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Thread: J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

  1. #376
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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by novakovich View Post
    There is nothing wrong with submitted map. It is logical and it is easy to estimate that as you go further from Mongolian grassland Turkic genetic contribution will decline. From this map is obvious that Turkic genetic contribution is low in Pontic–Caspian steppe. Only exception is this part south of Volga where Kalmyks settled. Pontic–Caspian steppe was home of Scythians for millenniums. We know they they were mostly R1b. J2b2 entered Pontic–Caspian steppe from Asia long time ago. After that J2b2 spread together with R1b in many different migration waves. After Hunic invasion Scythians were exposed to turkification. So they were exposed to cultural assimilation (language replacement). Those non assimilated stayed as Alans. Mongol invasion wiped out both Cumans and Alans from Pontic–Caspian steppe ending genetic domination of R1b there. According to historical sources Cumans were even described as blond and Caucasian looking. There are no reason why we should not consider that absolute majority of middle age Turkic speaking migrants from Pontic–Caspian steppe to Balkan were actually assimilated Scythians and mainly carriers of R1b+J2b2.
    We already saw with huns and avar paper that their typical groups are Q, N, and even a lot of I2a. The only J2 that was found was J2a, which is found more in Greeks. Obvious troIling is obvious.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    We already saw with huns and avar paper that their typical groups are Q, N, and even a lot of I2a. The only J2 that was found was J2a, which is found more in Greeks. Obvious troIling is obvious.
    About I2a: not Huns nor Avars but Hungarians mixed with Slavs.
    Neopisivo

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wonomyro View Post
    Not Huns nor Avars but Hungarians mixed with Slavs (I2a, R1a).
    "Y-chromosome haplogroups from Hun, Avar and conquering Hungarian period nomadic people of theCarpathian Basin"

    "Most individuals buried with rich grave goods show Mongoloid characters indicating innerAsian origin of the Avar elite, which is also supported by their artifact types, titles (e.g. khagan) and institutionsrecognized to be derived from Inner Asian Rourans"

    "The Avar age remains are anthropologically extremelyheterogeneous, with considerable proportion of Mongoloid and Europo-Monoloid elements reaching 20-30%"

    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/bior...97997.full.pdf

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    0 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Well, you have forgotten group C. Anyway, if you have time please check genetics of Gagauz. Those are real descendants of Bulgars.

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    0 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Albanians of Illyrian ancestry should be mostly R1B clades, not J2.
    Albanians have highest R1B percentage from Eastern Europe.
    Original Ilyrian language has clearly change, under the influence of Dacians, Thracians, Goths and Slavs and the original Illyrian language should have been from Romance-Celtic group of languages, not a Satem language,as Albanian is currently.
    The R1B from Eupedia, given for Albanians, is not the correct one.
    The actual percentage of R1B in Albania is 23%.
    Also, Illyrians should have had E-V13.
    This E-V13 and R1B should have been shared between Ilyrians and SE Celtic tribes.
    J2 should be from Dacians,Thracians,Greeks.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    Albanians of Illyrian ancestry should be mostly R1B clades, not J2.
    Albanians have highest R1B percentage from Eastern Europe.
    Albanian language has clearly change, under the influence of Dacians, Thracians, Goths and Slavs and the original Illyrian language should have been from Romance-Celtic group of languages, not a Satem language,as Albanian is currently.
    The R1B from Eupedia, given for Albanians, is not the correct one.
    The actual percentage of R1B in Albania is 23%.
    Also, Illyrians should have had E-V13.
    This E-V13 and R1B should have been shared between Ilyrians and SE Celtic tribes.
    J2 should be from Dacians,Thracians,Greeks.
    Can you give some examples of Dacian influence on Albanian language? Thanks in advance.
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    5 out of 5 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by novakovich View Post
    There must be good reason why J2b2-L283 in Albanians is much more abundant than in their Balkan neighbors.
    That reason is because Albanians are in good part descended of Illyrians. Descendants of local antiquity groups logically should differ from those who are certainly not linguistically Illyrian and that is the case..


    Quote Originally Posted by novakovich View Post
    My assumption is that most probably this could be contribution of arrivals of Bulgars, Pechenegs and Cumans.
    The bulk of modern eastern J-L283 are under J-Y12007 and thus far there is no evidence to suggest any of these participated in some back-migration to the Balkans.


    Quote Originally Posted by novakovich View Post
    Pontic–Caspian steppe was home of Scythians for millenniums.
    No it wasn't.. proto-Scythians in the most narrow sense (dominantly clades of R-Z93) were descended from Central Asia/Altai, and they established dominance in the Pontic Steppe in 7th/6th century which lasted for about 3 centuries, and last of their remnants lasted for two more centuries in Crimea primarily.


    Quote Originally Posted by novakovich View Post
    We know they they were mostly R1b.
    No they were not. Bunch of "R1b calls" in the study of Scythians from Moldova were completely wrong. R-Z93 was dominant as always. Some R1b's were R-Z2103 (with Balkan autosomal profile) etc.



    Quote Originally Posted by novakovich View Post
    After Hunic invasion Scythians were exposed to turkification.

    There were no "Scythians" at the time of Hunnic invasions for five centuries.. There were Sarmato-Alans, and great many of those were "hunnified" indeed.



    Quote Originally Posted by novakovich View Post
    Mongol invasion wiped out both Cumans and Alans from Pontic–Caspian steppe ending genetic domination of R1b there.
    There was no "R1b domination" on the from Pontic–Caspian steppe since Srubnaya and other R1a heavy groups pushed the Yamnaya remnants. Some of these R-Z2103 remnants subsequently survived in the Steppe as Sarmatians etc.



    Quote Originally Posted by novakovich View Post
    According to historical sources Cumans were even described as blond and Caucasian looking.

    There was a variation among them from the finds. More Eastern groups had more Asian ancestry, Western ones less.. The proto-Cuman R-M73 most likely cannot be tied to "blonde" reports, but certain R-Z93 who joined them might..


    Quote Originally Posted by novakovich View Post
    There are no reason why we should not consider that absolute majority of middle age Turkic speaking migrants from Pontic–Caspian steppe to Balkan were actually assimilated Scythians and mainly carriers of R1b+J2b2.
    According to some hard genetic evidence, original Cumans indeed had lots of R1b, but this was central Asian R-M73 which has nothing to do with Scythians or even IE's.



    Quote Originally Posted by novakovich View Post
    Anyway, if you have time please check genetics of Gagauz. Those are real descendants of Bulgars.
    I have and they might show few "Seljuk" genetic links (some G-M201 haplotypes), as for Bolgars, not so likely. There was a small Caucasian (G-L293) link that might fit into that or some other group, and some other potential links.
    They had interestingly one R-M269 with dys393=12 and dys392=11, most likely he is one of those R-Z2705 392=11 that I haven't noticed before.
    Only 7 STR's in that study so very hard to work with it.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Nearly got a brain aneurysm reading novakovich posts.

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    2 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    Nearly got a brain aneurysm reading novakovich posts.
    I see he has accumulated 23 out of 23 negative votes in just three posts. That must be a record
    Y-DNA: J-L283
    Maternal Y-DNA: E-V13

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    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    Albanians of Illyrian ancestry should be mostly R1B clades, not J2.
    Albanians have highest R1B percentage from Eastern Europe.
    Original Ilyrian language has clearly change, under the influence of Dacians, Thracians, Goths and Slavs and the original Illyrian language should have been from Romance-Celtic group of languages, not a Satem language,as Albanian is currently.
    The R1B from Eupedia, given for Albanians, is not the correct one.
    The actual percentage of R1B in Albania is 23%.
    Also, Illyrians should have had E-V13.
    This E-V13 and R1B should have been shared between Ilyrians and SE Celtic tribes.
    J2 should be from Dacians,Thracians,Greeks.
    J2b2 is from Illyrians.
    J2a1 is from Greeks or others.

    There is like 26000 years split between these two clades(J2a1 & J2b2). Way before any of these populations existed, haha.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    "Y-chromosome haplogroups from Hun, Avar and conquering Hungarian period nomadic people of theCarpathian Basin" "Most individuals buried with rich grave goods show Mongoloid characters indicating innerAsian origin of the Avar elite, which is also supported by their artifact types, titles (e.g. khagan) and institutionsrecognized to be derived from Inner Asian Rourans" "The Avar age remains are anthropologically extremelyheterogeneous, with considerable proportion of Mongoloid and Europo-Monoloid elements reaching 20-30%" https://www.biorxiv.org/content/bior...97997.full.pdf
    Ok, but there are no I2a samples documented for Avars and Huns.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    I see he has accumulated 23 out of 23 negative votes in just three posts. That must be a record
    For real hahaha

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    Just for curiosity, what is the real percentage of R1B in Albanians from Kosovo, in Gheghs Albanians and in Tosk Albanians?

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    2 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fatherland View Post
    J2b2 is from Illyrians.
    J2a1 is from Greeks or others.

    There is like 26000 years split between these two clades(J2a1 & J2b2). Way before any of these populations existed, haha.
    How J2b2 and J2a1 could be so ancient, from 26k years ago?
    Neither Greeks, neither Illyrians existed 26k years ago.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    Just for curiosity, what is the real percentage of R1B in Albanians from Kosovo, in Gheghs Albanians and in Tosk Albanians?

    Check out: http://www.gjenetika.com/statistikat/.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ownstyler View Post
    Indeed that J2b-L283 is typical to Albanians, from Europe populations.
    I seen Kosovars got 23% R1B-M269 and that other Albanians got 26.5% (Maqedoni (Gjithsej 34)).
    Also, Kosovars got 8.3% I1 so they clearly mixed with some Germanic people that came from Scandinavia.
    I am not sure that Illyrians are more than 2000 BC ancient, in Balkans.
    They should have come with the Celtic tribes (the Illyrians).
    Fatherland actually scores some similarity to Scottish people :) .
    Who came first in Balkans, Thracians or Illyrians, that, I have no idea.
    Acording to Maciamo, R1B came latest in Europe, while I came first :) .
    R1A came before R1B in Europe, but not so early, maybe 2000 years before R1B.
    There are also ex-Yugos and Romanians that are scoring some similarity with Welsh/South English people, but not too much (Romanians, up to 17% from what I seen. Ex Yugos, might score more).

    So, J2b2-L283 might have been in Balkans before Illyrians and E-V13, might also have been in Balkans,before Illyrians came there.
    Illyrians might have been actually mostly R1B-M269 and conquered the E-V13 and J2b2-L283 Balkanites.

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    Also, the proto-Celtic-Latin-Illyrian language might have not formed in Europe, but in Asia.
    Later, it should have split in proto-Celtic-Illyrian and proto-Latin.
    Later, proto-Celtic-Illyrian split in Illyrian and proto-Celtic. Proto-Celtic should be at least 5000 years ancient.
    So, maybe proto-Celtic-Illyrians came in Balkans like 3000 BC and here, we have a split, having SE Europe Celts appearing and Illyrians.
    Later, a part of SE Europe Celts migrated NW and gave Hallstat Celts.
    This migration was through the land of Slovenia.
    It seems a part of Hallstatt Celts migrated through North Germany and Netherlands to Britain and Ireland and gave those Insular Celts.
    While a part of Balkan Celts migrated to France and Iberia and gave those Celts.
    As a fun thing, I2-din and I2a1b "Disles" that is found at 6-8% percent in Ireland are supporting the theory that Celts came in Europe as proto-Illyrian-Celts, through Balkans :) .
    Sure, Brits and French would not accept that the Celtic migration came in Europe via Balkans, but this is how it seems it actually happened.
    Oh, forgot to add, Irish and Scottish autosomal DNA are same, so Fatherland scoring similarity to Scotts/Irish autosomal DNA is extra proof that Celts came in Europe through Balkans :) .
    I am just saying.

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    Гагаузите принадлежат към Y-DNA гаплогрупи I2 (23,6%), R1a (19,1%), G (13,5%), R1b (12,4%), E1b1b1a (11,1%), J2 (5,6%) и N (2,2%). Филогенетичният анализ на Y-DNA показва най-тясната връзка между гагаузите и Bulgarians, Macedonians, Serbs and other Balkan peoples.

    Bulgarian DNA Project - Male Straight Line (Y-Chromosome Analysis) shows approximately the following picture:

    1) The highest percentage of Bulgarians are from haplogroup I- from 20 to 26%, of which approximately 18% are from subgroup I2a2 Dinaric, 5% are from subgroup I1, 1.5% are from I2b1, 0.5% I2b2 and 0.5% are from subgroup I2c;


    2) haplogroup E ranks second - from 19 to 21.5%, of which approximately 20% are from subgroup E1b1b1a2 (M78-V13, alpha cluster) and 1.5% are from E1b1b1c * (M123 *);


    3) haplogroup J is the third most prevalent group among Bulgarians - from 11 to 15%, with subgroups J1 (M267) - 3%, J2 (M172) - 11% of which 5% are from subgroup J2b * (M102 *), called as early as the old nomenclature J2e1, 4.3% are from J2a * (M410 *) and the rest are from J2a1b * (M67 *) and J2a1b1 (M92);
    4) haplogroup R with subgroups R1a1- from 12 to 17.5% and R1b1a2- about 12-13%;
    5) haplogroup G2 mainly with subgroup G2a3b- about 4-5%;
    6) haplogroup Q with 0.5%;
    7) haplogroup L with 0.5%;
    8) haplogroup H about 1%.
    It is also possible to have other less common groups in small quantities that are unknown to us at this time.

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    The ancient Bulgarians were very likely to have been carriers of J2b and in particular J2b2-L283, given their location and origin - West Asia (Caucasus) and subsequently spread through Anatolia to the Balkans. The earliest European source mentioning Proto-Bulgarians is the so-called. An "Anonymous Roman Chronograph" - a list listing tribes and peoples, written in Latin in 354 by an unknown chronicler The Bulgarians, according to him, inhabited the lands around the Caspian, Azov and Black Seas, reaching south to the Caucasus foothills. Movses Khorenatsi, a 5th-century Armenian historian, reports that during the reign of Armenian King Vagarshak, Bulgarians crossed the Caucasus and settled in northeastern Turkey. An early account of the presence of the Proto-Bulgarians in Thrace in the 5th century gives a later text to John Antioch. According to him, the Ostrogoths invaded the Empire, and in 479 Emperor Zeno first allied himself with the Proto-Bulgarians who were here to help against the Goths. Another European source referring to Proto-Bulgarians (Βούλγαροι, Bulgari) is the chronicle of Enodius of Padua (died 521). He, like Cassiodorus, spoke of the victory of the Ostrogothic King Theodoric the Great in Srem against the Proto-Bulgarians, who fought in alliance with the Byzantine Empire around 485. For the next hundred years, the Byzantine authors (Procopius Caesarea, Agathi, Menander) did not use the name Bulgarians. Instead, in the place of the future Greater Bulgaria, there appear coutrigues and puzzles, probably two branches of the Proto-Bulgarians. Mentions of the Proto-Bulgarians reappeared at the end of the 6th century, when Greater Bulgaria was formed. In the Byzantine texts, the names Proto-Bulgarians, Couturiers and Utigurs are used interchangeably with Huns. According to them, the Bulgarians are identical or at least part of the Huns. The treasure from Vrap was discovered in 1901 by a peasant working in the field near the village of Vrap near Drac, Albania. Most scholars admit that this type of decoration was made in the 7th century. The biggest controversy about this treasure is which people have created these exquisite trimmings. The researchers go through various hypotheses, proclaiming the treasure for Avar, Bulgar, Byzantium, and even a forgery. The German archaeologist Joachim Werner argued that the find of Vrap is part of the treasury of the Avar Khaganate, possessed by Bulgaria's Kuber who ruled over the region at that time. The mere objects, according to him, are of nomadic origin and were produced by masters working for the ruler. *Kuber was Bulgar leader who ruled over Srem as a vassal to the Avar Khaganate. All of what we know comes from the "Miracles of St Demetrius" (The book is a hagiographic work, written in Thessaloniki in the 680s or 690s.). He ruled a mixed Christian population of Bulgars, Romans and Slavs that had been transferred to the Srem region in Pannonia by the Avars 60 years earlier. Kuber's Bulgars revolted and tried to make a coup and take the central power through an uprising. After the failed rebellion against the Avaric power, Kuber and his people headed south to the land of Byzantium, carrying six consecutive defeats to the pursuing avars. Kuber then made a peace treaty with the Byzantine Empire and settled in the Keramissian field (Prilep region), located in today's Republic of Macedonia. The Byzantines called these people "Sermisianoi" (after their former settlement - Sirmium), as well as the "Keramisians" (after their new place: the Keramissian plain). In Macedonia, they had contacts and possibly mixed with the "Dragovites" - a Slavic tribe in the region. In 680, he attempted to capture Thessaloniki and capture the Byzantine lands around him. This is evidenced by the seal of Mavrus - a lead seal dedicated to the "archon and patrician of Keramissians and Bulgarians". After an unsuccessful attempt to establish a state with a center in Thessaloniki, around 687, some of them moved to the lands along the Struma valley, to the east of Struma, as well as in the Rhodope mountains. Kuber was the son of Kubrat. Certainly, being a prominent prince would explain why the Avars gave hime rule, and his appearance in 670 chronologically fits the downfall of Old Great Bulgaria. He also suggests that Kuber's people represented a "second Balkan Bulgarian state’" in Macedonia, parallel to that of his brother's Asparukh realm in the north-eastern Balkans (modern northern Bulgaria). Whether he had established a state of sorts or not, nothing is mentioned of Kuber after the 680s, but Asparukh's son, Tervel, in the beginning of the 8th century, is said to have cooperated with "his uncles" from Thessaloniki, ("The lower Ohrid lands" ("Dolnaja zemja Ohridska") His people probably mixed with the Slavs living in the area, well before Presian expanded the First Bulgarian Empire into Macedonia in the early 800s. (It is suggested that Kuber’s Bulgars were allied with the First Bulgarian Empire, and were then incorporated in it.)

    The prominent archaeologist from Republic of Macedonia Ivan Mikulchik revealed the presence not only of the Kuber group, but an entire Bulgar archaeological culture throughout Macedonia and eastern Albania. He describes the traces of Bulgars in this region, which consist of typical fortresses, burials, various products of metallurgy and pottery with supposed Bulgar origin or ownership, lead seals, minted from Kuber, amulets, etc. However, part of this could actually represent traces of Avar presence too. Known to have raided as far south as Macedonia, material culture of the Avars was very similar to that of the Bulgars. With the Ottoman invasions of the Balkans began large-scale emigration waves from Bulgaria towards the Western Balkans, Wallachia, Moldova, Banat, Hungary, and after the 17th century in Russia.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    J2b2-l283 is on illyrian coast since antiquity (mathieson). It is found in elevated levels in Apulia and Po Valley in Italy, places where there were illyrian settlements. Nothing bulgarian about it.

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    1 out of 6 members found this post helpful.
    J2B2-L283 is too ancient to be brought by Illyrians.
    Should be from the times of Neolithic in Europe.
    So, J2B2-L283 should be from 8000 BC in Balkans.
    During the Neolithic, no Illyrians existed.
    Not in Europe, not in Asia.
    Neither proto-Celto-Ilyro-Romans existed 10k years ago. Not in Europe, not in Asia.
    That R1B-M269 that you see in Albania is what the Illyrians should have mostly brought in Balkans, but not all of it.
    A part of that R1B-M269 was brought by Celtic tribes in Balkans.
    Or, if Celts formed in Balkans, protoCelto-Ilyrians migrated to Balkans and brought that R1B-M269.
    There are 2 hypothesis about Illyrian languages:
    One is that the Illyrian languages were Centum and the other, that Illyrian languages were Satem.
    If we take the Centum variant, is hard for Illyrians to have brought in their migration from Asia to Balkans J2b2-L283.
    However, is known that Romans did not only carried R1B-U152, but some G and some J2A.
    So, there is a possibility that J2B2-L283 and R1B-M269 were brought by Illyrians in Balkans.
    As for the hypothesis that Illyrians spoke Satem,I think that is not so plausible.
    Albanian is most Centum shifted language from all Satem languages and I think it took this Satem character because Thracians conquered Illyrians and later, Slavs influenced Illyrians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    J2b2-l283 is on illyrian coast since antiquity (mathieson). It is found in elevated levels in Apulia and Po Valley in Italy, places where there were illyrian settlements. Nothing bulgarian about it.
    Bulgarians assimilated at least some Illyrian people.
    Think that is the origin of J2b2-L283 in Bulgarians.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    Bulgarians assimilated at least some Illyrian people.
    Think that is the origin of J2b2-L283 in Bulgarians.
    Yes it seems good part of Bulgarian J-L283's might descend of Illyrian eastward movements.
    In particular the example of this might be J-PH1602.
    Already one Bulgarian J-Y40288 clusters with a Serb from Central Serbia. Their TMRCA is low so might be some recent movement.

    But in the study of 808 Bulgarian haplotypes there are 19 available J-M241's, of those 5 are missing dys456. Now why would that be? Only they are missing dys456. I think it's something similar to multiple R-YP4278 looking haplotypes missing their key value of very low dys458=13, one J-F4306 also is missing dys458, 13 is very common there. Also a problem with missing repeated values at dys385.. So I bet all those L283's missing dys456 are with dys456=12. Which is a defining STR for PH1602. As PH1602 is downstream from J-Y15058 which was found in proto-Delmatae burial in Dalmatia it is clear their distant origin is in the West. There is another Bulgarian at FTDNA with dys456=12 and he matches a Vlach from Greece. So overall counting these as dys458=12, on a sample of 25 Bulgarian J-L283, 7 of those have dys456=12/are likely PH1602. That's more than 1/4 being descended from the Western Balkans in Early Iron Age. In addition counting those where dys385a is available we might say 7/35 are likely Z631 (dys385a=10/13). So it seems almost half of Bulgarian J-L283's are PH1602/Z631, in a significant contrast to Albanian J-L283 structure where Z631/PH1602 make up 9 %.. Both of these are younger, PH1602 has certainly origin in Western Balkans, Z631 too. I think both of these likely had a connection to Glasinac-Mati Illyrian culture whose carriers at one point had a migration to the East.

    In Albanians interestingly PH1602 doesn't exist yet, not sure if there are any dys456=12 in studies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    Yes it seems good part of Bulgarian J-L283's might descend of Illyrian eastward movements.
    In particular the example of this might be J-PH1602.
    Already one Bulgarian J-Y40288 clusters with a Serb from Central Serbia. Their TMRCA is low so might be some recent movement.

    But in the study of 808 Bulgarian haplotypes there are 19 available J-M241's, of those 5 are missing dys456. Now why would that be? Only they are missing dys456. I think it's something similar to multiple R-YP4278 looking haplotypes missing their key value of very low dys458=13, one J-F4306 also is missing dys458, 13 is very common there. Also a problem with missing repeated values at dys385.. So I bet all those L283's missing dys456 are with dys456=12. Which is a defining STR for PH1602. As PH1602 is downstream from J-Y15058 which was found in proto-Delmatae burial in Dalmatia it is clear their distant origin is in the West. There is another Bulgarian at FTDNA with dys456=12 and he matches a Vlach from Greece. So overall counting these as dys458=12, on a sample of 25 Bulgarian J-L283, 7 of those have dys456=12/are likely PH1602. That's more than 1/4 being descended from the Western Balkans in Early Iron Age. In addition counting those where dys385a is available we might say 7/35 are likely Z631 (dys385a=10/13). So it seems almost half of Bulgarian J-L283's are PH1602/Z631, in a significant contrast to Albanian J-L283 structure where Z631/PH1602 make up 9 %.. Both of these are younger, PH1602 has certainly origin in Western Balkans, Z631 too. I think both of these likely had a connection to Glasinac-Mati Illyrian culture whose carriers at one point had a migration to the East.

    In Albanians interestingly PH1602 doesn't exist yet, not sure if there are any dys456=12 in studies.

    Excellent analysis. I enjoyed reading this post. There are many PH1602 individuals (DYS 456=12 as you’ve mentioned) who are yet to be grouped in the M241 project page. Looking forward to theories regarding this particular branch of J2b2 L283.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    Yes it seems good part of Bulgarian J-L283's might descend of Illyrian eastward movements.
    In particular the example of this might be J-PH1602.
    Already one Bulgarian J-Y40288 clusters with a Serb from Central Serbia. Their TMRCA is low so might be some recent movement.
    But in the study of 808 Bulgarian haplotypes there are 19 available J-M241's, of those 5 are missing dys456. Now why would that be? Only they are missing dys456. I think it's something similar to multiple R-YP4278 looking haplotypes missing their key value of very low dys458=13, one J-F4306 also is missing dys458, 13 is very common there. Also a problem with missing repeated values at dys385.. So I bet all those L283's missing dys456 are with dys456=12. Which is a defining STR for PH1602. As PH1602 is downstream from J-Y15058 which was found in proto-Delmatae burial in Dalmatia it is clear their distant origin is in the West. There is another Bulgarian at FTDNA with dys456=12 and he matches a Vlach from Greece. So overall counting these as dys458=12, on a sample of 25 Bulgarian J-L283, 7 of those have dys456=12/are likely PH1602. That's more than 1/4 being descended from the Western Balkans in Early Iron Age. In addition counting those where dys385a is available we might say 7/35 are likely Z631 (dys385a=10/13). So it seems almost half of Bulgarian J-L283's are PH1602/Z631, in a significant contrast to Albanian J-L283 structure where Z631/PH1602 make up 9 %.. Both of these are younger, PH1602 has certainly origin in Western Balkans, Z631 too. I think both of these likely had a connection to Glasinac-Mati Illyrian culture whose carriers at one point had a migration to the East.
    In Albanians interestingly PH1602 doesn't exist yet, not sure if there are any dys456=12 in studies.
    Yes, I haven't seen any DYS456=12 (J-PH1602) among Albanians as of yet. There is actually one, but he is a match to the J-CTS11100*>Hoti Cluster, so he should have a recent mutation from 13>12 there. Alternatively, I haven't ran into any J-Z38300 north of Montenegro, unless we're talking of some recent J-PH1751's that might've migrated there with Arbanasi, etc, so everything is pointing to what I suggested below some time ago.

    PS. Turns out the Sardinian J-YP9 is positive for Y21045 which is at the same level as PH2967, and also Z1296 and Z638 are now at the same level. YFull used Y21045 to define the clade as they have no call for PH2967, but they are negative for Z38300 and PH4679.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    Indeed, PH1602 hasn't been found among Albanians thus far. This clade's center of diversity is certainly in the Western Balkans as well, though it seems further north in the area of Croatia/Bosnia.

    IMO, J-L283 expanded in the Western Balkans during the Middle Bronze Age, or around the timeframe we find this J-L283>Y15058 in Dalmatia. So what's likely to have happened is around that time, generally Z1296 probably went further south (modern Montenegro, North Albania), while Y15058 generally more northern (modern Croatia, Bosnia). This is also supported by the new sample from Mat, Albania, as he should split the J-Y20899 clade, which is a "basal" J-Z1296, around that timeframe or Middle Bronze Age. Also, in a STR study from Apulia, I didn't see any PH1602 looking haplotypes (PH1602 usually has DYS456=12), but I noticed some Z1296 looking ones, particularly Z1296>Y20899, and Z1296>Z1297>Y23094, maybe others. Again, consistent with the idea that Y15058 was more northern, while Z638>Z1296 more southern.

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