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Thread: J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

  1. #476
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    J was in fact already present in Europe prior to the Bronze Age.

    J2 has been found in multiple Neolithic European sites:
    1) J2a-S11842 from Neolithic Italy
    2) J2a-Y29673 from Neolithic Italy
    3) J2a-Z6048 from Neolithic Austria, Linear Pottery Culture
    4) J2a-SK1363 from Neolithic Croatia, Sopot Culture
    5) J2a-Z6055 from Neolithic Hungary, Lengyel Culture

    2 J1samples have also been found:
    1) J1-YSC1262+ from Mesolithic Russia
    2) J1-L255+ from Mesolithic Russia

    That's true, there was few Neolithic ambiguous J2a samples. Even East European J1 samples that you mentioned.
    However, they are few isolated samples in minority among majority of other haplogroups, and few drops dont make a rain : )
    Ok, regarding these specific branches of J2a, we can assume they migrated to Europe since Neolithic.
    J seems to spread to both West Middle East and Europe in time of Bronze Age or later, at least majority except few ambiguous J2a subclades which seems to migrate earlier regarding Europe.

    Now of course, when we say J or rather J-M304, here we include all J1 and J2 subclades. But each major subclade has its own story and probably different migration time and place.
    But for now as it seems most of J subclades spread in Bronze Age from Caucasus and Zagros mountains and few of them earlier like Neolithic J2a subclades found in Europe.


    Also note that rest of J2a subclades also probably spread in Bronze Age, some of them even with Indo-Europeans and later, while almost entire J1 in Bronze Age or later Roman period. As said few drops dont make a rain.

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    Mesolithic Russian J1 samples are probably earlier Caucasus hunter gatherers that got lost chasing their prey : ) Also they probably liked the plains and different terrain so decided to stay.

    Little joking

  3. #478
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    So, regarding Europe, J first appears in Early to Mid Neolithic but also can be seen in pre-IE Bronze Age in form of a fully developed J2a-M410*, in territories of modern Greece, Italy, Croatia, Austria and Hungary. We can assume that they were also partially Neolithic farmers which spread from Anatolia. And before that Mesolithic and Paleolithic Caucasus and Zagros hunter-gatherers.

    Then in Middle Bronze Age we have first appearance of J2b-L283. Probably as Indo-europeanised earlier Caucasus and even earlier Mesolithic Zagros hunter-gatherers.
    As it seems J2b-L283 conquered territory in Bronze Age primarily focused in Southeast Europe.

    Then in Roman time also J1 and J2b-M205 also appear. Mostly from Phoenicians falling under Romans and joining them at the end.

    Specifically in Roman Empire J takes considerable percentage where over 50 % of Imperial Romans were various branches of J-M304 haplogroup.

    In later periods these percentages will fade down.


    In West Middle East, Palestine, Lebanon and Israel, J first appears in Early Bronze Age in a from of fully developed J1 and J2b-M205, but also probably few other J2a and J2b subclades which were not yet found in aDNA but there is strong indications they were there.

    So as said earlier. Regarding West Middle East in Paleolithic it was dominated with E1b tribes and in Chalcolithic with mostly T1 and few E1b tribes. But since the Early Bronze Age all samples were J-M304 with earlier aDNA found in Caucasus and Zagros Mountains since 10 000 BCE.


    This is how J-M304 brotherhood conquered Middle East, Europe, Caucasus, and Zagros mountains. But also more further territories.

    If we go 15 000 years back, all J were probably in range of Caucasus and Zagros mountains living together as various hunter-gatherer tribes. At least it seems the epicenter of J was there.
    Last edited by Dema; 16-03-20 at 13:35.

  4. #479
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    interesting read........................J-Z4133 would be the first confirmed lineage of J-L283 that was north of the Alps as far back as the Late Bronze Age.

    https://phylogeographer.com/eleven-j...ges-of-poland/

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    3 members found this post helpful.
    New development for J-Z638>Y21045. An Aromanian from Albania splits the J-Z38300 subclade. He tested PH1270+ PH4679+ and Z38300- Z38296-. This is the same cluster that was observed in Aromanians from Dukas, Albania with characteristic values of DYS388=17 and DYS389II=29, from the study: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...9.2005.00251.x

    With this result, the J-Y21045 TMRCA in Albania should be ~3600 ybp. This is the rarer "brother branch" of J-Z1297, and combined with aDNA data, it would suggest that J-Z638 itself likely expanded from or near the Western Balkans.
    Y-DNA: J-L283
    Maternal Y-DNA: E-V13

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    Target: I4332_Croatia_MBA_3516_ybp
    Distance: 3.4330% / 3.43296136
    59.8 I3589_Germany_Bell_Beaker_4175_ybp
    40.2 I3947_Croatia_Cardial_N_7836_ybp

    Indeed as I've said long ago J-L283 came with Bell Beakers. Modelling Yamnaya doesn't work well, unlike for Vučedol which is ofc descended of Yamnaya directly. So these were around 60 % German BB and 40 % local Cardial EEF, and results are better calculating with the Dalmatian EEF rather than some others (which ofc makes sense as the find is from Dalmatia).

    The most basal clade J-YP91 is a good mirror for J-L283, with the earliest split being W.Euro/N.Euro. And ofc this Sardinian now looks like some Sea Peoples immigrant.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    I've been thinking that J-L283 is this Ljubljana and BB element. But J-L283 was found in Posušje culture already and that culture had nothing to do with Cetina culture, it is assumed they were different populations, with different way of life, despite living next to each other for hundreds of years barely any contact was recorded.. I see some Albanian R-L52*, he should be BB.
    So if Posušje/Dinara are J-L283 then Cetina must be something else.. I thought about connecting J-L283 with Cernavoda and these Ezero Luwian cultures too, but your finds autosomal data says he is 60 % Central Euro BB or even Unetice and 40 % Dalmatian Cardial.
    Generally diversity of J-L283 suggests they came from the North, and very important for this Posušje culture is so called Litzen ware, also apparently with Northern origin.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    B. Govedarica, archaeologist, this is why I am reluctant to connect J-L283 with Cetina, though I thought they might be related to Ljubljana
    Didn't want to go too much off topic on the other thread, so I'm posting this here.

    I've been looking into this Lubljana Culture too, and potential link to J-L283. It does seem like J-L283 may have come from further north in the Balkans during EBA, as suggested by J-YP91*, J-Z585*, J-Z615* samples. Interestingly, I think I read somewhere suggesting that those EBA Montenegro tumuli (Mala/Velika Gruda, etc) were part of Lubljana Culture expansion people..

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    Didn't want to go too much off topic on the other thread, so I'm posting this here.

    I've been looking into this Lubljana Culture too, and potential link to J-L283. It does seem like J-L283 may have come from further north in the Balkans during EBA, as suggested by J-YP91*, J-Z585*, J-Z615* samples. Interestingly, I think I read somewhere suggesting that those EBA Montenegro tumuli (Mala/Velika Gruda, etc) were part of Lubljana Culture expansion people..
    Indeed. Govedarica wrote about some archaic links of Posušje culture with Ljubljana but he couldn't give some explanation. There is also issue of Litzen ware, common in Posušje. Per some views its point of origin are Eastern Alps. Also Ljubljana formed in few phases: Ig I, and Ig II, and apparently in Ig III Litzen ware appears. Ig I involved Vučedol, Ig II, Bell Beaker.

    Slovenian Stane Gabrovec In the EBA this whole area (Eastern Alps) is dominated by the Ljubljana culture, in the final stage with its Litzenian phase.

    Some have tried to make Litzen = Ljubljana but Govedarica said Litzen came little bit later. Overall there seems to be some connection.

    Part of Ljubljana was so called Middle Adriatic Ljubljana culture, some said crucial part of Cetina (on the other hand Cetina had clearly stronger Eastern influences much stronger than most of Yugoslav writers were willing to admit).

    Actually reading about this Adriatic Ljubljana some of its elements also seem Adriatic EEF, living in caves.. Apparently there is no info on funerary ritual. So Govedarica says probably some EEF Mediterranean tradition.. Adriatic Ljubljana made plenty of influence on proto-Cetina in pottery..

    So looking at it could be some IE J-L283, R-L51's who mixed up with E-L618 (might have been dominated by EEF's here).. These Eastern IE influences found in proto-Cetina are lacking. So yes it seems Cetina might have been formed by some Eastern IE influence.

    Their site is Varvara A which had some Nakovana (late EEF) elements and ofc Varvara is a major Posušje (J-L283) center.. So it kinda looks to me this Ljubljana IE element might have been easily the J-L283. It's hard to pinpoint exactly but some of these details do point in that direction.

    So Posušje culture was younger Varvara A3 and Varvara B1 (this is Reinecke chronology) and Adriatic Ljubljana was Varvara A1.. Search for "Gradina Varvara"..

    Hmm I'm thinking Adriatic Ljubljana could be some non Posušje J-L283 lienage..

    I didn't know much on Ljubljana and indeed Mala Gruda is Ljubljana, not Cetina and it seems non "Adriatic Ljubljana" either that is younger Ljubljana, Mala Gruda had a tumulus. As BB and even Slovenian Ljubljana had no tumulii I think this practice came from the East. No cremations (that was Cetina trait). And Posušje took the tumulii burial too so that might be another indication of a link.

    Overall I'd say there are various indications that J-L283 indeed might be linked originally to Ljubljana culture. I'm thinking J-L283 = Ljubljana and these could have morphed into Posušje later or part of them at least.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Interesting. So there were few Ljubljana's:
    1) classical Ljubljana (Ig- in Slovenia etc.) Vučedol/BB mix or dominately BB with other influences (some claimed BB eliminated Vucedol elements here)
    2) classical Ljubljana from Adriatic
    3) Middle Adriatic Ljubljana (EEF admixed) only this part played part in Cetina genesis.

    Ljubljana 2 had other than Mala Gruda also Rubež in Montenegro, but also Kënetë in Albania.. Kënetë also had plenty of Illyrian burials in Iron Age.. in Albanian. Near Kukës.
    https://www.persee.fr/doc/iliri_1727..._num_13_2_1831

    Kënetë Ljubljana dates to Bronze Age Ib phase per Govedarica.


    Link in Albanian about this book whee Govedarica writes about Ljubljana, Cetina, Posušje/Dinara.

    https://www.persee.fr/doc/iliri_1727..._num_20_1_1568

    It seems we should have paid more attention to these Ljubljana finds, looks like these might represent some non-Posušje related early (EBA) expansions of J-L283 towards the South. TMRCA of some of these clades suggests such an earlier date.

    Also seems these Ljubljana Adriatics adopted the tumulii from Easterners. As originally they didn't have them.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Govedarica quote, I translated to English (again L'age du bronze ancien dans la region de l'Adriatique de l'est):

    It is interesting that some archaic forms from the first phase of Posusje culture point more towards older samples of Ljubljana type than towards Cetina which immediately preceded it. We have in mind the spherical dishes with cylindrical neck from Varvara A3, motives of musical notes from Nečajno and Privala as well as ladder-like decorations which are very numerous in this culture. Here belong also dishes with broadened rims which also correspond more to primary Ljubljana tradition than to exemplars of this type from the Cetina culture.

    Can this mean that within this frame there exists an older horizon which predates Posusje culture, that is her first phase in the sense of our definition?! According to available strati-graphical data this cannot be confirmed. Namely the situation in Varvara A3 and in Ravlica cave IV, clearly indicates that most of these elements are chronologically fixed within the phase (Reinecke) Br. A2 and that typological link with the Ljubljana culture is very difficult to explain..

    I was mentioning that the great find of Varvara was Posusje culture in A3 and B1, it was this pre-Cetina Ljubljana in A1. This occurs in the middle in A2. It might be that this unusual link is genetic or some proto-Posusje J-L283 people which still retained the Ljubljana elements. Of course Litzen ware common in Posusje appears in Ljubljana Ig III (after the classical I and II).


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    3 members found this post helpful.
    Interesting information. Good to know that Ljubljana culture spawned all the way to northern Albania.

    In due time, we should have all these answers with ancient DNA. But in the meantime it's fun hypothesizing. After all, this field would be pretty boring if we had all these answers ;)

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Some ancient and historical J2b-L283s:

    "As we have already stressed, the mass evacuation of the Albanians from their triangle is the only effective course we can take. In order to relocate a whole people, the first prerequisite is the creation of a suitable psychosis. This can be done in various ways." - Vaso Cubrilovic

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    3 members found this post helpful.
    I guess some things never change:



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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    Interesting information. Good to know that Ljubljana culture spawned all the way to northern Albania.

    In due time, we should have all these answers with ancient DNA. But in the meantime it's fun hypothesizing. After all, this field would be pretty boring if we had all these answers ;)
    Indeed, the unknown makes things interesting. There are no great many Slavic aDNA finds either but everybody knows they are Slavic, partly also because of archaeological evidence.

    I wouldn't be surprised if these Albanian Ljubljana finds represent the entire J-Z638. Some other authors say more explicitly that Litzen (Posusje J-L283 find) ware originates from Ljubljana also.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    Kënetë also had plenty of Illyrian burials in Iron Age.. in Albanian. Near Kukës.
    https://www.persee.fr/doc/iliri_1727..._num_13_2_1831
    Tuma/Tumulus IV from this Albanian work is older - that is this Ljubljana culture find mentioned by Govedarica. So you have details on Tuma IV in Albanian.

    I was thinking all might fit here except J-Z631, but you see in Kënetë in Iron Age also plenty of Tumulii, part of Glasinac-Mati. I thought and still do J-Z631 is connected to it, but in addition to PH1602 who are indigenous there, Z631 might have started further south.

    Other Ljubljana finds from Albania are Gajtan near Shkoder layer I, Nezir cave (Mati river canyon) layer IIIa. Generally Northern Albanian area where J-L283 is particularly strong.

    So I see sort of pattern J-Z638 = Ljubljana (South Adriatic type), J-Y15058=Posusje. Interestingly Posusje had some Italian influences. That might explain both V.Vanik find and the Etruscan find, as the Etruscan was also Y15058 and I think autosomally he was pretty close to Vanik find.

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    Does anyone have an explanation as to why this haplogroup isn't as frequent in South Albania? Ghegs seem to have this haplogroup to a much larger extent. What are your guys' theories?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fustan View Post
    Does anyone have an explanation as to why this haplogroup isn't as frequent in South Albania? Ghegs seem to have this haplogroup to a much larger extent. What are your guys' theories?
    You mean there are no Tosks or Epirotes that have it ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    You mean there are no Tosks or Epirotes that have it ?
    Not that they dont have it, but only 6.8% tosks have it whereas 24.2% ghegs have it (according to gjenetika)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fustan View Post
    Does anyone have an explanation as to why this haplogroup isn't as frequent in South Albania? Ghegs seem to have this haplogroup to a much larger extent. What are your guys' theories?
    Cause it came with a Gheg colonization of South Albania.
    South Albania has its own version of J2b , Z631.
    Gheg colonization occurred somewhere in the middle ages, and more likely closer to the present day than not..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Parapolitikos View Post
    Cause it came with a Gheg colonization of South Albania.
    South Albania has its own version of J2b , Z631.
    Gheg colonization occurred somewhere in the middle ages, and more likely closer to the present day than not..
    No such colonization event happened. Your fake news attempt trying to spread this nonsense will never succeed. J2b-l283 has been in laberia a long time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fustan View Post
    Not that they dont have it, but only 6.8% tosks have it whereas 24.2% ghegs have it (according to gjenetika)
    IMO, there is a couple of reasons. One of them is because southern Albania has received a larger influx of migrations after the fall of Rome, which would naturally lower the percentages of other haplos. For example, J2b-L283 has the lowest percentage in Korçë county (less than 5%), while the highest in the Labëria region (10-15%). Also, in the Labëria region, there is some rare J-L283 lineages, like J-Y146400*, J-YP181*, and some J-Z631. So they have no connection with northern lineages in thousands of years..

    Quote Originally Posted by Parapolitikos View Post
    Cause it came with a Gheg colonization of South Albania.
    South Albania has its own version of J2b , Z631.
    Gheg colonization occurred somewhere in the middle ages, and more likely closer to the present day than not..
    Wrong. J-Z631 is observed in roughly similar proportions in both Ghegs and Tosks. So stop spamming this thread too.
    Last edited by Trojet; 18-04-20 at 23:15.

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    12-04-18
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    28
    Posts
    126
    Points
    1,275
    Level
    9
    Points: 1,275, Level: 9
    Level completed: 63%, Points required for next Level: 75
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J-L283

    Ethnic group
    Ancient
    Country: United States



    Pretty cool. Been a while since I've been here. Wish there was more basal lineages discovered tho.

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