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Thread: J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

  1. #251
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ernekar View Post
    Nope, the ones above are J-YP157 and J-YP29. Both of them are found mostly/only in Sardinia.
    Yea thats the point. Those are negative z585...
    They dont have z585 like 99.999999999 percent of the J-L283 that have z585 all over europe. The ancient samples are in georgia . Like rise408 for example

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    Yea thats the point. Those are negative z585...
    They dont have z585 like 99.999999999 percent of the J-L283 that have z585 all over europe. The ancient samples are in georgia . Like rise408 for example
    Nope again, ancient sample rise408 branched off from the Balkans branch. Just like armenian supposedly came from the balkans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ernekar View Post
    Nope again, ancient sample rise408 branched off from the Balkans branch. Just like armenian supposedly came from the balkans.
    Nope, if they did they would be -z585 Jz600 in the balkans. There is no Jz600 with -z585 there. Rise408 was extracted in georgia.

    There is only supposebly one french and belgium guy. But its literally one one person (doesn't have geneology) and is not related to me neither in y matching. While I have another match, my exact match with 2 generations distance, estimation is in the 14th century. his surname is portuguese. But I trace my lineage farther than he does. By 100 years. And with this new geneology potential match by 200 estimation or 180 years

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2b2-L283
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    Quote Originally Posted by Piro Ilir View Post
    Pripet marshes, was the best candidate for early Slavs
    This.

    And Albanians are direct descendants of the Illyrians. J2b2-L283, R1b-L23, E-V13 all found in the Ancient Western Balkan samples.

    You should test yourself and see what haplo you got.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Polska View Post
    The L283 sample(s) found in Sardinia were from the Nuragic era which saw the arrival of the Bonannaro culture in Sardinia. The Bonannaro culture was from northern Italy/Central Europe. So the L283 in Sardinia likely came from continental Europe.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ernekar View Post
    @wanderer
    Forget these lunatic theories about ancient greeks or phoenecians.
    J2b-L283 expanded in the bronze age 3000-2000 BC, so loooong before greeks or phoenecians existed.
    On top of that, the nuragic samples showed steppe ancestry, just like every single J2b-L283 we have found in ancient DNA so far.
    We have even found L283 north of the caucasus in ancient DNA.
    So it has basically been known beyond any doubt for a couple of years now that this lineage spread with indo-european expansions in SE Europe. Specifically Italic and Albanian branch.

    I know you would like to claim phoenecian ancestry, but I am afraid to tell you that you won't find it by looking at your Y-haplogroup.
    If you are that obsessed, play with some autosomal calculators until you get some phoenecian ancestry in there ffs.
    And stop spamming this thread with your damn nonsense theories kids
    Pretty much agree with the points made in the above posts.

    He is the same guy who just a few months ago was claiming that J-L283 expanded from Sardinia. Now, he claims it arrived there 1000 BC and later with Phoenicians, Carthagenians, etc. Yet, we already have J-L283 from BA Sardinia (~1200 BC). He is the J-Z600* sample on YFull. It looks like now he is dreaming of some Phoenician ancestors and thinks will find it in J-L283. He doesn't seem to understand that in order for the Phoenicians and Carthagenians to spread it, they would have to have it in the first place. There is practically zero J-L283 in North Africa and the Levant. The only known J-L283 Levantine cluster is represented by YF08654. He is downstream of J-L283>Z597+, the same branch as BA Croatia which was found ~3600 ybp in Croatia, well before Phoenicians were even mentioned. Furthermore, the Levantine sample splits from an Albanian sample ca. 3000 ybp, and forms a founder effect which dates only ~2000 ybp.
    Y-DNA: J-L283
    Maternal Y-DNA: E-V13

  6. #256
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    Pretty much agree with the points made in the above posts.

    He is the same guy who just a few months ago was claiming that J-L283 expanded from Sardinia. Now, he claims it arrived there in 800 BC or later with Phoenicians, Carthagenians, etc. Yet, we already have J-L283 from BA Sardinia (~1200 BC). He is the J-Z600* sample on YFull. It looks like now he is dreaming of some Phoenician ancestors and thinks will find it in J-L283. He doesn't seem to understand that in order for the Phoenicians and Carthagenians to spread it, they would have to have it in the first place. There is practically zero J-L283 in North Africa and the Levant. The only known J-L283 Levantine cluster is represented by YF08654. He is downstream of J-L283>Z597+, the same branch as BA Croatia which was found ~3600 ybp in Croatia, well before Phoenicians were even mentioned. Furthermore, the Levantine sample splits from an Albanian sample ca. 3000 ybp, and forms a founder effect which dates only ~2000 ybp.
    1200 bc is very close to 1000 bc.
    North african samples can be under represented. North africans/ caucaus/ middle eastern peoples arent testing dna themselves nearly as much as Europeans. also the carthagenians were exterminated as I have said before. This is including after the romans conquered carthage. As cato the elder used to say, carthage should be destroyed. When talking politics with carthage.

    The modern levantine sample +z585 could have very easily been from a mercenary or migrant from the balkans. As its J -L283 with Z585. What this means is that its possible a Lebanon -z585 sample is still not discovered yet if there is a Istanbul -z585 sample discovered.

    Also I have to ask where does it say those JL283 like JYp29 are 1200bc? Its still a close estimate to 1000bc

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    1200 bc is very close to 1000 bc.
    North african samples can be under represented. North africans/ caucaus/ middle eastern peoples arent testing dna themselves nearly as much as Europeans. also the carthagenians were exterminated as I have said before. This is including after the romans conquered carthage. As cato the elder used to say, carthage should be destroyed. When talking politics with carthage.

    The modern levantine sample +z585 could have very easily been from a mercenary or migrant from the balkans. As its J -L283 with Z585. What this means is that its possible a Lebanon -z585 sample is still not discovered yet if there is a Istanbul z585 sample discovered.

    Also I have to ask where does it say those JL283 like JYp29 are 1200bc? Its still a close estimate to 1000bc
    We have J2b-L283* in north caucasus bronze age. So most likely this haplogroup as a whole spread through the black sea towards the balkans at that time. Either a northern route through the steppe, or a southern route through Anatolia. Steppe ancestry in all ancient J2b-L283 so far seems to make the northern steppe route most plausible.

    Instead of talking about what samples we "could have had" in a imaginary world, lets focus on the samples that actually do have, that is; all of them in IE-speaking areas and all of them with steppe ancestry. None in the levant, none in africa. Easy as that.

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    Look at Y full
    J-YP29 is given TMRCA 2400 years Before present. Thats 400 BC

    Their total range is 3800-1350ybp
    So their total range is 1780 bc - 670 Ad

    Thats a range of 2450 years
    Half of 2450 is 1225

    Also 1780 - 1225 = 555 which is 555bc
    1780 ×.20 = 356
    555bc +/ - 356 years

    J-yp157 is not given estimate nor j-yp71 nor mine or the Istanbul sample

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ernekar View Post
    We have J2b-L283* in north caucasus bronze age. So most likely this haplogroup as a whole spread through the black sea towards the balkans at that time. Either a northern route through the steppe, or a southern route through Anatolia. Steppe ancestry in all ancient J2b-L283 so far seems to make the northern steppe route most plausible.

    Instead of talking about what samples we "could have had" in a imaginary world, lets focus on the samples that actually do have, that is; all of them in IE-speaking areas and all of them with steppe ancestry. None in the levant, none in africa. Easy as that.
    The black sea route is highly plausible for +z585. NOT -z585.
    -Z585 had to go to sardinia which is not a black sea route. Its a medditerenean sea route, for J-YP29 sailed from anatolia or lebanon.

    Supported by J-yp29 being TMRCA of 400 BC

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    The black sea route is highly plausible for +z585. NOT -z585.
    -Z585 had to go to sardinia which is not a black sea route. Its a medditerenean sea route, for J-YP29 sailed from anatolia or lebanon.

    Supported by J-yp29 being TMRCA of 400 BC
    There is nothing support that it should have come from Lebanon.
    Most probable routes for how YP29 reached Sardinia is:
    1. Caucasus->Pontic steppe->Balkans->Mainland Italy->Sardinia
    2. Caucasus->Anatolia->Mediterranean by boat->Sardinia
    3. Caucasus->Anatolia->Balkans->Mainland Italy->Sardinia
    4. Caucasus->Black sea by boat->Balkans->Mainland Italy->Sardinia
    5. Caucasus->Black sea by boat->Passing Bosphorus by boat->Mediterranean by boat->Sardinia
    6. Caucasus->Pontic steppe->Balkans->Mediterranean by boat->Sardinia

    Neither ancient DNA nor modern distribution of subclades point towards the levant as having any relevance at all for this haplogroup.

    The TMRCA of YP29 being 2400 years doesn't mean much in regards to when it came to sardinia, because we have dozens of L283 subclades in sardinia with TMRCA's of 4-5000 years. So unless Sardinia was some kind of magnet for all kinds of J-L283 subclades in prehistory, I don't see how the TMCR of YP29 is relevant for mapping out the initial migration routes of L283 as a whole.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ernekar View Post
    There is nothing support that it should have come from Lebanon.
    Most probable routes for how YP29 reached Sardinia is:
    1. Caucasus->Pontic steppe->Balkans->Mainland Italy->Sardinia
    2. Caucasus->Anatolia->Mediterranean by boat->Sardinia
    3. Caucasus->Anatolia->Balkans->Mainland Italy->Sardinia
    4. Caucasus->Black sea by boat->Balkans->Mainland Italy->Sardinia
    5. Caucasus->Black sea by boat->Passing Bosphorus by boat->Mediterranean by boat->Sardinia
    6. Caucasus->Pontic steppe->Balkans->Mediterranean by boat->Sardinia

    Neither ancient DNA nor modern distribution of subclades point towards the levant as having any relevance at all for this haplogroup.

    The TMRCA of YP29 being 2400 years doesn't mean much in regards to when it came to sardinia, because we have dozens of L283 subclades in sardinia with TMRCA's of 4-5000 years. So unless Sardinia was some kind of magnet for all kinds of J-L283 subclades in prehistory, I don't see how the TMCR of YP29 is relevant for mapping out the initial migration routes of L283 as a whole.
    Forget about this guy and his imagination.

    We might soon have an Albanian sample in the J-YP29 subclade ;)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Piro Ilir View Post
    Pripet marshes, was the best candidate for early Slavs

    Despite what T-rolls say, J2-L283/E-V13/R1b-L23 were all found in bronze age balkan samples. These dominate amongst Albanians. The naysayers will try tirelessly to disprove this, but it only makes their narrative more disjointed and nonsensical. For instance, that Carlos dude on his blog basically says E-V13 especially, with J2b and R1b in Albanians was spread from around Moravia with the Slavs. They will try tirelessly to prove Albanians are not native in their lands, because they're afraid of what the future might bring when its proven with more and more data.

    About Pripyat, Around, not in. Archaeological digs have found no evidence of habitation within pripyat as far as I know, only around it. They likely descend from around the zone of the Neuri and controlled/passed through pripyat. Z280 however has been found from north-east europe to the black sea from bronze to iron age. So they likely weren't restricted to that specific zone. I think its more likely I2a1b was around the pripyat and that once Z280 from Milograd and M458 from Lusatians converged around the pripyat, the Proto-Slavs were formed. Many connect Neuri to them, which corresponds to the Proto-Slavic Urheimat. We need ancient I2a1b/M458 around where they found Z280 in the urheimat to confirm that obviously. Heres where Proto-Slavic falls, covering from pripyat south down the dneister near the prut. The oldest Proto-Slavic place-names are the red dots. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...Slavic_lng.png

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    Look at Y full
    J-YP29 is given TMRCA 2400 years Before present. Thats 400 BC
    Their total range is 3800-1350ybp
    So their total range is 1780 bc - 670 Ad
    Thats a range of 2450 years
    Half of 2450 is 1225
    Also 1780 - 1225 = 555 which is 555bc
    1780 ×.20 = 356
    555bc +/ - 356 years
    J-yp157 is not given estimate nor j-yp71 nor mine or the Istanbul sample
    The TMRCA of J-YP29 is not very precise because the Sardinian samples are low coverage. I would guess it's at least 3000 ybp. The same situation with J-Z600>YP157. However, we know that J-YP157 formed ~5400 ybp (TMRCA of J-Z600), and the fact that Sardinians under J-YP157 share only 4 SNPs, indicates that their TMRCA is around the middle bronze age. So this suggests that even the J-Z600 (Z585-) lineages were not far from Sardinia during the middle bronze age (perhaps the region around the Adriatic). In any case, absolutely no evidence they were in the Levant! While you and the Istanbul sample have "no TMRCA" because you currently have no closer relatives than the J-Z600 mutation.

    I'm sorry, but among other things, you seem to have issues interpreting the YFull tree.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    Forget about this guy and his imagination.
    You are right. If a person chooses not to understand, there is not much I can do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    We might soon have an Albanian sample in the J-YP29 subclade ;)
    Interesting. It would also make great sense.
    Can't wait to see more albanians on Yfull :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    The TMRCA of J-YP29 is not very precise because the Sardinian samples are low coverage. I would guess it's at least 3000 ybp. The same situation with J-Z600>YP157. However, we know that J-YP157 formed ~5400 ybp (TMRCA of J-Z600), and the fact that Sardinians under J-YP157 share only 4 SNPs, indicates that their TMRCA is around the middle bronze age. So this suggests that even the J-Z600 (Z585-) lineages were not far from Sardinia during the middle bronze age (perhaps the region around the Adriatic). In any case, absolutely no evidence they were in the Levant! While you and the Istanbul sample have "no TMRCA" because you currently have no closer relatives than the J-Z600 mutation.

    I'm sorry, but among other things, you seem to have issues interpreting the YFull tree.
    Me and the istanbul sample dont need a TMRCA at 1000 years. Its very possible the the split was in western asia 5400 ybp between me and his sample but his still stayed in western asia. Like how you argue its european even though the split for Z585 was 5400 years ago... and none were in europe yet.

    so z585 was still in western asia / caucaus 5400 ybp because there is no evidence of z585 in the balkans 5400ybp , not in mainland europe at 5400 ybp. So z585 came into europe later at around 1600 bc. Thats because we have ancient sample of that. Theres no evidence they came priot to that croatian sample! And that clade was already a very deep subclade of Z585 / 615!But none prior to that sample in the balkans!



    Z558 migrated to europe at that time

    For JYP29 3000ybp is still 1000BC. Which is still close to when the Carthagenians landed in sardinia XD

    Also JYP29 is not Jz600. Its a mutation after it. He has mutations after Jyp29 also.
    You dont find jyp29 in mainland europe...

    Also it says J-L283 formed 9600 YBP


    It wasnt in europe when J-L283 formed.
    It was in west asia or the caucus.

    Some how you want to argue -585 is european at 5400bc because Z585 /615 migrated at 1600 bc instead of 5400bc ???

    Makes no sense. It only shows these lineages split. Which is the point, because you do not find -z585 with positive Z585 in the balkans or mainland europe. And if you find z585 they arent J-Z615 which is 98.9999999999 percent of european J-z615.
    And the sardinian samples are nowhere on mainland. Nor is any z858 until 1600bc. Nevermind showing


    All the mainland european samples are 615. Which they split 4700ybp (2700BC) according to Y full if you wanted to even compare the sardinian z585 samples.

    So from 5400 ybp to 4700ybp they were still in the caucus and west asia.


    So if its not even z585 why would you argue its mainland european -z585 came in with z615? Theres no evidence for that.

    5400 ybp (3400 BC) some basal -z585 split from each other. They obviously were still in georgia. Theres no evidence of them being in europe at 3400 bc.

    Z585 (-615) happens they remain in west asia. We know this because these lineages dont exist in the balkans or on main land europe.

    615 lineages, exist everywhere in europe. They break apart 4700ybp. So 615 lineages migrated to europe afterwords at 1600bc, not -615.

    The non 615 were still in west asia and caucus.

    Mines migrated from west asia because my most distant ancestor lineage is looking to be from sidonia.

    We also have armenian predicted J-L283. So what does that mean? What happens if they are shown deep subclades of Z615?

    The ancient Croatian sample was already a deep clade of 615. So its no way related 615 samples and definitely not -z585. That supports that subclades of z615 migrated into europe at 1600bc. Not -615 lineages.

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    Doesn’t the Istanbul sample claim to be with origin from the Balkans?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leka View Post
    Doesn’t the Istanbul sample claim to be with origin from the Balkans?
    No. He doesnt know. Also he has a greek surname. But that doesnt mean his origins is from greece. It just means the ethnic identity was. Greeks hellenized people from west asia and other places. Also carians the first peoples in the greek islands are from west asia in caria, modern day turkey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    Me and the istanbul sample dont need a TMRCA at 1000 years. Its very possible the the split was in western asia 5400 ybp between me and his sample but his still stayed in western asia. Like how you argue its european even though the split for Z585 was 5400 years ago... and none were in europe yet.
    so z585 was still in western asia / caucaus 5400 ybp because there is no evidence of z585 in the balkans 5400ybp , not in mainland europe at 5400 ybp. So z585 came into europe later at around 1600 bc. Thats because we have ancient sample of that. Theres no evidence they came priot to that croatian sample! And that clade was already a very deep subclade of Z585 / 615!But none prior to that sample in the balkans!
    Z558 migrated to europe at that time
    For JYP29 3000ybp is still 1000BC. Which is when the Carthagenians landed in sardinia XD
    Also JYP29 is not Jz600. Its a mutation after it
    Also it says J-L283 formed 9600 YBP
    It wasnt in europe when J-L283 formed.
    It was in west asia or the caucus.
    Some how you want to argue -585 is european at 5400bc because Z585 migrated at 1600 bc instead of 5400bc ???
    Makes no sense. It only shows these lineages split. Which is the point, because you do not find -z585 with positive Z585 in the balkans or mainland europe. And if you find z585 they arent J-Z615 which is 98.9999999999 percent of european J-z615.
    And the sardinian samples are nowhere on mainland. Nor is any z858 until 1600bc. Nevermind showing
    All the mainland european samples are 615. Which they split 4700ybp (2700BC) according to Y full if you wanted to even compare the sardinian z585 samples.
    So from 5400 ybp to 4700ybp they were still in the caucus and west asia.
    So if its not even z585 why would you argue its mainland european -z585 came in with z615? Theres no evidence for that.
    5400 ybp (3400 BC) some basal -z585 split from each other. They obviously were still in georgia. Theres no evidence of them being in europe at 3400 bc.
    Z585 (-615) happens they remain in west asia. We know this because these lineages dont exist in the balkans or on main land europe.
    615 lineages, exist everywhere in europe. They break apart 4700ybp. So 615 lineages migrated to europe at this time, not -615.
    The non 615 were still in west asia and caucus.
    Mines migrated from west asia because my most distant ancestor lineage is looking to be from sidonia.
    We also have armenian predicted J-L283. So what does that mean? What happens if they are shown deep subclades of Z615?
    The ancient Croatian sample was already a deep clade of 615. So its no way related -615 samples and definitely not -z585.
    I was trying to help you interpret the YFull tree. Instead, it appears you're going back to writing long walls containing imaginary things.

    Do you even see a single North African anywhere within L283, which would support your theory that the Carthagenians carried it into Sardnia? Besides the Istanbul sample, who literally has a Greek sounding surname, do you see a single West Asian anywhere between L283 and Z615? BTW, in case you didn't know, Istanbul is a border region between Balkans and Anatolia. We don't know where L283>Z600 expanded from 5400 ybp, but there is absolutely no evidence it did from the Levant. Ancient origin of J-L283 is most definitely in the Caucasus region, however. For your own lineage, as you rightly said, your closest match is someone with origin from Portugal and not west Asia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    I was trying to help you interpret the YFull tree. Instead, it appears you're going back to writing long walls containing imaginary things.

    Do you even see a single North African anywhere within L283, which would support your theory that the Carthagenians carried it into Sardnia? Besides the Istanbul sample, who literally has a Greek sounding surname, do you see a single West Asian anywhere between L283 and Z615? BTW, in case you didn't know, Istanbul is a border region between Balkans and Anatolia. We don't know where L283>Z600 expanded from 5400 ybp, but there is absolutely no evidence it did from the Levant. Ancient origin of J-L283 is most definitely in the Caucasus region, however. For your own lineage, as you rightly said, your closest match is someone with origin from Portugal and not west Asia.

    Wanderer is looks like some kid who enjoys in trillion of various fantasies or things that come up to his mind prior to sleeping time in bed. I would suggest not taking him too seriously or lose nerves over him. At least he is trying to understand, got to give him some credit for that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    Wanderer is looks like some kid who enjoys in trillion of various fantasies or things that come up to his mind prior to sleeping time in bed. I would suggest not taking him too seriously or lose nerves over him. At least he is trying to understand, got to give him some credit for that.
    The fact is. The croation sample is a deep clade of 615.
    615 splits from -615 at 4700 ybp
    2700bc
    Theres no evidence of JL283 in europe until 1600 BC for ancient samples.
    So for about thousand years we have 615 lineages growing and mutating in west asia and georgia which is why they come into europe at 1600 bc as a deep clade of 615. Not -615. And not too mention its only 1 sample from a group sample. It doesnt even mean it was a large settlement of J -L283. Meaning there was no population. This is just a single case that could have been an explorer or mercenary traveling around. As the others tested weren't J-L283

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    Yes, of course, the Croatian J-L283 kid from 3600 ybp was just some isolated Wanderer who came from the Levant or West Asia right at the time he was found. You have it all figured out

    Keep it up with the imagination. Have a nice day!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    I was trying to help you interpret the YFull tree. Instead, it appears you're going back to writing long walls containing imaginary things.

    Do you even see a single North African anywhere within L283, which would support your theory that the Carthagenians carried it into Sardnia? Besides the Istanbul sample, who literally has a Greek sounding surname, do you see a single West Asian anywhere between L283 and Z615? BTW, in case you didn't know, Istanbul is a border region between Balkans and Anatolia. We don't know where L283>Z600 expanded from 5400 ybp, but there is absolutely no evidence it did from the Levant. Ancient origin of J-L283 is most definitely in the Caucasus region, however. For your own lineage, as you rightly said, your closest match is someone with origin from Portugal and not west Asia.
    Original Carthagenians come from west asia but used mercernaries also. They arent native north africans.original carthagenians are from west asia.
    Also carthagenians were wiped out after they lost to rome. They were genocided.

    Theres not a single mainland -615 lineage. So i dont understand the arguements. The only 1 who actually has done geneology finds that his most possible candidate has origins from sidonia which is the oldest european settlement and was founded by the phonecians.
    Its not because i want to be carthagenian ect. Its because thats what geneology has led me to. A place founded by carthage. His lineage extends to a person who was born around the early 1600s and is from sidonia (medina sidonia).. only about 100-120 years after spains reconquista. Also the surname is from that area actually comes from andalusian meaning rock. It has different origins than someone from like catalonia with the same name.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    The fact is. The croation sample is a deep clade of 615.
    615 splits from -615 at 4700 ybp
    2700bc
    Theres no evidence of JL283 in europe until 1600 BC for ancient samples.
    So for about thousand years we have 615 lineages growing and mutating in west asia and georgia which is why they come into europe at 1600 bc as a deep clade of 615. Not -615. And not too mention its only 1 sample from a group sample. It doesnt even mean it was a large settlement of J -L283. Meaning there was no population. This is just a single case that could have been an explorer or mercenary traveling around. As the others tested weren't J-L283
    How could he be a mercenary or explorer, when he was 7 years old at the time of his death?

    Also his archaeological site was nothing out of the usual for his area.
    1. Material culture corressponds with other sites.
    2. He had fractures on his arms from defence wounds, and healed fractures on his skull from earlier in his life, indicating that these were people who had martial training from a very young age. Probably when they were as young as 4-5 years old. Practically everyone in the area, including this site, have defence wounds and healed skull fractures, probably done by blunt weapons like clubs.
    This does not indicate that these men were the typical seafaring merchant to me, but rather warriors who died where they lived, namely the bronze age western balkans
    3. He was buried in a kurgan.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ernekar View Post
    How could he be a mercenary or explorer, when he was 7 years old at the time of his death?
    Also his archaeological site was nothing out of the usual for his area.
    1. Material culture corressponds with other sites.
    2. He had fractures on his arms from defence wounds, and healed fractures on his skull from earlier in his life, indicating that these were people who had martial training from a very young age. Probably when they were as young as 4-5 years old. Practically everyone in the area, including this site, have defence wounds and healed skull fractures, probably done by blunt weapons like clubs.
    This does not indicate that these men were the typical seafaring merchant to me, but rather warriors who died where they lived, namely the bronze age western balkans
    7 years old with bone fractures. So it means he was beat and abused and got killed at 7. It doesnt mean he was a warrior at 7.

    this actually tells me he was probably kidnapped and sold into slavery probably
    Considering that the others tested around him were not J-l283
    Its possible the used slaves in training or to even train as warriors. But no free person would have their kid die at 7 and suffer fractures constantly at ages 5 and 6.
    "Healed skull fractures"
    At 7. Lets say this happened at 5 years old. And was common. Yikes.

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    @wanderer
    Everyone in the area have the same fractures.
    Why would they burry a slave in a kurgan warrior grave?

    Anyways, im done here. I see that you are either just a troII out to provoke, our just simply uncapable of understanding extremely simple argumentation.
    Have a nice day

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