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Thread: J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

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    4 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    Today I noticed an interesting new BigY result for J-L283 research. Someone who seems to be with origin from Alsace (France/Germany border region), splits the J-YP29 clade, which is one of the rare J-L283 branches, parallel to the more popular J-Z600. He is only positive for one SNP, with the remaining showing negative. This would suggest that J-L283 expanded en masse westwards soon after its TMRCA lived, my best guess would be from around NW shores of the Black Sea.

    Also, recently an Armenian with an interesting J2b haplotype ordered a BigY. Let's see where he fits but I think he is likely some rare/basal J-L283.
    And we have the BigY result for this Armenian. A very interesting result: He is J-L283* and also negative for around 7 L283 SNPs, maybe a few more. So he splits the J-L283 node, probably around 6000 ybp or not far from its current TMRCA. This means the European branches J-Z600 and J-BY55372>YP29 will fall downstream, more specifically below J-L283>Z577,Z622.
    Y-DNA: J-L283
    Maternal Y-DNA: E-V13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    J-L283 was more than likely still in the caucus or middle east somewhere. The earliest samples of J-L283 is in the caucus. The earliest sample of of one in europe is about 1200 bc croatia. Its very unlikely it was in europe that early.
    But we know that J-L283 split with a lineage that settled in Afghanistan in its basal state. Some of those ended up in india, pakistan ect.
    J2b2 in India and in Afghanistan is a remain of the Macedonian invasion. Macedonians were southern Illyrians whom got heavily influenced by the Hellenic civilization. Not mentioning that some Illyrian proper were part of the Macedonian army at the Asian conquest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Piro Ilir View Post
    J2b2 in India and in Afghanistan is a remain of the Macedonian invasion. Macedonians were southern Illyrians whom got heavily influenced by the Hellenic civilization. Not mentioning that some Illyrian proper were part of the Macedonian army at the Asian conquest
    Do we also assume that Paeonians who lived between Macedonians and Dardanians are also "illyrians "?
    Fathers mtdna T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna T1a1e
    Sons mtdna K1a4o
    Mum paternal line R1b-S8172
    Grandmum paternal side I1d1-P109
    Wife paternal line R1a-Z282

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    Quote Originally Posted by Piro Ilir View Post
    J2b2 in India and in Afghanistan is a remain of the Macedonian invasion. Macedonians were southern Illyrians whom got heavily influenced by the Hellenic civilization. Not mentioning that some Illyrian proper were part of the Macedonian army at the Asian conquest
    Not really. The vast majority of Indian and Asian J2b2 is Z2432+ and not L283+ like European J2b2. Z2432 likely expanded into the Indian subcontinent and surrounding areas during the Neolithic (maybe later) from around Iran. The J2b-L283 in Asia however, is certainly of more recent European origin.

    Some Z2432+ aDNA:
    1) I11480, from the Jiroft Culture (Eastern Iran), dated ~4,800ybp - J2b-Z2432>Y22893
    2) I4157, from Bustan, BMAC Culture, dated ~3,400ybp - J2b-Z2432
    3) I12458, from Loebanr, dated ~2,800ybp - J2b-Z2432>Y950
    4) I12982, from Loebanr, dated ~2,800ybp - J2b-Z2432>Y950>Y2155
    Ydna: J-ZS241

    mtDNA: T1a1l

    Maternal Ydna: E-V13>CTS5856*

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    Not really. The vast majority of Indian and Asian J2b2 is Z2432+ and not L283+ like European J2b2. Z2432 likely expanded into the Indian subcontinent and surrounding areas during the Neolithic (maybe later) from around Iran. The J2b-L283 in Asia however, is certainly of more recent European origin.

    Some Z2432+ aDNA:
    1) I11480, from the Jiroft Culture (Eastern Iran), dated ~4,800ybp - J2b-Z2432>Y22893
    2) I4157, from Bustan, BMAC Culture, dated ~3,400ybp - J2b-Z2432
    3) I12458, from Loebanr, dated ~2,800ybp - J2b-Z2432>Y950
    4) I12982, from Loebanr, dated ~2,800ybp - J2b-Z2432>Y950>Y2155
    A question, how much ev13 and r1b is found in the same regions of India where j2b is found?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ShpataEMadhe View Post
    A question, how much ev13 and r1b is found in the same regions of India where j2b is found?
    J2b is primarily found around Northern India, in this region E and R1b are found in frequencies below 1%. There are some tribes that may have up to 5% R1b however. E-V13 is practically non-existent in South Asia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    J2b is primarily found around Northern India, in this region E and R1b are found in frequencies below 1%. There are some tribes that may have up to 5% R1b however. E-V13 is practically non-existent in South Asia.
    That is odd. How much j2b percentage is found in that region of India?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ShpataEMadhe View Post
    That is odd. How much j2b percentage is found in that region of India?
    In India, J2b is most commonly found in the Shia Muslims whom have it at a percentage of 4.4%.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    In India, J2b is most commonly found in the Shia Muslims whom have it at a percentage of 4.4%.
    That is a lot for a short conquest, although the greeks did rule that region again later on "Greek rule (180 BC-10 AD)". I have questions

    1. Was J2b a MUCH bigger percentage in South albanians/macedonians/greeks who may have been part of Alexander the Greats army and also after him? This is the only way it would have so much more impact than ev13 or r1b in India

    2. What would explain the drastic change in j2b l283 numbers in South albania/macedonia/Greece? Why did they diminish so much?

    Who were these j2b l283 people? Did ev13 and R1b come over and expand later on? Could it be that ev13 came along with the romans and wiped out most j2b in these regions? I doubt balkan ev13 is roman but it is the only theory I can use which explains these j2b l283 numbers. Someone needs to explain j2b l283

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    Quote Originally Posted by ShpataEMadhe View Post
    That is a lot for a short conquest, although the greeks did rule that region again later on "Greek rule (180 BC-10 AD)". I have questions
    1. Was J2b a MUCH bigger percentage in South albanians/macedonians/greeks who may have been part of Alexander the Greats army and also after him? This is the only way it would have so much more impact than ev13 or r1b in India

    2. What would explain the drastic change in j2b l283 numbers in South albania/macedonia/Greece? Why did they diminish so much?

    Who were these j2b l283 people? Did ev13 and R1b come over and expand later on? Could it be that ev13 came along with the romans and wiped out most j2b in these regions? I doubt balkan ev13 is roman but it is the only theory I can use which explains these j2b l283 numbers. Someone needs to explain j2b l283
    The J2b in South Asia isn't from any kind of Greek or European conquest, they belong to J2b-Z2432 and not J2b-L283. L283 and Z2432 shared a common ancestor ~9,600 years ago. J2b-Z2432 has been present in the region since at least the Early Bronze Age and arrived from around Iran, this has been proven by aDNA.

    Haplogroup frequencies can change significantly due to many reasons. The vast majority of Balkan haplogroups have TMRCAs of around 2,000-1,500ybp due to bottlenecks which were likely caused by the drastic changes which were happening in the region during this time frame. Albanian J2b-L283 clades were also affected by this for the most part, with most clades seemingly having expanded from the north of Albania.

    Placing importance on frequency is illogical. aDNA, diversity and basal clade diversity are most important.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    The J2b in South Asia isn't from any kind of Greek or European conquest, they belong to J2b-Z2432 and not J2b-L283. L283 and Z2432 shared a common ancestor ~9,600 years ago. J2b-Z2432 has been present in the region since at least the Early Bronze Age and arrived from around Iran, this has been proven by aDNA.
    Haplogroup frequencies can change significantly due to many reasons. The vast majority of Balkan haplogroups have TMRCAs of around 2,000-1,500ybp due to bottlenecks which were likely caused by the drastic changes which were happening in the region during this time frame. Albanian J2b-L283 clades were also affected by this for the most part, with most clades seemingly having expanded from the north of Albania.
    Placing importance on frequency is illogical. aDNA, diversity and basal clade diversity are most important.
    How was this 9600 years ago worked out exactly? I mean the years they give to fossils and everything else I do not believe either, it all seems like a bit of a stretch. So 9600 years ago middle eastern men/families (could have been white from the beginning) moved over to the balkans and over time formed a big tribe? Or is it the other way round?

    As for 2,000-1,500ybp, were the romans the cause of this? Thousands of years ago, actually even hundreds of years ago inbreeding was common due to trust issues so each race was actually less mixed than they are today, does this factor into bottlenecks?

    I would like to know which tribe/group lived in Iran and ended up moving to northern albania (mostly north east/kosova according to modern numbers) and North India because so far the only 2 links I am aware of between albania and Iran/North India can be these:

    1. Alexander the greats army
    2. Osman conquest
    3. Roma gypsies

    You have ruled out the first 2 with tmrca 9600ybp and as far as I'm aware balkan roma gypsies do not often carry j2b l283 so if someone with better history knowledge than me on this subject can step in that'd be great

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by ShpataEMadhe View Post
    How was this 9600 years ago worked out exactly? I mean the years they give to fossils and everything else I do not believe either, it all seems like a bit of a stretch. So 9600 years ago middle eastern men/families (could have been white from the beginning) moved over to the balkans and over time formed a big tribe? Or is it the other way round?
    As for 2,000-1,500ybp, were the romans the cause of this? Thousands of years ago, actually even hundreds of years ago inbreeding was common due to trust issues so each race was actually less mixed than they are today, does this factor into bottlenecks?
    I would like to know which tribe/group lived in Iran and ended up moving to northern albania (mostly north east/kosova according to modern numbers) and North India because so far the only 2 links I am aware of between albania and Iran/North India can be these:
    1. Alexander the greats army
    2. Osman conquest
    3. Roma gypsies
    You have ruled out the first 2 with tmrca 9600ybp and as far as I'm aware balkan roma gypsies do not often carry j2b l283 so if someone with better history knowledge than me on this subject can step in that'd be great
    J2b L283 is a Caucasian haplogroup that most likely moved north through the Caucasus Mountains to what is today southern Russia/Steppe and was integrated into the westward Indo European expansions from there into Europe, probably Central Europe and into the Balkans with the Illyrians and closely related tribes. There is a mounting body of evidence using current samples and ancient samples (Russia, Croatia) that supports this migration path.
    https://phylogeographer.com/j-l283-t...sia-to-europe/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Polska View Post
    J2b L283 is a Caucasian haplogroup that most likely moved north through the Caucasus Mountains to what is today southern Russia/Steppe and was integrated into the westward Indo European expansions from there into Europe, probably Central Europe and into the Balkans with the Illyrians and closely related tribes. There is a mounting body of evidence using current samples and ancient samples (Russia, Croatia) that supports this migration path.
    https://phylogeographer.com/j-l283-t...sia-to-europe/

    I agree with this and i want to say,

    Its simmilar to what i said few pages back: "However, as we know oldest IE cultures were pretty much homogenous R1a or R1b, also by looking at all other evidences as earlier splits when going upward the genetic tree, by my theory J2b-L283 was some kind of North Caucasus population originally. Probably offshot from Zagros to Caucasus, giving that oldest J2b-M12* was found in Zagros mountains."


    By all so far given proofs M241 is probably Zagros Paleolithic, same as J2-M205. M241 clade is most likely Zagros expansion to Caucasus.


    Oldest J2b-M12* ancient DNA are from Zagros and earlier splits are all on both sides on Zagros while almost none existent in Caucasus.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    I agree with this and i want to say,

    Its simmilar to what i said few pages back: "However, as we know oldest IE cultures were pretty much homogenous R1a or R1b, also by looking at all other evidences as earlier splits when going upward the genetic tree, by my theory J2b-L283 was some kind of North Caucasus population originally. Probably offshot from Zagros to Caucasus, giving that oldest J2b-M12* was found in Zagros mountains."


    By all so far given proofs M241 is probably Zagros Paleolithic, same as J2-M205. M241 clade is most likely Zagros expansion to Caucasus.


    Oldest J2b-M12* ancient DNA are from Zagros and earlier splits are all on both sides on Zagros while almost none existent in Caucasus.
    Always enjoyed reading your posts, as well as those from Trojet, Dibran, and Aspurg. Good source of information on L283 for me.

    I can’t believe given the advancements in the phylogenetic tree, people still believe Alexander the Great spread J2b M241 to Iran or that J2b L283 originated in the Middle East. Takes 30 seconds to login to YFull and look at the YTree. It’s an overwhelmingly European haplogroup (L283) with only a few samples total outside of Europe.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    I have an interesting theory regarding how my PH1602 line may have wound up in southern Poland. They are from a village called Slopnice, which is in the Beskid Mountains in southern Poland near Slovakia. I was just reading about the Beskid Mountains today. The one thing that stood out was that the supposed origins of the name Beskid is either Illyrian or Thracian. Beskid is the same thing as bjeshkë in Albanian. I have traced my y line back to at least the year 900 in southern Poland, but not beyond. Many of the samples on the YFull YTree for PH1602 are from Serbia, Bulgaria, and Bosnia (along with Germany, Russia, and US). So I’m thinking there was potentially an ancient migration of Illyrians or closely related people to southern Poland from the Balkans. I’m wondering if there are any historical accounts of any such migration long ago?

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beskids

    Also, I did find this link regarding the Púchov culture that was nearby and influenced by Illyrian culture (about 2200 years ago):

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Púchov_culture

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    Quote Originally Posted by Polska View Post
    I have an interesting theory regarding how my PH1602 line may have wound up in southern Poland. They are from a village called Slopnice, which is in the Beskid Mountains in southern Poland near Slovakia. I was just reading about the Beskid Mountains today. The one thing that stood out was that the supposed origins of the name Beskid is either Illyrian or Thracian. Beskid is the same thing as bjeshkë in Albanian. I have traced my y line back to at least the year 900 in southern Poland, but not beyond. Many of the samples on the YFull YTree for PH1602 are from Serbia, Bulgaria, and Bosnia (along with Germany, Russia, and US). So I’m thinking there was potentially an ancient migration of Illyrians or closely related people to southern Poland from the Balkans. I’m wondering if there are any historical accounts of any such migration long ago?

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beskids

    Also, I did find this link regarding the Púchov culture that was nearby and influenced by Illyrian culture (about 2200 years ago):

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Púchov_culture
    Could it be related to the Goral people?

    Goral folk dress compared to Alb:





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    Quote Originally Posted by Polska View Post
    J2b L283 is a Caucasian haplogroup that most likely moved north through the Caucasus Mountains to what is today southern Russia/Steppe and was integrated into the westward Indo European expansions from there into Europe, probably Central Europe and into the Balkans with the Illyrians and closely related tribes. There is a mounting body of evidence using current samples and ancient samples (Russia, Croatia) that supports this migration path.
    https://phylogeographer.com/j-l283-t...sia-to-europe/
    So did l283 come into the balkans after ilyrians were already established there or before? If they came WITH other ilyrian haplogroups from the same region at the same time modern y dna doesn't seem to back this up. J2b l283 has a stronghold in North East albania/kosova but is depleted in regions surrounding

    Which other haplogroup sub clades came WITH j2b l283 to balkans at the same time? They must have a similar ratio to what they had in today's genetics for it to be viable. So if it was 2:1 j2b and whatever else it has to be similar today for it to make sense

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    Quote Originally Posted by ShpataEMadhe View Post
    So did l283 come into the balkans after ilyrians were already established there or before? If they came WITH other ilyrian haplogroups from the same region at the same time modern y dna doesn't seem to back this up. J2b l283 has a stronghold in North East albania/kosova but is depleted in regions surrounding

    Which other haplogroup sub clades came WITH j2b l283 to balkans at the same time? They must have a similar ratio to what they had in today's genetics for it to be viable. So if it was 2:1 j2b and whatever else it has to be similar today for it to make sense
    You and these ratios....

    Ratios mean nothing, a haplogroups frequency can change within a couple of generations. You've still got a lot of reading to do.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Could it be related to the Goral people?

    Goral folk dress compared to Alb:





    Vs

    Yes, my family were Gorale. As you’ve pointed out, they largely descend from migratory Vlachs who moved north into the Carpathian Mtns of Southern Poland, Slovakia, Czech Republic, and Ukraine. I was convinced this was the source of our PH1602 for many years since it is a Balkan haplogroup (also, there is a Vlach from the mountains of northern Greece who did the BigY and is PH1602). The only problem is that I have a close match with a family in Poland that likely goes back to the 900s, which predates the Vlach migrations to the Carpathians. We could still be Vlachs, but I’m open to the possibility of being related to Illyrians or closely related group who settled in the Carpathians prior to Vlach migration.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Polska View Post
    Yes, my family were Gorale. As you’ve pointed out, they largely descend from migratory Vlachs who moved north into the Carpathian Mtns of Southern Poland, Slovakia, Czech Republic, and Ukraine. I was convinced this was the source of our PH1602 for many years since it is a Balkan haplogroup (also, there is a Vlach from the mountains of northern Greece who did the BigY and is PH1602). The only problem is that I have a close match with a family in Poland that likely goes back to the 900s, which predates the Vlach migrations to the Carpathians. We could still be Vlachs, but I’m open to the possibility of being related to Illyrians or closely related group who settled in the Carpathians prior to Vlach migration.
    Anyway, Vlachs are descendants of a fusion between Romans and native Balkanide people.
    Closest natural living language to the Albanian, is the Balkanik romance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    The J2b in South Asia isn't from any kind of Greek or European conquest, they belong to J2b-Z2432 and not J2b-L283. L283 and Z2432 shared a common ancestor ~9,600 years ago. J2b-Z2432 has been present in the region since at least the Early Bronze Age and arrived from around Iran, this has been proven by aDNA.

    Haplogroup frequencies can change significantly due to many reasons. The vast majority of Balkan haplogroups have TMRCAs of around 2,000-1,500ybp due to bottlenecks which were likely caused by the drastic changes which were happening in the region during this time frame. Albanian J2b-L283 clades were also affected by this for the most part, with most clades seemingly having expanded from the north of Albania.

    Placing importance on frequency is illogical. aDNA, diversity and basal clade diversity are most important.
    Thank you for your info. Anyway, J2b2 L283 is still present there, right? Probably it has an Balkanik origin.

    We should not overestimate this "founding efect" theory. So far we have only two bronze age haplotypes found in Balkans, at the areas where probably lived proto Illyrians, J2b2 and R1b Z2103. Today we find out that these two haplo are two from the three main Albanian haplos. The other most Albanian frequent haplo is Ev13, whose parent haplo is found at the Neolithic area which was later known as Illyria. Are all these coincidences !? It's kinda strange...

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Quote Originally Posted by Piro Ilir View Post
    Thank you for your info. Anyway, J2b2 L283 is still present there, right? Probably it has an Balkanik origin.

    We should not overestimate this "founding efect" theory. So far we have only two bronze age haplotypes found in Balkans, at the areas where probably lived proto Illyrians, J2b2 and R1b Z2103. Today we find out that these two haplo are two from the three main Albanian haplos. The other most Albanian frequent haplo is Ev13, whose parent haplo is found at the Neolithic area which was later known as Illyria. Are all these coincidences !? It's kinda strange...
    ??

    you have this in the balkans ( western side ) since the early bronze age

    R1b1a1a2a2~Z2103.
    G2a2a1 ...................the main ydna from period above
    C1a2


    I2a2 is more eastern balkans for same period as well as H2 and T1a

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    Quote Originally Posted by Polska View Post
    Yes, my family were Gorale. (...) I was convinced this was the source of our PH1602 (...) Vlach migration.
    Very interesting story, really.
    I come from Romania and my final subclade is PH3514 - according to YSEQ. This is a subclade of PH1602, as it can be seen here.
    It appears to have spread from the Balkans and it's probably related to a kind of mix Illyrians - Thracians - Vlachs.
    Science will surely come up soon with new data as more people will do the tests.

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    Quote Originally Posted by telsh View Post
    Very interesting story, really.
    I come from Romania and my final subclade is PH3514 - according to YSEQ. This is a subclade of PH1602, as it can be seen here.
    It appears to have spread from the Balkans and it's probably related to a kind of mix Illyrians - Thracians - Vlachs.
    Science will surely come up soon with new data as more people will do the tests.
    Agreed. Maybe you will join us on the YFull Tree sometime? Would be good to have a Romanian on there! I have a distant match from Ukraine who is now doing the BigY and eventually YFull analysis, so a Ukrainian should be on the tree soon. Also just added a Russian recently. PH502 I believe, downstream from PH1602.

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