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Thread: J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    Pfff. Lebanese JY14600 is negligle because it has low relatives in albania. Than that means albanians arent very closely related. Just that one sample vs multiple lebanese samples.

    Their most recent common ancestor is 1950ybp TMRCA to z597

    You can have two people that are J-Z597
    And have different TMRCA. They will end up being two different J-Z597 lineages . And have further different mutations. Just like how I am J-z600 or J L283 and they are, yet we dont have common ancestors until 5400 ybp, 3400 BC.


    It doesnt matter when its formed.
    It only matters when they have a common ancestor.


    Conclusion, my Jz627 clade is late kuraxes anatolian / lebanese clade.
    JY14600 Is Lebanese
    Yours Jz2507 and others is european.


    Its neglectable because its very rare in Lebanon and in Semitic speaking countries, only exists in one or two branches like this in Lebanon with TMRCA 2000 years and with all other relatives in Europe, among all Europe countries, with closest matches in Albania.

    lol

    Also its ancient DNA found in Armenia and Dalmatia with Steppe mtDNA and admixture. Also both Albanian and Armenian belong to IE languages.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    Blabbing about spaniards in the carribean wouldnt matter. My z627 clade came from lebanese during phonecian era into southern spain. Made a pit stop at sardinia with J -yp29 left clades from kura axes culture that had existed since 3000bc.
    hahahahahhahhahahahahahaahhahaahahahha


    You are part of Spanish colonization lol, at least that is obvious.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    Its neglectable because its very rare in Lebanon and in Semitic speaking countries, only exists in one or two branches like this in Lebanon with TMRCA 2000 years and with all other relatives in Europe, among all Europe countries, with closest matches in Albania.

    lol

    Also its ancient DNA found in Armenia and Dalmatia with Steppe mtDNA and admixture. Also both Albanian and Armenian belong to IE languages.
    Mtdna and autosomal dna does not matter at all. KNOW YYY?

    i am 627, I do not have a west eurasian mtdna, so does that mean my Ydna came from east asia? Obviously Not. Men do not pass down mtdna, only women do

    And I dont have steppe autosomal ancestry. So what is the point of that argument? We know it was in the steppe because of ancient ydna samples, not because it had steppe autosomal dna,. We know because ydna where kura axes culture inhabited.

    Autosomal dna can be lost in a few generations or greatly diminished. It wouldnt matter.


    Language can change and be lost for another. This has happened many times in history. Dont understand the language arguements for something that is dna in a very strict father to son hereditary fashion

    I can move to china, have half chinese kids, his kids will remain in china there after. Wouldnt make his y dna origin before china chinese.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    hahahahahhahhahahahahahaahhahaahahahha


    You are part of Spanish colonization lol, at least that is obvious.
    It is, but colonization happened at 1492- 1800 AD

    Not 2000BC - 146 BC.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    Mtdna and autosomal dna does not matter at all. KNOW YYY?


    hahahahahahahahhaha why are you making me laugh ????
    We are talking about ancient samples here, ofc that everything matters.

    Do you know that you got European haplogroup that spread to Caribbean Sea with Spanish and British colonisations?

    Do you know that it happened in 16 and 17 century ?

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    There were also Italian immigrants to Dominican republic 1880's, they could have brought this Z600* there

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    hahahahahahahahhaha why are you making me laugh ????
    We are talking about ancient samples here, ofc that everything matters.

    Do you know that you got European haplogroup that spread to Caribbean Sea with Spanish and British colonisations?

    Do you know that it happened in 16 and 17 century ?
    Wheres the ancient samples of -J-Z2507 in albania than? Where are they? Georgia. Not albania.

    There is none. Kura axes culture was steppe anyways. And it reached reached to anatolia and northern lebanon.

    But comparing a modern albanian to an ancient sample not the same thing either, because like I said, autosomal dna changes, and mtdna is only passed via by females.

    So it doesnt matter really at all when we talk about JY14600.

    The spanish iberian peninsula was colonized by north africans and caliphates and their soldiers from lebanon middle east area and north africans.

    But carthage phonecia also settled southern spain way before that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ernekar View Post
    There were also Italian immigrants to Dominican republic 1880's, they could have brought this Z600* there
    I know my paternal line earlier than that bro. I know all my ancestors on my dominican side at that time. Every dominican line to 1880s.
    None were italian. And the only one that matters for Ydna is my direct paternal line.
    I know my paternal line way before 1880.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    I know my paternal line earlier than that bro. I know all my ancestors on my dominican side at that time. Every dominican line to 1880s.
    None were italian. And the only one that matters for Ydna is my direct paternal line.
    I know my paternal line way before 1880.

    Even tho there is chance they were Italians, highest chances go to Spain due to their colonisation.

    I doubt that pre European Caribbean population had any L283....



    It probably arrived somewhere thru Balkans/Italy and then towards Spain and Caribbean Sea in 16 and 17 century..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    Even tho there is chance they were Italians, highest chances go to Spain due to their colonisation.

    I doubt that pre European Caribbean population had any L283....



    It probably arrived somewhere thru Balkans/Italy and then towards Spain and Caribbean Sea in 16 and 17 century..
    If its spain its carthagenian/ phonecians. Thats for sure.

    Italian is a low chance. The only way it could be italian is if it were actually sardinian. Which could make sense since spain colonized sardinia at a point. And sardinia was colonized by phonecians before that. Phonecians used mercenaries. Could have been a mercenary from a surviving kura axes anatolian / lebanese.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    If its spain its carthagenian/ phonecians. Thats for sure.

    Italian is a low chance. The only way it could be italian is if it were actually sardinian. Which could make sense since spain colonized sardinia at a point. And sardinia was colonized by phonecians before that. Phonecians used mercenaries. Could have been a mercenary from a surviving kura axes anatolian / lebanese.


    If 16 century Spanish colonies were Phoenicians then yes, its Phoenician

    Whatever makes you more happy.

    BTW Phoenicians didnt sail across the Atlantic Ocean to Caribbean Sea, on the other hands Spaniards did. In Spain , Italy and Balkans there is Plenty L283 in various clades just as in Europe, others are minor off-shots, just as your Caribbean L283 branch is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    If 16 century Spanish colonies were Phoenicians then yes, its Phoenician

    Whatever makes you more happy.

    BTW Phoenicians didnt sail across the Atlantic Ocean to Caribbean Sea, on the other hands Spaniards did. In Spain , Italy and Balkans there is Plenty L283 just as in Europe, others are minor off-shots, just as your Caribbean L283 branch
    Spaniards were already a mixes bag of celts goths french romans and southern spain had few phonecians and berbers. My ydna clade is highly atypical so my line doesn't come from spaniards of other lines. Including other spanish J-L283 we know of. My most distant ancestor with them is 5400ybp just like any JL283. Including georgians and armenians

    The closest things to my clade are only shown to exist in georgia using ancient samples. And if we talk modern, turkey and sardinia. Just because mainland european branches have so many different added markers I wouldn't have.

    While we have other clades from lebanon diverged much more recent from basal z597.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    Spaniards were already a mixes bag of celts goths french romans and southern spain had few phonecians and berbers. My ydna clade is highly atypical so my line doesn't come from spaniards of other lines. Including other spanish J-L283 we know of. My most distant ancestor with them is 5400ybp just like any JL283. Including georgians and armenians

    The closest things to my clade are only shown to exist in georgia using ancient samples. And if we talk modern, turkey and sardinia. Just because mainland european branches have so many different added markers I wouldn't have.

    While we have other clades from lebanon diverged much more recent from basal z597.

    What are your STR markers, how do you know you dont have matches in Europe, there will come match sooner or later.

    You dont have matches because you are isolated off-shot and probably bottlenecked elsewhere. But origin of L283 is very clear..

    It could have come to Caribbean sea most early in 16 century with Spaniards, probably with Balkan or Italian origin.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    Spaniards were already a mixes bag of celts goths french romans and southern spain had few phonecians and berbers. My ydna clade is highly atypical so my line doesn't come from spaniards of other lines. Including other spanish J-L283 we know of. My most distant ancestor with them is 5400ybp just like any JL283. Including georgians and armenians
    The closest things to my clade are only shown to exist in georgia using ancient samples. And if we talk modern, turkey and sardinia. Just because mainland european branches have so many different added markers I wouldn't have.
    While we have other clades from lebanon diverged much more recent from basal z597.
    Your closest STR match is someone with a Spanish sounding surname. Forget about fantasizing of Phoenicians, Carthagenians, etc. There is practically zero L283 in those regions. The only L283 cluster in Lebanon has Balkan/European origin, as has been demonstrated to you here countless of times. You are either not bright enough to get it, or you refuse to accept it. There can be 5000 Lebanese who are J-FGC64029, the fact of the matter is they all share a very recent ancestor who lived ~1900 ybp, the Phoenicians had basically disappeared by then. And these guys are not even in your clade.

    And WTH is this talk about "Georgians"? The two ancient samples were not even from modern day Georgia. The MBA sample was from southernmost Russia, the other was from LBA Armenia. Regardless, neither of them are in the J-Z600 branch, where you are, as both of them are negative for Z627 as you can see here: https://j2-m172.info/links/scientific-papers/#ancient

    So your closest matches remain all those who are under J-Z600. All four parallel J-Z600 lines are European. One of them is formed by your sample. The Istanbul sample is technically a border region between Balkans and Anatolia (nevermind he has a Greek surname). The third parallel line, J-YP157, should have a TMRCA going well into the bronze age as the Sardinians samples share only 4 SNPs amongst themselves. Finally, the fourth parallel line, J-Z585, has a TMRCA of ~5400 ybp with all European basal samples as well. So your ancestors were most likely in Europe before the Phoenicians were even mentioned. So I agree with Dema here, you should be looking at some Roman legions from Balkans or Italy as your ancestors who colonized Iberria. (Mainland Italy, like the Balkans, is highly under tested).
    Y-DNA: J-L283
    Maternal Y-DNA: E-V13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    Your closest STR match is someone with a Spanish sounding surname. Forget about fantasizing of Phoenicians, Carthagenians, etc. There is practically zero L283 in those regions. The only L283 cluster in Lebanon has Balkan/European origin, as has been demonstrated to you here countless of times. You either are too dumb to get it, or you refuse to accept it. There can be 5000 Lebanese who are J-FGC64029, the fact of the matter is they all share a very recent ancestor who lived ~1900 ybp, the Phoenicians had basically disappeared by then. And these guys are not even on your clade.

    And WTH is this talk about "Georgians"? The two ancient samples were not even from modern day Georgia. The MBA sample was from southernmost Russia, the other was from LBA Armenia. Regardless, neither of them are in the J-Z600 branch, where you are, as both of them are negative for Z627 as you can see here: https://j2-m172.info/links/scientific-papers/#ancient

    So your closest matches remain all those who are under J-Z600, and not some "Georgians". All three parallel J-Z600 lines are European. The Istanbul sample is technically a border region between Balkans and Anatolia. The third parallel clade, J-Z585, has a TMRCA of 5400 ybp with all European samples as well. So your ancestors were most likely in Europe before the Phoenicians were mentioned. So I agree with Dema here, you should be looking at some Roman legions from Balkans or Italy as your ancestors who colonized Iberria. (Mainland Italy, like the Balkans, is highly under tested)
    I agree, its probably connected with Roman legions in Spain, with Balkan origin and later in 16 century colonised Caribbean Sea where his isolated branch managed to survive.

    According to one research about 60 % of Dominican Republic DNA is European, 30 % is Sub-Saharan and 10 % is Native American. There is no wonder that he got classic European haplogroup.



    The overall genetic makeup of the Dominican Republic's population is estimated to be approximately 60% European, 30% Black African, and 10% Native American on average according to recent genealogical DNA testing.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People...nd_ethnicities


    He never mentioned Spanish sounding match :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    Your closest STR match is someone with a Spanish sounding surname. Forget about fantasizing of Phoenicians, Carthagenians, etc. There is practically zero L283 in those regions. The only L283 cluster in Lebanon has Balkan/European origin, as has been demonstrated to you here countless of times. You are either not bright enough to get it, or you refuse to accept it. There can be 5000 Lebanese who are J-FGC64029, the fact of the matter is they all share a very recent ancestor who lived ~1900 ybp, the Phoenicians had basically disappeared by then. And these guys are not even in your clade.

    And WTH is this talk about "Georgians"? The two ancient samples were not even from modern day Georgia. The MBA sample was from southernmost Russia, the other was from LBA Armenia. Regardless, neither of them are in the J-Z600 branch, where you are, as both of them are negative for Z627 as you can see here: https://j2-m172.info/links/scientific-papers/#ancient

    So your closest matches remain all those who are under J-Z600. All four parallel J-Z600 lines are European. One of them is formed by your sample. The Istanbul sample is technically a border region between Balkans and Anatolia (nevermind he has a Greek surname). The third parallel line, J-YP157, should have a TMRCA going well into the bronze age as the Sardinians samples share only 4 SNPs amongst themselves. Finally, the fourth parallel line, J-Z585, has a TMRCA of ~5400 ybp with all European basal samples as well. So your ancestors were most likely in Europe before the Phoenicians were even mentioned. So I agree with Dema here, you should be looking at some Roman legions from Balkans or Italy as your ancestors who colonized Iberria. (Mainland Italy, like the Balkans, is highly under tested).
    My closest STR is someone from spain from 5400 ybp. Sure .... when I am Jz627 minus every other single mutation after jz600. And z586

    The Lebanese J-L283 likely has less snp differences than the spaniard one.
    What is his subclade? And kit number? Because I Have 0 Str matches except
    for the other new world hispanic.

    The closest STR matches I have after that are only at a Y 12 level and they only test 12 str markers. Even at 24 generations I dont get 100 percent match. How can I be a match at j z627 within a thousand years with some thats for example

    Z585 J-Z585 >J-Z615 >J-Z2507 > J-Z597 > J-Z638 >J-Z1296>J-Z1297>J-Z8421 > J-Z1295> J-Z8421> J-Z631 >J-Z1043> J-Y26712>J-Z8424> J-Z8429> J-Z39653J > CTS11760 >J-Y81358

    You know what the why str match maker gives me at y 12?
    91 percent match even at 24 generations average thats 600 years ago. We dont have a common ancestor for 600 years. Com on dude. Its 5400 years ybp back in georgia times.
    The sardinians were dropped off there at sardinia after 5400 which is why they have

    J-Y15058 at 2400bc. It was kura axes culture that was absorbed by phonecians near the end of its collapse at 2000BC. If not it was carians or leleges

    Theres no basal jz600 mainland samples. Its all sardinian and a turk.
    Except georgians and armenians.

    Honestly theres a better chance its straight from georgian or armenian from recently within 1000 years ago than mainland european clade

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    ,,,

    J2-L283 in most part extended to Sardinia probably thru Italy and Balkans in Illyrian/Italic-Roman time, and your clade colonised Caribbean Sea with Spanish colonies in 16 and 17 century.

    There is almost no chance there was J2-L283 in Caribbean Sea prior to Spanish colonies...

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    Just want to remind or inform everyone that the fast majority of Levanites/Arabs in South America have adopted Spanish lastnames. From my experience the majority are Lebanese/Syrians/Egyptians.

    So that L283 is most likely one of them and not a Spaniard.

    Mind you that many of what we call Latina beauties are actually Lebanese girls with Euro and local admix.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik View Post
    Just want to remind or inform everyone that the fast majority of Levanites/Arabs in South America have adopted Spanish lastnames. From my experience the majority are Lebanese/Syrians/Egyptians.

    So that L283 is most likely one of them and not a Spaniard.

    Mind you that many of what we call Latina beauties are actually Lebanese girls with Euro and local admix.

    Even if this is true i don't see what J2-L283 has to do with Levantines or Arabs as its spread with Indo-Europeans, particularly in Bronze Age.
    It has TMRCA 5400 ybp and its dispersed among all European countries, even if you find it in Levant, it is for sure European expansion, often neglectable in MENA countries in sense of diversity or distribution percentage.

    L283 has best and probably only chance to reach Caribbean Sea with Spanish European colonists of probably Balkan Italian or Spanish origin.


    It peaks at Albanians and it has high diversity there. At least 4 or 5 branches with TMRCA 4400 ybp.


    So you are obviously wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    Even if this is true i don't see what J2-L283 has to do with Levantines or Arabs as its spread with Indo-Europeans, particularly in Bronze Age.
    It has TMRCA 5400 ybp and its dispersed among all European countries, even if you find it in Levant, it is for sure European expansion, often neglectable in MENA countries in sense of diversity or distribution percentage.

    L283 has best and probably only chance to reach Caribbean Sea with Spanish European colonists of probably Balkan Italian or Spanish origin.


    It peaks at Albanians and it has high diversity there. At least 4 or 5 branches with TMRCA 4400 ybp.


    So you are obviously wrong.
    So you obviously didn't understand anything I said.

    The history of L283 was completely unnecessary. Nobody asked you. I'm aware of L283 being an Early IE and your M205 being a newcomer with nostalgia of your ancestral lands.

    But...again, before someone else gets confused by your comment, there's MANY of those Latinos who are actually of Lebanese origin but with Spanish lastnames. Period!

    If Wanderer is more related to them than to Spaniards or Albanians, then his ancestors were some of those Arabs.

  21. #346
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik View Post
    So you obviously didn't understand anything I said.
    I understood that you are completely wrong, and as usually talking nonsense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nik View Post
    The history of L283 was completely unnecessary.
    It was necessary because you obviously didn't understand and everything you said was wrong.


    Quote Originally Posted by Nik View Post
    Nobody asked you.
    You should ask and learn, rather then be arrogant and prepotent as usual, while your knowledge genetic and history wise is on low level.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nik View Post
    I'm aware of L283 being an Early IE and your M205 being a newcomer with nostalgia of your ancestral lands.
    M205 is for sure not "newcomer". But rather ancient Mediterranean one. I dont see where are you going with this newcomer thing?


    Quote Originally Posted by Nik View Post
    But...again, before someone else gets confused by your comment, there's MANY of those Latinos who are actually of Lebanese origin but with Spanish lastnames. Period!
    This is totally irrelevant for anything we talked about here. You just jumped in with this stupid comment like it has anything with what was debated about here or with L283 in fact.



    Quote Originally Posted by Nik View Post
    If Wanderer is more related to them than to Spaniards or Albanians, then his ancestors were some of those Arabs.
    No he does not and he is not more related to them, where did you get this from? You are lying again. He has no matches at Middle Easterners. If you read better you would not spit these stupidities as usual.




    I know that you were claiming ultimate stupidities before only to counter me or say against whatever i say, so its stupid to pretend like you know anything about J2, L283, M205 or this what are we debating here.

    You dont know even about E-v13..

    Im not letting your personal issues and problems infect this thread, so from now on you are ignored.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik View Post
    Just want to remind or inform everyone that the fast majority of Levanites/Arabs in South America have adopted Spanish lastnames. From my experience the majority are Lebanese/Syrians/Egyptians.

    So that L283 is most likely one of them and not a Spaniard.

    Mind you that many of what we call Latina beauties are actually Lebanese girls with Euro and local admix.
    Not true. I'm from Brazil, the country with the largest number of descendants of Lebanese and Syrian immigrants in the Americas. There are countless Arab surnames in Brazil sometimes adapted to Portuguese phonology: Sarquis, Otoch, Kerbage, Jereissati, Haddad, Abdala, Sadi, Kamel, Mansur, Temer, Alckmin, Maluf, Jatene, Hoauiss, Chacra, Damous, Amin, Kassab, Damous, tc. What happens is simply that the Lebanese/Syrian descendants did not remain in closed, endogamous communities, and instead mixed extensively with the local population who had mostly Iberian surnames, so many of the descendants of Arabs also have Iberian surnames (or even only non-Arab surnames given the succession of generations,and that not all surnames are passed on to the next one) because they are in fact not just descendants of Arabs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik View Post
    If Wanderer is more related to them than to Spaniards or Albanians, then his ancestors were some of those Arabs.
    So far, he isn’t.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Not true. I'm from Brazil, the country with the largest number of descendants of Lebanese and Syrian immigrants in the Americas. There are countless Arab surnames in Brazil sometimes adapted to Portuguese phonology: Sarquis, Otoch, Kerbage, Jereissati, Haddad, Abdala, Sadi, Kamel, Mansur, Temer, Alckmin, Maluf, Jatene, Hoauiss, Chacra, Damous, Amin, Kassab, Damous, tc. What happens is simply that the Lebanese/Syrian descendants did not remain in closed, endogamous communities, and instead mixed extensively with the local population who had mostly Iberian surnames, so many of the descendants of Arabs also have Iberian surnames (or even only non-Arab surnames given the succession of generations,and that not all surnames are passed on to the next one) because they are in fact not just descendants of Arabs.
    Maybe in brazil. They did this with french surnames sometimes. To make them sound more spanish. But with people like lebanese names I would imagine they are more likey to change the surname. They might change the name to blend in a bit better.

    Especially if its early in spanish history because of the spanish reconquista ect, they probably didnt like muslims ect.
    But sometimes they may not take their fathers surnames and take their mothers instead.

    I have an ancestor that dropped his fathers name and kept his mothers name. His mothers name was also passed down to his children instead.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Not true. I'm from Brazil, the country with the largest number of descendants of Lebanese and Syrian immigrants in the Americas. There are countless Arab surnames in Brazil sometimes adapted to Portuguese phonology: Sarquis, Otoch, Kerbage, Jereissati, Haddad, Abdala, Sadi, Kamel, Mansur, Temer, Alckmin, Maluf, Jatene, Hoauiss, Chacra, Damous, Amin, Kassab, Damous, tc. What happens is simply that the Lebanese/Syrian descendants did not remain in closed, endogamous communities, and instead mixed extensively with the local population who had mostly Iberian surnames, so many of the descendants of Arabs also have Iberian surnames (or even only non-Arab surnames given the succession of generations,and that not all surnames are passed on to the next one) because they are in fact not just descendants of Arabs.
    Do some research then. There's plenty of Latinos with Arab origins (obviously mixed) who have Spanish lastnames.

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