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Thread: J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    Wanted to share here some new developments for J-Y15058.
    A new J-Z38240 subclade defined by J-BY161223 was discovered, parallel to J-PH1602 and J-CTS6190. It currently contains the Sardinian who was previously at ~J-Y15058, a new Macedonian sample, the Norwegian who was previously at J-Z38240*, and an Iberian (not NGS tested). The Algerian remains at J-Z38240*.
    I see that the ancient I4331 from Southern Croatia is negative for J-BY161223 so he remains at ~J-Z38240*, and interestingly lived at roughly the same time as its estimated TMRCA.
    Also, a Bulgarian tracing decent to Greek Macedonia recently tested Z2507+ and Z638- at YSEQ. We now predict he is Z40052+. His haplotype seems distant from the other J-Z40052 samples. So for J-Y15058 subclades, at this point I would theorize that J-Z38240 was more western Balkan, while J-Z40052 more central Balkan, maybe there was some presence among ancient Macedonians.
    I think these developments further diminish Aspurg's "Sardinian/Italian diversity" or the possibility of J-Y15058 expanding from there, as the Sardinian now falls downstream of J-Y15058. (This is also consistent with the idea that the "Etruscan" J-CTS6190 likely migrated from the Balkans sometime between 3600-2800 ybp going by YFull's age estimates).

    Going by YFull's age estimates (formed 3700 ybp, TMRCA 3200 ybp) J-CTS6190 may have migrated from the Balkans sometime between 3700-3200 ybp, this span of time coincides with what there was before the Proto-Villanovan culture in Italy, the Apennine culture, which, however, is not considered a homogeneous culture that represented a homogeneous population. In any case, migrations and contacts between Italy and the Balkans were always there. Even the possible migrations during the Proto-Villanovan period (>Urnfield culture) of the end of the Bronze Age (not to be confused with the Iron Age Villanovan culture) may have come from a very large area from Central Europe to the northern Balkans. What is wrong is when referring to the Bronze Age cultures the use of names of ethnic groups that will emerge only in the Iron Age, although it is quite evident that Iron Age ethnos are descended from Bronze Age cultures.


    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    I analyzed the BAM file of the J2b sample from this paper: https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1...05.18.101337v1

    Mokrin necropolis, an Early Bronze Age (2,100-1,800 BC) Maros culture site in North Serbia

    He is J2b-L283 >> Z615+ (Z584- Z2505-): https://yfull.com/tree/J-Z615/

    Male in burial 163, according to the paper: "At the opposite end of the status spectrum, a woman from the burial 181 was very likely the mother of the male in burial 163 and both were buried with grave goods indicative of higher social status (30). Since the male individual was an adult at the time of death, it remains unclear whether he inherited or acquired his status."
    Really very interesting. Thank you for sharing it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    J-L283 is a uncommon or rare haplogroup period. Its only even alittle more common in the balkans. Its weird its hardly present. But r1b is off the charts and e1b like you said for the balkans.
    J-L283 is not one of the most characterizing and common Y-DNAs in Italy but it cannot be defined as rare either.

  2. #527
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    Interesting. So there were few Ljubljana's:
    1) classical Ljubljana (Ig- in Slovenia etc.) Vučedol/BB mix or dominately BB with other influences (some claimed BB eliminated Vucedol elements here)
    2) classical Ljubljana from Adriatic
    3) Middle Adriatic Ljubljana (EEF admixed) only this part played part in Cetina genesis.

    Ljubljana 2 had other than Mala Gruda also Rubež in Montenegro, but also Kënetë in Albania.. Kënetë also had plenty of Illyrian burials in Iron Age.. in Albanian. Near Kukës.
    https://www.persee.fr/doc/iliri_1727..._num_13_2_1831

    Kënetë Ljubljana dates to Bronze Age Ib phase per Govedarica.


    Link in Albanian about this book whee Govedarica writes about Ljubljana, Cetina, Posušje/Dinara.

    https://www.persee.fr/doc/iliri_1727..._num_20_1_1568

    It seems we should have paid more attention to these Ljubljana finds, looks like these might represent some non-Posušje related early (EBA) expansions of J-L283 towards the South. TMRCA of some of these clades suggests such an earlier date.

    Also seems these Ljubljana Adriatics adopted the tumulii from Easterners. As originally they didn't have them.
    Very nice analysis Aspurg. That article you found is gold.
    Do you think my clade Y21878* was one of the clades you mentioned? Formed 4kya TMRCA 3.7kya.
    If they picked the tumuli tradition between 2.2-1.8kya, are you aware of any tumuli in Northern Albania dated to that period. I think if the theory holds there should be, just unsure if they are discovered. And if there are, and they get tested and we find clades upstream or even fully formed of that TMRCA I think that will give a lot of credence to the theory.
    “Man cannot live without a permanent trust in something indestructible in himself, and at the same time that indestructible something as well as his trust in it may remain permanently concealed from him.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Going by YFull's age estimates (formed 3700 ybp, TMRCA 3200 ybp) J-CTS6190 may have migrated from the Balkans sometime between 3700-3200 ybp, this span of time coincides with what there was before the Proto-Villanovan culture in Italy, the Apennine culture, which, however, is not considered a homogeneous culture that represented a homogeneous population. In any case, migrations and contacts between Italy and the Balkans were always there. Even the possible migrations during the Proto-Villanovan period (>Urnfield culture) of the end of the Bronze Age (not to be confused with the Iron Age Villanovan culture) may have come from a very large area from Central Europe to the northern Balkans. What is wrong is when referring to the Bronze Age cultures the use of names of ethnic groups that will emerge only in the Iron Age, although it is quite evident that Iron Age ethnos are descended from Bronze Age cultures.




    Really very interesting. Thank you for sharing it.



    J-L283 is not one of the most characterizing and common Y-DNAs in Italy but it cannot be defined as rare either.
    It seems kind of rare. Its always a very low percentage of a population with the exception of albanians. And maybe few notable exceptions. But majority of the time JL283 is very low.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    It seems kind of rare. Its always a very low percentage of a population with the exception of albanians. And maybe few notable exceptions. But majority of the time JL283 is very low.
    You can not make comparisons, the Italians are circa 60 million and if you consider those who are of Italian origin and live abroad the number grows a lot. How many are the Albanians? It is obvious that in the Italians there is a greater diversification in the Y-DNAs than in the Albanians that are a much smaller population.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    You can not make comparisons, the Italians are circa 60 million and if you consider those who are of Italian origin and live abroad the number grows a lot. How many are the Albanians? It is obvious that in the Italians there is a greater diversification in the Y-DNAs than in the Albanians that are a much smaller population.
    Not entirely sure. Holistically over 60% of Italians fall under R1b subranches if I am not mistaken? Meanwhile up to 70% of Albanians fall within 3 groups (V13,L283,R1B) I guess in southern Italy the picture changes with similar breakdowns into 20-30% per basal haplogroup similar to the picture in Albanians. So as far as % wise diversification there is arguments to be made.

    As far as clade diversification within the subranches, not entirely familiar with the picture in Italy, but withing Albania you can see diversity spanning up to >4kya within the 3 main subranches. So yeah... there might be ~6mln Albanians in the Balkans, but I doubt the nominal number of population says much about diversification.

    Nonetheless, I agree with you. L283 numbers, age and diversity in Italy is quite significant.

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    I would say Proto-Illyrians were likely mostly E-V13 S2979. It matches like gloves, Illyrians were Late Bronze Age/Early Iron Age comers as is S2979. S2979 is widespread from South to North Albanians as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Not entirely sure. Holistically over 60% of Italians fall under R1b subranches if I am not mistaken? Meanwhile up to 70% of Albanians fall within 3 groups (V13,L283,R1B) I guess in southern Italy the picture changes with similar breakdowns into 20-30% per basal haplogroup similar to the picture in Albanians. So as far as % wise diversification there is arguments to be made.
    As far as clade diversification within the subranches, not entirely familiar with the picture in Italy, but withing Albania you can see diversity spanning up to >4kya within the 3 main subranches. So yeah... there might be ~6mln Albanians in the Balkans, but I doubt the nominal number of population says much about diversification.
    Nonetheless, I agree with you. L283 numbers, age and diversity in Italy is quite significant.
    What are the percentages of each r1b subclades in italy. You can't group them all together so there is still diversity among the r1b just like there is a lot of diversity in England with many different groups of r1b, i and roman/balkan subclades

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    Quote Originally Posted by Progon View Post
    I would say Proto-Illyrians were likely mostly E-V13 S2979. It matches like gloves, Illyrians were Late Bronze Age/Early Iron Age comers as is S2979. S2979 is widespread from South to North Albanians as well.
    Maybe but from which direction did they come from? And they didn't come as just pure e-v13. If they came from the north/germany it is possible they had i1 too

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    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    Maybe but from which direction did they come from? And they didn't come as just pure e-v13. If they came from the north/germany it is possible they had i1 too
    North Germany is too North, it was an area between Switzerland/Austria/Hungary and Pannonia-Carpathian, something along the lines.

    https://www.cambridge.org/core/books...NIHYeNYvmxQXKQ

    I have seen British E-V13, mostly if not all of them are S2979 and some rare Z5018 subclades, and none of them is of Roman soldiers, their S2979 is older than Balkan ones.

    So either this Eastern Urnfield layer during LBA were Illyro-Thracian like or a third unknown population mixing with Illyrians/Thracians/Greeks. Time will tell.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Progon View Post
    North Germany is too North, it was an area between Switzerland/Austria/Hungary and Pannonia-Carpathian, something along the lines.
    https://www.cambridge.org/core/books...NIHYeNYvmxQXKQ
    I have seen British E-V13, mostly if not all of them are S2979 and some rare Z5018 subclades, and none of them is of Roman soldiers, their S2979 is older than Balkan ones.
    So either this Eastern Urnfield layer during LBA were Illyro-Thracian like or a third unknown population mixing with Illyrians/Thracians/Greeks. Time will tell.
    I meant North of balkans like Germany.
    V13 Z5018 is MUCH more frequent in balkans than England so of course it could have came from there especially with the history of romans.

    How can you suggest it is nothing to do with Romans, how much older are the v13 found in England than balkans? If its only a few years could simply be a miscalculation or not enough research has been done in balkans to find earlier sources yet. If v13 pre dates roman conquest in England then yes it would have nothing to do with roman soldiers, obviously

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    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    I meant North of balkans like Germany.
    V13 S2979 is MUCH more frequent in balkans than England so of course it could have came from there especially with the history of romans.
    How can you suggest it is nothing to do with Romans, how much older are the v13 found in England than balkans? If its only a few years could simply be a miscalculation or not enough research has been done in balkans to find earlier sources yet
    The migration was heavily concentrated in the Balkans of course. In England E-V13 is small, very small. But those that are present are not downclades of Balkan S2979. Atleast, i am not aware of any yet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Progon View Post
    The migration was heavily concentrated in the Balkans of course. In England E-V13 is small, very small. But those that are present are not downclades of Balkan S2979. Atleast, i am not aware of any yet.
    Do any of their dates go back 2100 years? If yes, then we can confirm that some v13 in England had nothing to do with Romans. First invasions/wars started around 50 BC

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    One example of why some v13 or l283 (the topic in discussion) may be found in BC Italy (or Rome even)

    "By decision of the Senate, Gentius and his family were sent to Spoletum, to be kept under observation. The other captives were imprisoned in Rome. But the inhabitants of Spoletum refused to keep the royal family under watch, so they were transferred to Iguvium."

  14. #539
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    You can not make comparisons, the Italians are circa 60 million and if you consider those who are of Italian origin and live abroad the number grows a lot. How many are the Albanians? It is obvious that in the Italians there is a greater diversification in the Y-DNAs than in the Albanians that are a much smaller population.
    Majority of italians are still r1b and over all J-L283 is not particularly high within the italian population in general.

    Couple of new basal samples being processed.
    Wonder from where or/and when
    Interesting

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    Majority of italians are still r1b and over all J-L283 is not particularly high within the italian population in general.

    Couple of new basal samples being processed.
    Wonder from where or/and when
    Interesting
    AFAIK the ones being updated are from ancient samples. ORC007 is the Mokrin sample IIRC. The rest should be Nuragic, Etruscan and Roman. Also the Viking I mentioned in this thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    From the supplement:
    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post

    https://static-content.springer.com/...MOESM1_ESM.pdf

    Öland, Sweden
    (Prepared by Helene Wilhelmson, Sydsvensk arkeologi AB, Kristianstad, and Department of Archaeology and Ancient History, Lund University)

    Many human remains from the late Iron Age (400-1050 CE) have been excavated from burials and other contexts on the island of Öland in the Baltic Sea. Throughout the period the burials are both cremations as well as inhumations. There is considerable variation in inhumation burial form (pit coffin, stone cist, etc.) during the VA76–80. The uncremated human remains from burials (and other contexts) were recently studied using an interdisciplinary bioarchaeological perspective80 integrating new radiocarbon dates for many graves. The individuals studied for aDNA here are the majority of the late Iron Age population discussed in that study.

    The most recent dietary isotope analysis of human remains, show a great individual variation in diet5 supporting the archaeozoological finds and point towards a population with highly varied subsistence strategies. First generation migration to Öland was investigated through 87Sr/86Sr and δ18O isotopes and the results were interpreted to show extensive immigration to the island with 68% non-local individuals in the late Iron Age. The immigrants appear to be both regional and interregional. The greater variation in individual diet could not be concluded to correlate to provenance of an individual. The people living in Öland during the late Iron Age have therefore been interpreted as a population of mixed provenance resulting in a creolized society with a combination of non-local and local traditions for burial and subsistence practices80.

    The 29 individuals we sampled were included in the study of Wilhelmson80 and consist of all types of burials. They are from 20 sites in Öland, excavated on separate occasions between 1931 and 1975. About half of the individuals (n=15) are dated by 14C and the rest are dated by typology. The burials are inhumations of varied type. They have different orientations (east-west, north-south or southnorth), feature different architecture (lime stone cists, pits, coffins, full boat burial), and include single as well as multiple burials in one grave. Two more skeletons sampled in this study (id 1099, 1052) are from the early Iron Age. The table shown below presents details of the selected individuals.




    This ancient sample was added to YFull:
    L283: J-Z1043>Z8424>Y36972

    Google maps of the Island: https://www.google.com/maps/place/%C...8!4d16.6364773
    Location of find:
    https://www.google.com/maps/place/38...8!4d16.7268612

    This particular sample seems to be classified as "local". Albeit the finds on the island are a mix between local and nonlocal.

    The samples from the island are dated (400-1050 CE).

    Not too sure about VK346.
    Also I would say based on ancient samples, basal clades etc, Italy is super important to the history of L283. 3 Nuragic samples, 1 Etruscan sample, and some Roman IIRC. Plus "quite" some variety of clades.

    In my mind after the Balkans, Italy is the most important spot in Europe for L283. At least based on current evidence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    AFAIK the ones being updated are from ancient samples. ORC007 is the Mokrin sample IIRC. The rest should be Nuragic, Etruscan and Roman. Also the Viking I mentioned in this thread.
    Isn't ORC007 a Nuragic sample?


    ORC007; 1285-1127 BC; S’Orcu ‘e Tueri; Perdasdefogu, NUO; Nuragic II_LBA

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Isn't ORC007 a Nuragic sample?
    ORC007; 1285-1127 BC; S’Orcu ‘e Tueri; Perdasdefogu, NUO; Nuragic II_LBA
    You are correct. The three ORC's should be the Nuragic samples, if I am not mistaken again.

    Furthermore they added these:
    R474, Etruscan (700-600BCE): J-CTS6190

    R116, Roman (0-200CE): J-Z631

    R54, Abruzzo region (1280-1430CE): J-Y23094

    Along with the Viking from the recent Study.
    VK346, Viking (400-1100CE): J-Y36972


    It unfortunately seems that among the ancient samples only Mokrin is missing...


    Edited: (Cant really quote across forums and this was in Anthrogenica, so I did not quote the whole exchange:)
    According to Trojet's reply to Johane it falls:


    Johane:
    Trojet's analysis of the oldest J2b-L283 in Europe so far:

    "I analyzed the BAM file of the J2b from this paper: https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1...05.18.101337v1

    Mokrin necropolis, an Early Bronze Age (2,100-1,800 BC) Maros culture site in North Serbia

    He is J2b-L283 >> Z615+ (Z584- Z2505-): https://yfull.com/tree/J-Z615/

    Male in burial 163, according to the paper: "At the opposite end of the status spectrum, a woman from the burial 181 was very likely the mother of the male in burial 163 and both were buried with grave goods indicative of higher social status (30). Since the male individual was an adult at the time of death, it remains unclear whether he inherited or acquired his status."



    Trojet:
    Thanks for this dedicated J-L283 thread at Anthrogenica. I'll try to post important updates here as well.

    I also checked the Novel SNPs of the two modern J-Z615* samples. I only got negative results, so this ancient sample remains at J-Z615* and lived around 1000 years after this mutation formed (https://yfull.com/tree/J-Z615/).

    The downstream branch, J-Z597 (TMRCA 4400 ybp), looks pretty western Balkan, so it likely moved further west around the time this Mokrin sample lived. We already have I4331, dated ~3600 ybp, from southern Croatia which was J-Z597>Z2507>Y15058. And recently a BigY tester with origin from Krk, Croatia, tested Y146400+ FGC64027+ FGC64043-, which means he is splitting YFull's J-Y146400 branch:
    And since I can not find the sample on YFull I guess it has not been added yet.
    Last edited by Archetype0ne; 25-09-20 at 09:29.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    You are correct. The three ORC's should be the Nuragic samples, if I am not mistaken again.

    Furthermore they added these:
    R474, Etruscan (700-600BCE): J-CTS6190

    R116, Roman (0-200CE): J-Z631

    R54, Abruzzo region (1280-1430CE): J-Y23094

    Along with the Viking from the recent Study.
    VK346, Viking (400-1100CE): J-Y36972


    It unfortunately seems that among the ancient samples only Mokrin is missing...

    According to Trojet it falls:

    "The downstream branch, J-Z597 (TMRCA 4400 ybp), looks pretty western Balkan, so it likely moved further west around the time this Mokrin sample lived. We already have I4331, dated ~3600 ybp, from southern Croatia which was J-Z597>Z2507>Y15058. And recently a BigY tester with origin from Krk, Croatia, tested Y146400+ FGC64027+ FGC64043-, which means he is splitting YFull's J-Y146400 branch:



    "And since I can not find the sample/split on YFull I guess it has not been added yet.

    Yes, I4331 (1631-1521 calBCE ,Y15058) seems quite upstream to R474 Etruscan (700-600BCE, J-CTS6190).


    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y15058/


    Do you know why I4331 has not been added to YFull?


    @Trojet

    Is accurate that
    I4331 can be further assigned to J-Y15058>FT92472(xZ38241,BY48225) or at YFull’s J-Z38240 level?


    https://j2-m172.info/2018/02/y-snp-analysis-of-i4331-j2b2a-l283-bronze-age-croatia-mathieson-et-al-2018/


    J-Z38240

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z38240/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Yes, I4331 (1631-1521 calBCE ,Y15058) seems quite upstream to R474 Etruscan (700-600BCE, J-CTS6190).
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y15058/
    Do you know why I4331 has not been added to YFull?

    @Trojet
    Is accurate that
    I4331 can be further assigned to J-Y15058>FT92472(xZ38241,BY48225) or at YFull’s J-Z38240 level?

    https://j2-m172.info/2018/02/y-snp-analysis-of-i4331-j2b2a-l283-bronze-age-croatia-mathieson-et-al-2018/

    J-Z38240
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z38240/
    Yes, that's correct. I4331 remains at YFull's J-Z38240* level, as he is also negative for the newly discovered subclade, J-BY161223.

    It now seems YFull is adding ancient samples that aren't "shotgun sequenced" or not very high coverage, as is the case with the Nuragic/Sardinian samples. So I expect they will eventually add I4331 as well (or the samples from "The Genomic History of Southeastern Europe"). They may not add the Mokrin J-Z615* sample until the relevant paper is published (it's currently in pre-print).
    Y-DNA: J-L283
    Maternal Y-DNA: E-V13

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    Single males ran through my family for five generations! My father died young and i had no opportunity to ask him about our ancestors. Days ago i got my results - I belong to J-L283 paternal haplogroup.

    Thank you all for organizing and running things here; as a result i know myself more.

    Looking forward to making my contributions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    Maybe but from which direction did they come from? And they didn't come as just pure e-v13. If they came from the north/germany it is possible they had i1 too
    There is no way in hell E-V13 is from central Europe. All the ancient samples of E-V13 are autosomally southern European. ie: Neolithic farmer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron1981 View Post
    There is no way in hell E-V13 is from central Europe. All the ancient samples of E-V13 are autosomally southern European. ie: Neolithic farmer.
    We have barely any ancient E-V13 sample. And every sample in Southern Europe is mostly Sardinian-like, like Myceneans etc etc etc. The diversity of E-V13 is not in Balkans, the split likely happened somewhere in Eastern Central Europe. They were still mostly Neolithic Farmer.

  23. #548
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    04-03-18
    Posts
    523

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-A24070
    MtDNA haplogroup
    I1a1a

    Ethnic group
    Bædzænæg
    Country: Bosnia & Herzegovina



    Hmm, I didn't pay attention to these Nuragics. I knew one was related to modern Sardinians but not that these Nuragics are all basals unrelated to each other... ORC007 is YP91, ORC008 J-Z600*, ORC003 and I10553 are J-YP157, Nuragics have more basal diversity than the entire Albania/Balkans + V.Vanik/Mokrin aDNA..

    Mokrin result and modern spread shows that beginning with J-Z615* J-L283 was widespread. If it expanded from the Steppe what are these Nuragics doing there?? In any case it is clear J-Z615 arrived and spread around the (Western) Balkans.

  24. #549
    Regular Member Hawk's Avatar
    Join Date
    11-11-19
    Posts
    432

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-V13

    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    Hmm, I didn't pay attention to these Nuragics. I knew one was related to modern Sardinians but not that these Nuragics are all basals unrelated to each other... ORC007 is YP91, ORC008 J-Z600*, ORC003 and I10553 are J-YP157, Nuragics have more basal diversity than the entire Albania/Balkans + V.Vanik/Mokrin aDNA..

    Mokrin result and modern spread shows that beginning with J-Z615* J-L283 was widespread. If it expanded from the Steppe what are these Nuragics doing there?? In any case it is clear J-Z615 arrived and spread around the (Western) Balkans.
    Except for some very minor I2a subclades, (R1b, R1a majority) and some Q subclades none of the others are from the Steppes. Neither J2b2.

  25. #550
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    17-01-15
    Posts
    364

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J-L283

    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    Hmm, I didn't pay attention to these Nuragics. I knew one was related to modern Sardinians but not that these Nuragics are all basals unrelated to each other... ORC007 is YP91, ORC008 J-Z600*, ORC003 and I10553 are J-YP157, Nuragics have more basal diversity than the entire Albania/Balkans + V.Vanik/Mokrin aDNA..

    Mokrin result and modern spread shows that beginning with J-Z615* J-L283 was widespread. If it expanded from the Steppe what are these Nuragics doing there?? In any case it is clear J-Z615 arrived and spread around the (Western) Balkans.
    It seems you have trouble interpreting the YTree, again . ORC008 is not J-Z600*. He has no coverage for YP157 and Z585, but negative for Z615 (you can see this if you click "i"). So considering the other two samples, I think there is a good possibility he is J-YP157 too.

    For ORC007, I'm actually a bit surprised by YFull going with that call, due to low coverage. He has only one positive read for YP91 (which could be due to ancient DNA damage), with everything else at that level no coverage. Z600 and YP157 have no coverage either. (Unless they found he shares a Novel SNP with the French J-YP91* sample).

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