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Thread: J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Polska View Post
    Excellent analysis. I enjoyed reading this post. There are many PH1602 individuals (DYS 456=12 as you’ve mentioned) who are yet to be grouped in the M241 project page. Looking forward to theories regarding this particular branch of J2b2 L283.

    Thanks, I don't think it's very complicated to make hypothesis about PH1602, considering the Vanik sample.


    I see some German PH1602's especially YF10055 from Rheinland.
    Roman inscription from Bingerbrück
    Bato Dasantis fil(ius) | natione Ditio mil(es) ex|coh(orte) IIII Delmatarum a|n(orum) XXXV stipendior(um) XV | h(ic) s(itus) e(st) h(eres) p(osuit).


    Soldier Bato was from the tribe Ditiones from IV'th Delmatian cohort. Ditiones were very near Delmatae and likely/possibly related.


    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    so everything is pointing to what I suggested below some time ago.

    Yes it seems Z1296 migrated en masse towards Southeast which was expected because the archaeological culture where J-L283 was found did not originate in modern-day Albania but Dalmatia/Western Bosnia, so they must have arrived from NW.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    I see some German PH1602's especially YF10055 from Rheinland.
    Roman inscription from Bingerbrück
    Bato Dasantis fil(ius) | natione Ditio mil(es) ex|coh(orte) IIII Delmatarum a|n(orum) XXXV stipendior(um) XV | h(ic) s(itus) e(st) h(eres) p(osuit).


    Soldier Bato was from the tribe Ditiones from IV'th Delmatian cohort. Ditiones were very near Delmatae and likely/possibly related.
    Fascinating
    "As we have already stressed, the mass evacuation of the Albanians from their triangle is the only effective course we can take. In order to relocate a whole people, the first prerequisite is the creation of a suitable psychosis. This can be done in various ways." - Vaso Cubrilovic

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    Btw, the name "Dasos" according to Radoslav Katicic (Rest in Peace, he died yesterday) belongs to the Delmato-Pannonian name system (although I think they are both the same language personally).

    He lists Dasius, Dasent, Dasmenus as examples.

    There is a very high probability that Das- is related to the male name "Dash (ram) common in the Albanian highlands.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Btw, the name "Dasos" according to Radoslav Katicic (Rest in Peace, he died yesterday) belongs to the Delmato-Pannonian name system (although I think they are both the same language personally).

    He lists Dasius, Dasent, Dasmenus as examples.

    There is a very high probability that Das- is related to the male name "Dash (ram) common in the Albanian highlands.

    Does this movement of Dalmatae tribes south probably during gothic times could offer a valid hypothesis of geg/tosk spilt?


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    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    Indeed that J2b-L283 is typical to Albanians, from Europe populations.
    I seen Kosovars got 23% R1B-M269 and that other Albanians got 26.5% (Maqedoni (Gjithsej 34)).
    Also, Kosovars got 8.3% I1 so they clearly mixed with some Germanic people that came from Scandinavia.
    I am not sure that Illyrians are more than 2000 BC ancient, in Balkans.
    They should have come with the Celtic tribes (the Illyrians).
    Fatherland actually scores some similarity to Scottish people :) .
    Who came first in Balkans, Thracians or Illyrians, that, I have no idea.
    Acording to Maciamo, R1B came latest in Europe, while I came first :) .
    R1A came before R1B in Europe, but not so early, maybe 2000 years before R1B.
    There are also ex-Yugos and Romanians that are scoring some similarity with Welsh/South English people, but not too much (Romanians, up to 17% from what I seen. Ex Yugos, might score more).

    So, J2b2-L283 might have been in Balkans before Illyrians and E-V13, might also have been in Balkans,before Illyrians came there.
    Illyrians might have been actually mostly R1B-M269 and conquered the E-V13 and J2b2-L283 Balkanites.
    J-L283 is only typical to albanians in certain specific subclades.
    Meaning that those subclades just had the most offspring when merged to proto albanians. But other subclades have nothing to do with illyrians or albanians.

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    Also r1b i would associate with bell beakers

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    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    J2B2-L283 is too ancient to be brought by Illyrians.
    Should be from the times of Neolithic in Europe.
    So, J2B2-L283 should be from 8000 BC in Balkans.
    During the Neolithic, no Illyrians existed.
    Not in Europe, not in Asia.
    Neither proto-Celto-Ilyro-Romans existed 10k years ago. Not in Europe, not in Asia.
    That R1B-M269 that you see in Albania is what the Illyrians should have mostly brought in Balkans, but not all of it.
    A part of that R1B-M269 was brought by Celtic tribes in Balkans.
    Or, if Celts formed in Balkans, protoCelto-Ilyrians migrated to Balkans and brought that R1B-M269.
    There are 2 hypothesis about Illyrian languages:
    One is that the Illyrian languages were Centum and the other, that Illyrian languages were Satem.
    If we take the Centum variant, is hard for Illyrians to have brought in their migration from Asia to Balkans J2b2-L283.
    However, is known that Romans did not only carried R1B-U152, but some G and some J2A.
    So, there is a possibility that J2B2-L283 and R1B-M269 were brought by Illyrians in Balkans.
    As for the hypothesis that Illyrians spoke Satem,I think that is not so plausible.
    Albanian is most Centum shifted language from all Satem languages and I think it took this Satem character because Thracians conquered Illyrians and later, Slavs influenced Illyrians.
    J-L283 was more than likely still in the caucus or middle east somewhere. The earliest samples of J-L283 is in the caucus. The earliest sample of of one in europe is about 1200 bc croatia. Its very unlikely it was in europe that early.
    But we know that J-L283 split with a lineage that settled in Afghanistan in its basal state. Some of those ended up in india, pakistan ect.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Another result from Bosniak project I noticed, Grosic from Bosnian Krajina J-Z1043* (YSEQ ?).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    Another result from Bosniak project I noticed, Grosic from Bosnian Krajina J-Z1043* (YSEQ ?).
    Interesting. I would guess this is the haplotype with 388=16, 389=13-29 where the Albanian J-Z631>Thaçi-Korbi belongs. The reason is because one such haplotype recently tested as J-Z1043* on their YSEQ group ;) The Greek who did BigY didn't have any reads for Z1043, so we now know the 388=16 & 389=13-29 cluster is J-Z1043*. The Greek hasn't yet uploaded to YFull, however. Also, an Albanian who tested J-Z1043* on YSEQ, with a different haplotype, has a Dante Labs WGS on order, so hopefully we see him on YFull soon and add more Balkan diversity there..
    Last edited by Trojet; 22-08-19 at 05:42.
    Y-DNA: J-L283
    Maternal Y-DNA: E-V13

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    An interesting J2b-L283 in ancient DNA from: https://science.sciencemag.org/content/366/6466/708


    Sample R474, Civitavecchia, Etruscan, 700-600 BCE (Iron Age/Roman Republic) is: J2b-L283>>Z597>Y15058>CTS6190


    Furthermore, he is positive for three Private SNPs of YF03795 USA. So he creates a subclade downstream of J-CTS6190 with YF03795, parallel to the other three: https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-CTS6190/


    Considering this find and its modern distribution, the whole J-CTS6190 may have become Etruscan. However, since we have an older J-Y15058 in southern Croatia by ~1000 years and so far no J-Z597>Y146400 in Italy, it likely migrated from across the Adriatic sometime between MBA to LBA.


    In regards to the more distant origin of J2b-L283 and its migration, I would invite some of you, especially Aspurg, to read the following comment from Davidski: http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/1...00267437864398


    Anyways, let's wait for upcoming aDNA ;)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    An interesting J2b-L283 in ancient DNA from: https://science.sciencemag.org/content/366/6466/708


    Sample R474, Civitavecchia, Etruscan, 700-600 BCE (Iron Age/Roman Republic) is: J2b-L283>>Z597>Y15058>CTS6190


    Furthermore, he is positive for three Private SNPs of YF03795 USA. So he creates a subclade downstream of J-CTS6190 with YF03795, parallel to the other three: https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-CTS6190/


    Considering this find and its modern distribution, the whole J-CTS6190 may have become Etruscan. However, since we have an older J-Y15058 in southern Croatia by ~1000 years and so far no J-Z597>Y146400 in Italy, it likely migrated from across the Adriatic sometime between MBA to LBA.


    In regards to the more distant origin of J2b-L283 and its migration, I would invite some of you, especially Aspurg, to read the following comment from Davidski: http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/1...00267437864398


    Anyways, let's wait for upcoming aDNA ;)
    He was arguing until quite recently for J2b middle eastern/anatolian/levant origin. He must have seen something convincing to have abandoned that position. I guess more samples are coming.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post

    Considering this find and its modern distribution, the whole J-CTS6190 may have become Etruscan. However, since we have an older J-Y15058 in southern Croatia by ~1000 years and so far no J-Z597>Y146400 in Italy, it likely migrated from across the Adriatic sometime between MBA to LBA.


    In regards to the more distant origin of J2b-L283 and its migration, I would invite some of you, especially Aspurg, to read the following comment from Davidski: http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/1...00267437864398


    Anyways, let's wait for upcoming aDNA ;)
    I think too the whole J-CTS6190 is Etruscan, as for the J-L283 origin, Etruscans were similar to Latins autosomally, and I think this Etruscan is not so different from the Dalmatian find.

    What is weird about J-L283 are these older clades in Sardinia, and presence in Nuragic Sardinia, whereas at that time there were no R-M269 etc.

    It's not impossible for J-CTS6190 to have been a local who remained in Italy if it expanded to Balkans (from N.Italy) during MBA, as J-CTS6190 is still abit distant to the other clades (3800 ybp).. In any case J-L283 is not native to Balkans but it came as a force during EBA/MBA. It's clear it has a strong Illyrian association.

    I heard of some I1 and R-U152 in Etruscans, those must be from other studies?? And I guess Davidski might have some additional insight if someone has leaked something.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    He was arguing until quite recently for J2b middle eastern/anatolian/levant origin. He must have seen something convincing to have abandoned that position. I guess more samples are coming.
    It still might have a anatolians levant origin but specifically for my clade. For most others probably not.

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    Today I noticed an interesting new BigY result for J-L283 research. Someone who seems to be with origin from Alsace (France/Germany border region), splits the J-YP29 clade, which is one of the rare J-L283 branches, parallel to the more popular J-Z600. He is only positive for one SNP, with the remaining showing negative. This would suggest that J-L283 expanded en masse westwards soon after its TMRCA lived, my best guess would be from around NW shores of the Black Sea.

    Also, recently an Armenian with an interesting J2b haplotype ordered a BigY. Let's see where he fits but I think he is likely some rare/basal J-L283.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    I think too the whole J-CTS6190 is Etruscan, as for the J-L283 origin, Etruscans were similar to Latins autosomally, and I think this Etruscan is not so different from the Dalmatian find.
    Bingo. In addition to both being J-Y15058+, they have very similar Autosomal components. So IMO, this "Etruscan clade" is very likely a migrant from accros the Adriatic, and not the other way around.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    What is weird about J-L283 are these older clades in Sardinia, and presence in Nuragic Sardinia, whereas at that time there were no R-M269 etc.
    Hehe, no matter how many times you bring these "old Sardinian clades", to me it's evident J-L283 is not native to Sardinia or Italy ;) The MBA North Caucasus sample, imo, killed this theory. Sure, it's possible it initially migrated to North Italy and subsequently expanded into both western Balkans and the Italian peninsula, but I don't think it's native to Italy. I'm no Autosomal expert, but as far as I recall, these Nuragic J-L283 samples did show some "Steppe" ancestry. And J-L283 didn't have to migrate at the same time and in the same regions as an R-M269 clade.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    I heard of some I1 and R-U152 in Etruscans, those must be from other studies?? And I guess Davidski might have some additional insight if someone has leaked something.
    I heard about this rumor of Etruscan I1 and R-U152 samples too, but didn't see any in this recent paper. Perhaps there is an upcoming one..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    Bingo. In addition to both being J-Y15058+, they have very similar Autosomal components. So IMO, this "Etruscan clade" is very likely a migrant from accros the Adriatic, and not the other way around.
    He did look similar on some preliminary models I saw, though Latins and Etruscans also showed similarities. He might have migrated to there but this clade as I said is still distant to other clades at 3800 ybp, your clade too has a Sardinian cousin J-YP9.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    Hehe, no matter how many times you bring these "old Sardinian clades", to me it's evident J-L283 is not native to Sardinia or Italy ;) The MBA North Caucasus sample, imo, killed this theory. Sure, it's possible it initially migrated to North Italy and subsequently expanded into both western Balkans and the Italian peninsula, but I don't think it's native to Italy. I'm no Autosomal expert, but as far as I recall, these Nuragic J-L283 samples did show some "Steppe" ancestry. And J-L283 didn't have to migrate at the same time and in the same regions as an R-M269 clade.
    Well Sardinian clades are old, and why would it be logical to assume that they arrived there 1200 BC when their TMRCA is 3400 BC. Also there is a Tuscan NA20763. J-L283 with this French YP29 clearly has a Western orientation. So if it arrived from the NW shore of the Black Sea it must have first expanded to the West. In that context Bell Bekaers had some early presence in Sardinia so it might have arrived then.

    N.Caucasian is in vicinity of the Steppe indeed, I think he is quite basal and unrelated to any other L283? He was dated little earlier than Dalmatian sample. Also I think J-L283 has been in Europe in EBA as well. It maybe expanded to W.Balkans around EBA/MBA turnover, but it was present in Europe before. J-Y15058 also has some relatively older clades in Western/Northern Europe.

    I see that Greek J-Z631 is now at YFull. J-BY38004 from Vojvodina is not a Serb almost certainly. I don't think he is Hungarian either. Nebojsa thinks he is Romanian from Banat, that's probably most likely. He has a cousin in Vojvodina study from 2008, and there are various Hungarians, Romanians, Roma in that sample.
    Last edited by Aspurg; 19-11-19 at 02:30.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    He did look similar on some preliminary models I saw, though Latins and Etruscans also showed similarities. He might have migrated to there but this clade as I said is still distant to other clades at 3800 ybp, your clade too has a Sardinian cousin J-YP9.
    Indeed. And the J-YP9 clade in Sardinia likely has a fairly high TMRCA as there is two Sardinians there sharing only three SNPs among themselves, probably similar TMRCA to its "brother" J-Z38300.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    Well Sardinian clades are old, and why would it be logical to assume that they arrived there 1200 BC when their TMRCA is 3400 BC. Also there is a Tuscan NA20763. J-L283 with this French YP29 clearly has a Western orientation. So if it arrived from the NW shore of the Black Sea it must have first expanded to the West. In that context Bell Bekaers had some early presence in Sardinia so it might have arrived then.
    Yes, not saying J-L283 arrived there right at 1200 BCE, just that it's not native to Sardinia like you once proclaimed on Poreklo: "J-L283 = Neolithic Sardinia"

    What you're saying now maybe is not so far-fetched, that it perhaps arrived in Sardinia with some wave of Bell Beakers starting ~2000 BCE. I see that Wiki article states: "Then, the Beaker culture mixed with the related Bonnanaro culture, considered the first stage of the Nuragic civilization."

    But what's interesting to me is J-L283 has so far never been found among the continental Beakers or deep within European EBA.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    N.Caucasian is in vicinity of the Steppe indeed, I think he is quite basal and unrelated to any other L283? He was dated little earlier than Dalmatian sample. Also I think J-L283 has been in Europe in EBA as well. It maybe expanded to W.Balkans around EBA/MBA turnover, but it was present in Europe before. J-Y15058 also has some relatively older clades in Western/Northern Europe.
    Yes, KDC001 Kudachurt ~3823 YBP MBA North Caucasus is J-L283+ (+9 other SNPs) and Z627- YP91-. So definitely negative on SNPs on both branches, J-Z600 and J-YP29. However, this French/Alsace that splits the J-YP29 clade is positive for BY55372 but negative for the rest, and this ancient sample has no call for BY55372. This SNP is currently not being used on YFull's tree (I'm guessing because the Sardinian has no call), but I verified that it should be a J-YP29 equivalent.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    I see Greek that J-Z631 is now at YFull. J-BY38004 from Vojvodina is not a Serb almost certainly. I don't think he is Hungarian either. Nebojsa thinks he is Romanian from Banat, that's probably most likely. He has a cousin in Vojvodina study from 2008, and there are various Hungarians, Romanians, Roma in that sample.
    The new Greek J-Z631 is most definitely the one with 388=16, 389I,II=13,29. So he should be J-Z1043*.

    Not sure if I posted here, but the recent ancient sample: R116, 0-200 CE, Imperial Rome, is CTS10800+ Z639+ Y155546- Y158382- Y144421- Z1048- Y87605 NC Y130482 NC
    So it looks like he is near J-Z631*, but definitely negative for 3/4 downstream subclades including Z1048.

    This result does certainly add weight to the thesis that J-Z631 originated around the Adriatic and was mostly spread around Europe through Roman legionaries. However, on the other hand, since its autosomal seems western shifted, I think it also supports the Celtic expansion theory.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    Yes, not saying J-L283 arrived there right at 1200 BCE, just that it's not native to Sardinia like you once proclaimed on Poreklo: "J-L283 = Neolithic Sardinia"

    What you're saying now maybe is not so far-fetched, that it perhaps arrived in Sardinia with some wave of Bell Beakers starting ~2000 BCE. I see that Wiki article states: "Then, the Beaker culture mixed with the related Bonnanaro culture, considered the first stage of the Nuragic civilization."

    But what's interesting to me is J-L283 has so far never been found among the continental Beakers or deep within European EBA.
    I was being deliberately theatrical there, as I had problems with some of their other comments at the time. Well yes J-L283 were Nuragic addition, the only new hg so they might have had significant influence on formation of that culture and that detail does involve Beakers there as well. I know, no L283 Beaker finds thus far but some more Southern areas might yield results eventually. They likely won't be find in Iberia, Britain, NW Europe.
    Female Vanik sample had mtdna W3a1, found in one German BB, Yamnaya. Interestingly J-L283 sample had I1a1, also rare and more Eastern, my own is I1a1a, possibly he too falls there.


    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    The new Greek J-Z631 is most definitely the one with 388=16, 389I,II=13,29. So he should be J-Z1043*.

    Not sure if I posted here, but the recent ancient sample: R116, 0-200 CE, Imperial Rome, is CTS10800+ Z639+ Y155546- Y158382- Y144421- Z1048- Y87605 NC Y130482 NC
    So it looks like he is near J-Z631*, but definitely negative for 3/4 downstream subclades including Z1048.

    This result does certainly add weight to the thesis that J-Z631 originated around the Adriatic and was mostly spread around Europe through Roman legionaries. However, on the other hand, since its autosomal seems western shifted, I think it also supports the Celtic expansion theory.
    Thats what I noticed about R116, high NW autosomal result. I thought clade J-CTS11760 is definitely Celtic, some others might be as well. I think Z631 should be related to Glasinac-Mati, and some of its clades migrated to the North, they might have mingled there with proto-Celts.

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    This just reminded me that i also seen his post on Serb forum where he says J2-L283 is Neolithic and where he says that Albanians have rushed in theory that J2-L283 spread with IE only based on some autosomal results and mtDNA.

    What he does not understand is that this is not based on I4331 autosomal neither mtDNA, but rather on so far tested ancient results where pretty much entire Europe was tested since Paleolithic and yet this Croatian 1600 BCE sample I4331 was the first and oldest J2b-L283 found. Second to that L283 has exclusively and very harsh Bronze Age Indo-European expansion.

    J2b-L283 formed 9600 ybp, TMRCA 5400 ybp, so by looking at Yfull its easy to see that almost all and vast majority of samples come from Indo-European or more specific European populations, where TMRCA somewhat nicely fits Bronze Age Indo-European expansion.

    However, as we know oldest IE cultures were pretty much homogenous R1a or R1b, also by looking at all other evidences as earlier splits when going upward the genetic tree, by my theory J2b-L283 was some kind of North Caucasus population originally. Probably offshot from Zagros to Caucasus, giving that oldest J2b-M12* was found in Zagros mountains.

    Furthermore by my opinion J2b-L283 was picked up somewhere in a path of Yamnaya to South and West Europe by most likely R1b (probably R-Z2103) which is major R1 in Albanians and probably source of Albanian language.

    Furthermore by my opinion i can conclude the same for E1b-v13 branch, which is most likely giving by the many evidences present since Neolithic in Europe but as a minor population, but only later one part of E-v13 specifically 4800 ybp TMRCA part joined with IE, probably somewhere in East Europe and also spread with Bronze Age Indo Europeans.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Also regarding Etruscan J2b-L283, there is no doubt that Etruscan J2b-L283 is Dalmatian expansion since they are exactly same branch, therefore most likely arrived with same source, and it had exactly 1000 years to expand from Dalmatia to Italy which is btw very close one to another. Maybe this sample does not reflect real Etruscan origin, or Etruscans where already mixed with Indo-Europeans in that time of period. Or maybe Etruscans will also prove to be Indo-European expansion. Need more Etruscan samples to be sure of their origin, we cant judge by one sample. But what is clear is that Dalmatia J2b-L283 which most likely arrived with Bronze Age Indo-Europeans later also expanded in entire Italy which more samples can testify and not only this 700 BCE Etruscan one, which is btw very young sample and has no priority when looking at origin. Its clearly Dalmatian Bronze Age or later Balkan expansion into Italian Peninsula.

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    Does anyone have any deeper information on the dardani? Where did they come from, what year and did they have a successful reign in their region or were they wiped out/fully assimilated?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ShpataEMadhe View Post
    Does anyone have any deeper information on the dardani? Where did they come from, what year and did they have a successful reign in their region or were they wiped out/fully assimilated?
    This thread is not about ancient Dardani tribe, this is third thread where i am reporting you, this time for spam. :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    This thread is not about ancient Dardani tribe, this is third thread where i am reporting you, this time for spam. :)
    L283 could be dardani but only if it was a relevant tribe, their stronghold was mostly in the North East albania and kosova region. If dardani were trojans or related maybe it would explain j2b l283

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    Quote Originally Posted by ShpataEMadhe View Post
    L283 could be dardani but only if it was a relevant tribe, their stronghold was mostly in the North East albania and kosova region. If dardani were trojans or related maybe it would explain j2b l283

    You do understand how stupid this sounds?

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