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Thread: J2b2-L283 (proto-illyrian)

  1. #551
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    It seems you have trouble interpreting the YTree, again . ORC008 is not J-Z600*. He has no coverage for YP157 and Z585, but negative for Z615 (you can see this if you click "i"). So considering the other two samples, I think there is a good possibility he is J-YP157 too.
    For ORC007, I'm actually a bit surprised by YFull going with that call, due to low coverage. He has only one positive read for YP91 (which could be due to ancient DNA damage), with everything else at that level no coverage. Z600 and YP157 have no coverage either. (Unless they found he shares a Novel SNP with the French J-YP91* sample).
    No, I do pay close attention to "i". My main point was: he is Z615-. This is where the major expansion begins. So ORC007 has only one read, but as you say it might be that he shares something with the French sample. YFull information now comes in incrementals that are separated by a month or so (updates) so I guess we'll have to wait a bit for that information. They started adding plenty of samples to YFull including some ambiguous quality samples (like one Italian E-V13 sample). I10553 and ORC003 might end up sharing some SNPs. I10553 also comes from a separate study but all samples are from Perdasdefogu. 4 out of 6 Nuragics from there are J-L283. So this site is of some interest for J-L283.

    ORC008 might be also YP113, there are some Sardinians in that clade, albeit unlike YP157 they seem to have much smaller TMRCA (they share 37 SNP's).

    You mentioned that there was one Romanian Geno 2.0 sample that was Z585- (or similar)?

    This way it looks like Z615 might have been present in the Slovenia-S.Hungary/Vojvodina range before spreading to the Balkans.


    Quote Originally Posted by Progon View Post
    Except for some very minor I2a subclades, (R1b, R1a majority) and some Q subclades none of the others are from the Steppes. Neither J2b2.
    Interestingly one might add N-P189.2, common in one Old Herzegovina clan Banjani and Pivljani. This hg was found in Botai culture, and subsequently in the Poltavka culture (R1b heavy) so this line also expanded with the proto-IE's.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Some Romanian J-L283's, based on NGS and STR matches of samples from studies with the NGS determined clades.

    1. J-L283>Z631>Y22894 (13) - 8 Basarab's from Sibiu, 1 Basarab from Gorj, 1 Piatra Niamt, 1 Ploiesti, 1 Romanian from Germany, 1 (Barbarii et al). This is one of proto-Romanian clusters, most common in Basarabs and found in 5 studies, albeit in no commercially tested Romanians (shows how poorly they are tested). We do know their dominant surname (Basarab).
    2. J-L283>Z631>??? (5) - 3 from Brasov, 2 from Dolj. Likely Z631, dys388=14 cluster, unknown sublclade below. It doesn't seem any identified clade is defined by 388=14 and these are not with identical STR's, 15/17, but they all share 388=14.
    3. J-L283>Y37121>Y85328 (2) - Romanian from Smeeni, also RO3 from Vrancea county (nearby).
    4. J-L283>Y20899 (2) - H44 Oradea, and one Romanian from Germany. Match most closely Hungarian from Budapest BuCa_026 17/17.
    5. J-L283>BY81991 (2)- Romania at YFull is in cluster with an Italian (American flag) but much closer to him are Bulgarians. Also probably no. 50 from Barbarii et al.
    6. J-L283>Z631>Y191359 (2) - With 2 Albanians. Also no. 160 from Ploiesti likely is Y191359.

    I know also there was one PH1602 from here.

  3. #553
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    No, I do pay close attention to "i". My main point was: he is Z615-. This is where the major expansion begins. So ORC007 has only one read, but as you say it might be that he shares something with the French sample. YFull information now comes in incrementals that are separated by a month or so (updates) so I guess we'll have to wait a bit for that information. They started adding plenty of samples to YFull including some ambiguous quality samples (like one Italian E-V13 sample).
    I10553 and ORC003 might end up sharing some SNPs. I10553 also comes from a separate study but all samples are from Perdasdefogu. 4 out of 6 Nuragics from there are J-L283. So this site is of some interest for J-L283.
    ORC008 might be also YP113, there are some Sardinians in that clade, albeit unlike YP157 they seem to have much smaller TMRCA (they share 37 SNP's.
    You mentioned that there was one Romanian Geno 2.0 sample that was Z585- (or similar)?
    This way it looks like Z615 might have been present in the Slovenia-S.Hungary/Vojvodina range before spreading to the Balkans.
    Well, I'm not sure what you meant, I just wanted to clarify that ORC008 is not J-Z600*.

    Yes, the location and timeframe of all these Nuragic J-L283 samples is the same. So considering the phylogenetic placement, I think ORC008 may well be J-YP157 too.
    And yes, there is a Romanian on Geno 2.0 that's tested L283+ and Z585- so he can be anywhere in between.

    I would agree in regards to J-Z615 expansion. For the expansion between J-Z622 and Z615, I think we need older aDNA. Otherwise, J-L283 itself did migrate from further east, going by YFull estimates sometime between 5700 ybp and EBA (or at J-Z622).

    EDIT: I see YFull has added KDC001, ~3800 ybp, MBA North Caucasus,~J-L283* (Z622? Z600- YP91-). There is also the modern Armenian J-L283*, and RISE408, LBA Armenia, J-L283+ (Z622? Z600- YP91?). They don't seem to share any Novel SNPs amongst themselves either.
    Last edited by Trojet; 01-10-20 at 17:26.

  4. #554
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    Some Romanian J-L283's, based on NGS and STR matches of samples from studies with the NGS determined clades.
    1. J-L283>Z631>Y22894 (13) - 8 Basarab's from Sibiu, 1 Basarab from Gorj, 1 Piatra Niamt, 1 Ploiesti, 1 Romanian from Germany, 1 (Barbarii et al). This is one of proto-Romanian clusters, most common in Basarabs and found in 5 studies, albeit in no commercially tested Romanians (shows how poorly they are tested). We do know their dominant surname (Basarab).
    2. J-L283>Z631>??? (5) - 3 from Brasov, 2 from Dolj. Likely Z631, dys388=14 cluster, unknown sublclade below. It doesn't seem any identified clade is defined by 388=14 and these are not with identical STR's, 15/17, but they all share 388=14.
    3. J-L283>Y37121>Y85328 (2) - Romanian from Smeeni, also RO3 from Vrancea county (nearby).
    4. J-L283>Y20899 (2) - H44 Oradea, and one Romanian from Germany. Match most closely Hungarian from Budapest BuCa_026 17/17.
    5. J-L283>BY81991 (2)- Romania at YFull is in cluster with an Italian (American flag) but much closer to him are Bulgarians. Also probably no. 50 from Barbarii et al.
    6. J-L283>Z631>Y191359 (2) - With 2 Albanians. Also no. 160 from Ploiesti likely is Y191359.
    I know also there was one PH1602 from here.
    1) J-Z631>Y22894 = "proto-Romanian"? Not sure what you mean by that, but STRs suggest this cluster is more diverse in the western Balkans. Its TMRCA seems to be no older than about 1000 ybp, so it could've migrated there fairly recently.

    4) I'm guessing you're basing this on DYS19=14. I would be very careful in classifying such haplotypes under J-Y20899 at low resolution. DYS19=14 has proven to appear in many different J-L283 branches. Though I've seen a couple of J-Y20899>PH1751 looking haplotypes in the region Romania/Hungary tested at higher resolution.
    Btw, for J-Y20899 the most interesting sample seems to be 330960. His paternal origin is from Italy (doesn't know anything more specific). He is tested Z1296+ Z1297-. At ~29/111 from J-Y20899 samples, he likely splits that level. 29/111 on average is ~2900 ybp, but hopefully he takes NGS at some point.

    Anyway, none of these J-L283 branches seem "native" to Romania to me, with the possible exception of J-BY81991. Yes, the American sample is with origin from Rome, Italy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    1) J-Z631>Y22894 = "proto-Romanian"? Not sure what you mean by that, but STRs suggest this cluster is more diverse in the western Balkans. Its TMRCA seems to be no older than about 1000 ybp, so it could've migrated there fairly recently.


    Anyway, none of these J-L283 branches seem "native" to Romania to me, with the possible exception of J-BY81991. Yes, the American sample is with origin from Rome, Italy.
    This is the only Basarab cluster found in two separate regions, the most common Basarab cluster, so likely this is the hg of the Basarab. Also it pops up in other studies. So it must be proto-Romanian because of commonality and the likely Basarab link. Though ofc proto-Romanian and "native to the territory of Romania" are two different things, and indeed proto-Romanians proper who at some point dwelled with proto-Albanians (due to shared loans) are not native to modern day Romania that is their language, and so most of these J-L283 are good candidates for proto-Romanians.

    For J-BY81991 check Bulgarian 575881 who is much closer to Romanian than Italian and shares some specific STR's for that clade (dys385b=14, dys464d=19, dys458=18).

    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    Btw, for J-Y20899 the most interesting sample seems to be 330960. His paternal origin is from Italy (doesn't know anything more specific). He is tested Z1296+ Z1297-. At ~29/111 from J-Y20899 samples, he likely splits that level. 29/111 on average is ~2900 ybp, but hopefully he takes NGS at some point.
    There are lots of mutations (8) which define the Y21045 and PH4679 levels (as the Sardinian has no STR's) and also many STR's.

    330960 is:
    DYS640 12→13 TRUE
    DYS537 11→12 FAIL
    DYS19 15→14 FAIL
    DYS510 19→18 FAIL
    DYS444 12→13 FAIL
    DYS557 16→17 TRUE
    DYS712 29→30 FAIL


    He either splits the Y21045 or he is Y21045-. He is "probably" positive for a few Y21045 level SNP's. Z38300 is defined by dys434=18, dys712=27, he fails on both, at the Y20899 level he has roughly half of defining STR's but considering the results for the Y21045/PH4679 level and above he should be Y20899-. GD is of secondary importance in comparison to defining STR's. He might also share something with the Sardinian.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    4) I'm guessing you're basing this on DYS19=14. I would be very careful in classifying such haplotypes under J-Y20899 at low resolution. DYS19=14 has proven to appear in many different J-L283 branches. Though I've seen a couple of J-Y20899>PH1751 looking haplotypes in the region Romania/Hungary tested at higher resolution.
    Of course it is the dys19=14. While it might pop up in other clades, this STR does define Z38300. Is there evidence any other clade is defined by dys19=14?

    BuCa_026 Budapest, Hungary [Hungarian] 12 24 14 10 14,17 12 12 11 28 16 16 19 10 13 17 17 9 23 14 12 21 9
    (I reduced H4 by 1)

    J-Y161916 is defined by 448=20, 439=11, 549=12 so he is Y161916-. Y20899 is defined by 635=22 (among others), so this sample might be Y20899-. Might be some J-Z38300*.

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    Classical Illyrians were heavily influenced by Danubian Urnfield culture, if not they were descendants of them. So, we should look for a possible candidate spreading from around Central Europe from MBA to LBA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    There are lots of mutations (8) which define the Y21045 and PH4679 levels (as the Sardinian has no STR's) and also many STR's.
    330960 is:
    DYS640 12→13 TRUE
    DYS537 11→12 FAIL
    DYS19 15→14 FAIL
    DYS510 19→18 FAIL
    DYS444 12→13 FAIL
    DYS557 16→17 TRUE
    DYS712 29→30 FAIL
    He either splits the Y21045 or he is Y21045-. He is "probably" positive for a few Y21045 level SNP's. Z38300 is defined by dys434=18, dys712=27, he fails on both, at the Y20899 level he has roughly half of defining STR's but considering the results for the Y21045/PH4679 level and above he should be Y20899-. GD is of secondary importance in comparison to defining STR's. He might also share something with the Sardinian.
    He is at least "fully developed" J-Y21045. His SNP test result (Z1296+ Z1297-) in combination with DYS650=14 seals it... True, he has DYS19=15, but he has likely backmutated there. You put too much trust in STR mutations, you know well they are prone to backmutations.
    I guess you mean DYS534 and DYS712. Anyway, they don't seem to be predictors for J-Z38300 here (I know you're using YFull's STR mutations, but I have data that contradicts this...)

    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    at the Y20899 level he has roughly half of defining STR's but considering the results for the Y21045/PH4679 level and above he should be Y20899-
    All the defining STRs for J-Y20899 are for the currently fully developed samples (i.e. the TMRCA of J-Y85522 and J-PH1751). So if he is hypothetically splitting the J-Y20899 level, of course he wouldn't have all the currently defining STRs. He has one key value which is DYS540=13, while everyone above J-Y20899 has 12, including other Z638 branches. And considering that within J-Y21045 his STRs are closer to J-Y20899 samples, I still think it's more likely he is splitting this subclade.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    Of course it is the dys19=14. While it might pop up in other clades, this STR does define Z38300. Is there evidence any other clade is defined by dys19=14?
    BuCa_026 Budapest, Hungary [Hungarian] 12 24 14 10 14,17 12 12 11 28 16 16 19 10 13 17 17 9 23 14 12 21 9
    (I reduced H4 by 1)
    J-Y161916 is defined by 448=20, 439=11, 549=12 so he is Y161916-. Y20899 is defined by 635=22 (among others), so this sample might be Y20899-. Might be some J-Z38300*.
    DYS19=14 starts with at least J-PH4679. Sardinians don't have any STRs as you pointed out, so we don't know what they have on DYS19.

    My point was that you can't reliably predict it based on DYS19=14 with limited STRs. Look at J-M241 project, DYS19=14 appears in many different L283 branches. After all, it's one mutation from 15. And so without higher resolution or SNP testing, that Hungarian haplotype can fit in many different L283 branches..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Progon View Post
    Classical Illyrians were heavily influenced by Danubian Urnfield culture, if not they were descendants of them. So, we should look for a possible candidate spreading from around Central Europe from MBA to LBA.
    It is very difficult to place who belongs to what without more ancient y dna, which y dna have been found in Urnfield culture so far?

    According to modern y dna j2b l283 is more northern than j2as and j1s so it fits with "Urnfield culture" regionally however Urnfield culture was widespread even further north where j2b l283 is missing.

    As of now v13 makes more sense for Urnfield, however the spread of v13 in southern places like Greece maybe also rules it out because Urnfield didn't have much contact with Greece. Unless, v13 spread much later in Greece through post Urnfield mixed balkans

    Maybe a map of r1b Z2103 across the balkans could also help identify the Urnfield culture because this is another major clade in balkans. Or it could be that they were wiped out and only left small traces of i2a2, r1b L51, pre-slavic r1a or even some i1. Some of the smaller clades in balkans today

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    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    It is very difficult to place who belongs to what without more ancient y dna, which y dna have been found in Urnfield culture so far?

    According to modern y dna j2b l283 is more northern than j2as and j1s so it fits with "Urnfield culture" regionally however Urnfield culture was widespread even further north where j2b l283 is missing.

    As of now v13 makes more sense for Urnfield, however the spread of v13 in southern places like Greece maybe also rules it out because Urnfield didn't have much contact with Greece. Unless, v13 spread much later in Greece through post Urnfield mixed balkans

    Maybe a map of r1b Z2103 across the balkans could also help identify the Urnfield culture because this is another major clade in balkans. Or it could be that they were wiped out and only left small traces of i2a2, r1b L51, pre-slavic r1a or even some i1. Some of the smaller clades in balkans today
    This is because J-L283 is not urmfield culture. Its balkan / west medditernean
    But during roman times spread out. Romans didnt have a large campaign in scandanavia which is probably why there its almost non existant but romans did also use mercenaries at the time. Which is why its probably spread out so much.
    R1b i imagine is definitely urmfield culture.

    J L283 culture - printed cardium culture.
    And hybrid balcanic cultures


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    Is it possible that J-L283 is a trojan haplogroup?
    1600 BC its in the balkans

    Sardinia J-L283
    1200BC
    Same time of trojan war

    The J-L283 samples are found in Cagliari which is the territory if the ilienses tribes.


    The trojans were related to thracians

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilienses

    A fourth component part of the population was the army of Iolaus, consisting of Thespians and men from Attica, which put in at Sardinia and founded Olbia [...] Be this as it may, there are still today places in Sardinia called Iolaia, and Iolaus is worshipped by the inhabitants.[...] When Troy was taken, among those Trojans who fled were those who escaped with Aeneas. A part of them, carried from their course by winds, reached Sardinia and intermarried with the Greeks already settled there (Iolaes). But the non-Greek element (Balares ?) were prevented from coming to blows with the Greeks and Trojans, for the two enemies were evenly matched in all warlike equipment, while the river Thorsus (Tirso), flowing between their territories, made both equally afraid to cross it.


    In what was once their territory, very important are the findings of Mycenaean artifacts, confirming the wealth of exchanges between these two ancient populations. Of particular interest are also the Oxhide ingot, which perhaps came from Cyprus and was discovered in various locations, including the Cagliari area, in the province of Ogliastra and other central areas. Between 1300 and 1200 BC in central-southern Sardinia was produced a kind of gray pottery also called "gray Sardinian"; remains of this type of pottery have been found in Kommos, Crete, and at Cannatello near Agrigento, Sicily.[11]

    Troy was founded about 3000bc

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    Is it possible that J-L283 is a trojan haplogroup?
    1600 BC its in the balkans

    Sardinia J-L283
    1200BC
    Same time of trojan war

    The J-L283 samples are found in Cagliari which is the territory if the ilienses tribes.


    The trojans were related to thracians

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilienses








    Troy was founded about 3000bc

    level 6 of Troy , when the Trojan war was .......was calculated at 1185BC , not 1600BC
    Fathers mtdna ... T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ... K1a4o
    Mum paternal line ... R1b-S8172
    Grandmum paternal side ... I1d1-P109
    Wife paternal line ... R1a-Z282

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    level 6 of Troy , when the Trojan war was .......was calculated at 1185BC , not 1600BC

    Trojans likely have some origins from europe. And stem from proto dardanians from the balkans.

    Trojan war was about that time
    The city if troy has been around since abt 3000BC

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    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dardanians_(Trojan)
    The Dardanoi (Greek: Δάρδανοι; its
    anglicized modern terms being Dardanians or Dardans) in classical writings were either the same people as, or a people closely related to, the Trojans, an ancient people of the Troad, located in northwestern Anatolia. The Dardanoi derived their name from Dardanus, the mythical founder of Dardania, an ancient city in the Troad. Rule of the Troad was divided between Dardania and Troy. Homer makes a clear distinction between the Trojans and the Dardanoi.[1]

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dardani
    The Dardani (/ˈdɑːrdənaɪ/; Ancient Greek: Δαρδάνιοι, Δάρδανοι; Latin: Dardani) were a Paleo-Balkan tribe, which lived in a region which was named Dardania after their settlement there.[1][2] The eastern parts of the region were at the Thraco-Illyrian contact zone. In archaeological research, Illyrian names are predominant in western Dardania (present-day Kosovo), while Thracian names are mostly found in eastern Dardania (present-day south-eastern Serbia). Thracian names are absent in western Dardania; some Illyrian names appear in the eastern parts. Thus, their identification as either an Illyrian or Thracian tribe has been a subject of debate; the ethnolinguistic relationship between the two groups being largely uncertain and debated itself as well.[3][4] The correspondence of Illyrian names - including those of the ruling elite - in Dardania with those of the southern Illyrians suggests a "thracianization" of parts of Dardania.[5][6] Strabo in his geographica mentions them as one of the three strongest Illyrian peoples, the other two being the Ardiaei and Autariatae.[7][8]
    If albanians partly decend from dardani maybe theres a connection.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    Trojans likely have some origins from europe. And stem from proto dardanians from the balkans.

    Trojan war was about that time
    The city if troy has been around since abt 3000BC

    There are 9 levels of troy from as you state, 3000BC ish to the Roman occupation which is level 9b .....................it has already been proved that level 6 circa 1185bc is the only one that showed that a war took place...............
    Level 5 showed major earthquake damage to the city...................the assumption was , after the earthquake the walls of level 6 where not fully fixed when raiders/sea peoples/ greeks whoever attacked an already damaged city

    yes there where dardanians living in the Troad area of Anatolia, south side of the ancient Thracian city of Sestos ................are these dardanians the same as kosovo dardanian ....I have no idea

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    Level 6 shows extremely small number of arrowheads and other war implements for being a 10 year old major war. A raid perhaps, a major 10 year war no.

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    level 6 of Troy , when the Trojan war was .......was calculated at 1185BC , not 1600BC
    Dna is needed from Troy......


    Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    Level 6 shows extremely small number of arrowheads and other war implements for being a 10 year old major war. A raid perhaps, a major 10 year war no.

    very much doubt it lasted 10 years....maybe it was 10 months

    The walled part of Troy was only the citadel , which housed the royals/chieftains etc.........the major town was surrounded by wooden walls with ditches etc outside the Citadel,....arrow heads and other war stuff where found in the fields outside of the citadel

    I have not checked on the latest news from Troy for over 1 year ..............but check the latest news on google.........

    The questions seems to be if dardanians of the Troad where the same as the Dardanians of modern Kosovo ............as I said, I do not know, there is a big possibility they are the same ethnic people

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    Country: United States



    Additional samples should be on the way from Ezero Culture (Bulgaria) and parts of Aegean region and parts of Anatolia (western Turkey) that will hopefully shed additional light on migration of L283. It looks like it moved from the north to the south at this point, due to 4100 year old L283 Z615 sample found in Mokrin, Serbia. Mokrin=Maros=Eastern Bell Beaker associated culture. So maybe the Proto Illyrians were some sort of fusion of L283 from the north who mixed with R1b Z2103 that was already there or recent arrivals as well (maybe Vucedol culture?). Obviously this is all conjecture, so my fingers are crossed that upcoming ancient samples from the Balkans or near vicinity will yield some L283 and shed some additional light on its movement in the region and, hopefully, how it got there in the first place.

  19. #569
    Regular Member torzio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Polska View Post
    Additional samples should be on the way from Ezero Culture (Bulgaria) and parts of Aegean region and parts of Anatolia (western Turkey) that will hopefully shed additional light on migration of L283. It looks like it moved from the north to the south at this point, due to 4100 year old L283 Z615 sample found in Mokrin, Serbia. Mokrin=Maros=Eastern Bell Beaker associated culture. So maybe the Proto Illyrians were some sort of fusion of L283 from the north who mixed with R1b Z2103 that was already there or recent arrivals as well (maybe Vucedol culture?). Obviously this is all conjecture, so my fingers are crossed that upcoming ancient samples from the Balkans or near vicinity will yield some L283 and shed some additional light on its movement in the region and, hopefully, how it got there in the first place.
    Serbia was never illyrian , it was thracian mostly and dardanian.......it became Moesia later on , one of the 4 major thracian groups, odrysian,https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odrysian_kingdom ...... getae and dacians are the other groups

  20. #570
    Regular Member Wanderer's Avatar
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J-L283 (z627)

    Ethnic group
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    Country: Algeria



    Found some page showing large extensive data of ancient DNA samples.
    Pretty cool. Has a map and spreadsheets with lots of information.

    www.indo-european.eu/ancient-dna/

    For the map here is a link but you can find it through navigation.
    The spreadsheet is interesting. Theres more ancient samples of J-L283 then I didn't know about that arent on Yfull. Or at least I didn't notice were ancient.

  21. #571
    Regular Member Polska's Avatar
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2b L283 PH1602

    Country: United States



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    Serbia was never illyrian , it was thracian mostly and dardanian.......it became Moesia later on , one of the 4 major thracian groups, odrysian,https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odrysian_kingdom ...... getae and dacians are the other groups
    Sure. All I’m saying is that the L283 branches associated with Illyrians descend from L283 Z597 and downstream branches (see L283 Z38240 ancient Illyrian/Dalmatian from 1600BC). L283 Z615 Serbian/Mokrin sample is the oldest L283 ever discovered, is upstream from Z597, and comes from further inland, so it plots as though ancient Illyrians, in part, arrived in Balkans from a north to south vector. This is in the context of L283 being a Proto Illyrian haplogroup.
    Last edited by Polska; 08-11-20 at 01:28.

  22. #572
    Regular Member Wanderer's Avatar
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Country: Algeria



    I noticed that there was a viking
    Kit from öland sweden which is an island next not too far from denmark and slavic / northern balkan countries.

    Viking Y36972 :
    z631 -> z1043 -> z84242-> Y36972
    about 1000 AD

    Then there is also a german:
    z631 -> z1043
    About 1300 ad

    Roma sample -> z631 is about 200BC - 0

    Talking about the age of the remains. Not tmrca estimation

    Im wondering if early z631 actually migrated toward the baltics/lower scandanavia from the around the central medditernean and adriatic. Which is probably why you end up with J-L283 in various places like germanic and slavic countries like germany, croatia, british ( danish invaders), russia. May explain russian and spanish kit J-L283 common lineage and why theres a good handful of spanish J-L283 meanwhile not the case for french which borders spain and germany and italy.

    But strangley enough J-L283 is extra rare. In ireland or france. Theres a good handful of british J-L283, but not so in Ireland. And france is huge. Which makes me wonder if french paternal lineages are mostly celtic and scando paternal lineages are very rare in france. It seems obvious maybe but i heard that normans invaded france before so I thought there would be more j-L283. The only french J-L283 are also northern french and its very few. One borders belgium. I need to read more admittingly i don't know so much about france history dealing with vikings tho.

    Edit there is one southern french but its close to spain. Theres none in central france or central western france

    There is a arguement for bottleneck effect in sardinia because its an isolated island. Weirdly theres a good handful of british J-L283 and only about 1 or 2 irish J-L283. Which is right next to britain. Both are large islands. Very close to each other.
    J-L283 in greeks is also very rare
    And to me greeks with J-L283 actually come from albanians or other balkanic peoples.

  23. #573
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dardanians_(Trojan)



    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dardani


    If albanians partly decend from dardani maybe theres a connection.
    I have had this thought before which may explain the greater amount of j2b l283 in north albanians (dardani were usually north east of illyrians geographically although they were classified as an illyrian tribe anyway and had mostly illyrian & some thracian names). There was also an influx of kosovar albanians into north albania post communism

  24. #574
    Regular Member torzio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Polska View Post
    Sure. All I’m saying is that the L283 branches associated with Illyrians descend from L283 Z597 and downstream branches (see L283 Z38240 ancient Illyrian/Dalmatian from 1600BC). L283 Z615 Serbian/Mokrin sample is the oldest L283 ever discovered, is upstream from Z597, and comes from further inland, so it plots as though ancient Illyrians, in part, arrived in Balkans from a north to south vector. This is in the context of L283 being a Proto Illyrian haplogroup.

    Yes, Illyrians have steppe in their mix and no anatolian
    Thracians have steppe and anatolian
    Dardanians have anatolian
    Greeks have anatolian

    Are you saying L283 has steppe and anatolian or just steppe ?

  25. #575
    Regular Member torzio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    very much doubt it lasted 10 years....maybe it was 10 months

    The walled part of Troy was only the citadel , which housed the royals/chieftains etc.........the major town was surrounded by wooden walls with ditches etc outside the Citadel,....arrow heads and other war stuff where found in the fields outside of the citadel

    I have not checked on the latest news from Troy for over 1 year ..............but check the latest news on google.........

    The questions seems to be if dardanians of the Troad where the same as the Dardanians of modern Kosovo ............as I said, I do not know, there is a big possibility they are the same ethnic people

    latest I found on Troy

    The Lost City of Troy | Full Documentary | TRACKS

    173,351 views
    •Feb 29, 2020

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSSjZ5_Pi04

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