J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

[Pax Augusta]

Nuragics were non IE speaking people, Etruscans as well and i believe they will continue showing up this J2b2 - L283. They probably initially came with CHG rich populations. In peer reviewed scientific papers it's labelled as ABA (Anatolian Bronze Age) and it should be related to J2a and J2b2. It's a no brainer only Greeks, Albanians, Bulgarians and Italians have this ABA to a certain degree.

We have over 30 mtDNAs of Etruscans and they are against the hypothesis that the Etruscans came initially from a population rich in CHG.

At present there is no evidence that J2b2-L283 is telling us anything about the origins of the Etruscans. ABA that exists in southern Europe has nothing to do with the Etruscans.

[Dibran]

Would like to share an interesting new BigY result for the J-Z597>Y146400 branch.
A person with origin from Krk, Croatia, is tested Y146400+ FGC64027+ FGC64043-, which means he is splitting YFull's J-Y146400 branch. An interesting result for this rare branch parallel/brother to the more common J-Z2507, coming from an island of Croatia. The new phylogeny should look something like this:

@Wanderer, your "Levantine origin" theory for J-Y146400 just went down the drain
I told you it never made sense.

Given the downstream branch in India, would you say this could possibly indicates migration with Alexanders forces?

Or, is it a really old split and likely not correlated to Paleo-Balkan stock?

[Jovialis]

We have over 30 mtDNAs of Etruscans and they are against the hypothesis that the Etruscans came initially from a population rich in CHG.

At present there is no evidence that J2b2-L283 is telling us anything about the origins of the Etruscans. ABA that exists in southern Europe has nothing to do with the Etruscans.

Etruscans and Latins can be modeled as having roughly the same amount of Iran_N as they did EHG+Steppe_Eneolithic. Which is what distinguishes them from their contemporaries, to the north, as per the chart above. Which also seems to have been the case with the Bronze Age Mycenaean samples minus WHG and far more Anatolian_N; some having a little more Iran_N. Though the R1 sample, which is to the left of the block, itself has almost no WHG. It seems that this was the case throughout the central, and eastern Northern Mediterranean basin. I think the Iran_N arrived gradually via intermediary populations, some prior to the arrival of Steppe, Not straight from ABA.

[Trojet]

Given the downstream branch in India, would you say this could possibly indicates migration with Alexanders forces?
Or, is it a really old split and likely not correlated to Paleo-Balkan stock?

The Alexander thesis is possible. However, if I'm not mistaken, the guy from Kerala, India, is a Christian or has a tradition of origin from Syrian Christians. So I think it's more likely that subclade migrated during the Bronze Age collapse via the southern Balkans. (Roman era expansion is also possible as suggested by ~2000 ybp TMRCAs of Lebanon/Columbia/Italy samples).

Anyway, IMHO, the more important thing is this basal J-Y146400 from NW Croatia further strengthens the idea that J-Z597 (TMRCA 4400 ybp) expanded from western/northwestern Balkans. And this brings us to J-Z597 and the EBA "Ljubljana culture" which was theorized/discussed by me and Aspurg some time ago:
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post601292

[hrvat22]

The Alexander thesis is possible. However, if I'm not mistaken, the guy from Kerala, India, is a Christian or has a tradition of origin from Syrian Christians. So I think it's more likely that subclade migrated during the Bronze Age collapse via the southern Balkans.
Anyway, IMHO, the more important thing is this basal J-Y146400 from NW Croatia further strengthens the idea that J-Z597 (TMRCA 4400 ybp) expanded from western/northwestern Balkans. And this brings us to J-Z597 and the EBA "Ljubljana culture" which was theorized/discussed by me and Aspurg some time ago:
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post601292

This theory(expanded from western/northwestern Balkans. "Ljubljana culture") should be proved with Slovenian R1b branches. I don't know if that's the case?

As for the island Krk is concerned, there is certainly an autochthonous (Y dna)possibility, but there is also and the Vlach connection. Part of the population(ie Vlachs) to Krk coming from Lika and Dinara area. So and some Vlachs migration is possible, even originally from the area of Albania. In any case it could be some Illyrian-Albanian branch, and in the future we will see a possible direction of local migration or perhaps assimilation by newly arrived Croats(6, 7th century).

[Trojet]

This theory(expanded from western/northwestern Balkans. "Ljubljana culture") should be proved with Slovenian R1b branches. I don't know if that's the case?
As for the island Krk is concerned, there is certainly an autochthonous (Y dna)possibility, but there is also and the Vlach connection. Part of the population(ie Vlachs) to Krk coming from Lika and Dinara area. So and some Vlachs migration is possible, even originally from the area of Albania. In any case it could be some Illyrian-Albanian branch, and in the future we will see a possible direction of local migration or perhaps assimilation by newly arrived Croats(6, 7th century).

It's certainly possible that it migrated from the inland. However, considering that particular branch hasn't been found inland, and the distance with the Albanian is closer to 4000 years, I think it's more likely it's "autochthonous" to that region of Croatia. Also, keep in mind there is a J-Z597+ dated 3600 ybp in southern Croatia, next to the Adriatic (sample i4331).

I remember seeing a study from the Croatian islands some time ago. Haplogroup J2b was detected 6-9% in the islands (I believe 9% in Cres) which is significantly higher than the mainland, at least for J2b-L283. Of course, it's possible some of that J2b is in fact J2b-M205. Unfortunately, they didn't test beyond J2b.

[Pax Augusta]

Etruscans and Latins can be modeled as having roughly the same amount of Iran_N as they did EHG+Steppe_Eneolithic. Which is what distinguishes them from their contemporaries, to the north, as per the chart above. Which also seems to have been the case with the Bronze Age Mycenaean samples minus WHG and far more Anatolian_N; some having a little more Iran_N. Though the R1 sample, which is to the left of the block, itself has almost no WHG. It seems that this was the case throughout the central, and eastern Northern Mediterranean basin. I think the Iran_N arrived gradually via intermediary populations, some prior to the arrival of Steppe, Not straight from ABA.

There Iran_N is nothing more than synonymous with CHG (and this already makes it clear that not even geneticists have the clearest ideas). And Iran_N peeps into the Neolithic in Italy.

But the point was something else.

There is no evidence that the Etruscans came initially from a population rich in CHG. Which is even wrong from an archaeological and ethnos formation point of view. Ethnos, in the sense of ethnic self-awareness, only emerged in the Iron Age. Just as at present there is no evidence that J2b2-L283 is telling us anything about the origins of the Etruscans.

[Jovialis]

There Iran_N is nothing more than synonymous with CHG (and this already makes it clear that not even geneticists have the clearest ideas). And Iran_N peeps into the Neolithic in Italy.

But the point was something else.

There is no evidence that the Etruscans came initially from a population rich in CHG. Which is even wrong from an archaeological and ethnos formation point of view. Ethnos, in the sense of ethnic self-awareness, only emerged in the Iron Age. Just as at present there is no evidence that J2b2-L283 is telling us anything about the origins of the Etruscans.

Indeed, I agree with all of those points.

[Wanderer]

There Iran_N is nothing more than synonymous with CHG (and this already makes it clear that not even geneticists have the clearest ideas). And Iran_N peeps into the Neolithic in Italy.

But the point was something else.

There is no evidence that the Etruscans came initially from a population rich in CHG. Which is even wrong from an archaeological and ethnos formation point of view. Ethnos, in the sense of ethnic self-awareness, only emerged in the Iron Age. Just as at present there is no evidence that J2b2-L283 is telling us anything about the origins of the Etruscans.

Etruscans came after the sack of troy. As Dardanians also migrated toward there this is why the sea ppls sack mycenaeans, hitties and egyptians. Pelasgians from anatolia that were part of the trojan war were part of the sea ppls.
But also the sherdan ppls,

Sea ppls erkwesh, teresh, lukka and sherden, shekelesh, northerners coming from all lands.

Lukkas are lycian for example
Teresh are tyrenians

The sherdan are sardinian (nuraghe) and had pottery of theirs discovered in cyprus which they also invaded during the collapse of the bronze age.

The Erkwesh are ahhiyawa which were neighbors of the lycians (lukka)
Lived peace fully with the hittites up to a point.

Also the earliest J-L283 is found in croatia 1600 BC. There is no J-L283 sample found in europe earlier than that which most likely means that J-L283 probably arrived not too long before that. If J-L283 was really part of the yanmaya expansion we should see alot more J-L283 distributed around europe earlier in ancient samples but we don't.

Instead we see J-L283 expanding from Caucus to balkans. Meaning that likely they crossed the black sea to the balkans. And later crossed through the medditerenean

[Pax Augusta]

Etruscans came after the sack of troy. As Dardanians also migrated toward there this is why the sea ppls sack mycenaeans, hitties and egyptians. Pelasgians from anatolia that were part of the trojan war were part of the sea ppls.
But also the sherdan ppls,

Sea ppls erkwesh, teresh, lukka and sherden, shekelesh, northerners coming from all lands.

Lukkas are lycian for example
Teresh are tyrenians

The sherdan are sardinian (nuraghe) and had pottery of theirs discovered in cyprus which they also invaded during the collapse of the bronze age.

The Erkwesh are ahhiyawa which were neighbors of the lycians (lukka)
Lived peace fully with the hittites up to a point.

Also the earliest J-L283 is found in croatia 1600 BC. There is no J-L283 sample found in europe earlier than that which most likely means that J-L283 probably arrived not too long before that. If J-L283 was really part of the yanmaya expansion we should see alot more J-L283 distributed around europe earlier on but we don't.

I'll overlook the rest that it's the usual old guff. Coming straight to the point, recently in a preprint an individual of the Maros culture buried in Mokrin necropolis in northern Serbia could be J2b2-L283. The culture of Maros is an early bronze age culture that stretched between Hungary and northern Serbia and northern Romania. If it is confirmed, we go up to 2100-1800 BC in the Balkans.

[Wanderer]

I'll overlook the rest that it's the usual old guff. Coming straight to the point, recently in a preprint an individual of the Maros culture buried in Mokrin necropolis in northern Serbia could be J2b2-L283. The culture of Maros is an early bronze age culture that stretched between Hungary and northern Serbia and northern Romania. If it is confirmed, we go up to 2100-1800 BC in the Balkans.

We'll sea. I really want to see more J-L283 (-z585) samples. Or even up to -615 samples

[Archetype0ne]

I'll overlook the rest that it's the usual old guff. Coming straight to the point, recently in a preprint an individual of the Maros culture buried in Mokrin necropolis in northern Serbia could be J2b2-L283. The culture of Maros is an early bronze age culture that stretched between Hungary and northern Serbia and northern Romania. If it is confirmed, we go up to 2100-1800 BC in the Balkans.

You are talking about this paper correct?
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...e-Early-Bronze

What makes us think its L283? Did not read the paper myself.
Also will they release deeper analysis of the haplogroups?

[Pax Augusta]

You are talking about this paper correct?
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...e-Early-Bronze

What makes us think its L283? Did not read the paper myself.
Also will they release deeper analysis of the haplogroups?

Yes, correct. They told me it might be J2b2-L283. Quiles writes it too, you'll find it here (To be fair I often don't agree with Quiles's assumptions, but this time it looks like it's not his assumption).

https://indo-european.eu/2020/05/mar...cal-admixture/

[Archetype0ne]

Yes, correct. They told me it might be J2b2-L283. Quiles writes it too, you'll find it here (To be fair I often don't agree with Quiles's assumptions, but this time it looks like it's not his assumption).

https://indo-european.eu/2020/05/mar...cal-admixture/

Thank you, I saw that as well. If it is indeed L283, would this L283 mean that it predates Indo Europeans in the Balkans? Or is this just some very early Indo European Colonization? Possibly auDNA can hint at the answer.

Why I am asking is because wikipedia is really confusing. On one hand it writes this:


"Pre-Yamnaya steppe herders, archaic Proto-Indo-European speakers, spread into the lower Danube valley about 4200–4000 BCE, either causing or taking advantage of the collapse of Old Europe.^[32] According to Anthony, their languages "probably included archaic Proto-Indo-European dialects of the kind partly preserved later in Anatolian."^[130] Damgaard et al. (2018) note that "[a]mong comparative linguists, a Balkan route for the introduction of Anatolian IE is generally considered more likely than a passage through the Caucasus, due, for example, to greater Anatolian IE presence and language diversity in the west."<sup>[34]"

On the other hand:</sup>

[Trojet]

I'll overlook the rest that it's the usual old guff. Coming straight to the point, recently in a preprint an individual of the Maros culture buried in Mokrin necropolis in northern Serbia could be J2b2-L283. The culture of Maros is an early bronze age culture that stretched between Hungary and northern Serbia and northern Romania. If it is confirmed, we go up to 2100-1800 BC in the Balkans.

Correct. That sample is only reported as J2b, but I'll be surprised if it's not J2b-L283+. Hopefully they release the raw data soon enough and we confirm it.

Let's see, maybe we get the first ancient J-L283>Z597>Z638, where the vast majority of Albanian J-L283 belongs. That sample could also be J-L283>YP91, as this one has a more continental European spread.

[TaktikatEMalet]

Does anyone know why e-v13 has such a stronger spread in balkans over j2b l283? Did l283 come later in smaller numbers and held down dardania & north east albania region?

What are the oldest samples for both haplogroups in balkans so far? We need at least 2 of each

[Wanderer]

Thank you, I saw that as well. If it is indeed L283, would this L283 mean that it predates Indo Europeans in the Balkans? Or is this just some very early Indo European Colonization? Possibly auDNA can hint at the answer.

Why I am asking is because wikipedia is really confusing. On one hand it writes this:


"Pre-Yamnaya steppe herders, archaic Proto-Indo-European speakers, spread into the lower Danube valley about 4200–4000 BCE, either causing or taking advantage of the collapse of Old Europe.^[32] According to Anthony, their languages "probably included archaic Proto-Indo-European dialects of the kind partly preserved later in Anatolian."^[130][COLOR=#202122][FONT=sans-serif] Damgaard et al. (2018) note that "[a]mong comparative linguists, a Balkan route for the introduction of Anatolian IE is generally considered more likely than a passage through the Caucasus, due, for example, to greater Anatolian IE presence and language diversity in the west."

This is what I thought before

[Wanderer]

Does anyone know why e-v13 has such a stronger spread in balkans over j2b l283? Did l283 come later in smaller numbers and held down dardania & north east albania region?

What are the oldest samples for both haplogroups in balkans so far? We need at least 2 of each

J-L283 is a uncommon or rare haplogroup period. Its only even alittle more common in the balkans. Its weird its hardly present. But r1b is off the charts and e1b like you said for the balkans.

[Trojet]

Wanted to share here some new developments for J-Y15058.

A new J-Z38240 subclade defined by J-BY161223 was discovered, parallel to J-PH1602 and J-CTS6190. It currently contains the Sardinian who was previously at ~J-Y15058, a new Macedonian sample, the Norwegian who was previously at J-Z38240*, and an Iberian (not NGS tested). The Algerian remains at J-Z38240*.

I see that the ancient I4331 from Southern Croatia is negative for J-BY161223 so he remains at ~J-Z38240*, and interestingly lived at roughly the same time as its estimated TMRCA.

Also, a Bulgarian tracing decent to Greek Macedonia recently tested Z2507+ and Z638- at YSEQ. We now predict he is Z40052+. His haplotype seems distant from the other J-Z40052 samples. So for J-Y15058 subclades, at this point I would theorize that J-Z38240 was more western Balkan, while J-Z40052 more central Balkan, maybe there was some presence among ancient Macedonians.

I think these developments further diminish Aspurg's "Sardinian/Italian diversity" or the possibility of J-Y15058 expanding from there, as the Sardinian now falls downstream of J-Y15058. (This is also consistent with the idea that the "Etruscan" J-CTS6190 likely migrated from the Balkans sometime between 3600-2800 ybp going by YFull's age estimates).

[Trojet]

I'll overlook the rest that it's the usual old guff. Coming straight to the point, recently in a preprint an individual of the Maros culture buried in Mokrin necropolis in northern Serbia could be J2b2-L283. The culture of Maros is an early bronze age culture that stretched between Hungary and northern Serbia and northern Romania. If it is confirmed, we go up to 2100-1800 BC in the Balkans.

I analyzed the BAM file of the J2b sample from this paper: https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1...05.18.101337v1

Mokrin necropolis, an Early Bronze Age (2,100-1,800 BC) Maros culture site in North Serbia

He is J2b-L283 >> Z615+ (Z584- Z2505-): https://yfull.com/tree/J-Z615/

Male in burial 163, according to the paper: "At the opposite end of the status spectrum, a woman from the burial 181 was very likely the mother of the male in burial 163 and both were buried with grave goods indicative of higher social status (30). Since the male individual was an adult at the time of death, it remains unclear whether he inherited or acquired his status."

[Archetype0ne]

I analyzed the BAM file of the J2b sample from this paper: https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1...05.18.101337v1

Mokrin necropolis, an Early Bronze Age (2,100-1,800 BC) Maros culture site in North Serbia

He is J2b-L283 >> Z615+ (Z584- Z2505-): https://yfull.com/tree/J-Z615/

Male in burial 163, according to the paper: "At the opposite end of the status spectrum, a woman from the burial 181 was very likely the mother of the male in burial 163 and both were buried with grave goods indicative of higher social status (30). Since the male individual was an adult at the time of death, it remains unclear whether he inherited or acquired his status."

Great news! Thanks Trojet

So it is confirmed, another ancient sample joins the L283 family.
The oldest L283 in Europe to my knowledge, 4K years in the Balkans it seems :)

[Crank]

Not an expert in this but at this point I doubt it was a Proto-Illyrian. Most likely came to Europe during the Neolithic or Bronze Age from the near east. Indo European languages in the Balkans were spread by people rich in R1b most likely. But anything is possible.

[Archetype0ne]

Not an expert in this but at this point I doubt it was a Proto-Illyrian. Most likely came to Europe during the Neolithic or Bronze Age from the near east. Indo European languages in the Balkans were spread by people rich in R1b most likely. But anything is possible.

Hey bro, welcome to Eupedia :)

Would love to engage you in discussion regarding your thoughts.
Have read a lot of threads linking J2B with IndoEuropeans, but when it comes to language as opposed to DNA for this time period (IE) it is hard to make any factually based discussions.
So instead I will engage you on the Near Eastern inclination for L283 you have.
What exactly gives you that impression?

[TaktikatEMalet]

Not an expert in this but at this point I doubt it was a Proto-Illyrian. Most likely came to Europe during the Neolithic or Bronze Age from the near east. Indo European languages in the Balkans were spread by people rich in R1b most likely. But anything is possible.

R1b also came from near east, not sure what your point is

In order to figure out what illyrians belonged to we need to know the percentages of r1b Z2103 throughout the balkans, how much is this in Romanians, Bulgarians etc? It is strong in Albanians in regions with a lot of j2b l283

If Z2103 is low in Eastern balkans then maybe we have an answer

[Archetype0ne]

R1b also came from near east, not sure what your point is
In order to figure out what illyrians belonged to we need to know the percentages of r1b Z2103 throughout the balkans, how much is this in Romanians, Bulgarians etc? It is strong in Albanians in regions with a lot of j2b l283
If Z2103 is low in Eastern balkans then maybe we have an answer

Except L283 did not come from the Middle East... That's why I wanted to engage him in discussion. So far there is no evidence to suggest so. Neither ancient samples, nor terminal SNPs, nor modern distribution for that matter.

https://yfull.com/tree/J-L283/






https://indo-european.eu/2020/02/vis...-dna-in-a-map/



So based on living relatives, terminal L283 today is found in Armenia. Keep in mind the mutation is some 10k years old.
Furthermore there is the above ancient sample from Caucasus MBA.
The Mokrin sample 2000 BC.
Then we have Croatia sample MBA 1500-1700 BC.
3 Nuragic Sardinia 1300-1100 BC.
Etruscan 700 BC.

I think people make the mistake of thinking it is a Middle Eastern Haplogroup due to it being J2 and its distribution today in the middle east. However L283 separated from J2 (M241) some 10k years ago... My guess would be based on the evidence somewhere in Armenia, or relatively close to Caucasus.

Nonetheless... I am not the best person to ask but there is plenty of info on the net, with various theories how it got to Europe. Right now I subscribe to Armenia/Caucasus through/over Black Sea into Northern Balkans through the Danube before moving into Italy and Southern Balkans.