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Thread: J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ernekar View Post
    @wanderer
    Everyone in the area have the same fractures.
    Why would they burry a slave in a kurgan warrior grave?

    Anyways, im done here. I see that you are either just a troII out to provoke, our just simply uncapable of understanding extremely simple argumentation.
    Have a nice day
    Im not a T roll. You didnt tell me he was buried in kurgan warrior burial. You told me he had skull fractures that healed in and died at 7. I would think the kid was beaten and abused. Child abuse was likely common in those days. And slavery also.

    Also others around him are not J -l283. So they dont have the same paternal origins.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Also where is the source saying he was buried in a kurgan warrior grave?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    Original Carthagenians come from west asia but used mercernaries also. They arent native north africans.original carthagenians are from west asia.
    Also carthagenians were wiped out after they lost to rome. They were genocided.

    Theres not a single mainland -615 lineage. So i dont understand the arguements. The only 1 who actually has done geneology finds that his most possible candidate has origins from sidonia which is the oldest european settlement and was founded by the phonecians.
    Its not because i want to be carthagenian ect. Its because thats what geneology has led me to. A place where carthage was founded. His lineage extends to a person who was born around the early 1600s and is from sidonia.. only 100 years after spains reconquista.


    No, you are wrong. Carthage was Sidon-Byblos-Tyre expansion and colony. They were Semitic speakers from territories of modern day Lebanon. Also there are two Sidonian ancient DNA tested, one is J2-M205 and another J1-P58. J2-L283 spread with Indo-Europeans and is strongly associated with both Illyrians and Albanians (Indo-European language group).


    You dont need rocket scientists to realise that L-283 spread with IE only when looking on Yfull - https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-L283/
    Look, its formed 9600 years ago, so prior to Phoenicians, and its TMRCA is 5400 years mostly among IE speakers, i dont see how Phoenicians could fit here.



    Please dont reply with rows of senseless text, but rather try to understand. Also look at IE language tree: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-E...ropeanTree.svg

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    No, you are wrong. Carthage was Sidon-Byblos-Tyre expansion and colony. They were Semitic speakers from territories of modern day Lebanon. Also there are two Sidonian ancient DNA tested, one is J2-M205 and another J1-P58. J2-L283 spread with Indo-Europeans and is strongly associated with both Illyrians and Albanians (Indo-European language group).


    You dont need rocket scientists to realise that L-283 spread with IE only when looking on Yfull - https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-L283/
    Look, its formed 9600 years ago, so prior to Phoenicians, and its TMRCA is 5400 years mostly among IE speakers, i dont see how Phoenicians could fit here.



    Please dont reply with rows of senseless text, but rather try to understand. Also look at IE language tree: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-E...ropeanTree.svg
    Only the 615 lineages not the -615 lineages.
    West asian samples of J-L283

    https://j2-m172.info/2015/10/j2b2a1-...wish-lineages/

    Morroco sample also




    Also sidonia was founded by carghagenians.


    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medina-Sidonia

    This city was most likely ancient Asido, an Iberian settlement which may have been founded by the Phoenicians, hence the later name Sidonia reflecting its foundation by Sidon. Its earliest phase is known through its coinage and its 2nd and 1st centuries BC issues bear the Latin inscription Asido but also Punic inscriptions such as 'sdn or b'b'l, with Herakles and Dolphins being notable obverse and reverse designs. The Barrington Atlas of the Greek and Roman World equates this site with modern Medina Sidonia-lying within the ancient Roman province of Turdetania some 30 km (19 mi) inland from the southern Spanish coast, this site lay upon a hill c. 35 km (22 mi) to the east of Gades (modern Cadiz), and 15 km (9 mi) to the west of the Besilus river.[2]

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidon


    Sidon has been inhabited since very early in prehistory. The archaeological site of Sidon II shows a lithic assemblage dating to the Acheulean, whilst finds at Sidon III include a Heavy Neolithic assemblage suggested to date just prior to the invention of pottery.[2] It was one of the most important Phoeniciancities, and it may have been the oldest. From there and other ports a great Mediterranean commercial empire was founded. Homerpraised the skill of its craftsmen in producing glass, purple dyes, and its women's skill at the art of embroidery. It was also from here that a colonizing party went to found the city of Tyre. Tyre also grew into a great city, and in subsequent years there was competition between the two, each claiming to be the metropolis ('Mother City') of Phoenicia. Glass manufacturing, Sidon's most important enterprise in the Phoenician era, was conducted on a vast scale, and the production of purple dye was almost as important. The small shell of the Murex trunculus was broken in order to extract the pigment that was so rare it became the mark of royalty.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    Im not a T roll. You didnt tell me he was buried in kurgan warrior burial. You told me he had skull fractures that healed in and died at 7. I would think the kid was beaten and abused. Child abuse was likely common in those days. And slavery also.
    Also others around him are not J -l283. So they dont have the same paternal origins.
    And what Y-DNA had these 'other' samples around him from the same time period? That's right, he was the only one with a Y-DNA haplogroup. Stop spamming this thread with made up stuff!



    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    Only the 615 lineages not the -615 lineages.
    West asian samples of J-L283
    https://j2-m172.info/2015/10/j2b2a1-...wish-lineages/
    Morroco sample also
    Also sidonia was founded by carghagenians.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medina-Sidonia
    This city was most likely ancient Asido, an Iberian settlement which may have been founded by the Phoenicians, hence the later name Sidonia reflecting its foundation by Sidon. Its earliest phase is known through its coinage and its 2nd and 1st centuries BC issues bear the Latin inscription Asido but also Punic inscriptions such as 'sdn or b'b'l, with Herakles and Dolphins being notable obverse and reverse designs. The Barrington Atlas of the Greek and Roman World equates this site with modern Medina Sidonia-lying within the ancient Roman province of Turdetania some 30 km (19 mi) inland from the southern Spanish coast, this site lay upon a hill c. 35 km (22 mi) to the east of Gades (modern Cadiz), and 15 km (9 mi) to the west of the Besilus river.[2]
    Congrats, you finally found a single north African J-L283 out of ~700 samples

    Check again, all those Lebanese are under J-Y146400>FGC64029, with a TMRCA (founder) of only ~2000 ybp: https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-FGC64029/

    Last edited by Trojet; 25-05-19 at 23:54.
    Y-DNA: J-L283
    Maternal Y-DNA: E-V13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    Only the 615 lineages not the -615 lineages.
    West asian samples of J-L283

    https://j2-m172.info/2015/10/j2b2a1-...wish-lineages/

    Morroco sample also




    Do you read what you post? Btw that research is outdated there was major and advance research on Indo-Europeans recently.

    of L283 groups. Of those samples all with MDKO (most distant known ancestor) not in the New World all are from Europe except the listed kits :

    So you found some Levantine samples of L283 and you think that immediately testifies to their Levantine origin?
    Do you understand that all of their brother clades are primarily dominated with over 95 % of Europeans going at least 9000 years back?

    Finding one sample in Lebanon and one in Morocco for sure does not prove Phoenician theory of L283 lol. These are most likely European descendants. They are minor brother clades to sea of Europeans with most likely neglectable TMRCA, they are most likely expansion since Roman time or perhaps Alexander the Great or something like that.

    Tomorrow you can find Chinese samples, will you then claim Chinese origin?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    And what Y-DNA had these 'other' samples around him from the same time period? That's right, he was the only one with a Y-DNA haplogroup. Stop spamming this thread with made up stuff!




    You finally found a single north African J-L283 out of ~700 samples

    Check again, all those Lebanese are under J-Y146400>FGC64029, with a TMRCA (founder) of only ~2000 ybp:

    Most recent common ancestor was 2000 ybp Thats close to when the phonecians had their downfall.

    Notice the lebanese samples are with the iberian decended latin american samples.

    What this shows is that lebanese split from from the albanian sample at 0 ad /bc
    The albanian sample split from z590 1000bc but was formed 4400 ybp
    At 4400 ybp or 2400 bc there was no JL283 in europe. There is no evidence for that.
    So they had to be in west asia or caucaus.

    It doesnt decend from z2507 like the other europeans. Its an even smaller branch that diverged

    Meaning that this pocket of -2507 diverged from the lebanese samples

    The brit sample and the belgium are very different lineages from the lebanese J-L283. Because they are not positive for Y146400. They diverged much earlier.

    One went to europe (-Y146400)
    One stayed in west asia (Y146400)
    The albanian diverges at 1000 BC which is close the foundation of Carthage. But phonecia.
    And the lebanese samples stay there.

    One escapes to the balkans from lebanon at 1000bc. Which is why it doesnt have FGC64029 like the lebanese / iberians do.



    Also phonecia existed since 2500BC
    Thats 4500ybp
    And phonecians used to attack the balkans and the medditerenean

    As you can see this is evidence that early clades of z590 where around lebanon while another branch went into europe.

    But the -615 were not in europe.

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    So there Trojet answered my TMRCA question, so to make it more clear, it is one isolated small branch in Lebanon with tons of European brother clades going back to TMRCA of 5400 years ago.

    They have no real connection to Semitic speakers neither to Lebanese people further then 2000 years back, which is Roman time. All of their further relatives are Europeans like from Germany, England, Sweden, Albania and so on....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    So there Trojet answered my TMRCA question, so to make it more clear, it is one isolated small branch in Lebanon with tons of European brother clades going back to TMRCA of 5400 years.

    They have no real connection to Semitic speakers neither to Lebanese people further then 2000 years back, which is Roman time. All of their further relatives are Europeans like from Germany, England, Sweden, Albania and so on....
    Theres no evidence of the lebanese samples splitting at 3400bc. Theres no european J-l283 shown to even exists at that time.

    European Jz2507 shows up when phonecia is founded. It shows up at 4400 ybp which 2400 bc.
    Phonecia is founded 2500bc.
    Which means that it left lebanon pretty early on when it just had the Jz2507 mutation which is why all europeans come from Jz2507. The ones that are not Jz2507 are case by case. As there is no proof of -615 in mainland europe. Hell that belgium sample could have migrated from georgia 600 years ago. some place in the caucaus or west asia

    If he has no geneology going back even 300 years theres no reason to assume its really european. Its not clustered with other european clades.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    What this shows is that lebanese split from from the albanian sample at 0 ad /bc
    The albanian sample split from z590 1000bc but was formed 4400 ybp
    Are you now just straight up lying, or are you still having trouble interpreting the YFull tree?
    Look, they split from the Albanian sample 1000 BC (3000 ypb), and not 0 AD: https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z597/

    Before you mention Phoenicians again, the aDNA sample from MBA Croatia was also Z597+, and was found there before Phoenicians were even mentioned.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    Are you now just straight up lying, or are you still having trouble interpreting the YFull tree?
    Look, they split from the Albanian sample 1000 BC (3000 ypb), and not 0 AD: https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z597/

    Before you mention Phoenicians again, the Croatian from 3600 ybp was also Z597+
    Look again


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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    The fact is. The croation sample is a deep clade of 615.
    615 splits from -615 at 4700 ybp
    2700bc
    Theres no evidence of JL283 in europe until 1600 BC for ancient samples.
    So for about thousand years we have 615 lineages growing and mutating in west asia and georgia which is why they come into europe at 1600 bc as a deep clade of 615. Not -615. And not too mention its only 1 sample from a group sample. It doesnt even mean it was a large settlement of J -L283. Meaning there was no population. This is just a single case that could have been an explorer or mercenary traveling around. As the others tested weren't J-L283
    You dont understand anything dont you?

    Do you understand that Lebanese samples you posted all fall into FGC64029 SNP, that is formed 3000 years ago and it has TMRCA 1950 years. https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-FGC64029/

    Their brother clade is found in Albania https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y146400/ TMRCA 3000 ybp.

    And furthermore all of their brother clades are found with over 95 % at Europeans from Russia to Spain and England. Also multiple clades in Albania.

    Since except themselves, TMRCA 1950 years, their closest mach is from Albania - Vlora, TMRCA 3000 years, its safe to assume they are of Illyrian origin, most likely thru Alexander the Great or Illyrian soldiers in Roman army.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    You dont understand anything dont you?

    Do you understand that Lebanese samples you posted all fall into FGC64029 SNP, that is formed 3000 years ago and it has TMRCA 1950 years. https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-FGC64029/

    Their brother clade is found in Albania https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y146400/ TMRCA 3000 ybp.

    And furthermore all of their brother clades are found with over 95 % at Europeans from Russia to Spain and England. Also multiple clades in Albania.

    Since except themselves, TMRCA 1950 years, their closest mach is from Albania - Vlora, TMRCA 3000 years, its safe to assume they are of Illyrian descent, most likely thru Alexander the Great or Illyrian soldiers in Roman army.
    Yes and? They are not J-Z2507.
    so whats your point.

    Albanian diverged 1000 bc fro. Z590. But that doesnt mean it originates in albania. Incase you cant tell. It means an early offshoot diverged into albanian and never deloped the mutations the lebanese ones did.


    3 iberians 3 lebanese. It looks more like the originate from Lebanon since phonecia settled in iberia and waged wars in the medditeranean.

    And since its only one albanian it vould either be recent arrival within a thousand years ago. Or one that left furing the phonecian era. As it splits 0 or 2000 ybp from the lebanese.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    Yes and? They are not J-Z2507.
    so whats your point.



    3 iberians 3 lebanese. It looks more like the originate from Lebanon since phonecia settled in iberia and waged wars in the medditeranean.

    And since its only one albanian it vould either be recent arrival within a thousand years ago. Or one that left furing the phonecian era. As it splits 1000 bc.

    Yes 3 Lebanese, Mexican and Colombian all share TMRCA 1950 ybp, and their first match except themselves is Albanian with who they share same ancestor 3000 ybp.

    L283 peaks at Albanians and they have multiple branches. So not only they all come from a guy who lived 1900 years ago, but first genetic connection is to Albanian from Vlora. And all further genetic matches are from Sweden, Denmark, England, and also multiple brother clades among Albanians.

    They are most likely European remains of Alexander the Great or Roman soldiers of Illyrian origin...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    Yes 3 Lebanese, Mexican and Colombian all share TMRCA 1950 ybp, and their first match except themselves is Albanian with who they share same ancestor 3000 ybp.

    L283 peaks at Albanians and they have multiple branches. So not only they all come from a guy who lived 1900 years ago, but first genetic connection is to Albanian from Vlora. And all further genetic matches are from Sweden, Denmark, England, and also multiple brother clades among Albanians.

    They are most likely European remains of Alexander the great or Roman soldiers of Illyrian origin...
    L283 peaks in albania from different clades ( European ones). These clades we are talking about peak in lebanon and latin america. Not albania.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    L283 peaks in albania from different clades ( eurppean ones). These clades we are talking about peak in lebanon and latin america. Not albania. Not european really at that time period of mutation.
    You are wrong, they all share TMRCA 1900 years and their first closest match except themselves is in Vlora, Albania, with who they share TMRCA 3000 years. Look - https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y146400/

    Also Albanians have tons of brother clades to all of them.. With way higher TMRCA then Middle East or North Africa.


    This is like by the book sample of Illyrian Roman soldiers leaving tracefoots in Middle East.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    You are wrong, they all share TMRCA 1900 years and their first closest match except themselves is in Vlora, Albania, with who they share TMRCA 3000 years. Look - https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y146400/
    Also Albanians have tons of brother clades to all of them.. With way higher TMRCA then Middle East or North Africa.
    This is like by the book sample of Illyrian Roman soldiers leaving tracefoots in Middle East.
    Yes, in order to make a good argument that these Lebanese are of Phoenician origin, the TMRCA amongst themselves should be 3000+ ybp and not only 1900 ypb. Instead, they share that TMRCA with a south Albanian sample, which points to their distant origin as the brother clade, J-Z2507, is as Western Balkan as it gets.

    Here is another haplogroup with a similar phylogeny that has Albanian and Italian (Sardinian) samples upstream, and a Lebanese cluster with a very similar TMRCA. This time their closest match outside themselves is an Italian from south Italy, right across the Adriatic: https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z29758/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    Of course he is wrong. In order to make a good argument that these Lebanese are of Phoenician origin, the TMRCA amongst themselves should be 3000+ ybp and not only 1900 ypb. Instead, they share that TMRCA with a south Albanian sample.

    Here is another haplogroup with a similar phylogeny that has Albanian and Italian (Sardinian) samples upstream, and a Lebanese cluster with a very similar TMRCA. This time their closest match outside themselves is an Italian from southern Italy, right across the Adriatic: https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z29758/

    I heard that besides Albanian, Lebanese female are among beautiest in the world. I cant blame them for enjoying all the goods when they are offered :)
    They have plenty of Albanian brother clades and their TMRCA fits like exactly in time of Roman rule...

    Roman rule

    The last century of Seleucid rule was marked by disorder and dynastic struggles. These ended in 64 BC, when the Roman general Pompey added Seleucid Syria and Lebanon as a Roman province to the Roman Empire. Economic and intellectual activities flourished in Lebanon during the Pax Romana. The inhabitants of the principal Phoenician cities of Byblos, Sidon, and Tyre were granted Roman citizenship. These cities were centers of the pottery, glass, and purple dye industries; their harbors also served as warehouses for products imported from Syria, Persia, and India. They exported cedar, perfume, jewelry, wine, and fruit to Rome. Economic prosperity led to a revival in construction and urban development; temples and palaces were built throughout the country, as well as paved roads that linked the cities.
    Upon the death of Theodosius I in 395 AD, the empire was divided in two: the eastern or Byzantine part with its capital at Constantinople, and the western part with its capital at Rome. Under the Byzantine Empire, intellectual and economic activities in Beirut, Tyre, and Sidon continued to flourish for more than a century. However, in the 6th century a series of earthquakes demolished the temples of Baalbek and destroyed the city of Beirut, leveling its famous law school and killing nearly 30,000 inhabitants. To these natural disasters were added the abuses and corruptions prevailing at that time in the empire. Heavy tributes and religious dissension produced disorder and confusion. Furthermore, the ecumenical councils of the 5th and 6th centuries were unsuccessful in settling religious disagreements. This turbulent period weakened the empire and made it easy prey to the newly converted Muslim Arabs of the Arabian Peninsula.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histor...non#Roman_rule

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    Yes, in order to make a good argument that these Lebanese are of Phoenician origin, the TMRCA amongst themselves should be 3000+ ybp and not only 1900 ypb. Instead, they share that TMRCA with a south Albanian sample, which points to their distant origin as the brother clade, J-Z2507, is as Western Balkan as it gets.

    Here is another haplogroup with a similar phylogeny that has Albanian and Italian (Sardinian) samples upstream, and a Lebanese cluster with a very similar TMRCA. This time their closest match outside themselves is an Italian from south Italy, right across the Adriatic: https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z29758/
    Still not really
    the albanian has tmrca 3000 ybp from z590

    And it has a range of 3900 ybp ,- 2200 ybp
    Thats 1880 bc - 180 bc .
    Phonecians existed from
    2500bc to 539 bc

    At 64 bc also is when phonecia becomes a roman colony also


    The albanian tmrca at 3000 ybp from z590 fits very well into the phonecian range.

    But also
    Because the albanians and the Lebanese are both -J-Z2507 theres more lebanese / iberians that are -J-Z2507.
    They both split from J-Z2507 4400 ybp which is aboyt 2400bc.


    Now for albanian and lebanese spliting from each other.

    The lebanese formed 3000ybp = 1000 bc


    But their whole range for tmrca from the albanian is 2800- 1300ybp which is
    800 bc -700 ad.
    The albanian left snd never developed the mutations the lebanese iberian samples did. The lebanese and iberians do share the same mutation that differentiates them from the albanian. With tmrca range 800 bc - 700ad

    The tree gives it year 0 estimate even though it has a 100 year greater difference in range for bc.

    Also notice J-Z2507 tmrca from the albanian and 4400 ybp
    Thats close to 2400bc .
    Foundation of carthage is 2500bc
    As well.


    J-Z2507

    And these go clearly go off into europe. Spread like wild fire there.


    It still fits within the possibility of phonecian split / lebanese split
    146 BC is when rome finishes off carthage

    J-Z2507 -638 spread out all over it seems passing through balkans mainly and mainland

    J-Z638 probably spreads out closer to the medditerenean but albanians get a hyper specific offshoot at J-PH2967 that stays in the balkans.

    Most of the other clades look all over the place in europe for now but russisns get a very spefic offshoot at
    J-Y12000

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    Still not really
    the albanian has tmrca 3000 ybp from z590

    And it has a range of 3900 ybp ,- 2200 ybp
    Thats 1880 bc - 180 bc .
    Phonecians existed from
    2500bc to 539 bc

    At 64 bc also is when phonecia becomes a roman colony also


    The albanian tmrca at 3000 ybp from z590 fits very well into the phonecian range.

    But also
    Because the albanians and the Lebanese are both -J-Z2507 theres more lebanese / iberians that are -J-Z2507.
    They both split from J-Z2507 4400 ybp which is aboyt 2400bc.


    Now for albanian and lebanese spliting from each other.

    The lebanese formed 3000ybp = 1000 bc


    But their whole range for tmrca from the albanian is 2800- 1300ybp which is
    800 bc -700 ad.
    The albanian left snd never developed the mutations the lebanese iberian samples did. The lebanese and iberians do share the same mutation that differentiates them from the albanian. With tmrca range 800 bc - 700ad

    The tree gives it year 0 estimate even though it has a 100 year greater difference in range for bc.

    Also notice J-Z2507 tmrca from the albanian and 4400 ybp
    Thats close to 2400bc .
    Foundation of carthage is 2500bc
    As well.


    J-Z2507

    And these go clearly go off into europe. Spread like wild fire there.


    It still fits within the possibility of phonecian split / lebanese split
    146 BC is when rome finishes off carthage

    J-Z2507 -638 spread out all over it seems passing through balkans mainly and mainland

    J-Z638 probably spreads out closer to the medditerenean but albanians get a hyper specific offshoot at J-PH2967 that stays in the balkans.

    Most of the other clades look all over the place in europe for now but russisns get a very spefic offshoot at
    J-Y12000

    Yet again you spam with walls of text while you dont understand anything.

    You found 3 living L283 samples with TMRCA 1900 ybp from Lebanon among 1000 European brotherclades and somehow you want to claim their Phoenician origin....

    Its Illyrian Balkan haplogroup, and its obvious early split happened in Balkan 3000 ybp. It for sure didnt spread from Lebanon or Carthage unless Phoenicians expanded from Russia to Spain in timeframe of 5500 ybp and they left no traces in Middle East except this 2 or 3 samples you managed to find within one branch with 1900 years TMRCA. lol this is like ridiculous

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    Yet again you spam with walls of text while you dont understand anything.

    You found 3 living L283 samples with TMRCA 1900 ybp from Lebanon among 1000 European brotherclades and somehow you want to claim their Phoenician origin....

    Its Illyrian Balkan haplogroup, and its obvious early split happened in Balkan 3000 ybp. It for sure didnt spread from Lebanon or Carthage unless Phoenicians expanded from Russia to Spain in timeframe of 5500 ybp.
    3 very clear things. Let me try to make this very much shorter shorter for you because you seem to get lost reading through too much text. I mean no offense. I can understand its alot and my typing is not grade A.


    J-Z2507 splits from the albanian and lebanese at 2400 bc. Foundation of phonecia ( not carthage, i use them interchangeably sometimes)

    Albanian formed at 2400bc but has tmrca to basal 590 at 1000bc
    The lebanese share this. Too

    Lebanese and iberians share mutations that the albanian sample does not have. Meaning that the albanian left the lebanese /iberians earlier and didnt develop the J-FGC64029 mutatio.
    The iberian lebanese samples are closer than the albanian. they both share with a tmrca range of 800bc -700 ad.


    ‐--------‐‐--------‐‐--------‐‐--------‐‐--------‐‐--------‐
    Off point topic
    I think you are letting this illyrian pride make you bias about this. Which i have no problem with albanians. Majority of Albanian clades maybe are illyrian. But that one specfic albanian clade was clearly not in that time range. It went into the balkans at much later at 1000bc than J-Z2507

    And J-L283 is not all illryian if i dont have a common ancestor with any albanians for up to 5400 ybp. Illryians didnt even exist than
    No one is saying they spread into the balkans at 5400 ybp. Im saying why do the iberians and lebanese samples look more related to each other than the albanian? They technically are. Its 3 latin americans and 3 lebanese.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    3 very clear things. Let me try to make this very much shorter shorter for you because you seem to get lost reading through too much text. I mean no offense. I can understand its alot and my typing is not grade A.
    Its not that i dont understand, even tho you type in broken English, i understand you very well. Its more that you type senseless and illogical things, and you type plenty of them more so confusing yourself then others. Its hard to reply to all of wrong things you said when almost in every sentence you make mistakes and yet you write walls of texts.




    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    J-Z2507 splits from the albanian and lebanese at 2400 bc. Foundation of phonecia ( not carthage, i use them interchangeably sometimes)
    No, Z2507 didnt split from Albanian and Lebanese samples but Z2507 is bigger and older brother clade TMRCA and distribution wise.

    J2-Z2507 where most of Albanians fall is formed 4400 ybp TMRCA 4400 ybp. J2-Y146400 where Lebanese fall is formed 4400 ybp TMRCA 1950 ybp, together with Albanian from Vlora 3000 ybp, so still lower.

    Its not important when Phoenicia neither Carthage are formed if you dont understand these basic things..... You are just spamming with meaningless text.




    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    Albanian formed at 2400bc but has tmrca to basal 590 at 1000bc
    The lebanese share this. Too
    Stop writing nonsense which even you cant explain what they mean...


    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    Lebanese and iberians share mutations that the albanian sample does not have. Meaning that the albanian left the lebanese /iberians earlier and didnt develop the J-FGC64029 mutatio.
    The iberian lebanese samples are closer than the albanian. they both share with a tmrca range of 800bc -700 ad.
    Its the other way around, Albanians not sharing FGC64029 and Lebanese sharing it means its modern mutation among them since they find ancestral clade in Albania which shares like 4 private SNPs with them but not FGC64029....

    look - https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y146400/ lol



    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    ‐--------‐‐--------‐‐--------‐‐--------‐‐--------‐‐--------‐
    Off point topic
    I think you are letting this illyrian pride make you bias about this. Which i have no problem with albanians. Majority of Albanian clades maybe are illyrian. But that one specfic albanian clade was clearly not in that time range. It went into the balkans at much later at 1000bc than J-Z2507
    There is no Illyrian pride neither bias lol, actually i claim for my own clade to be of Phoenician origin.
    Most likely Illyrianized pretty early on judging by many facts. J2-L283 has plenty of proofs for Illyrian origin, while these lack at M205, on the contrary M205 has plenty of proofs for Phoenician spread thru Mediterranean Sea...

    While your clade is exactly the opposite, you are of Illyrian origin that perhaps thru Roman time somehow got to modern day Lebanon.
    You are actually Brazilian right? Are you this Brazilian sample under fgc64029 on Yfulll?


    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    And J-L283 is not all illryian if i dont have a common ancestor with any albanians for up to 5400 ybp. Illryians didnt even exist than
    No one is saying they spread into the balkans at 5400 ybp. Im saying why do the iberians and lebanese samples look more related to each other than the albanian? They technically are. Its 3 latin americans and 3 lebanese.

    I am not saying that all J2-L283 are of Illyrian origin lol, as J2-L283 was spreading with Indo-Europeans thru Europe its natural we find it in most of European speaking countries.

    But the deal is that these Lebanese share 4 private SNPs with Albanian from Vlora, putting their TMRCA right into Illyrian period of 1000 BC.
    That is why i say they are of Illyrian origin. Even if they would not share these SNPs with anyone i would be 100 % sure that they are of European origin (TMRCA 1900 years, all brother clades with Europeans, and high distribution in Europe, almost exclusive.), but sharing these SNPs with Albanian sample is just the best possible proof you can get.

    So this specific clade is for sure connected to Albanians and their TMRCA goes into Illyrian time, im not pulling things out out of my mind, look again lol - https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y146400/


    Then both Dalmatian and Armenian J2-L283 ancient samples had significant Steppe admixture and Steppe mtDNA.

    Also they both fall into IE language group, just as Albanians, and not into Semitic language groups, where Phoenicians fall...


    Will you write another wall of senseless things now ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    Its not that i dont understand, even tho you type in broken English, i understand you very well. Its more that you type senseless and illogical things, and you type plenty of them more so confusing yourself then others. Its hard to reply to all of wrong things you said when almost in every sentence you make mistakes and yet you write walls of texts.






    No, Z2507 didnt split from Albanian and Lebanese samples but Z2507 is bigger and older brother clade TMRCA and distribution wise.

    J2-Z2507 where most of Albanians fall is formed 4400 ybp TMRCA 4400 ybp. J2-Y146400 where Lebanese fall is formed 4400 ybp TMRCA 1950 ybp, together with Albanian from Vlora 3000 ybp, so still lower.

    Its not important when Phoenicia neither Carthage are formed if you dont understand these basic things..... You are just spamming with meaningless text.






    Stop writing nonsense which even you cant explain what they mean...




    Its the other way around, Albanians not sharing FGC64029 and Lebanese sharing it means its modern mutation among them since they find ancestral clade in Albania which shares like 4 private SNPs with them but not FGC64029....

    look - https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y146400/ lol





    There is no Illyrian pride neither bias lol, actually i claim for my own clade to be of Phoenician origin.
    Most likely Illyrianized pretty early on judging by many facts. J2-L283 has plenty of proofs for Illyrian origin, while these lack at M205, on the contrary M205 has plenty of proofs for Phoenician spread thru Mediterranean Sea...

    While your clade is exactly the opposite, you are of Illyrian origin that perhaps thru Roman time somehow got to modern day Lebanon.
    You are actually Brazilian right? Are you this Brazilian sample under fgc64029 on Yfulll?





    I am not saying that all J2-L283 are of Illyrian origin lol, as J2-L283 was spreading with Indo-Europeans thru Europe its natural we find it in most of European speaking countries.

    But the deal is that these Lebanese share 4 private SNPs with Albanian from Vlora, putting their TMRCA right into Illyrian period of 1000 BC.
    That is why i say they are of Illyrian origin. Even if they would not share these SNPs with anyone i would be 100 % sure that they are of European origin (TMRCA 1900 years, all brother clades with Europeans, and high distribution in Europe, almost exclusive.), but sharing these SNPs with Albanian sample is just the best possible proof you can get.

    So this specific clade is for sure connected to Albanians and their TMRCA goes into Illyrian time, im not pulling things out out of my mind, look again lol - https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y146400/


    Then both Dalmatian and Armenian J2-L283 ancient samples had significant Steppe admixture and Steppe mtDNA.

    Also they both fall into IE language group, just as Albanians, and not into Semitic language groups, where Phoenicians fall...


    Will you write another wall of senseless things now ?
    Its not Z2507 doesnt share all the deeper mutations the illryian albanian clades do. So wtf are you talking about? It split 2400bc.

    Its like trying to argue JYp29 and haplogroup i2i2 are close brother clades because they were IJ.


    Dude they have several seperate mutations between them. They dont have common ancestors until 2400bc... When phonecia is started...

    And its one albanian clade. Theres more lebanese clades of that branch found than albanians (1) so what are you smoking?
    If they break away 1000 bc and you reallly believe its illryian are you suggesting illyrians came from lebanon at 1000 bc?

    No
    Because its a west asian migrant into the balkan. It was not a native balkan clade already existing there.

    Again... you have to ask why is it that the albanian and lebanese clades split at 1000bc. Whats the history to support that albanians invaded phonecia at 1000BC? Lol. None, but there was lots of phonecian piracy and coastal raids. And they dis occupy sardinia where -z585 lineages are.
    Did albanians occupy sardinia? No.

    But the iberian ones and lebanese are closer?

    There is only 2 possible reasons. Either that iberian clades split of into iberian from phonecian carthage migration. Or because the ancestor of these individuals was in fact west asian migrants into latin america.
    Not albanins, as you may wish to want. Albanian clades and like rest of europeans are clearly more down stream of the clade
    Z2507
    Also it doesnt matter if the sample had steppe ancestry via autosomal. What matters is the actual snp mutation and where it is found. If its found in the balkan that shows that spefic lineage was relevant to the balkans. It doesnt mean another clade of several mutations they dont even have was in there.
    Its like arguing hypothetically someone has has a new basal clade of mtdna c1d1 but is from cameroon with 99 percent west african ancestry. So therefore the new basal c1d1 clade must be from west african origins.

    Also your arguement about the albanian being ancestral was stupid. I am j-627. So does that mean albanians came from spain? Of course not... or belgium, or UK? Or sardinia? Or turkey?
    Because we recognize the tmrca of these differences and the actual snps, and the actual locations of where these subclades actually apear more often. Instead of trying to make 2 different clades the same.

    It only means that these 2 lineages split at 1000 bc. But we find them more often in lebanese samples, we know phonecians inhabited spain and sardinia.
    Albania hasnt. But we know spain also invaded sardinia, we also know spain invaded down by the balkans before.

    The balkan ancient sample is also actually 1200 bc.
    And its a deep clade at Jy23094

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    Its not Z2507 doesnt share all the deeper mutations the illryian albanian clades do. So wtf are you talking about? It split 2400bc.


    No, Z2507 didnt split from Albanian and Lebanese samples but Z2507 is bigger and older brother clade TMRCA and distribution wise. J2-Z2507 where most of Albanians fall is formed 4400 ybp TMRCA 4400 ybp. J2-Y146400 where Lebanese fall is formed 4400 ybp TMRCA 1950 ybp, together with Albanian from Vlora 3000 ybp, so still lower.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    Its like trying to argue JYp29 and haplogroup i2i2 are close brother clades because they were IJ.

    What are haplogroups JYp299 and i2i2, are you disabled or what? IJ split one from another 30 000 years ago, while your clade split from Albanians 3000 years ago, yes you are indeed. Why would you otherwise mention this.
    You just want to trǿll and type nonsense dont you? Why dont you go bother someone else instead since everyone told you that you are nuts and you still push with various stupidity.



    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    Dude they have several seperate mutations between them. They dont have common ancestors until 2400bc... When phonecia is started...

    And its one albanian clade. Theres more lebanese clades of that branch found than albanians (1) so what are you smoking?
    If they break away 1000 bc and you reallly believe its illryian are you suggesting illyrians came from lebanon at 1000 bc?
    Albanian sample matches Lebanese samples in timeframe 3000 ybp so 1000 BCE and not 2400 as you are saying here. Please stop lying and acting as monkey.

    Look again, i'm giving you this link like 10 times already : https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y146400/



    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    No
    Because its a west asian migrant into the balkan. It was not a native balkan clade already existing there.

    Again... you have to ask why is it that the albanian and lebanese clades split at 1000bc. Whats the history to support that albanians invaded phonecia at 1000BC? Lol. None, but there was lots of phonecian piracy and coastal raids. And they dis occupy sardinia where -z585 lineages are.
    Did albanians occupy sardinia? No.


    It only means that these 2 lineages split at 1000 bc. But we find them more often in lebanese samples, we know phonecians inhabited spain and sardinia.
    Albania hasnt. But we know spain also invaded sardinia,

    Lebanese samples dont have TMRCA 3000 years to put them into 1000 BCE but only 1950 years which is around 70 AD. They have TMRCA 3000 years with Albanian sample because they are of Illyrian origin.

    TMRCA 70 AD fits right into Roman rule of Lebanon, and guess what Romans ruled Spain too....

    Illyrian soldiers were known recruits into Roman army, it perfectly explains how Illyrian haplogroup is found in Lebanon and Spain with TMRCA 1950 ybp.

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    tomorrow i will draw it for you since obviously you dont understand with words

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