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Thread: J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    No, Z2507 didnt split from Albanian and Lebanese samples but Z2507 is bigger and older brother clade TMRCA and distribution wise. J2-Z2507 where most of Albanians fall is formed 4400 ybp TMRCA 4400 ybp. J2-Y146400 where Lebanese fall is formed 4400 ybp TMRCA 1950 ybp, together with Albanian from Vlora 3000 ybp, so still lower.





    What are haplogroups JYp299 and i2i2, are you disabled or what? IJ split one from another 30 000 years ago, while your clade split from Albanians 3000 years ago, yes you are indeed. Why would you otherwise mention this.
    You just want to trǿll and type nonsense dont you? Why dont you go bother someone else instead since everyone told you that you are nuts and you still push with various stupidity.





    Albanian sample matches Lebanese samples in timeframe 3000 ybp so 1000 BCE and not 2400 as you are saying here. Please stop lying and acting as monkey.

    Look again, i'm giving you this link like 10 times already : https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y146400/






    Lebanese samples dont have TMRCA 3000 years to put them into 1000 BCE but only 1950 years which is around 70 AD. They have TMRCA 3000 years with Albanian sample because they are of Illyrian origin.

    TMRCA 70 AD fits right into Roman rule of Lebanon, and guess what Romans ruled Spain too....

    Illyrian soldiers were known recruits into Roman army, it perfectly explains how Illyrian haplogroup is found in Lebanon and Spain with TMRCA 1950 ybp.
    J2-Z2507 formed 2400bc. So? So they are illryian brother clades because they formed before illryians exists? This is my point. They are mnt brother clades. The distribution is very clear. Especially when so many germans and nordics have them

    J2-Z2507
    All over europe.

    -J2-Z2507 mainly in sardinia, ancient samples in the caucus, 1 turkish, a handfull lebanese. 1 albanian that split from lebanese at 1000 BC.


    How many of them in Main europe. That 1 albanian sample that split from lebanese? At year 1000 bc?

    Even though J2-Z2507 split at 2400 bc

    Lol there was no jL283 in albania at 2400 bc.

    You were a georgian not an albanian at 3400bc I am not an illyrian subclade rofl

    Albanian would be closer to being a proto uratian than an illyrian than at 3400bc.... come on dude.

    Proto illlyrians start at earliest 1600 bc. The invasion happens 1200bc

    Me and J2-Z2507 would would be brother clades in georgia before J-L283 even stepping foot in europe 5400 years ago.
    Incase you cant tell that was sarcasm. We arent brother clades really.


    Albanian sample formed 2700bc before
    illyrians even existed at a basal j-597 level
    It tmrca with basal j-z597 is 3000ybp. 1000bc.


    The sardinians and turk sample are probably closer to me.


    No and you are reading it wrong
    J2-Z2507 tmrca is 4400ybp. To basal j-z597

    So obviously that means. J-y14600 was not with J2-Z2507 after 2400bc. Before even proto illyrians existed.

    J-y14600 tmrca to basal j-z597 is 3000 ybp...

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    @Wanderer, quite honestly, I'm not even sure where to begin to clean up your walls of nonsense, but I will single out a few...

    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    J2-Z2507 formed 2400bc. So? So they are illryian brother clades because they formed before illryians exists? This is my point. They are mnt brother clades. The distribution is very clear. Especially when so many germans and nordics have them
    How hard is it for you to understand that J-Z597 is the ancestor of J-Y146400 and J-Z2507. So yes, the latter two are brother clades. Both of them are found among Albanians and other Europeans with TMRCAs 4000+ years, while in Lebanon you have a single cluster with a founder who lived only ~1900 ybp. Hypothetically, if J-Y146400 originated in Lebanon, why is it that we don't find its brother, J-Z2507, there. On the other hand, we find both of these brother clades in the western Balkans. Also, bear in mind that we have an ancient J-Z2507+ sample in the western Balkans since at least 3600 ybp, or only ~800 years after his ancestor J-Z597 lived. So the logical thing is that one J-Y146400+ male migrated to Lebanon sometime between 3000 ybp and 1900 ybp, and not the other way around. But apparently you don't even use any logic. Also, in the future you will see more European J-Y146400 samples...

    As Dema pointed out, there no "Illyrian emotions" involved here, just the stuff you're writing is utter nonsense. For Phoenicians, you have other Y haplogroups who are by far better candidates, even found in Levantine aDNA, such as J-M205 and J-P58. Sorry, you can dream about Phoenician ancestors, but I don't think you will find it in J-L283. Play with some autosomal calculators, perhaps you will find a trace there that will satisfy you.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    -J2-Z2507 mainly in sardinia, ancient samples in the caucus, 1 turkish, a handfull lebanese. 1 albanian that split from lebanese at 1000 BC.
    What's all this nonsense here? Show me these ancient Caucasus samples that were J-Z2507+. That's right, they aren't. They were just J-L283* (Z600- YP29-). The Lebanese cluster isn't even J-Z2507, are you high or what?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    The balkan ancient sample is also actually 1200 bc.
    And its a deep clade at Jy23094
    Wrong again kid. MBA Croatia was radio carbon dated at ~1600 BC and he was J-Y15058 not J-Y23094, as you can see: https://j2-m172.info/2018/02/y-snp-a...on-et-al-2018/

    Before telling me about J-L283 and writing more walls of nonsense, I suggest you go back to school and learn how to write. You write like a confused kid who hasn't even finished 8th grade. "Ky i defton babes se si behen femijet"
    Y-DNA: J-L283
    Maternal Y-DNA: E-V13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    @Wanderer, quite honestly, I'm not even sure where to begin to clean up your walls of nonsense, but I will single out a few...



    How hard is it for you to understand that J-Z597 is the ancestor of J-Y146400 and J-Z2507. So yes, the latter two are brother clades. Both of them are found among Albanians and other Europeans with TMRCAs 4000+ years, while in Lebanon you only have a single subgroup with a founder who lived only ~1900 ybp. Hypothetically, if J-Y146400 originated in Lebanon, why is it that we don't find its brother, J-Z2507 , there. On the other hand, we find both of these brother clades in the western Balkans. Also, bear in mind that we have an ancient J-Z2507+ sample in the western Balkans since at least 3600 ybp, or only ~800 years after his ancestor J-Z597 lived. So the logical thing is that one J-Y146400+ male migrated to Lebanon sometime between 3000 ybp and 1900 ybp, and not the other way around. But apparently you don't even use any logic. Also, in the future you will see more European J-Y146400 samples...

    Where can




    What's all this nonsense here? Show me these ancient Caucasus samples that were J-Z2507+. That's right, they aren't. They were just J-L283* (Z600- YP29-). The Lebanese cluster isn't even J-Z2507, are you high or what?



    Wrong again kid. MBA Croatia was radio carbon dated at ~1600 BC and he was J-Y15058 not J-Y23094, as you can see: https://j2-m172.info/2018/02/y-snp-a...on-et-al-2018/

    Before telling me about J-L283 and writing more walls of nonsense, I suggest you go back to school and learn how to write. You write like a confused kid who hasn't even finished 8th grade. "Ky i defton babes se si behen femijet"
    1 argueing you found
    J-Z2507 only 800 years after Jz597 is a weird arguemnt when the TmRca is 4400ybp.



    Obviously since JL283 came from georgia. That doesnt necessarily equate to z597 being from lebanon...


    a basal offshot thats -J-Z2507 went to lebanon. We have more
    -J-Z2507 than albanian.

    In fact.. we have more ancient samples of -J-z585 outside of mainland europe it seems. In fact, Only georgian



    Arguing that you dont find its brother clade J-Z2507 clade even though you find -585 in turkey..

    And J-Z2507+ not being found in lebanon would actually strengthen the point that they split so long ago at. J-Z2507+ tmrca to z597 is 2400BC. You keep blatantly ignoring this.
    If they were bro clades J-Z2507+ would have been found in lebanon also. But they arent according to you. So why is that?
    Is it because just MUHbee, -J-Z2507 took a different direction from J-Z2507 (europe)?
    This is what you just argued to me. You argue my point for me without even realizing it.

    J-Z2507 went immediately to europe early?
    -J-Z2507 did not initially.
    Only until 1000bc? you have like 3 + plus mena samples of -j-Z2507. But apeal to the only mainland european one because?.



    I go by the fact of what the tmrca gives me and where its found more often and where it is not.

    J-Y14600 branched away formed 2400 BC and TMRCA from basal Jz597 at 1000BC


    J-Z2507 formed and tmrca is 2400bc...
    So at 2400bc J-Z2507 is gone from west asia.

    Im looking at the "ancient samples" here.

    The Croatian sample is 1600BC you say? Wow does that mean its -J-Z2507?
    Oh no wait. Its J-Z2507, is that right?



    "What's all this nonsense here? Show me these ancient Caucasus samples that were J-Z2507+. That's right, they aren't. They were just J-L283* (Z600- YP29-). The Lebanese cluster isn't even J-Z2507, are you high or what"
    Why would I need to show J-Z2507+ at 3128 BC before the mutation exists and when that its not in Georgia.

    Am I the one supposed to argue that it exists at 3000bc and didnt go to europe? Im kind of confused here? Cuz I thought I said it goes to europe.

    I said that -J-Z2507 stayed outside europe longer than
    J-Z2507+

    I can type like a 2nd grader but you have to be more consistent in your thought process.


    Yes both decend from 597. But the TMRCA is at different time gaps. Hello!!

    J-Z2507 tmrca is at 2400bc

    JY14600 Bc at 1000BC. Theres more lebanese that branched off this line than european....
    The 1 european sample and the lebanese branch off near 0 ad ...







    I


    Last edited by Wanderer; 27-05-19 at 16:29.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    1 argueing you found
    J-Z2507 only 800 years after Jz597 is a weird arguemnt when the TmRca is 4400ybp.



    Obviously since JL283 came from georgia. That doesnt necessarily equate to z597 being from lebanon...


    a basal offshot thats -J-Z2507 went to lebanon. We have more
    -J-Z2507 than albanian.

    In fact.. we have more ancient samples of -J-z585 outside of mainland europe it seems. In fact, Only georgian



    Arguing that you dont find its brother clade J-Z2507 clade even though you find -585 in turkey..

    And J-Z2507+ not being found in lebanon would actually strengthen the point that they split so long ago at. J-Z2507+ tmrca to z597 is 2400BC. You keep blatantly ignoring this.
    If they were bro clades J-Z2507+ would have been found in lebanon also. But they arent according to you. So why is that?

    No basal off-shot or anything went to Lebanon you little trølling ignorant. Lebanese samples have TMRCA 1950 ybp and first match in Albania 3000 ybp, There is gap of 1000 years simply because this 1000 years was lost in bottleneck among Albanians, you should be lucky that you found 3000 years close match, which is extremely close when trying to find one group migration route. This is like first class prove that you are actually of Illyrian/Albanian origin.

    This is like one micro branch in Lebanon/Colombia/Spain with TMRCA 1950 years, and first match in Albania, and plenty of brother clades at Albanians and Europeans from Russia to Spain.
    Practically none existent in Semitic speaking world and going all the way back to its formed date 9000 years its extremely European haplogroup, with its highest peak at Albanians.

    Adding that to ancient DNAs, there is zero chance for Phoenician origin. But rather 99.99 % Illyrian. However, they probably assimilated into Phoenician culture since Roman rule and then become Lebanese..

    Now i want to show you other Albanian branches which are all brother clades to this Lebanese branch formed 4400 years ago with TMRCA 1950 years.



    Look this is your Lebanon clade, formed 4400 ybp TMRCA 1950 years, together with Albanian sample 3000 years:





    Notice SNPs FGC64027, Y146400, FGC64043 being shared among Albanian and Lebanese samples which gives them TMRCA 3000 years (Illyrian time), but only Lebanese samples have TMRCA 1950 years.


    Now look this:

    This is another branch inside of L283, formed 4400 ybp, so brotherclade to Albanian/Lebanese branch which is also formed 4400 ybp.
    But this brother clade has TMRCA 4000 years, with Albanian sample inside TMRCA 3900 years.

    This is legit brother clade to Y146490 as they are both formed 4400ybp.






    Look this, another brother clade inside of L283, formed 4200 ybp, TMRCA 3400 ybp.

    This is legit brotherclade to J-Y146400 with formed date 4200 ybp, and TMRCA 3400ybp.

    Look, Albanians and Europeans again.....




    Look another separated clade inside of L283:

    Look, formed 3600 ybp, TMRCA 1450 ybp, again Albanians and Europeans... No Phoenician or Middle Eastern traces....





    Look another brother clade to FGC64029, a bit younger tho, formed 2800 ybp, so its formed about the time when Lebanese FGC64029 SNP was formed, about 3000 years ago, but its Albanian....

    formed 2800 ybp, TMRCA 2200 ybp.






    Also not to mention that both L283 aDNA Armenian and Dalmatian where Steppe admix with Steppe mtDNA, obviously belonging to IE language group, just as Albnians do, while again, Phoenicians where Semitic speakers.

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    One branch went to Lebanon and one branch to Spain and later probably with colonisation of Latin America to Colombia/Brasil.
    They have TMRCA 1950 years and its Roman rule which connect these dots with this Illyrian line.


    He still didnt answer which branch he belongs to, and is he this Brazilian sample under J-FGC64029 ?

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y146400/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    No basal off-shot or anything went to Lebanon you little trølling ignorant. Lebanese samples have TMRCA 1950 ybp and first match in Albania 3000 ybp, There is gap of 1000 years simply because this 1000 years was lost in bottleneck among Albanians, you should be lucky that you found 3000 years close match, which is extremely close when trying to find one group migration route. This is like first class prove that you are actually of Illyrian/Albanian origin.

    This is like one micro branch in Lebanon/Colombia/Spain with TMRCA 1950 years, and first match in Albania, and plenty of brother clades at Albanians and Europeans from Russia to Spain.
    Practically none existent in Semitic speaking world and going all the way back to its formed date 9000 years its extremely European haplogroup, with its highest peak at Albanians.

    Adding that to ancient DNAs, there is zero chance for Phoenician origin. But rather 99.99 % Illyrian. However, they probably assimilated into Phoenician culture since Roman rule and then become Lebanese..

    Now i want to show you other Albanian branches which are all brother clades to this Lebanese branch formed 4400 years ago with TMRCA 1950 years.



    Look this is your Lebanon clade, formed 4400 ybp TMRCA 1950 years, together with Albanian sample 3000 years:





    Notice SNPs FGC64027, Y146400, FGC64043 being shared among Albanian and Lebanese samples which gives them TMRCA 3000 years (Illyrian time), but only Lebanese samples have TMRCA 1950 years.


    Now look this:

    This is another branch inside of L283, formed 4400 ybp, so brotherclade to Albanian/Lebanese branch which is also formed 4400 ybp.
    But this brother clade has TMRCA 4000 years, with Albanian sample inside TMRCA 3900 years.

    This is legit brother clade to Y146490 as they are both formed 4400ybp.






    Look this, another brother clade inside of L283, formed 4200 ybp, TMRCA 3400 ybp.

    This is legit brotherclade to J-Y146400 with formed date 4200 ybp, and TMRCA 3400ybp.

    Look, Albanians and Europeans again.....




    Look another separated clade inside of L283:

    Look, formed 3600 ybp, TMRCA 1450 ybp, again Albanians and Europeans... No Phoenician or Middle Eastern traces....





    Look another brother clade to FGC64029, a bit younger tho, formed 2800 ybp, so its formed about the time when Lebanese FGC64029 SNP was formed, about 3000 years ago, but its Albanian....

    formed 2800 ybp, TMRCA 2200 ybp.






    Also not to mention that both L283 aDNA Armenian and Dalmatian where Steppe admix with Steppe mtDNA, obviously belonging to IE language group, just as Albnians do, while again, Phoenicians where Semitic speakers.
    Its a basal offshoot...

    You only show albanian formed around the same time period other J-Z2507 subclades diverged from basal Z597 on TMRCA. 2400BC. Let me spell it out. TIME OF MOST RECENT ANCESTOR :4400YBP. thats 2400BC. Thats to Basal Z597.


    What was the point of showing me albanian tmrca is? If its J-Z2507+ and not
    -J-Z2507

    But the fact is.... it it was bottlenecked in albania .. you shoukd see more samples from that branch in albania than lebanon!!
    You keep ignoring that there is more J-Y146400 decended branches from lebanon than the 1 albanian one
    Again!!!

    Do you not realize that lebanese https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-FGC64029 samples are also J-Y146400 because they have the same mutation?

    What you dont understand is they are both same until 1950 ybp, 50 BC



    But some how even they both have tmrca to z590* at 1000BC (-J-Z2507)
    While
    J-Z2507+ is at 2400BC?
    Makes them bro clades?

    Do you realize that albanian is decended from J-Z2507+ so it is not J-Y146400?


    European real Albanian sample
    3600 ybp, TMRCA 1450 ybp

    Let me put it simpler


    Also the 4400ybp subclade of J-Z2507+
    That doesnt make it a brother clade.
    They dont have common ancestors. They were more lebanese with J-Y14600 mutations than Albanians.
    Means it diverged over 1000 years earlier from the lebanese samples




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    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    One branch went to Lebanon and one branch to Spain and later probably with colonisation of Latin America to Colombia/Brasil.
    They have TMRCA 1950 years and its Roman rule which connect these dots with this Illyrian line.


    He still didnt answer which branch he belongs to, and is he this Brazilian sample under J-FGC64029 ?

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y146400/
    I admire your patience. Although I think he is deliberately refusing to understand.

    I saw in an earlier post in the thread that he is the Z600* sample on Yfull.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ernekar View Post
    I admire your patience. Although I think he is deliberately refusing to understand.

    I saw in an earlier post in the thread that he is the Z600* sample on Yfull.
    Yes I am. So I dont decend from J-Z2507+ tun tun. So my lineage was not part of J-Z2507+ it stemmed from georgia at that level!!! Before J-Z2507+ even existed!! At 3400BC!!! Tun tun tun. Actually disect where my path followed you would need more branches of my lineage.
    So far the closest thing to that is a turk and armenians/ georgian In old world With divergence at 34000BC

    And the other hispanic is decended from my in the 1400-1600s time frame. So its not early enough divergence time frame make conslusions of origins before 1400-1600 ad. Since we are both new worlders

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    J-Y146400 is not basal lol, its formed 4400 YBP, and Albanians have brother clade also formed 4400 YBP


    They are both under J-Z597 SNP, and both formed 4400 ybp. Lebanese are only small neglectable branch with 1950 years TMRCA, with closest relatives in Albania lol.

    look:


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    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    J-Y146400 is not basal lol, its formed 4400 YBP, and Albanians have brother clade also formed 4400 YBP


    They are both under J-Z597 SNP, and both formed 4400 ybp. Lebanese are only small neglectable branch with 1950 years TMRCA, with closest relatives in Albania lol.

    look:

    Its not when they form thats important. Its the most recent common ancestor !!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    Its not when they form thats important. Its the most recent common ancestor !!!

    No actually these are two brother clades because they are both downstream of J-Z597 SNP and they are both formed 4400 ybp.
    Their TMRCA is not important in this case when identifying brother clades.


    But even when looking at TMRCA its obvious that brother clade where most Albanians fall has higher TMRCA, formed 4400 TMRCA 4000, and Albanian-Lebanese brother clade formed 4400 ybp TMRCA 1950 ybp, adding Albnian samples they reach to TMRCA 3000 ybp.

    You are wrong about everything you say i only wonder why moderators if there is any that understands these basic things dont show up and make some order.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ernekar View Post
    I admire your patience. Although I think he is deliberately refusing to understand.

    I saw in an earlier post in the thread that he is the Z600* sample on Yfull.


    He is deliberately trølling and saying pile of meaningless things mentioning some clades or history to appear as he knows what he is saying while in fact its all pile of nonsense.

    If anyone tries to actually read and understand his posts he will understand that we are dealing with childish trøll.


    He is just piling up text with broken English and none understanding Yfull tree, phylogeny, clades, and actually nothing...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    No actually these are two brother clades because they are both downstream of J-Z597 SNP and they are both formed 4400 ybp.
    Their TMRCA is not important in this case when identifying brother clades.


    But even when looking at TMRCA its obvious that brother clade where most Albanians fall has higher TMRCA, formed 4400 TMRCA 4000, and Albanian-Lebanese brother clade formed 4400 ybp TMRCA 1950 ybp, adding Albnian samples they reach to TMRCA 3000 ybp.

    You are wrong about everything you say i only wonder why moderators if there is any that understands these basic things dont show up and make some order.
    J-Z597 doesn't have a common ancestor with z597 until 2400 BC so it doesnt matter when it formed

    While JY14600 has one at 1000BC...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    He is deliberately trølling and saying pile of meaningless things mentioning some clades or history to appear as he knows what he is saying while in fact its all pile of nonsense.

    If anyone tries to actually read and understand his posts he will understand that we are dealing with childish trøll.


    He is just piling up text with broken English and none understanding Yfull tree, phylogeny, clades, and actually nothing...
    Exactly.
    I even reported him half a day ago. And I brough specific examples of where and when he was lying and trölling.

    But it seems the mods don't want to moderate trölling, as long as it is just trölling against Albanians or North Macedonians.

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    So he is Dominican sample J2-L283>J-Z600*

    He is just another isolated branch-off that we usually find in isolated places like Sardinia, Corsica, Malta.

    No wonder he is from Dominican republic, another isolated place where these rare branches might have find refuge.

    There is no doubt that he is European descent that probably thru Spain and colonisation of South America later emigrated to islands of Caribbean Sea and survived there as isolated branch while closest relatives were lost in bottleneck.


    He used to claim J2-L283 spread from Sardinia, i'm wondering why he didnt say its spread from Dominican Republic judging by his own sample :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    J-Z597 doesn't have a common ancestor with z597 until 2400 BC so it doesnt matter when it formed

    While JY14600 has one at 1000BC...


    Look now what he is saying J-Z597 doesn't have common ancestor with J-Z597 ......


    Also he mentions some SNP JY14600 that does not exists.. Its just pile of trash whatever he says

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    Look. Kuraxes culture -> late kuraxes culture.
    See



    Kura axes culture is from 3400 BC.to 2000BC
    It extends as far as to northern lebanon or right by it.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    Look now what he is saying J-Z597 doesn't have common ancestor with J-Z597 ......


    Also he mentions some SNP JY14600 that does not exists.. Its just pile of trash whatever he says
    I dont have ancestor with z597, tell me where I said that i do?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    Look now what he is saying J-Z597 doesn't have common ancestor with J-Z597 ......


    Also he mentions some SNP JY14600 that does not exists.. Its just pile of trash whatever he says
    It doesnt have a common ancestor UNTIL 2400 BC. (Late kura axes culture)

    That is for J-Z2507
    JY14600 is 1000BC ( 1000 years + past kura axes culture)

    Jy14600 has common ancestor between 2400BC and 1000BC
    While J-Z2507 does not. Only before 2400BC (kura axes culture)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    I dont have ancestor with z597, tell me where I said that i do?
    You were lying that Y146400 is basal to Z2507 when its clear they are both brother clades formed 4400 years ago from a same ancestor (Z615).
    With Z2507 being more widespread and with higher TMRCA.



    Look, Y146400 is not Basal to Z2507 but its smaller brother clade with lower TMRCA. Nothing else. It has matches in Albania and tons of brother clades there and its spread with Europeans most likely from Albania since the closest relatives except themselves (1900 years TMRCA) are in Albania (3000 years TMRCA).

    I know you are disabled and that you will write some stupidity again.. Btw you are reported.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    You were lying that Y146400 is basal to Z2507 when its clear they are both brother clades formed 4400 years ago from a same ancestor (Z615).
    With Z2507 being more widespread and with higher TMRCA.



    Look, Y146400 is not Basal to Z2507 but its smaller brother clade with lower TMRCA. Nothing else. It has matches in Albania and tons of brother clades there and its spread with Europeans most likely from Albania since the closest relatives except them selves (1900 years TMRCA) are in Albania (3000 years TMRCA).

    I know you are disabled and that you will write some stupidity again.. Btw you are reported.


    JY14600 most recent common ancestor to basal z597 is 1000BC. It says so on the TMRCA. Thats what it stands for.

    While J-Z2507 is 2400BC. I don't know what to tell if you cannot comprehend this. It has 1000 year or more difference from the time they both split z 597.
    2400 BC
    Vs
    1000BC

    And there is more lebanese JY14600 than albanian.
    While the lebanese and albanian split in 50 bc.
    Ultimatly we can say that we likely derived from kura axes culture.
    Its the source of JL283 most likely.

    Also at 615 was not in germany at 5400 BC
    It was in georgia/ armenia. When you find ancient samples of 615 in germany, that would be interesting. On the other hand kura axes culture does reach toward lebanon and by anatolia.

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    Even tho i draw it to you, you still don't get it, and the worst of all is that you are saying that i can't comprehend something .....


    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    JY14600 most common ancestor to basal z597 is 1000BC. It says so on the TMRCA. Thats what it stands for.
    JY14600 does not exist, you are as usually typing trash, perhaps you thought on J-Y146400.
    No J-Y146400 is not connected to other Z597 samples closer then 4400 years as formed date shows you and not "1000BC" as you said, not TMRCA, but even i explain you this in previous post you are still lying and refusing to accept facts and how to read Yfull tree.

    Both Albanian Z2507 and Albanian Y146400 are brother clades, both formed 4400 ybp, There is only one smaller branch-off under Albanian Y145400 with SNP FGC64029 that is Lebanese and it has TMRCA only 1900 years. Thats about it.



    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    While J-Z2507 is 2400BC. I don't know what to tell if you cannot comprehend this. It has 1000 year or more difference from the time they both split z 597.
    2400 BC
    Vs
    1000BC
    Again Z2507 and Y146400 split from Z615, in the same time 4400 ybp.



    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    And there is more lebanese JY14600 than albanian.
    While the lebanese and albanian split in 50 bc.
    Lebanese L283 are neglectable, they have low TMRCA and relatives in Albania and Europe.

    Lebanese and Albanian didnt split 50 BC but 3000 ybp. Do you see that Lebanese/Spanish cluser is formed 3000 ybp ??? That is when they split.





    This is European haplogroup and you are ancestor of Europeans colonising America in 17 century :)

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    Here you can read how your European haplogroup got to Dominican republic and Caribbean Sea:


    The European colonization of the Americas describes the history of the settlement and establishment of control of the continents of the Americas by most of the naval powers of Western Europe.



    Political map of the America in 1794




    Spanish conquistador style armour




    American Discovery Viewed by Native Americans (Thomas Hart Benton, 1922). European "discovery" and colonization would have disastrous effects on the indigenous peoples of the Americas and their societies.


    Systematic European colonization began in 1492, when a Spanish expedition headed by the Italian explorer Christopher Columbus sailed west to find a new trade route to the Far East but inadvertently landed in what came to be known to Europeans as the "New World". He ran aground on the northern part of Hispaniola on 5 December 1492, which the Taino people had inhabited since the 9th century; the site became the first permanent European settlement in the Americas. Western European conquest, large-scale exploration and colonization soon followed. Columbus's first two voyages (1492–93) reached the Bahamas and various Caribbean islands, including Hispaniola, Puerto Rico, and Cuba. In 1497, Italian explorer John Cabot, on behalf of England, landed on the North American coast, and a year later, Columbus's third voyage reached the South American coast. As the sponsor of Christopher Columbus's voyages, Spain was the first European power to settle and colonize the largest areas, from North America and the Caribbean to the southern tip of South America.
    The Spaniards began building their American empire in the Caribbean, using islands such as Cuba, Puerto Rico, and Hispaniola as bases. The North and South American mainland fell to the conquistadors, with an estimated 8,000,000 deaths of indigenous populations, which has been argued to be the first large-scale act of genocide in the modern era.[1] Florida fell to Juan Ponce de León after 1513. From 1519 to 1521, Hernán Cortés waged a campaign against the Aztec Empire, ruled by Moctezuma II. The Aztec capital, Tenochtitlan, became Mexico City, the chief city of what the Spanish were now calling "New Spain". More than 240,000 Aztecsdied during the siege of Tenochtitlan. Of these, 100,000 died in combat.[2] Between 500 and 1,000 of the Spaniards engaged in the conquest died. Later, the areas that are today California, Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado, Texas, Missouri, Louisiana, and Alabama were taken over by other conquistadors, such as Hernando de Soto, Francisco Vázquez de Coronado, and Álvar Núñez Cabeza de Vaca. Farther to the south, Francisco Pizarroconquered the Inca Empire during the 1530s. The de Soto expedition was the first major encounter of Europeans with North American Indians in the eastern half of the United States. The expedition journeyed from Florida through present-day Georgia and the Carolinas, then west across the Mississippi and into Texas. De Soto fought his biggest battle at the walled town of Mabila in present-day Alabama on October 18, 1540. Spanish losses were 22 killed and 148 wounded. The Spaniards claimed that 2,500 Indians died. If true, Mabila was the bloodiest battle ever fought between native Americans and Europeans in the present-day United States.[3] The centuries of continuous conflicts between the North American Indians and the Anglo-Americans were secondary to the devastation wrought on the densely populated Meso-American, Andean, and Caribbean heartlands.[4]
    The British colonization of the Americas started with the unsuccessful settlement attempts in Roanoke and Newfoundland. The English eventually went on to control much of Eastern North America, The Caribbean, and parts of South America. The British also gained Florida and Quebec in the French and Indian War. [5]
    Other powers such as France also founded colonies in the Americas: in eastern North America, a number of Caribbean islands and small coastal parts of South America. Portugal colonized Brazil, tried colonizing the eastern coasts of present-day Canada and settled for extended periods northwest (on the east bank) of the River Plate. The Age of Exploration was the beginning of territorial expansion for several European countries. Europe had been preoccupied with internal wars and was slowly recovering from the loss of population caused by the Black Death; thus the rapid rate at which it grew in wealth and power was unforeseeable in the early 15th century.[6]
    Eventually, most of the Western Hemisphere came under the control of Western European governments, leading to changes to its landscape, population, and plant and animal life. In the 19th century over 50 million people left Western Europe for the Americas.[7] The post-1492 era is known as the period of the Columbian Exchange, a dramatically widespread exchange of animals, plants, culture, human populations (including slaves), ideas, and communicable disease between the American and Afro-Eurasian hemispheres following Columbus's voyages to the Americas.
    Henry F. Dobyns estimates that immediately before European colonization of the Americas there were between 90 and 112 million people in the Americas; a larger population than Europe at the same time. [8



    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe...f_the_Americas]

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    Even tho i draw it to you, you still don't get it, and the worst of all is that you are saying that i can't comprehend something .....




    JY14600 does not exist, you are as usually typing trash, perhaps you thought on J-Y146400.
    No J-Y146400 is not connected to other Z597 samples closer then 4400 years as formed date shows you and not "1000BC" as you said, not TMRCA, but even i explain you this in previous post you are still lying and refusing to accept facts and how to read Yfull tree.

    Both Albanian Z2507 and Albanian Y146400 are brother clades, both formed 4400 ybp, There is only one smaller branch-off under Albanian Y145400 with SNP FGC64029 that is Lebanese and it has TMRCA only 1900 years. Thats about it.





    Again Z2507 and Y146400 split from Z615, in the same time 4400 ybp.





    Lebanese L283 are neglectable, they have low TMRCA and relatives in Albania and Europe.

    Lebanese and Albanian didnt split 50 BC but 3000 ybp. Do you see that Lebanese/Spanish cluser is formed 3000 ybp ??? That is when they split.





    This is European haplogroup and you are ancestor of Europeans colonising America in 17 century :)
    Pfff. Lebanese JY14600 is negligle because it has low relatives in albania. Than that means albanians arent very closely related. Just that one sample vs multiple lebanese samples.

    Their most recent common ancestor is 1950ybp TMRCA to z597

    You can have two people that are J-Z597
    And have different TMRCA. They will end up being two different J-Z597 lineages . And have further different mutations. Just like how I am J-z600 or J L283 and they are, yet we dont have common ancestors until 5400 ybp, 3400 BC.


    It doesnt matter when its formed.
    It only matters when they have a common ancestor.


    Conclusion, my Jz627 clade is late kuraxes anatolian / lebanese clade.
    JY14600 Is Lebanese
    Yours Jz2507 and others is european.

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    Blabbing about spaniards in the carribean wouldnt matter. My z627 clade came from lebanese during phonecian era into southern spain. Made a pit stop at sardinia with J -yp29 left clades from kura axes culture that had existed since 3000bc.

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