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Thread: J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

  1. #351
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    In Brazil the descendants of Syrian-Lebanese Arabs, mixed or not, with Iberians, have names and surnames phonetically adapted to Portuguese. In Brazil there is the largest Syrian-Lebanese diaspora in the Americas. The mayor of my hometown, Belo Horizonte, is a Syrian-Lebanese descendant named Elias Kalil.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik View Post
    Do some research then. There's plenty of Latinos with Arab origins (obviously mixed) who have Spanish lastnames.
    Distant "Arab" (Levantine/North African) ancestry mainly brought in small amounts by Iberians does not count. Actual ethnic Arab migration to Latin America happened mostly after the 1880s and especially in the 1910s and 1920s. It's a "recent" genetic inflow in most of Latin America, the surnames are still there (do you know Menem, former president of Argentina? Menem is a Lebanese surname. Carlos Slim, the Mexican billionaire? Lebanese surname).

    Also, it is just self-evident that many mixed people of Arab origins may have Spanish last names for the obvious reason that they are mixed and, therefore, they also owe much of their family history to non-Arab people, isn't it? Or would you think they would retain only their Arab surname ? It is certain that some families of Arab origin changed their surname, but it wasn't the usual practice in most places.

    By the way, it seems some of you ignore the history of Arab immigration to Latin America: in fact the vast majority of them up to the 1960s were Arab Christians, not Muslims. They are among the most successful diasporas in Latin America and blended in extremely well, and that's why most of them are now mixed, so obviously many of them have non-Arab surnames (with or without their original Arab surnames, since usually only men's surnames were passed on).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Duarte View Post
    In Brazil the descendants of Syrian-Lebanese Arabs, mixed or not, with Iberians, have names and surnames phonetically adapted to Portuguese. In Brazil there is the largest Syrian-Lebanese diaspora in the Americas. The mayor of my hometown, Belo Horizonte, is a Syrian-Lebanese descendant named Elias Kalil.
    Exactly, Duarte. Maybe some Latin American nation had a different history with its Syrian/Lebanese diaspora, but at least in Brazil, Mexico and Argentina things were really different, and Syrian/Lebanese surnames are not only preserved, but sometimes even proudly showed off, since the population of (today mostly very mixed) Arab descent is among the wealthiest and most politically influential in many places. The famous names that aren't just are so numerous that I can't even remember them all. Just now I was reminded of Salma Hayek (Mexico) and Shakira Mebarak (Colombia).

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    0 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    I would advice to ignore user Nik as obviously kid is trøll and sadly represents minority of Albanian members with very vulgar behavior.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Formed 9600 ybp, TMRCA 5400 ybp.

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-L283/











    Just to compare with J2-M205, since one group was spread with IE languages and another one with Semitic and they are both J2b-M102+, but separation time 16 000 ybp.

    Formed 15800 ybp, TMRCA 5700 ybp.

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-M205/



  6. #356
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik View Post
    Do some research then. There's plenty of Latinos with Arab origins (obviously mixed) who have Spanish lastnames.
    I take back the vast majority part since there's no way to prove it (although you might be right about most of them) but I stick to "plenty of Arabs with Spanish lastnames".

    Carlos Roberto Flores Facussé
    José Antonio Meade Kuribreña
    Gaspar Henaine Pérez
    Jaime Sabines Gutiérrez
    Mário Jorge Lobo Zagallo
    Antonio Saca
    Paulina Vega
    Carlos Slim Helú
    Eduardo Falú
    Basilio Lami Dozo
    Carlos Balá
    Elias Bazzi
    Jorge Antonio
    Alfredo Avelín
    Juliana Paes
    João Bosco
    Rafael Leitão
    Fernando Gabeira
    Miguel Littin
    Nicolás Massú
    Jeff Becerra

    How can one possibly know that these people here are of Arab descent?

    Trojet simply said there was someone with a Spanish sounding lastname, so he could be anything.

    To have a better idea of Wanderer's ancestor we need:
    1- The full name (all 4 or 5 of them) of his closest match
    2- His second and third matches

    Trojet or any of us could be easily fooled by Javier Gutierrez but if we get a Javier Khalil Gutierrez Hayek then we'd know for sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    Formed 9600 ybp, TMRCA 5400 ybp.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post


    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-L283/


    Just to compare with J2-M205, since one group was spread with IE languages and another one with Semitic and they are both J2b-M102+, but separation time 16 000 ybp.

    Formed 15800 ybp, TMRCA 5700 ybp.

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-M205/

    Sure, we'll compare. Ok now, dismissed!

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nik View Post
    I take back the vast majority part since there's no way to prove it
    At least you are starting to realise the nonsense you said, that is what we call progress : )





    Quote Originally Posted by Nik View Post
    Trojet simply said there was someone with a Spanish sounding lastname, so he could be anything.

    Yes he could technically be some arabicised European but that is something else, and then as such spread to Carrebean Sea. But this is hypothesis is without any proofs or bases. Then why Levantine? You could in the same way say he could of been Chinese or Sub-Saharan African prior to expanding to Carrebean Sea, well yea, technically he could be anything, , but his more further European origin is undoubtful with its peaks in Balkan among Albanians.
    But also well represented in Italy, Spain, Portugal.




    Quote Originally Posted by Nik View Post
    To have a better idea of Wanderer's ancestor we need:
    1- The full name (all 4 or 5 of them) of his closest match
    2- His second and third matches
    Whatever his matches are today, there is no doubt they were Europeans before, probably Balkan-Italy-Spain relation.





    Quote Originally Posted by Nik View Post
    Sure, we'll compare. Ok now, dismissed!

    Listen kid, start be respectful or i will pull your unrespectful ears so much that you will cry.


    And yes, compare and learn, ancient DNA map is probably best proof of some haplogroup origin. Especially when TMRCA is about similar time with its ancient DNA finds, like its case in both J2-M205 and J2-L283.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    Listen kid, start be respectful or i will pull your unrespectful ears so much that you will cry.
    Yes, please. I'm only interested in this part. I invited you before to exchange info and phone numbers and meet.

    Perhaps it seems too peaceful and childish here but I'll do my best to insult you in the worst possible way and get you really fired up to meet me and pull my ears.

    You can't see from a forum profile what's inside my mind and what we want to do to Osmanlis

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik View Post
    Yes, please. I'm only interested in this part. I invited you before to exchange info and phone numbers and meet.

    Perhaps it seems too peaceful and childish here but I'll do my best to insult you in the worst possible way and get you really fired up to meet me and pull my ears.

    You can't see from a forum profile what's inside my mind and what we want to do to Osmanlis


    This is typical Ashkali behaviour, its pretty clear where you come from.

    The only one who should be insulted by your vulgar behavior is your parents, because as obviously they made you and failed in any further education or manner teaching their child.
    Worst of all is they even have to pay your internet bill

    Don't bother me with low iq ideas anymore, i dont have time for North Albanian underaged Gabel that is trying to be tough on internet.


    BTW do whatever you want to Osmanlis lol, 80 % of Albanians are Muslims, and almost every second Ottoman prime minister was Albanian starting with Bayezid Pasha in 1413

    You are 500 years Ottoman yourself, with identity crisis And confusion that you can thank to extreme communist regime.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    At least you are starting to realise the nonsense you said, that is what we call progress : )








    Yes he could technically be some arabicised European but that is something else, and then as such spread to Carrebean Sea. But this is hypothesis is without any proofs or bases. Then why Levantine? You could in the same way say he could of been Chinese or Sub-Saharan African prior to expanding to Carrebean Sea, well yea, technically he could be anything, , but his more further European origin is undoubtful with its peaks in Balkan among Albanians.
    But also well represented in Italy, Spain, Portugal.






    Whatever his matches are today, there is no doubt they were Europeans before, probably Balkan-Italy-Spain relation.








    Listen kid, start be respectful or i will pull your unrespectful ears so much that you will cry.


    And yes, compare and learn, ancient DNA map is probably best proof of some haplogroup origin. Especially when TMRCA is about similar time with its ancient DNA finds, like its case in both J2-M205 and J2-L283.
    It wouldn't be ssa or chinese because JL283 is caucus origin from Georgia armenia region. We already know this. But we have levantine origin of a spefic basal J-L283 branch and kura axes culture is a culture that inhibited the areas of J L283.

  11. #361
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    It wouldn't be ssa or chinese because JL283 is caucus origin from Georgia armenia region. We already know this. But we have levantine origin of a spefic basal J-L283 branch and kura axes culture is a culture that inhibited the areas of J L283.
    This was only technically and theoretically speaking, you were already explained things by Trojet. You should listen to him, you two have same haplogroup and he is J2-M172 project admin.

    Saying thanks would not hurt you. You cant always contradict people with whatever comes to your mind. Especially because your knowledge is on beginner stage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik View Post
    Yes, please. I'm only interested in this part. I invited you before to exchange info and phone numbers and meet.

    Perhaps it seems too peaceful and childish here but I'll do my best to insult you in the worst possible way and get you really fired up to meet me and pull my ears.

    You can't see from a forum profile what's inside my mind and what we want to do to Osmanlis
    There was this story about you losing it after some member of the Balkanforum found out your phone number and called you. Why would you now offer people to exchange numbers?

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    With new results overview of some "basal" Balkan J-Z631's:

    J-Z631>Y155546 Vlore, Albania
    J-Z631>Y144394 Vlore, Albania
    J-Z631>Z1043>BY38004 Vojvodina (Serb ?)
    J-Z631>Z1043>FGC55768 Greek, Phocis
    J-Y98609* Bosniak, Sandzak
    J-Z1043* (Z8424-) Croat
    J-Z631*/Z1043* Greek/Thaci-Korbi Albania/Basarabi Romania


    So plenty of basal Z631 in Western Balkans.

  14. #364
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArdianTH View Post
    There was this story about you losing it after some member of the Balkanforum found out your phone number and called you. Why would you now offer people to exchange numbers?
    I'm not a member on any other forum besides this. I used to visit anthrogenica from time to time for info but that's it. You got me confused.

    And I had never heard of Balkanforum before.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Or perhaps you can't read. This is what I wrote on the J2 page:

    As a result, both the Illyrians and the Mycenaeans (and possibly the Albanians) would be descended from Middle to Late Bronze Age Steppe migrants to the Southeast Europe, in a migration that was particularly rich in J2b lineages from the Middle Volga region.

    The Albanian (and Kosovar) population is one of the most homogeneous in Europe in term of shared recent ancestry according to Ralph & Coop 2013. This means that the Albanians expanded from a very small population relatively recently, which explains why strong founder effects completely reshaped the Y-DNA frequencies. That is how E-V13 and J2b became to dominant among Albanians and Kosovars. That expansion probably took place during the Middle Ages, so based on the current data it is impossible to know whether E-V13 and J2b entered the Albanian gene pool during the Bronze Age, the Iron Age, the Classical Antiquity, or even the Middle Ages. Hence my reserve on the subject.
    that's true.present day Albania and Kosovo couldn't have had more than 100 000 people circa 1500s after the ottoman conquest and the blood path that followed.
    100 000 being very very generous as the ottoman censuses in the Albanian pashaliks(carried out regionally from the Turkalbanians who were the ruling class)300 years later report close to 200 000 population

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Parapolitikos View Post
    that's true.present day Albania and Kosovo couldn't have had more than 100 000 people circa 1500s after the ottoman conquest and the blood path that followed.
    100 000 being very very generous as the ottoman censuses in the Albanian pashaliks(carried out regionally from the Turkalbanians who were the ruling class)300 years later report close to 200 000 population
    I think you are wrong and also you are an uneducated person. Probably 100.000-150.000 Albanians lived at that time(circa 1500s) only in Peloponnese, let alone other regions of Greece and of course Albania.
    And stop using these derogatory names products of your filthy chauvinistic idologie. The most easy thing is to mock and laugh the greeks and to ridicule your attempts to invent history, but it is supposed that we are here to discuss, right?
    Last edited by LABERIA; 11-07-19 at 10:45.
    17 Dec.
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    Now the Council's letters seem to imply (words quoted) that the King will keep no strangers save the Albanoys.

    Cales, 17 Dec. 1545. Signed.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Fustan View Post
    This haplogroup is mostly found among Albanians, and seems to be most diverse there.
    J2b2-L283 was also found in Bronze Age croatia (and it's funny Macaiamo doesn't mention Albanians on the J2b2 page on Eupedia, there seems to be a strong bias on his part for some strange reason).

    Wondering if any non-albanians have this haplogroup and if so, where you're from.
    J2b2a1-L283 origins by diversity and subgroups with focus on Jewish lineages

    https://j2-m172.info/2015/10/j2b2a1-...wish-lineages/

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    0 out of 11 members found this post helpful.
    Does anybody noticed that map of frequency J2b2-L283 perfectly corresponds to migration of Bulgars? Regions where J2b2-L283 is most abundant correspond to ancient regions of Volga Bulgaria and Kutmichevitsa. In 670 Bulgar khan Kuber led migration of more than 100.000 people to Balkan. Kutmichevitsa later become one of most important centers of Bulgarian Empire.Since J2b2-L283 is very low in other Balkan nations compared with Albanians. I assume that high majority of J2b2-L283 originated from Bulgars. However after Bulgars migration to Balkan, there were migrations of other Pontic–Caspian steppe people to Balkans. Remains of Pechenegs were settled by force in Balkan. And after Pechenegs next migrants were Cumans. Most probably all three groups together Bulgars, Pechenegs and Cumans were significant contributors of spreading J2b2-L283 on Balkan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by novakovich View Post
    Does anybody noticed that map of frequency J2b2-L283 perfectly corresponds to migration of Bulgars? Regions where J2b2-L283 is most abundant correspond to ancient regions of Volga Bulgaria and Kutmichevitsa. In 670 Bulgar khan Kuber led migration of more than 100.000 people to Balkan. Kutmichevitsa later become one of most important centers of Bulgarian Empire.Since J2b2-L283 is very low in other Balkan nations compared with Albanians. I assume that high majority of J2b2-L283 originated from Bulgars. However after Bulgars migration to Balkan, there were migrations of other Pontic–Caspian steppe people to Balkans. Remains of Pechenegs were settled by force in Balkan. And after Pechenegs next migrants were Cumans. Most probably all three groups together Bulgars, Pechenegs and Cumans were significant contributors of spreading J2b2-L283 on Balkan.
    Thats absolutely wrong and J2b2-L283 distribution is literally the opposite of bulgar presence in Albania. j2b2-l283 is most concentrated in north-west Albanians, highland clans. Its least present in south-east Albanians around Ohrid, which is where the Bulgarian presence and influence was highest, and the centre of Kutmichevitsa. Its around Ohrid here that we find the highest I2a-Slav in Albanians of any other Albanian region.
    "As we have already stressed, the mass evacuation of the Albanians from their triangle is the only effective course we can take. In order to relocate a whole people, the first prerequisite is the creation of a suitable psychosis. This can be done in various ways." - Vaso Cubrilovic

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Thats absolutely wrong and J2b2-L283 distribution is literally the opposite of bulgar presence in Albania. j2b2-l283 is most concentrated in north-west Albanians, highland clans. Its least present in south-east Albanians around Ohrid, which is where the Bulgarian presence and influence was highest, and the centre of Kutmichevitsa. Its around Ohrid here that we find the highest I2a-Slav in Albanians of any other Albanian region.
    And also, let's remind this Serb that J2b2-L283 was found in the West Balkans, radiocarbon dated at ~3600 ybp. Yet, he is suggesting it came only in the last 1400 years with the Bulgars and such. Not only is he embarrassing himself in an international forum, he is also showing his true colors...
    Last edited by Trojet; 02-08-19 at 15:09.
    Y-DNA: J-L283
    Maternal Y-DNA: E-V13

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    I din't say that J2b2-L283 came with Bulgars only and exclusively to Balkan. There were many different waves of migrations from Pontic–Caspian steppe to and through Balkan, including Indo-European migrations during the time. There must be good reason why J2b2-L283 in Albanians is much more abundant than in their Balkan neighbors. My assumption is that most probably this could be contribution of arrivals of Bulgars, Pechenegs and Cumans. Since there were later several Bulgars rebellion around Kutmichevitsa against Byzantines it is obvious that those people lived there in significant number. What is Albanian view about those people? Even if they assimilated they must left genetic traces.

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    Quote Originally Posted by novakovich View Post
    I din't say that J2b2-L283 came with Bulgars only and exclusively to Balkan. There were many different waves of migrations from Pontic–Caspian steppe to and through Balkan, including Indo-European migrations during the time. There must be good reason why J2b2-L283 in Albanians is much more abundant than in their Balkan neighbors. My assumption is that most probably this could be contribution of arrivals of Bulgars, Pechenegs and Cumans. Since there were later several Bulgars rebellion around Kutmichevitsa against Byzantines it is obvious that those people lived there in significant number. What is Albanian view about those people? Even if they assimilated they must left genetic traces.
    Albanians have the lowest Turkic/Mongoloid admixture of the entire Balkans, no sign of these admixtures in autosomal or yDNA. Only the nations around us absorbed some of it.


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    3 out of 4 members found this post helpful.
    ....or brought it

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    There is nothing wrong with submitted map. It is logical and it is easy to estimate that as you go further from Mongolian grassland Turkic genetic contribution will decline. From this map is obvious that Turkic genetic contribution is low in Pontic–Caspian steppe. Only exception is this part south of Volga where Kalmyks settled. Pontic–Caspian steppe was home of Scythians for millenniums. We know they they were mostly R1b. J2b2 entered Pontic–Caspian steppe from Asia long time ago. After that J2b2 spread together with R1b in many different migration waves. After Hunic invasion Scythians were exposed to turkification. So they were exposed to cultural assimilation (language replacement). Those non assimilated stayed as Alans. Mongol invasion wiped out both Cumans and Alans from Pontic–Caspian steppe ending genetic domination of R1b there. According to historical sources Cumans were even described as blond and Caucasian looking. There are no reason why we should not consider that absolute majority of middle age Turkic speaking migrants from Pontic–Caspian steppe to Balkan were actually assimilated Scythians and mainly carriers of R1b+J2b2.

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    0 out of 4 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fatherland View Post
    Albanians have the lowest Turkic/Mongoloid admixture of the entire Balkans, no sign of these admixtures in autosomal or yDNA. Only the nations around us absorbed some of it.


    ???????

    ha? since when?

    Do you believe that you post?

    What about Altaic component? ??? ????

    Can you tell us which European countries have most?
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

    When there is no shame
    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

    Εχε υπομονη Ηρωα
    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

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