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Thread: J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

  1. #401
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    4 out of 4 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Polska View Post
    Excellent analysis. I enjoyed reading this post. There are many PH1602 individuals (DYS 456=12 as you’ve mentioned) who are yet to be grouped in the M241 project page. Looking forward to theories regarding this particular branch of J2b2 L283.

    Thanks, I don't think it's very complicated to make hypothesis about PH1602, considering the Vanik sample.


    I see some German PH1602's especially YF10055 from Rheinland.
    Roman inscription from Bingerbrück
    Bato Dasantis fil(ius) | natione Ditio mil(es) ex|coh(orte) IIII Delmatarum a|n(orum) XXXV stipendior(um) XV | h(ic) s(itus) e(st) h(eres) p(osuit).


    Soldier Bato was from the tribe Ditiones from IV'th Delmatian cohort. Ditiones were very near Delmatae and likely/possibly related.


    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    so everything is pointing to what I suggested below some time ago.

    Yes it seems Z1296 migrated en masse towards Southeast which was expected because the archaeological culture where J-L283 was found did not originate in modern-day Albania but Dalmatia/Western Bosnia, so they must have arrived from NW.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    I see some German PH1602's especially YF10055 from Rheinland.
    Roman inscription from Bingerbrück
    Bato Dasantis fil(ius) | natione Ditio mil(es) ex|coh(orte) IIII Delmatarum a|n(orum) XXXV stipendior(um) XV | h(ic) s(itus) e(st) h(eres) p(osuit).


    Soldier Bato was from the tribe Ditiones from IV'th Delmatian cohort. Ditiones were very near Delmatae and likely/possibly related.
    Fascinating
    "As we have already stressed, the mass evacuation of the Albanians from their triangle is the only effective course we can take. In order to relocate a whole people, the first prerequisite is the creation of a suitable psychosis. This can be done in various ways." - Vaso Cubrilovic

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Btw, the name "Dasos" according to Radoslav Katicic (Rest in Peace, he died yesterday) belongs to the Delmato-Pannonian name system (although I think they are both the same language personally).

    He lists Dasius, Dasent, Dasmenus as examples.

    There is a very high probability that Das- is related to the male name "Dash (ram) common in the Albanian highlands.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Btw, the name "Dasos" according to Radoslav Katicic (Rest in Peace, he died yesterday) belongs to the Delmato-Pannonian name system (although I think they are both the same language personally).

    He lists Dasius, Dasent, Dasmenus as examples.

    There is a very high probability that Das- is related to the male name "Dash (ram) common in the Albanian highlands.

    Does this movement of Dalmatae tribes south probably during gothic times could offer a valid hypothesis of geg/tosk spilt?


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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    Indeed that J2b-L283 is typical to Albanians, from Europe populations.
    I seen Kosovars got 23% R1B-M269 and that other Albanians got 26.5% (Maqedoni (Gjithsej 34)).
    Also, Kosovars got 8.3% I1 so they clearly mixed with some Germanic people that came from Scandinavia.
    I am not sure that Illyrians are more than 2000 BC ancient, in Balkans.
    They should have come with the Celtic tribes (the Illyrians).
    Fatherland actually scores some similarity to Scottish people :) .
    Who came first in Balkans, Thracians or Illyrians, that, I have no idea.
    Acording to Maciamo, R1B came latest in Europe, while I came first :) .
    R1A came before R1B in Europe, but not so early, maybe 2000 years before R1B.
    There are also ex-Yugos and Romanians that are scoring some similarity with Welsh/South English people, but not too much (Romanians, up to 17% from what I seen. Ex Yugos, might score more).

    So, J2b2-L283 might have been in Balkans before Illyrians and E-V13, might also have been in Balkans,before Illyrians came there.
    Illyrians might have been actually mostly R1B-M269 and conquered the E-V13 and J2b2-L283 Balkanites.
    J-L283 is only typical to albanians in certain specific subclades.
    Meaning that those subclades just had the most offspring when merged to proto albanians. But other subclades have nothing to do with illyrians or albanians.

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    Also r1b i would associate with bell beakers

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    0 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    J2B2-L283 is too ancient to be brought by Illyrians.
    Should be from the times of Neolithic in Europe.
    So, J2B2-L283 should be from 8000 BC in Balkans.
    During the Neolithic, no Illyrians existed.
    Not in Europe, not in Asia.
    Neither proto-Celto-Ilyro-Romans existed 10k years ago. Not in Europe, not in Asia.
    That R1B-M269 that you see in Albania is what the Illyrians should have mostly brought in Balkans, but not all of it.
    A part of that R1B-M269 was brought by Celtic tribes in Balkans.
    Or, if Celts formed in Balkans, protoCelto-Ilyrians migrated to Balkans and brought that R1B-M269.
    There are 2 hypothesis about Illyrian languages:
    One is that the Illyrian languages were Centum and the other, that Illyrian languages were Satem.
    If we take the Centum variant, is hard for Illyrians to have brought in their migration from Asia to Balkans J2b2-L283.
    However, is known that Romans did not only carried R1B-U152, but some G and some J2A.
    So, there is a possibility that J2B2-L283 and R1B-M269 were brought by Illyrians in Balkans.
    As for the hypothesis that Illyrians spoke Satem,I think that is not so plausible.
    Albanian is most Centum shifted language from all Satem languages and I think it took this Satem character because Thracians conquered Illyrians and later, Slavs influenced Illyrians.
    J-L283 was more than likely still in the caucus or middle east somewhere. The earliest samples of J-L283 is in the caucus. The earliest sample of of one in europe is about 1200 bc croatia. Its very unlikely it was in europe that early.
    But we know that J-L283 split with a lineage that settled in Afghanistan in its basal state. Some of those ended up in india, pakistan ect.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Another result from Bosniak project I noticed, Grosic from Bosnian Krajina J-Z1043* (YSEQ ?).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    Another result from Bosniak project I noticed, Grosic from Bosnian Krajina J-Z1043* (YSEQ ?).
    Interesting. I would guess this is the haplotype with 388=16, 389=13-29 where the Albanian J-Z631>Thaçi-Korbi belongs. The reason is because one such haplotype recently tested as J-Z1043* on their YSEQ group ;) The Greek who did BigY didn't have any reads for Z1043, so we now know the 388=16 & 389=13-29 cluster is J-Z1043*. The Greek hasn't yet uploaded to YFull, however. Also, an Albanian who tested J-Z1043* on YSEQ, with a different haplotype, has a Dante Labs WGS on order, so hopefully we see him on YFull soon and add more Balkan diversity there..
    Last edited by Trojet; 22-08-19 at 04:42.
    Y-DNA: J-L283
    Maternal Y-DNA: E-V13

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