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Thread: J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by telsh View Post
    Very interesting story, really.
    I come from Romania and my final subclade is PH3514 - according to YSEQ. This is a subclade of PH1602, as it can be seen here.
    It appears to have spread from the Balkans and it's probably related to a kind of mix Illyrians - Thracians - Vlachs.
    Science will surely come up soon with new data as more people will do the tests.
    Well.....there must have been others as this sample was a 7 years old boy....cannot breed

    Y-SNP analysis of I4331, J2b2a-L283, Bronze Age Croatia – Mathieson et al. 2018


    I4331 position under J2b2a-L283

    New DNA paper from Mathieson et al. 2018, The Genomic History of Southeastern Europe, gave us ancient DNA data from 225 individuals who lived in southeastern Europe and surroundings. Supplementary information from the paper states one of the sites analyzed was the Veliki Vanik burial mound, which is located near the town of Vrgorac in Split-Dalmatia County, in southern Croatia. Individual I4331,dated 1631-1521 calBCE (~3591 ybp), was 5-7 year old subadult male with Y-DNA haplogroup J2b2a-L283. By analyzing the BAM file (raw data), I have assigned him more specifically: J-CTS3617,Y15058(xZ40053,Z38241)
    For spreadsheet of checked SNPs, see here.
    Observations


    • I4331 is likely fully developed J2b2a-CTS3617,Y15058, which according to YFull YTree v6.01, has a TMRCA of 4000 ybp, and lived only ca. 400 years after its diversification. Therefore, this is the clearest evidence that the expansion of this sub-branch very likely happened in the same region he lived in (western Balkans).
    • Currently members from J-M241 project in the J-CTS3617,Y15058 sub-branch mainly come from the Balkans, central and northwestern Europe.
    • Along with I4331, there was an adult female in the same burial mound. Their genomes possess considerable amount of Steppe admixture and have mtDNA that has been found in the Steppe area. Combined with the fact that to date we have no J2b2a-L283 from Neolithic Europe, as well as other data, a Bronze Age (Indo-European) expansion is likely.
    Last edited by torzio; 27-12-19 at 09:37.
    Fathers mtdna T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna T1a1e
    Sons mtdna K1a4o
    Mum paternal line R1b-S8172
    Grandmum paternal side I1d1-P109
    Wife paternal line R1a-Z282

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    [QUOTE = Polska; 593445] Имам интересна теория относно това как моята линия PH1602 може да се е навила в Южна Полша. Те са от село, наречено Слопнице, което е в планините Бескид в Южна Полша, близо до Словакия. Току-що четох за Бескидските планини днес. Единственото, което се открои, беше, че предполагаемият произход на името Бескид е или илирийски, или тракийски. Бескид е същото нещо като bjeshkëна албански. Проследих моята линия назад най-малко до 900 година в Южна Полша, но не и след това. Много от пробите на YFull YTree за PH1602 са от Сърбия, България и Босна (заедно с Германия, Русия и САЩ). Затова мисля, че е имало потенциално древна миграция на илири или на близки хора в Южна Полша от Балканите. Интересно ми е дали има исторически сведения за подобна миграция отдавна?

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beskids

    Също така открих тази връзка относно пуховската култура, която е била наблизо и е била повлияна от илирийската култура (преди около 2200 години):

    https: //en.m.wikipedia .org / wiki / Púchov_culture [/ QUOTE]


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bessi

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    Quote Originally Posted by Piro Ilir View Post
    Thank you for your info. Anyway, J2b2 L283 is still present there, right? Probably it has an Balkanik origin.

    We should not overestimate this "founding efect" theory. So far we have only two bronze age haplotypes found in Balkans, at the areas where probably lived proto Illyrians, J2b2 and R1b Z2103. Today we find out that these two haplo are two from the three main Albanian haplos. The other most Albanian frequent haplo is Ev13, whose parent haplo is found at the Neolithic area which was later known as Illyria. Are all these coincidences !? It's kinda strange...
    Well there are a couple L283+ samples from South Asia. There is a J2b-Y146401 sample from Kerala, India, on Yfull. It's clear his paternal ancestry is from the Balkans as there is an Albanian who is Y146400. Though L283 accounts for less than 1% of the J2b2 there as far as I know. ~99% (don't know the exact percentage) is Z2432.

    There isn't a "founding effect theory", it is a fact that Balkan clades went through founder effects and bottlenecks. The vast majority of E-V13 present in Albanians is CTS1273+, the TMRCA and distribution of this clade suggests that it was involved with the expansion of IE speakers from Eastern Europe during the Bronze Age. And so, the E-V13 present in the Balkans today isn't from the Neolithic farmers of the region. The discovery of E-L618 in Dalmatia is only important because it tells us that V13 itself may have originated in the Balkans.
    Ydna: J-ZS241

    mtDNA: T1a1l

    Maternal Ydna: E-V13>CTS5856*

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    Well there are a couple L283+ samples from South Asia. There is a J2b-Y146401 sample from Kerala, India, on Yfull. It's clear his paternal ancestry is from the Balkans as there is an Albanian who is Y146400. Though L283 accounts for less than 1% of the J2b2 there as far as I know. ~99% (don't know the exact percentage) is Z2432.
    Even the new J-Y146401 is actually with further origin from Syria, so J-L283 in India seems to be basically inexistent. However, I agree with you that this clade is most definitely of southern European origin considering the upstream Albanian sample and the diversity of the whole J-Z597 branch in the Balkans. J-Y146401 likely migrated to the Levant area during the Bronze Age collapse.

    New development in regards to I4331, the BA ancient sample from southern Croatia:

    Thanks to higher resolution tests (Big Y-700), it was discovered that SNP FT92472 is at J-Z38240 level. I4331 is FT92472+ and negative on SNPs for the two subclades. I couldn't find any shared SNPs with the Norwegian sample either, so I4331 is at YFull's J-Z38240*: https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z38240/

    This is fascinating because he lived only 200 years after J-Z38240 TMRCA estimate, so J-Z38240 itself was very likely born in the same region. Among others, it solidifies the idea that the "Etruscan" J-CTS6190 is a migrant from accros the Adriatic.
    Y-DNA: J-L283
    Maternal Y-DNA: E-V13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    Even the new J-Y146401 is actually with further origin from Syria, so J-L283 in India seems to be basically inexistent. However, I agree with you that this clade is most definitely of southern European origin considering the upstream Albanian sample and the diversity of the whole J-Z597 branch in the Balkans. J-Y146401 likely migrated to the Levant area during the Bronze Age collapse.

    New development in regards to I4331, the BA ancient sample from southern Croatia:

    Thanks to higher resolution tests (Big Y-700), it was discovered that SNP FT92472 is at J-Z38240 level. I4331 is FT92472+ and negative on SNPs for the two subclades. I couldn't find any shared SNPs with the Norwegian sample either, so I4331 is at YFull's J-Z38240*: https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z38240/

    This is fascinating because he lived only 200 years after J-Z38240 TMRCA estimate, so J-Z38240 itself was very likely born in the same region. Among others, it solidifies the idea that the "Etruscan" J-CTS6190 is a migrant from accros the Adriatic.
    Thank you for the update on our Croatian cousin, Trojet!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    New development in regards to I4331, the BA ancient sample from southern Croatia:

    Thanks to higher resolution tests (Big Y-700), it was discovered that SNP FT92472 is at J-Z38240 level. I4331 is FT92472+ and negative on SNPs for the two subclades. I couldn't find any shared SNPs with the Norwegian sample either, so I4331 is at YFull's J-Z38240*: https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z38240/

    This is fascinating because he lived only 200 years after J-Z38240 TMRCA estimate, so J-Z38240 itself was very likely born in the same region. Among others, it solidifies the idea that the "Etruscan" J-CTS6190 is a migrant from accros the Adriatic.
    Interesting how I4331 lived only 200 years after the TMRCA of his clade, this should mean that Z38240 did indeed originate around modern day Croatia. I wonder how Z38240* ended up in Northern Norway though, guess it has to do with the Romans or perhaps something earlier.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Polska View Post
    Always enjoyed reading your posts, as well as those from Trojet, Dibran, and Aspurg. Good source of information on L283 for me.

    I can’t believe given the advancements in the phylogenetic tree, people still believe Alexander the Great spread J2b M241 to Iran or that J2b L283 originated in the Middle East. Takes 30 seconds to login to YFull and look at the YTree. It’s an overwhelmingly European haplogroup (L283) with only a few samples total outside of Europe.
    I am always for rational conversation.
    This clown is luckily banned, and we wont have to bother with his Alexander the Great M241 in India and similar stupidity anymore. Especially since he is throwing theories like selling vegetables on bazaar but then he is afraid to test himself.


    Anyways, For me it was really puzzling that both Europeans and Indians share M241 SNP, i was always wondering did M241 originate in Caucasus and then spread to India with Indo-Europeans like Sanskrit speakers and Iranians or its actually some Zagros Native (same what i claim for J2-M205). As we know 99 % of people are pushing Caucasus theory but i think this theory is fish on a dry. Many people are saying that J2b has origin in Caucasus. But this does not hold water anymore.

    Narasimhan et al ancient J2b-M241 samples are yet oldest M241 ancient samples found and they belong to Pre-IE cultures. Also as i understood the research, even tho i have to read it few more times because there is so much material and i really didn't pay much attention. But as i understood Indian M241 is more connected to the pre-IE populations as Dravidians in the south and not more recent IE arrivals like Sanskrit speakers.

    Basically what this means is that closest brother of J2b2-L283, which is J2b2-Z2432 and btw much older brother since it has 3000 years higher TMRCA, is native for East Zagros, Iran, and India, and is of pre-IE origin.

    On the west side of Zagros there is J-Z2453, its brother clade of European J-L283 and Indian J-Z2432 and it has higher TMRCA and diversity then Indian and European subclades together, formed 13800 ybp, TMRCA 13500 ybp.
    Its exclusively Middle Eastern subclade of J2b2, and its more diverse then Indian and European J2b2 together even tho Indian is more diverse then European L283 younger one.

    Also first brother clade of J2-M241 is J2-M205, with TMRCA around 6000 years and Middle Eastern Fertile Crescent expansion and probably same as M241 is of Late Paleolithic and Early Mesolithic origin from Zagros mountains.

    Also some people are trying to connect J2b-M241 or J2b-M205 to Iranians which is funny to me. In Iran there was major study, only about 1 % of Iranians are J2b-M241, and most of these fall into Afro-Iranian ethnic group, meaning they are probably some separated clade that spread among Iranian black Africans.

    Also J2-M205 is around 1 % in Iran, which is usual percentage for J2-M205, but the deal is that majority of these are Iranian Amenians and we know that we have one Armenian cluster into very exclusive Bronze Age Fertile Crescent Middle Eastern J2-M205.

    I would also like to add that Caucasus and East Anatolia were heavily tested for ancient DNA, and few of J2 samples were all J2a-M410. The only J2b-M12* sample so brotherclade of M241 and M205 is found in center of Zagros mountains in first world farmers 10000 BCE. Probably of earlier Zagros hunter-gatherer origin.

    So by all given facts by now, East Zagros and Indian J2-M241 is of pre-IE origin and is probably Zagros native. J2-M205 is of same hunter gatherer / first farmers Zagros origin but its MRCA expanded in Middle East Bronze Age. And J-Z2453 from Middle East found west of Zagros is of same origin.


    By this J2-L283 is Zagros expansion to Caucasus, where he (TMRCA 5500 ybp) probably become some native north Caucasian population and then it was picked up by R1b tribes from oldest IE cultures and with them as IE expanded to Bronze Age Europe.

    Migration from Zagros to Caucasus probably took place somewhere around 6000-8000 years ago giving that L283 TMRCA is 5500 ybp and his closest relatives are all around Zagros mountains and virtually none existent in Caucasus


    If i made any mistake anywhere which is possible please anyone correct me, i typed this only for the sake of further debate.


    Here is table with Narasimhan ancient DNA and many more of them - https://science.sciencemag.org/highw...Tables1-5.xlsx

    Can we confirm that oldest J2b-M241 samples from this research belongs to pre-IE culture ?

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Something like this:

    Also note that oldest and only J2b-M12* ancient DNA is found in center of this circle, its 10 000 years old.




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    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    Something like this:

    Also note that oldest and only J2b-M12* ancient DNA is found in center of this circle, its 10 000 years old.




    Yes, I agree with your map. Of course I’m just parroting what others, who are better versed than me on this subject, have been saying for years. I think it’s worth noting that Maciamo Hay, who started this site, long ago postulated that J2b M205 came from the Zagros area and that J2b L283 spread to Europe via the Caucasus Mtns and the Steppe with the Indo European westward migrations. It’s all part of his article on J2 here on Eupedia. He was way ahead of just about everyone. It’s one of the reasons I like this site and this forum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Polska View Post
    Yes, I agree with your map. Of course I’m just parroting what others, who are better versed than me on this subject, have been saying for years. I think it’s worth noting that Maciamo Hay, who started this site, long ago postulated that J2b M205 came from the Zagros area and that J2b L283 spread to Europe via the Caucasus Mtns and the Steppe with the Indo European westward migrations. It’s all part of his article on J2 here on Eupedia. He was way ahead of just about everyone. It’s one of the reasons I like this site and this forum.

    Well yes, regarding Maciamo, he was probably the first person who in details tried to explain all haplogroups and their sublcades.
    I have exceptional respect for his work and courage to try to connect and explain all these genetical dots.
    Many people maybe detected some mistake or wrong theory of Maciamo somewhere, and they were first to criticise but then none of them tried or dared to do such a enormous work and explanation for all these possibilities.

    Maciamo was for sure right when he connected L283 to Indo-European expansion while others were in that time connecting E-v13 and J2b-L283 to Neolithic Europe.
    However, many of Maciamo texts are outdated and need to be additionally worked on. I hope that Maciamo is well and that he will continue to update his articles and his work regarding Y-DNA exploration. Also he often kinda gives possibility to more then one theory.

    You are right Maciamo said it here:

    "No Neolithic sample from Central or South Asia has been tested to date, but the present geographic distribution of haplogroup J2 suggests that it could initially have dispersed during the Neolithic from the Zagros mountains and northern Mesopotamia across the Iranian plateau to South Asia and Central Asia, and across the Caucasus to Russia (Volga-Ural). The first expansion probably correlated with the diffusion of domesticated of cattle and goats (starting c. 8000-9000 BCE), rather than with the development of cereal agriculture in the Levant."
    However, here he speaks about J2, J2-M172 (J2a + J2b), what Maciamo says here is that J2-M172 is entirely from Zagros. I have to admit i didn't explore J2a enough to make a decent opinion. Also J1 haplogroup. There is possibility that when GHIJK haplogroup diversified that J1 and J2a were dominant in Caucasus while J2b was more dominant more south in Zagros mountains.
    There were both Neolithic J1 and J2a samples found in Caucasus, but also J2a in ancient Zagros, and these haplogroups are found in decent percentages in modern Caucasus population, in contrast to J2b which seems to be Zagros expansion. Then further in J2 text Maciamo debates about Caucasus J2a TMRCA and that it all might be recent arrival from Zagros mountains, and i will investigate this in future but for now i dont have enough material to comment on it. Also Maciamo in his J2 text makes many Kura-Araxes hypothesis, but i am not sure that any of these Kura-Araxes theories were actually proven.

    Also he mixes J2b1 and J2b2 entire time, as many of threads and people in Eupedia did for years. In J2b-L283 text the J2b1 is mentioned entire time even tho their migration path is different since probably 10 000 years ago.

    The vast majority of J2b lineages belong to J2b2 and its subclades. While J2b* and J2b1 lineages are mostly restricted to the Caucasus, eastern Anatolia and the Balkans, J2b2 is found throughout Europe, in the Pontic-Caspian Steppe, in Central Asia and in South Asia, particularly in India. Although J2b2 itself was formed 14,000 years ago, almost all European J2b2 members belong to the L283 branch and share a common patrilineal ancestor who lived 6,000 years ago. What's more, 99% of them fall under the Z628 (aka Z597) clade, with a shared common ancestor who lived only 4,500 years ago. This Z628 clade is also found in India, Armenia and the Levant, among others.
    J2b1 mentioned here is for sure not restricted to the Caucasus neither eastern Anatolia but its so to say none-existent in Caucasus and eastern Anatolia, it can barely be found in Caucasus and Anatolia but rather as already concluded long ago, it had exclusive Bronze Age Middle Eastern Fertile Crescent expansion.

    Indians mentioned here under Z628 are probably European expansion giving that they share TMRCA of 3200 ybp with Europeans like Albanians, they could indeed be from Alexander the Great army : ) Also their closest brother clades are in Brasil and Colombia which could indicate European expansion to American continent.


    The most likely hypothesis is that J2b2a1 (L283) penetrated into the Pontic Steppe region during the Neolithic or Chalcolithic period, by crossing the Caucasus from western Iran, then migrated to the Volga-Ural region, where it was absorbed by the R1a-Z93 tribes in the Early Bronze Age. As a minor lineage within the R1a-Z93 dominant populations, it would have expanded from the Volga-Ural region to Central and South Asia with the Indo-Aryan invasions approximately from 4,300 to 3,500 years ago. Other J2b lineages could have ended up in the Balkans during a number of Steppe invasions from the Bronze Age until the Middle Ages.


    I agree with this just what in the world made Maciamo conclude that J2b-L283 expanded to Europe with R1a-Z93 tribes ? After crossing Caucasus from Zagros mountains J2b2-L283 most likely spread to Europe with R1b tribes. There are strong indications that J2b2-L283 spread with R1b Bronze Age Indo-European tribes.

    Furthermore they for sure didnt cross from "western Iran" as Maciamo says, simply because Iran didnt exist back then. I understand that he is talking about modern Iranian territory but that is whole another thing. Actually best would be to use term Zagros mountains, since its obvious that this mountain is what we are talking about.

    Also I agree with Bronze Age J2b-L283 migration but Middle Ages ? I dont believe this. TMRCA, diversification, and Bronze Age Dalmatian ancient DNA of L283 clearly indicate Bronze Age expansion.


    Another conceivable possibility is that a minority of J2b2-L283 accompanied R1b-M269 from the Caucasus region and migrated to the Volga-Ural region in the early Bronze Age, propagating with them the Proto-Indo-European language and bronze technology to the Caspian steppe before the expansion of this new culture to Central and South Asia. The drawback of this hypothesis is that it doesn't explain why R1b lineages strongly outnumber J2b2 in Europe but not in South Asia.
    This is the correct theory regarding L283 and its IE expansion to Europe. While South Asian J2b2-Z2432 is formed 9700 ybp, meaning they are distant to European J2b2-L283 9700 years, and that South-Asian J2b2-Z2432 is of Pre-IE origin like Dravidians. While Indian IE speakers are R1a.

    Both J2b1 and J2b2-L283 are also found at high frequency in Greece and in regions that used to be part of the ancient Greek world (Ionia, Magna Graecia). However they are almost absent from Crete (where J2a1 lineages are dominant). J2b was also not found among Neolithic Anatolian or European farmers, and is absent from central Anatolia. This suggests that J2b was not associated with the Neolithic Greeks nor with the Minoan civilisation, but may well have come to Greece with the Mycenaeans, who also appear to have been pushed out of the Steppe by the advance of the Srubna culture. As a result, both the Illyrians and the Mycenaeans (and possibly the Albanians) would be descended from Middle to Late Bronze Age Steppe migrants to the Southeast Europe, in a migration that was particularly rich in J2b lineages from the Middle Volga region. That would explain why it has been so hard to identify R1a or R1b lineages that could be of Illyrian or Mycenaean origin. The only variety of R1b that is found at reasonably high frequencies in Southeast Europe, and particularly in Greece, is R1b-Z2103, the branch found in the eastern Yamna culture, including the Volga-Ural region.

    I agree with almost everything said here, and this theory sounds most plausible to me. Also i agree that J2b-L283 was most likely spread to Europe after joining with Yamna R1b-Z2103 tribes. However Maciamo again mentions J2b1 here under L283 text. J2b1 has formed date 16 000 years and had completely other migration route. J2b1 expanded in Bronze Age Middle East and expanded to Europe thru Phoenicians, Canaanites and Roman Empire, while J2b-L283 with Bronze Age Indo-Europeans.




    Regarding J2b1:

    J2b1's origins remain unclear, but it probably originated in the South Caucasus and/or Iran and might have spread to the Levant, Cyprus and Greece with the Kura-Araxes culture during the Bronze Age. The branch found in the western Balkans (Y22069) is distinct from the East Mediterranean and Caucasian branch. It seems to have formed 6,000 years ago, but its TMRCA is very young at 900 years before present, suggesting a medieval founder effect.
    J2b1 originated just as all J2b most likely in Zagros mountains where oldest and only J2b* ancient DNA was found.
    Again, J2b1 did not originate in Iran because Iran did not exist back then. Oldest J2b* ancient DNA is found in Zagros mountains and about the same distance and very close either to Baghdad in west or Tehran in east. In Iran as mentioned above J2b2 is almost none existent and the 1 % there seems to go mostly into group spread among Iranian Africans. While J2-M205 in Iran is mostly found among Iranian Armenians. Really neither J2b-L283 neither J2b-M205 cannot be connected to Iranian people but rather to Zagros mountains which is only partially part of modern western Iran and that is the only reason why Iran is mentioned.

    Also this text about J2b1 is really old and outdated now. Maciamo says Y22069 in Balkans is distinct from East Mediterranean and Caucasian branches. Maciamo based this theory upon outdated and wrong Yfull tree, where Balkan Y22069 was wrongly positioned in Yfull, just the same as it is wrongly positioned in main Eupedia J2 phylogenetic tree as it can be seen in article.

    With Yfull update Y22069 was confirmed PF7321+, CTS1969+, YP51+, and Y22075+
    These are all major SNP that Y22069 shares with Middle Easterners like Palestinians where biggest diversity of CTS1969 is found atm.

    Balkan Y22059 shares most of these SNP also with French, Italian, and Spanish samples. But also Greek and Albanian ones like CTS1969 SNP.

    Italian, Spanish and French samples share PF7321+, CTS1969+, YP51+, and Y22075+ SNPs with Balkan and Palestine and other Middle Eastern nations like Qatar, Jordan, and so on. And other Mediterranean populations like Greeks are yet to be uploaded to Yfull but most likely they are also CTS1969. So Balkan Y22059 is not more distant or different then any other Mediterranean J2-M205.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    Something like this:

    Also note that oldest and only J2b-M12* ancient DNA is found in center of this circle, its 10 000 years old.




    About this map is important to note that few of these subclades are closer one to another. They are distant 10 000 to 16 000 years one from another actually.

    European L283 and Indian Z2432 have TMRCA 9700 ybp. European L283, Indian Z2432 and Middle Eastern Z2453 have TMRCA 13800 YBP.
    And European L283, Indian Z2432, Middle Eastern Z2453, and Middle Eastern M205 have TMRCA 15800 ybp.

    So by formed date none of this subclades is closer one to another then 9700 years going by Yfull L283 formed date. So Indian and European clades are closest with difference 9700 years, their MRCA was most likely Zagros mountaineer where one of his descendant tribes expanded north (L283), and one south (Z2432) most early 9700 years ago.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    Something like this:
    Also note that oldest and only J2b-M12* ancient DNA is found in center of this circle, its 10 000 years old.
    I generally agree with this map, but I don't think J-L283 was that far north. IMO, it likely migrated around the northern shores of the Black Sea. As previously reported here, the new Armenian J-L283* is actually negative for ~7 SNPs at current J-L283 level, so the split with the European branches, and the TMRCA of J-L283, should be around 6000 ybp. This makes it very likely that it migrated to Europe sometime after 6000 ybp, but no later than 4400 ybp (J-Z597 TMRCA). And it's possible that it expanded into the Balkans/Italy independently from an R1b clade, perhaps even preceding it. To me the J-Z600 branch, and more specifically J-Z597, seems pretty Western Balkan/Adriatic, so it was probably already in the region at the time of its TMRCA. Some argue that YFull ages can be around 15% underestimated, under which scenario the J-Z597 TMRCA should be ~5000 ybp. These Early Bronze Age Tumuli from Montenegro are very interesting. I hope they can eventually get aDNA. If not some R1b-M269 clade, J-L283 (J-Z597?) would be my next best guess: http://oldeuropeanculture.blogspot.c...luses.html?m=1

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    I generally agree with this map, but I don't think J-L283 was that far north. IMO, it likely migrated around the northern shores of the Black Sea. As previously reported here, the new Armenian J-L283* is actually negative for ~ 7 SNPs at current J-L283 level, so the split with the European branches, and the TMRCA of J-L283, should be around 6000 ybp. This makes it very likely that it migrated to Europe sometime after 6000 ybp, but no later than 4400 ybp (J-Z597 TMRCA). And it's possible that it expanded into the Balkans/Italy independently from an R1b clade, perhaps even preceding it. To me the J-Z600 branch, and more specifically J-Z597, seems pretty Western Balkan/Adriatic, so it was probably already in the area at the time of its TMRCA. Some argue that YFull ages can be around 15% underestimated, under which scenario the J-Z597 TMRCA should be ~5000 ybp. These Early Bronze Age Tumuli from Montenegro are very interesting. I hope they can eventually get aDNA. If not some R1b-M269 clade, J-L283 (J-Z597?) would be my next best guess: http://oldeuropeanculture.blogspot.c...luses.html?m=1

    Thank you Trojet! You are right, i have just made lines without any precision.
    Here i redone it only for J2-L283, i hope this is probably more realistic.


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    This just reminded me of that tool that people were hyping not long ago, the Phylogeographer, somehow it calculates that L283 went strait from West Middle East to Anatolia and to Europe which would be Neolithic farmer route. There is no need to say that this is completely wrong. In 8000 BCE this specific part where J-M241 is shown was dominated by E1b tribes, probably by first time leaving Africa and conquering Middle East. E1b-V13 is probably their expansion giving that Natufians are oldest out of Africa E1b found. Furthermore West Middle East was dominated by E1b and T1 tribes since Neolithic to Bronze Age where J1 and J2 seems to conquer the territory from direction of Zagros mountains in time of Early Bronze Age or a bit earlier. This can easily be seen by checking the ancient DNA in this zone.

    Phylogeographer on J-L283:



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    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    E1b-V13 is probably their expansion giving that Natufians are oldest out of Africa E1b found. Furthermore West Middle East was dominated by E1b and T1 tribes since Neolithic to Bronze Age where J1 and J2 seems to conquer the territory from direction of Zagros mountains in time of Early Bronze Age or a bit earlier. This can easily be seen by checking the ancient DNA in this zone.

    Phylogeographer on J-L283:
    No, Natufians were not earliest E1b1b's out of Africa, Iberomaurusians already had stronger Eurasian than "Ancestral North African". So E1b1b must have been wandering around the Middle East before that. Also because Iranians have E-M215+, M35- that is unrelated to Somalian (of Arabian origins) E-V16!! If Iranian is V16+ then V16 is not African at all.

    Phylogeographer generally is of little use.
    Last edited by Aspurg; 05-01-20 at 00:59.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    I generally agree with this map, but I don't think J-L283 was that far north. IMO, it likely migrated around the northern shores of the Black Sea. As previously reported here, the new Armenian J-L283* is actually negative for ~7 SNPs at current J-L283 level, so the split with the European branches, and the TMRCA of J-L283, should be around 6000 ybp. This makes it very likely that it migrated to Europe sometime after 6000 ybp, but no later than 4400 ybp (J-Z597 TMRCA). And it's possible that it expanded into the Balkans/Italy independently from an R1b clade, perhaps even preceding it. To me the J-Z600 branch, and more specifically J-Z597, seems pretty Western Balkan/Adriatic, so it was probably already in the region at the time of its TMRCA. Some argue that YFull ages can be around 15% underestimated, under which scenario the J-Z597 TMRCA should be ~5000 ybp. These Early Bronze Age Tumuli from Montenegro are very interesting. I hope they can eventually get aDNA. If not some R1b-M269 clade, J-L283 (J-Z597?) would be my next best guess: http://oldeuropeanculture.blogspot.c...luses.html?m=1
    The link you’ve provided is very interesting to me, especially the part regarding the silver axe. My family is many generations (120 years) separated from life in the Carpathian Mountains in Poland (we’re all from Arizona), but everyone still displays the CIUPAGA (pronounced CHOO-PAGA) in their homes. We usually have them mounted on the wall as a reminder of our roots in the mountains of Poland. These ciupagas are very similar to the silver axe mentioned in your link.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shepherd's_axe

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