of these values with Romanians ht96 from Piatra Neamt and Buhusi (Moldavian study) and 169 from Ploiesti (Aromanian study) and these both have dys385=13-17, so that must be the value for Basarab individuals, so there seems to be another Z631 clade in Romania.
Related to these should/must be Greek from Peloponnese kit 50395. Not sure where would this clade fit under Z631. I've noticed also one Romanian dys385a=10. It seems Z631 are majority of L283's in Romania, and there is some diversity (dys388=14, dys388=16, dys385a=10, plus one "modal"). If Z631's are older there they might have expanded with this Glasinac-Mati movement and might have been picked up there by the Celts whos presence was stronger there than in the South. When one looks at basal J-CTS11760 clades they look Celtic (2 Spanish, 1 Italian, 1 German).

Btw there is another Greek kit N14037, who shares with many Aromanians from Dukasi, Albania (48 %) dys388=17 and dys19=14, dys389b=17, he is a good Big-Y candidate for what looks to be another distant clade of PH2967.
 
Those 9 samples are actually also matching nicely our Thaçi-Korbi Z631 cluster, 388=16 and 389=13-29. Their values on 385 are 14-16, however.
 
Leka said:
Those 9 samples are actually also matching nicely our Thaçi-Korbi Z631 cluster, 388=16 and 389=13-29. Their values on 385 are 14-16, however.
Click to expand...

That's very interesting, well we do know that for all Z631 modal is dys385a=13 or less, so it's likely Thaçi-Korbi mutated back to 14. They are not yet tested for anything under Z631?
I would say these Basarabi are very likely related to them because dys388=16+dys389=13-29 is extremely rare, other than this Greek I don't think any other ftdna haplotype has such combo. The question is how distant are they to each other. There is one Albanian dys385=13-17, dys389=13-29 at YHRD from a sample of 100 Albanians. I'll "canibalize" more STR's for these Basarab from studies, as few Romanians are tested at ftdna. And then we can compare them together with this Greek.
 
Aspurg said:
That's very interesting, well we do know that for all Z631 modal is dys385a=13 or less, so it's likely Thaçi-Korbi mutated back to 14. They are not yet tested for anything under Z631?
I would say these Basarabi are very likely related to them because dys388=16+dys389=13-29 is extremely rare, other than this Greek I don't think any other ftdna haplotype has such combo. The question is how distant are they to each other. There is one Albanian dys385=13-17, dys389=13-29 at YHRD from a sample of 100 Albanians. I'll "canibalize" more STR's for these Basarab from studies, as few Romanians are tested at ftdna. And then we can compare them together with this Greek.
Click to expand...

I think this Basarabi haplotype is a (recent) migrant from further south. As you noticed, they all share DYS388=16, DYS389I, II=13, 29, and are close to each other which suggests a founder effect. This is precisely the same haplotype that a Greek through BigY recently tested Z631+ and negative for downstreams as I described on the top post. The J-Z631>Thaçi Korbi Cluster, with 385=14-16, is around 8/111 to this Greek, so they certainly seem to be related within around 1000 years. This Greek might have a closer Albanian match. For example, here is a Tosk haplotype from Boattini et al 2015: 12 24 16 10 13 17 12 13 11 29 16 16 19 11 13 9 23

The Greek has only one difference out of 17 markers, and that is DYS19=15 vs 16. The above haplotype is missing the key 388=16 to be certain of their relationship though. Anyways, this Z631 haplotype with 388=16 and 389I, II=13, 29 to me seems some shared "Albano-Vlach cluster". Worth mentioning is that we recently got a J-Z631 looking haplotype from Mat, Albania. He is around 13/67 from the above haplotype but doesn't have the above characteristic values. Though J-L283 haplotypes, and especially J-Z1296, are usually much farther apart than they appear, as you have noticed. But considering J-Z631 is very diverse in Albania (much more than I initially thought), and 388=16, 389I, II=13, 29 appearing in Albania, this haplotype most definitely has its roots in western Balkans I would say.
 
Aspurg said:
Btw there is another Greek kit N14037, who shares with many Aromanians from Dukasi, Albania (48 %) dys388=17 and dys19=14, dys389b=17, he is a good Big-Y candidate for what looks to be another distant clade of PH2967.
Click to expand...

Indeed! I have actually tried to get a hold of this Greek (kit N14037) through FTDNA projects for the purpose of deeper testing, but I've had no luck.
He is certainly related to the Aromanian Cluster from Dukasi, Fier, Albania. Interestingly enough, out of 14 Aromanian samples from Albania, we have no J-L283 in the Albanian project as of yet.

As I posted on the Albanian forum, I found out that there is a big Aromanian clan/tribe in Dukasi, Fier. I think it's quite likely they are responsible for the very high percentage (48%) of J-L283 in Dukasi Aromanians, and all related with characteristic values at 19=14, 388=17, 389II=29.
DYS19=14 does suggest some PH2967, though hard to say for sure as this value has appeared elsewhere within L283. We'll be looking to get a sample from this tribe and hopefully it turns out this haplotype so we can test it deeper.

BTW, YFull did create the new split on the J-PH2967 subclade defined by the sample from Mat, Albania, as you noticed. However, they haven't updated the TMRCA as of yet. That TMRCA should be no less than 3000 ybp, and more likely around 3400 ybp. I expect YFull to eventually update it..
 
Trojet said:
I think this Basarabi haplotype is a (recent) migrant from further south. As you noticed, they all share DYS388=16, DYS389I, II=13, 29, and are close to each other which suggests a founder effect. This is precisely the same haplotype that a Greek through BigY recently tested Z631+ and negative for downstreams as I described on the top post. The J-Z631>Thaçi Korbi Cluster, with 385=14-16, is around 8/111 to this Greek, so they certainly seem to be related within around 1000 years. This Greek might have a closer Albanian match. For example, here is a Tosk haplotype from Boattini et al 2015: 12 24 16 10 13 17 12 13 11 29 16 16 19 11 13 9 23

The Greek has only one difference out of 17 markers, and that is DYS19=15 vs 16. The above haplotype is missing the key 388=16 to be certain of their relationship though. Anyways, this Z631 haplotype with 388=16 and 389I, II=13, 29 to me seems some shared "Albano-Vlach cluster". Worth mentioning is that we recently got a J-Z631 looking haplotype from Mat, Albania. He is around 13/67 from the above haplotype but doesn't have the above characteristic values. Though J-L283 haplotypes, and especially J-Z1296, are usually much farther apart than they appear, as you have noticed. But considering J-Z631 is very diverse in Albania (much more than I initially thought), and 388=16, 389I, II=13, 29 appearing in Albania, this haplotype most definitely has its roots in western Balkans I would say.
Click to expand...

Ah, I see this is the new Z631* you were mentioning. It was clear immediately these people are some closely related cluster, just I wasn't sure from where it came from. Now I'm sure, obviously Z631 Basarabi migrated with other Vlachs in 12th/13th century north of Danube to Cumania.:) Same goes for members of at least one Basarabi E-V13 cluster who posses identical haplotype and key matches with a Greek from Thrace who in turn is connected in Medieval times to a "Greek" (that is Vlach) north of Trikkala, they are Z5017>BY4684 (Z19851-) and they have a more distant relative in Bulgaria, so this clade is not ancient Greek. And when I was speaking of Z5017 diversity in Bulgaria you can add this clade too.:)

You have these two Z631 389=13-29 as well.
12 24 15 10 13-17 12 13 11 29 16 16 19 10 13 9 23 Athens, Greece [Greek] 1/148
12 24 15 10 13-17 12 13 11 29 16 16 19 10 13 9 23 Albania [Albanian] 1/100

Albanian haplotype is from Robino et al. 2002 study of 100 Albanians living in Italy (initially it had minimal STR's but he added these YFiler haplotypes in 2008). These are fully matching Basarabi/Greek (except dys635=22 for Basarab though one has 23)
 
An important ancient DNA find for haplogroup J2b-L283. From the study The genetic prehistory of the Greater Caucasus, the BAM file (raw data) just came out.

I checked the BAM file for sample: KDC001.A0101 Kudachurt ~3823 YBP MBA North Caucasus X2i J2b

He is J-L283+ and Z627- YP91-. Furthermore, he is positive for 9 other J-L283 equivalents with the remaining no calls and no negatives. So he can simply be classified as J-L283*

This is the oldest J-L283 in an ancient DNA context yet, and being J-L283*, it further strengthens the hypothesis that it expanded to the Balkans/Europe from the direction it's found in and during the Bronze Age.
 
I said it from the start,several years ago,after I have red David Anthony's wrong conclusions,the only way that both the steppe IE scenario and satemization can really work for the Paleo-Balkanics is being part of the Catacomb culture.



Catacomb(south):paleo-Balkanics



Fatyanovo(N):Balts



Dnepr c.(NW):p-Slavs


Poltavska(E):Indo-Iranians



https://m.wikidata.org/wiki/Q1511519#/media/File:Fatyanovo-culture.jpg
 
Last edited:
Anthony's map:


https://indo-european.eu/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/steppe-lmba-sintashta-potapovka-filatovka.jpg



It also explains some anthropologic traits that Western Indo-Europeans(Germans,Romans,Celts) share,perhaps with the Indo-Iranians too,heavy Cromagnized and Uralic-Mongoloid ,as a result of the early Yamnaya expansion/contacts with different peoples.



While the ancient Greeks and Paleo-Balkanics were more of a local development, preserving the Europoid/Caucasian traits,with the later having also,significant Dinaric features.



Trebenista mask,Thracian or Illyrian:



http://www.panacomp.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/Maska1600x1200.jpg



http://www.panacomp.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/maski.jpg
 
Last edited:
The Greek-Armenian-Phrygian branch was probably part of this culture,either they left earlier and escaped satemization or had mixed with the Centum populations from the Lower
Danube.



It explains the relations between this branch and the Indo-Iranians,they share some linguistic traits.



The original, typical, Yamnaya Indo-Europeans were not only steppe horse riders,but also sailors from the northern coast of the Black Sea,they resemble the most in this respect the Catacomb communities who had constantly invaded the Anatolian shore ,southern lands in general,searching for metals,for these people sacking Troy was a very old tradition, much older than Homer says.



The other early IE peoples with this kind of activities are the Bell Beakers.



Catacomb IEans just followed the tradition from that area,involving in the so-called Circumpontic territory(see the Circumpontic Metallurgical Province),from where they borrowed elements such as the funerary masks(pg.25),etc.



https://books.google.ro/books?id=QG...v=onepage&q=greeks catacomb sea route&f=false
 
Trojet said:
An important ancient DNA find for haplogroup J2b-L283. From the study The genetic prehistory of the Greater Caucasus, the BAM file (raw data) just came out.

I checked the BAM file for sample: KDC001.A0101 Kudachurt ~3823 YBP MBA North Caucasus X2i J2b

He is J-L283+ and Z627- YP91-. Furthermore, he is positive for 9 other J-L283 equivalents with the remaining no calls and no negatives. So he can simply be classified as J-L283*

This is the oldest J-L283 in an ancient DNA context yet, and being J-L283*, it further strengthens the hypothesis that it expanded to the Balkans/Europe from the direction it's found in and during the Bronze Age.
Click to expand...
I was hoping J-L283 was medditeranean. Its looking caucus :(
 
An interesting result for J-L283>>Z1295>Z631. After the YFull analysis, YF17037 who is from Abruzzo, Italy, defines a split in J-Z8421 immediately above J-Z631. This would be consistent with the hypothesis that the origin and expansion of J-Z631 lies somewhere in the Adriatic region, likely the Western Balkans: https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z8421/
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

This thread has been viewed 495573 times.

Back
Top